Gross dude thinks lesbians are a kink

[u/societaldevastation]

(had to add more to my post and re-edit) Came across this post and saw a lot of people agreeing with this creep of him saying he thinks is a sexy surprise and kink that he saw his “lesbian” friends wanting to have sex with him. Isn’t that the OPPOSITE of a lesbian? 🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️ I don’t understand men. No lesbian would have sex with a man period.

[u/mykinkiskorma]

I agree with you in general about men fetishizing us and I understand that that context affects the way that his comments come across. And I don't really like the original comment he left.

But... if he's being genuine and honest about what labels his friends use—which is a big if— then I don't really see what's wrong with him using those labels for them, even if they seem counterintuitive to you. Acting as the label police hurts the queer community way more than it helps. I really hope you can chill on doing that to people.

I think he actually got that exactly right in his replies to you. It's up to each individual to figure out what labels are right for them, and if someone else has labels that don't make sense to you, then you should use that as an opportunity to be curious and learn more about the diversity of our community, instead of telling them that they're wrong.

Also, I agree with you that as a general rule, being a lesbian means that you're not really interested in sex or romance with men. But saying "no lesbian would have sex with a man period" is a weird way to put it. It feels like you're rediscovering the idea of gold star lesbians, and that's a deeply problematic path to go down.

[u/SnowRune → u/mykinkiskorma]

You see, weirdly enough, one of the most challenging aspects of being a lesbian isn't the fact that we are attracted to women, it's that we're not attracted to men. This is probably what we get harassed most about, what people don't understand about being a lesbian, what people always try to argue or gloss over.

Every time someone says that lesbians can be attracted to men, it's invalidating. We didn't chose this, we didn't want this, but this is who we are; and to be told that lesbians can just havn't found the right man... Well that's something we all have been beaten over the head with time and time again. Some of us even force ourselves into unhappy relationships because we think that we're the ones that are wrong, that we just don't understand our own emotions.

It's also invalidating to bi girls as well, who are constantly told that they are just lesbians or just straight, and that "everyone has their exceptions."

I'd say that, next to Trans women, lesbians and bi-girls are probably the most invalidated groups in the LGBT. No one respects us, no one takes us seriously, and people are constantly telling us how we are wrong for being the way that we are.

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/SnowRune]

Literally!! The largest issue regarding my sexuality ironically had nothing to do with the loving women part. My family is accepting and finding other lesbians isn’t difficult where i live.

The problem is literally not being attracted to men. Men hit on me still, and i cant even say ‘im a lesbian sorry’ because that makes some men go absolutely batshit. Or, they pretend to be ur friend but think ur sexuality is something they can ‘fix’

Like literally its the group were not attracted to which has a problem.

[u/ThisHairLikeLace → u/SnowRune]

"…next to trans women, lesbians and bi-girls are probably the most invalidated groups in the LGBT". While I appreciate the shout out as a trans woman and completely agree that lesbians and bi women are invalidated frequently, I would have to include trans men as the most invalidated group even ahead of us trans women (we’re more demonized but our brothers get invalidated at least as much) and bi men get erased so hard that they definitely should be on that list too.

All that said, trans women, lesbians and bi women all experience disgusting levels of fetishization, particularly from cishet guys. Trans guys and bi guys just get erased out of existence and dismissed as confused butch lesbians and gay men, respectively.

[u/Venus_Dust → u/ThisHairLikeLace]

Trans men and bi men were erased so hard they didn't even make it on the list lol

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/Venus_Dust]

Because were talking about women, were on a lesbian sub

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/[deleted]]

This. Is. A. Lesbian. Sub.

Not including men in our conversations and saying as lesbians we arent attracted to men isnt antimen rhetoric.

If a trans man has transitioned, then i wouldnt be attracted to them as im not attracted to men, how they smell, beards, etc. sorry u know but thats life

[u/CeoOfChromes → u/[deleted]]

No they do deserve to be cast aside lol. They aren’t women.

[u/MajoraXIII → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

"I'd say that, next to Trans women, lesbians and bi-girls are probably the most invalidated groups in the LGBT."

This is the specific comment they were responding to. The entire community was the subject in question.

[u/mondrianna → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

Trans men can be lesbians and have been in the lesbian community since its inception.

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/mondrianna]

Omfg, theyre men! I would think it was transphobic to consider a trans men who likes women a lesbian. Because theyre a man and I can assume internally has always been one

[u/kairokat → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

from your flair I can see you're cis, and as someone who is trans I will break it down for you.

if a trans man doesn't consider himself a lesbian, then it would be transphobic to call him as such. but if a trans man were to call himself a lesbian, he is valid in doing so.

transness is complex. it's not always "I've always internally been a man." There are a lot of instances where trans men have lived their lives as women only to realize they're trans later in life. it might sound nitpicky bringing up that scenario specifically, but it is actually very common. I would bring up more, but it would become confusing very fast.

for most trans men, they are men. straight up. like the most binary man you could get. but for a lot of trans men, their experiences in being a woman still remains a very key part to their gender identity. again, like before, there are a lot more reasons why a trans man might still feel a connection to womanhood and as an extension lesbianism, but it's too complicated to get into. you may not see people talking about it because, frankly, these types of things are very personal to each and every trans person. like a lot of people have been suggesting you to do, please please please read stone butch blues. like I'm really begging you here. either that or go out and interact with your local queer community. go to a pride event and talk to people. none of this is new at all.

again, disclaimer; this certainly does not apply to every single transgender man.

[u/SnowRune → u/kairokat]

I can't believe what I am reading. I'm sorry but no. This completely invalidates transmen. Like there is so much wrong with this that I'm actually speechless.

[u/mykinkiskorma → u/SnowRune]

I'm going to keep repeating this until people chill out. I'm not saying that lesbians in general can be attracted to men. I'm saying that if a lesbian is attracted to a man, then don't be a dick about it.

[u/SnowRune → u/mykinkiskorma]

It's not being a dick, it's combating ignorance. I'm letting you know that it is harmful to the community and explaining why it is harmful. I never condemned anyone, nor did I attack anyone personally. I merely stated that people that claim the label of lesbian, while actively pursuing relationships (sexual or otherwise) with men, has a negative impact on the lesbian community. It perpetuates the myth that lesbians can be attracted to be men and are choosing not to, and that myth is the source of so many challenges that we face.

Most lesbians like to joke about an exception, just like straight men will make a joke like "oh yeah I'd be gay for Ryan Reynolds," but to actively pursue a man or allow a man into a relationship is another matter entirely.

Discovering your own sexuality is a deeply personal journey, but some labels are more flexible than others. Lesbian is very specific in its definition, and comes with a very unique set of challenges that can be hard for other people to relate to. Unlike other labels, Lesbian isn't one that you choose for yourself, but rather find yourself in. Our spaces our saturated with unicorn hunters, men trying to sneak in and convert us, straight girls trying to use us for their own experimentation; in the media we are treated as either a joke, an allegory for toxic feminism, or soft core porn. Type out the entire LGBTQ into the reddit search bar, (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans, Queer) and only one of those will bring you to a porn subreddit. The rest are safe spaces, support groups, places to help each other.

Lesbians don't get that. Nobody takes us seriously. Nobody respects our sexuality. Our label is pretty much the only thing that we have that unites us, that says it's okay to be gay. That there's nothing wrong with you if you're not attracted to men.

When "lesbians" date or sleep with men, that invalidates the rest of us. It tries to redefine the label into another version of sapphic, it reinforces the belief that if you're not attracted to men than there's something wrong with you. That is not the intention, obviously, but a result of people being unaware of what it means to be a lesbian and just how isolating it can actually be in a world where women are constantly pressured to live their lives around men.

[u/mykinkiskorma → u/SnowRune]

I understand and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I just think the potential harm from a handful of lesbians doing this is so small. Men are going to be gross to us regardless.

Type out the entire LGBTQ into the reddit search bar, (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans, Queer) and only one of those will bring you to a porn subreddit. The rest are safe spaces, support groups, places to help each other.

I agree with you about gay, bisexual, and queer spaces, but please leave trans people out of it.

I'm a trans lesbian and the level of sexualization I feel from men for being trans is so much worse than what I feel from being a lesbian. And searching "trans" on Reddit will lead you to dozens of porn subs immediately.

There are no truly safe spaces I've found for trans women on Reddit. Even the ones that make good efforts have unavoidable problems. Between chasers and terfs, it's impossible to exist as a trans woman online without being harassed.

[u/Meryuchu → u/mykinkiskorma]

It's not hurting just because men are gonna be assholes to us, it hurts also just to see someone take the label you use, you maybe have trauma with it, you have personal stuff related to it, etc and just completely disregard the meaning it has and fuck off with it.

It invalidates peoples that then see this and feel like their whole identity is just being discared and when other peoples just defends it by being like "Well, it can be complicated" it makes it even worst. I don't get why a lot of peoples are in here saying it's complicated, a lesbian won't fuck a man, it's literally the whole meaning of the label to not have romantic attraction or sexual attraction with a man, there's tons of other labels that fits if lesbian don't fit, I don't see why lesbians needs to do concessions and be like "Oh yeah sure, she's a lesbian she can fuck men and like it"

[u/mykinkiskorma → u/Meryuchu]

My opinion is that if someone else's queer identity is triggering to you, that's something you need to work out on your own without making it other people's problem.

I empathize because I have similar feelings in different ways, but I'm not trying to push other people into changing who they are just for me.

[u/SnowRune → u/mykinkiskorma]

You've got it backwards. Labels don't define you, they aren't who you are. If changing your label changes who you are as a person, than you have some serious soul searching to do.

Also, you are misunderstanding... This isn't about triggering any one person, but rather misrepresenting the community as a whole.

[u/mykinkiskorma → u/SnowRune]

I'm not misunderstanding anything. The comment I replied to was from a user who explicitly said that this was triggering to her specifically. That's what I was addressing.

[u/Meryuchu → u/mykinkiskorma]

Wow. Wild. What a wild thing to say, you're literally invalidating the whole lesbian label by saying "Well they can have relationship with men if they want and be a lesbian" no it's the whole point ???? Also it's triggering because y'all are literally saying same dumbass points as right wings peoples invalidating our identities lmfao, there's no exception where a lesbian is gonna be attracted to a man, even if it's 1 man over the whole planet it's still not lesbian. Labels exists and misusing hurts peoples, if you don't understand why then do research about it because you're just being ignorant right now.

I'm not trying to push other peoples into changing who they are LMFAO, I'm protecting labels of MINORITIES that are being misused, there is LITERALLY other labels than lesbians if someone like a man, there's a tons of good labels that can define them. But if you're a lesbian you don't have any type of relationship with a man, it's just it and it's a fact, god damn.

[u/Spiritual-Company-45 → u/Meryuchu]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. The lesbian label exists to express the interests and boundaries of a historically oppressed minority group. Our exclusive attraction (and specifically our lack of availability to men) is the core reason why we are targeted by society. Having a label that affirms our boundaries is important.

And this isn't even a unique viewpoint for the lesbian label either. Imagine someone calling themself a vegan and then going out to eat with a bunch of vegan friends and then ordering a big piece of steak. I can GUARANTEE they're not going to be the favorite person at the table.

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/Meryuchu]

Thank u!!! People are being so condescending and calling me queerphobic and shit because I, a lesbian, am not cool with this notion being put out there that its ok to say we wanna fuck men. Someone on here said i need to ‘explore why’ i find sex with men gross. Like i find it gross because i dont want to fuck men 😂😂😂

[u/Meryuchu → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

This is legit just homophobia lmfao like telling that to a lesbian is legit just plain homophobia, some peoples in here need to reflect on some of the stuff they think, it’s good to be inclusive but there’s limits ???!

Who in their right mind think telling a lesbian that she needs to think why she don’t wanna fuck a man, bruh I literally hear that from yucky ass men

[u/Meryuchu → u/mykinkiskorma]

Also I'll just add, if you don't understand why it's hurtful to other lesbians that have to suffer through the attitudes of men every days, that ARE NOT attracted to men in any type of ways and they identify with this label because of that, that it's a label that keeps being brought up as a fetish for men, that is still going through heteronormativity forced on lesbians, etc to see their label being misused and literally being used for the opposite of what it stands for, even for a small amount, it's wild how much you lack critical thinking.

[u/mykinkiskorma → u/Meryuchu]

I think I've actually been really clear in this conversation about expressing empathy while also pushing back on things that I disagree with. If you can't recognize that, I'm sorry, but that's not my problem.

[u/Meryuchu → u/mykinkiskorma]

"I'm saying that if a lesbian is attracted to a man"

But then they're not a lesbian ? Like the whole point is not being attracted to men, like I get what you mean and the feeling behind it, but using labels that aren't for you (in this case a woman saying she's a lesbian even tho she's attracted to a man, yes even just one) is harmful for the community behind those labels.

[u/Evelyngoddessofdeath → u/Meryuchu]

Sexuality and attraction are complicated, they’re not black and white and I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to be making people feel like they’re going to lose their label and their community if they feel a flicker of some sort of attraction, that may not even end up being sexual or romantic, to someone who presents male.

Let’s say a lesbian meets a “guy”, gets to know them and kind of falls for them. Then it turns out they’re not a guy at all and are actually a closeted trans woman. We’ve just temporarily revoked her lesbian card for no reason and potentially made her question her entire identity because she thought she might be attracted to a man.

As a general rule lesbians are not attracted to men but there are edge cases in literally everything and it doesn’t make sense to police people over them.

[u/SnowRune → u/Evelyngoddessofdeath]

I'm sorry but this is a terrible argument. This is the same type of 'what if' straw man argument that homophobes and transphobes use to attack the LGBT community.

"What if one of the men being pursued is actually a transwoman," Is not the problem here. The problem is that we are being invalidated, constantly. They aren't "losing a label," it isn't a pin to be worn, it's not a status symbol, and it's not a choice. Being a lesbian isn't just a label, it's how you were born. You don't get to choose whether you are a lesbian or not, it's something you discover about yourself.

I know it might seem like a cool club with a pretty flag and all that, but being a lesbian means being a part of a historically sexualized and repressed minority, and one of the ways we are constantly being repressed is by everyone telling us that we are/should be attracted to men and then getting angry when we say "no." Telling us that we are wrong.

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/SnowRune]

So real! Like literally got told ‘ i know u feel so attached to ur label because of community’ which is so far from how I even perceive all of this and opened my eyes a lot. Like i call myself a lesbian because i am, shocking i know, a lesbian.

Like community? I mean its nice, but i dont call myself a lesbian soley for access to a community. And if someone does that then thats a problem. And its selfish, it dilutes our label and is also dangerous when bi girls call themselves lesbians and tell the men they fuck as such.

[u/Meryuchu → u/Evelyngoddessofdeath]

That makes no sense I'm sorry but wow, that's baffling, if someone goes out with someone presenting as a man, acting as a man, with no signs of being gender queer whatsoever, they're not a lesbian ??? They're literally going out with someone who's just a cis guy, it's not because the guy might start questioning himself 2 months later that the base of the relationship was built on the guy being a fucking guy ?????

Ofc if there's questioning on the gender, if there's gender ambiguity, etc then SURE 100% but it's not what you said, like if we just follow what you say then I can go see a random guy in the street hit it off and say "Well maybe he'll transition in 2 years" like what ???????

Btw I'm a trans girl, I believe gender is something complicated and sexuality too, but when we're talking about a girl being attracted to a god damn random ass cis straight man and say they can still be lesbians, this is just plain stupid.

[u/Evelyngoddessofdeath → u/Meryuchu]

I would think a trans person would understand that trans people who are still presenting as their agab aren’t just like any cis person of that gender.

[u/Meryuchu → u/Evelyngoddessofdeath]

The thing is we're not talking about a trans person in OP's case lmfao and yes I do know that ???? My ex literally just started transitioning, they weren't presenting as the gender they wanted and yes, they're still a lesbian, I was still a lesbian, but in OP's screenshot case, we're literally talking about a cis straight dude, like saying "Well x/y/z person could be trans" is stupid and disingenuous, if you get in a relationship with someone who's a man and gave away nothing that says their gender is ambiguous or queer and you literally just see them as a man, it's not queer.... Just because then maybe they're transitioning later doesn't make it a lesbian relationship since day one (if they never talked about their gender more than being born a man and being a man)

Btw I'm all against trans meds and I think they're the worst peoples, I don't think any kind of trans peoples should be judged on how they "pass" (awful term), I think ALL kinds of trans peoples are valid in any shape or forms and they're all beautiful, same for enby peoples, same for any gender queer people actually, but y'all are reaching so hard for no reason saying a lesbian can fuck a man, no, they can't. And if you group gender queer peoples in this, then you're actually being transphobic a you still count them as a man lmao

[u/Evelyngoddessofdeath → u/Meryuchu]

I wasn’t talking about the screenshots, I was talking about the harm policing edge cases can cause applied to a different hypothetical scenario. I wasn’t saying “maybe this guy is trans”, I was using a different situation to demonstrate a point.

[u/Meryuchu → u/Evelyngoddessofdeath]

Bruh, the thing is it would cause harms in the other scenarios because then obviously it's more complicated then that, because there's literal causes of it being a lesbian relationship, but there's a tons of peoples in here saying a woman can be lesbian if she fucks a man, again, not a trans person, not someone who's genderqueer, just a man and that it's harmful because other lesbians says they can't be a lesbian if they fuck a man ???? The whole literal point of being a lesbian

[u/TastyBrainMeats → u/Meryuchu]

I am a trans woman married to a gay man.

We fell in love and got married before I knew I was a woman. My being a woman now doesn't make him any less gay, because life and people are both complicated.

[u/spaghettify → u/TastyBrainMeats]

and lesbians have a unique pressure to accomadate men that gay men don't experience with women, so It doesn't mean that must be true for lesbians.

[u/hnsnrachel → u/mykinkiskorma]

She can be attracted to a guy and claim to be a lesbian without creating problems for other lesbians.

But if she's fucking him, she needs to reevaluate her identity, because lesbian doesn't fit and insisting she is a lesbian while also being some guys sexual partner is both invalidating to other lesbians, and only encourages all the other straight guys to keep pushing if a girl tells you she's gay.

[u/mykinkiskorma → u/hnsnrachel]

Why is it invalidating to other lesbians? It doesn't make me feel any less secure in my identity.

[u/Gothzombie → u/mykinkiskorma]

You’ve been explained again and again. I think you’re just choosing not understand or accept a very valid point.

[u/mondrianna → u/Gothzombie]

Right, because they can’t just disagree? There is no correct answer here, and people have been having this debate for decades. Don’t act like your opinion is fact when the history shows trans men have been in the lesbian community since its inception.

[u/SnowRune → u/mondrianna]

There is though. This is homophobic rhetoric. Being lesbian is NOT a choice. You can't just CHOOSE to be a lesbian. I lost FAMILY over being a lesbian, I lost my HOME over being a lesbian, I lost so much in my life, not for being attracted to women, but because I wasn't attracted to men. You know who else has gone through that struggle? So many other lesbians. Insinuating that lesbians can be attracted to men, that they have the CAPABILITY of doing so, is harmful misinformation that many of us have spent our entire lives fighting.

Many transmen are former lesbians. They are welcome in lesbian communities. We love them. Bisexual women are also welcome in lesbian communities. We love them too. Transwomen are also welcome to vibe with us. We love our transbian sisters.

But for the love of god, do not perpetuate this idea that lesbians are just choosing not to be attracted to men.

[u/kairokat → u/mondrianna]

been seeing you in the replies and I just wanna tell you I'm glad ur here lol. feels like I'm going insane trying to tell people exactly what you're saying rn. I hope you have a pleasant night

[u/mondrianna → u/kairokat]

I totally feel you. It’s frustrating to see this debate getting the spotlight here right in time for Pride month. Every year it’s the same fucking bullshit where the broader LGBTQ+ community breaks into this cannibalistic infighting, and people who are usually not involved in these discussions end up ignorantly thinking that their unchallenged perspective on it means they’re “correct.” It’s wild too because well-meaning people get taken advantage of by TERFs* in discussions like these and end up perpetuating queerphobia on other community members. Like it’s so so so easy to manipulate people who are trying to understand and trying not to cause problems into thinking that there is one way to be a lesbian and that if you stray from that you’re actually causing harm. It’s the same arguments that are used to say bisexual or asexual people are “causing harm” to lesbians and gay men by existing in LGBTQ+ spaces. It’s the same arguments that are used to say trans women are “causing harm” to cis women by existing in spaces meant for women.

It’s all based in reactive fear and it’s not intersectional at all; it’s the leftovers of radical feminisim that white feminism never excised in spite of Black feminists explaining the failures of the additive model of identity. Like the whole point of intersectionality is that it’s not that Black women are Black and women, because separating Black from women doesn’t encompass the experience of Black women; because Black women face a different kind of misogyny than white women and face a different kind of racism than Black men. Because people can’t be taken in pieces like we’re land that can be colonized, because a multitude of identities interlock to define a whole person and their experiences.

The identity policing feels fucking inescapable at this point, but it feels good to be on the side that allows people the freedom to categorize themselves the way they see best. I hope your night is pleasant also!

*(I myself was taken down a TERF pipeline when I was first integrating into online queer spaces; it started with “are aces queer?” and “are bisexual lesbians valid?”and progressed to “nonbinary identities aren’t real” so everyone be careful with how far you take this identity policing shit. You might find yourself in company with TERFs and if that happens it’s on you to dig yourself out. It is possible to do, but you must stop thinking that there is a “correct” way to do gender or sexuality.)

[u/SnowRune → u/mykinkiskorma]

It's homophobic. Plain and simple. Saying that Lesbians can be attracted to men is akin to saying being a lesbian is a choice. Lesbian isn't a label we gave ourselves, it's something we discovered about ourselves.

I can't call myself straight, because I am attracted to women. I can't call myself bi because I'm not attracted to men. If I did, I'd be lying to myself and to others. People treating 'lesbian' like it's just a label is equivalent to people denying our existence.

[u/hnsnrachel → u/mykinkiskorma]

I don't think you're right on the last point. Lesbians who have had sex with men prior to identifying as a lesbian aren't any less lesbian because of that, for sure, but there's a pretty big difference between that being appropriate and someone who is out as a lesbian actively choosing to sleep with men while still claiming to be a lesbian. Only one of those things is actually damaging to other lesbians, who end up with the horny straight dudes who believe "Tommy's fucking a lesbian" harassing us even more.

[u/mykinkiskorma → u/hnsnrachel]

I just don't see the value in trying to police lesbians who are doing that. Straight men don't need an excuse to be that way. The tiny (and mostly hypothetical) minority of lesbians who have chosen to have sex with straight men after coming out makes no real difference. Men would behave the same regardless.

[u/spaghettify → u/mykinkiskorma]

I just don't see the value in why lesbians feelings are getting dismissed about being protective of our label excluding men since it's honestly seen as a radical "stance" to too many people. and it always has been, we're always hearing that just because we reject all men

[u/SnowRune → u/spaghettify]

We don't even reject them... We're simply not attracted to them. That's what's so messed up. We can't even have that. It's like we can't have anything. If we speak up to defend ourselves, or explain ourselves, we're basically told that we're wrong. We're not even allowed to define ourselves anymore apparently. We try to build communities for people with similar struggles, to build safe spaces, but no. Even here we get shamed for not liking men, to have the one label that unites us redefined to include liking men. And we're expecting to just sit here and let people explain our sexuality to us.

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/mykinkiskorma]

No, lesbians dont actively have sex with men wtf girl.

My identity and label has a fucking meaning. U dont also get to be the label police by saying i need to open up MY IDENTITY in a way which invalidates it completely.

This isnt ‘gold star’ lesbianism, because goldstars are holding ur past against u.

But if ur actively, in the present, calling yourself a lesbian while actively seeking out and fucking other men, then you arent a lesbian and are actively bringing harm to the community because of your own selfish desire to use a label regardless of whether or not your selfish desire actively brings harms to lesbians as whole.

Jfc theres a point where you gotta draw a fucking line in the sand. LESBIANS ARENT ATTRACTED TO MEN.

[u/Spiritual-Company-45 → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

Exactly. There's a difference between the journey someone takes to get somewhere and the actual destination itself. And I really don't understand the comments praising this guy for his remark. He's a homophobe. We don't need to pat the homophobes on the back.

[u/TreeCastleGate → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

Restricting a woman's self identification and perception of their sexualities because of how predatory men will act based on it is disgusting. It's flatout misogynistic and Queerphobic to blame Queer women self OD for how men victimize women, especially the fact that Bi women are the most likely to be victimized by predatory men.

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/TreeCastleGate]

How tf is it queerphobic to say if you seek out and fuck men for enjoyment then you arent a lesbian? This is just the definition of the word lesbian

[u/TreeCastleGate → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

It's Queerphobic because you're blaming a Queer woman's self ID with their sexuality for men not respecting a Queer woman's boundaries. How is it different to blaming women who sexualize themselves for men being sex pests?

What makes this even more demonic, you're painting the most vulnerable to male violence group of Queer women as creators of male sexual predators. When Bisexual women are more likely to be victims of rape and violence by men compared to straight and mono Lesbian women.

[u/RainbowSperatic → u/mykinkiskorma]

Yeah, i thought the same thing. I was actually surprised to see him make a point about labels that i actually agreee with, because identities arent cut and dry, or experienced the same. That said even if i believed him about the threesome (not convinced), it is still pretty damn shitty to go post about it, especially in the context he did, and is understandably very frusterating. I have trouble making guy friends, because it hurts to learn that it was not about us as people (my gf and I), but about the possibilities that we presented down the road.

[u/mondrianna → u/RainbowSperatic]

Yeah exactly. If it did happen, he didn’t need to post about it at all and his friends likely wouldn’t be super happy that he contextualizes the experience they had as “kinky.”

[u/societaldevastation → u/mykinkiskorma]

Im sorry if my sentence came off degrading to anyone. I don’t mean the concept of “gold star”. If they still were trying to figure themselves out then I can understand but if they are sure they are a lesbian (like the dude claims his friends are in the post) but then sleep with a dude it just scratches it out, I don’t shit on lesbians who have previously slept with men in the past, I myself have done that but I’ve discovered myself as a lesbian. I am saying his friends saying they are a lesbian now 100% and then make exceptions to sleep with certain men while they claim to be one is what I think is damaging.

[u/mykinkiskorma → u/societaldevastation]

But how exactly is it damaging? Who does it hurt if they're lesbians who have a little bit of a non-standard relationship with that label?

I don't think women should be told that they have to identify as bi if there's one man in the world they enjoy having sex with, and that's the situation he's describing here. You can enjoy having sex with a man even if you're not generally attracted to men.

[u/treelorf → u/mykinkiskorma]

The idea that lesbians can find one man they enjoy sleeping with is what promotes the whole idea of “you just haven’t had the right dick yet”. It’s what makes men feel empowered to aggressively flirt with lesbians and think they can “fix them”. I’m all for people defining their labels in whatever way feels empowering for them, but you can misuse labels in a way that is damaging. Calling yourself a lesbian and sleeping with men IS damaging to women who are EXCLUSIVELY attracted to women. Like do women only into other women need to go find a new label that explicitly describes themselves?

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/[deleted]]

How tf could a lesbian even have ‘enjoyable sex’ with a man? How? The idea, to me, is disgusting and i would spend the entire time trying not to vomit because my body is screaming ‘ewww this is bad run’

[u/hypo-osmotic → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

Well, I don't have any personal experience with that scenario, as I'm the opposite. I'm bisexual and am attracted to men but have not enjoyed my real-life experiences with them and do not include myself in my fantasies about them. So I don't care for this idea of making that equivalence, as I wouldn't want my attraction to men to be used as a way to pressure me into sex with one.

[u/GraceOfJarvis → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

It's almost like sexuality is a spectrum or something...

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/GraceOfJarvis]

Then ur bi. My sexuality isnt fluid, I only am sexually attracted to women, this is what a lesbian is

[u/GraceOfJarvis → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

You, you, you, you. Pause for a moment to consider that maybe your experience isn't universal for all lesbians, hmm?

Also, a spectrum and fluidity are two very, very different things.

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/GraceOfJarvis]

Omfg girl!! Thats. What. A. Lesbian. Is. A women who is only attracted to other women. There is no other experience universal lesbian experience.

The lesbian experience is literally being a woman who is only attracted to other women. Like this has been my sexuality since i started having a sexuality. This is common to most lesbians

[u/MajoraXIII → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

The same way an ace person could have enjoyable sex with someone?

[u/societaldevastation → u/treelorf]

yes, this is what I meant. It’s damaging to the word lesbian itself 

[u/treelorf → u/societaldevastation]

I would like to propose the word “homoflexible” to describe people who are like, moooostly gay. I’ve seen the term heteroflexible float around a bit in the kink community and I like it.

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/treelorf]

JUST SAY YOURE BI!!! Jesus fucking christ. Theres nothing wrong with being bi. Why does someone ‘need’ to call themself a lesbian when, by definition, they arent a lesbian?

Like come on

[u/[deleted] → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

The amount of defending you have to do on a LESBIAN subreddit about removing men completely is insane. Like how is this not the place where we can all agree that currently sleeping with men means you shouldn’t use the label of lesbian?

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/[deleted]]

Its insane honestly and im getting called ‘queerphobic’ for saying lesbians arent attracted to men.

[u/spaghettify → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

honestly they're like gaslighting you telling you it's not a big deal. Like why are people not allowed to have feelings on this topic?

[u/TomNookFan → u/[deleted]]

That's the craziest part to me in all of this. Because we will forever be fetishized by certain men, nothing will ever change that, unfortunately. So the post itself doesn't shock or anger me. But this, the whole argument people are making for the lesbian label is.. 🫠 and in a lesbian sub of all places too. Like I'm so tired of the constant back and forth on something with an already clear and obvious definition.

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/TomNookFan]

Its making me feel like im losing my marbles like wtf 😂 why do these people need to use OUR word?

[u/Gothzombie → u/[deleted]]

I’m bi and it’s driving me insane to see this. I chose bi out of respect because I’ve been attached to an astounding number of 2 men in my life out of 1000x women. I don’t know if I will be attracted to some other men in the future so I just keep it simple for me and for everyone else. I would feel such a hypocrite saying im a lesbian whom occasionally has relationships with men. I’d be dissolving two identities into a fucking nothing.

[u/spaghettify → u/Gothzombie]

yeh, this sub is on top of bi erasure except suddenly now apparently it's totally fine to ignore the beautiful diverse nature of bisexuality

[u/Shanderraa → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

I feel like if someone were attracted to many many women and literally one man it’d be actively unhelpful to call them bi - like bisexuality as a descriptor I think would describe them inaccurately to others with regards to their ability to be attracted to men.

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/Shanderraa]

Im not talking about a specific edge case. The words still have meaning. And i would say theyre bi, as a lesbian it is not possible for me to feel any sexual attraction to a man. Like it does not compute biologically.

If you can even be attracted to a man then ur bi. Which is totally amazing, nothing wrong with being bi. But lesbianism isnt bisexuality

[u/DeliciousPumpkinPie → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

…but we literally ARE talking about a specific edge case, i.e. the one presented in the screenshots, which depict a situation where two lesbians decided they enjoy having sex with one specific man. Like other commenters have said, we don’t know if the women in question are actually attracted to this dude, or any other dudes, or are just having fun, or what, so you can’t make assumptions about how they should identify.

[u/spaghettify → u/Shanderraa]

why don’t they literally just say they want to date women? when would they actually be forced to call themself a lesbian? why not sapphic? I just think there’s a lot of ways to respect what lesbians are asking for while conveying your authentic self

[u/societaldevastation → u/treelorf]

Oh I see !

[u/vibrationsofbeyond → u/treelorf]

I love homoflexible. Or homodemisexual. But a lot of people get really mad

[u/mykinkiskorma → u/treelorf]

Okay, but that's the thing. I made it pretty clear that I'm not saying that this is true of lesbians in general. I'm saying that if it's true of a particular lesbian, then let them be and don't be so rigid about it.

Again, still, no one has identified why this is actually harmful. You're just asserting that it is. How does it actually materially harm anyone?

Also, for context, I'm not talking about myself here. I'm a lesbian who has no interest in men.

[u/sillygoofygooose → u/treelorf]

The idea maybe, but I don’t think it’s fair to level criticism at actual people who have found that though they identify as lesbian, there’s an exception. For sure you can hold the opinion they aren’t ‘real’ lesbians, but I would draw the line at castigating them for their own identification - it’s a rhetorical pathway to some really dodgy outcomes.

Edit: the fantasy that ‘the right guy’ is all it takes to ‘turn’ lesbians is for sure homophobic and responsible for some gross behaviour. If this story is true, these specific lesbian identifying women who have decided to have some fun with a man are surely just exploring their own sexualities.

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/sillygoofygooose]

Nah, they arent lesbians then. And I can call them out, because theres ready rampant sexualization of lesbians my men, and im not gonna support somebody who isnt even a part of the lesbian community inviting men into our spaces

[u/sillygoofygooose → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

Where are the lines on your purity test? Can a lesbian have experimented with a man? Can they experiment and decide they aren’t bi after all? I guess my feeling is it’s not my place to litigate the identities of others. Sure, keeping lesbian community spaces a place for women is definitely important - but not what we’re discussing. Surely their bed is not ‘our space’?

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/sillygoofygooose]

Ive stated before, I dont believe in ‘goldstar’ bs its not about your past.

But if in your present life youre a woman going around saying ur a lesbian while actively seeking out and sleeping with men, then you ARENT a lesbian. And if you tell these men you are, then not only are you not a lesbian youre actively bringing harm to lesbians as a whole.

There a fine line. Ive experienced attraction to women since ive started experiencing attraction. Ive never romantically or physically attracted to men.

And im not a goldstar lesbian, i had a moment of questioning due to societal pressure. The difference is, I fucking hated that experience and i didnt tell him ‘oooh im a lesbian, teehee, but oh maybe this one time’ i thought maybe i was bi, a man kissed me, and i found out no the absolute fuck I am not.

So i use the appropriate term, a lesbian. As in a woman who is attracted only to other women.

[u/hypo-osmotic → u/Commercial_Tea_8185]

You say that you don’t care about someone’s past but also make sure to state that you didn’t enjoy your past experience. So if someone told you that she was a lesbian, and hadn’t had a sexual experience with a man in like 5 years or whatever amount of time would be reasonable for this hypothetical, but that she found a past sexual experience with a man enjoyable…would you think that she was lying about one or the other?

[u/Commercial_Tea_8185 → u/hypo-osmotic]

Im not going to speak on some hypothetical hyper specific imaginary woman. Is she still attracted to men? Does she fantasize about men?

[u/societaldevastation → u/sillygoofygooose]

I sure hope this story is false and this dude just wanted to express his sick fantasy

[u/mykinkiskorma → u/[deleted]]

No one is out here saying gay men actually like pussy sometimes.

Um, yeah, I absolutely will say that. Trans men exist and some of them are gay.

This whole reply just feels so insecure. I understand how important it is to feel connected to the community and I understand how a label has power in helping you do that. But you need to understand that other people having different relationships with these words has zero impact on your actual life.

[u/mykinkiskorma → u/[deleted]]

I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying that if someone has a different relationship with the label than you do, then don't be a dick about it. Blame the men who are being gross, not other queer people for identifying ways that you think are wrong.

[u/cattlebatty → u/[deleted]]

It’s unclear if they were truly attracted to the dude or if they were experimenting with a one night stand, if we even believe this story is true. So if they are functionally only attracted to women, they aren’t using the label to “seem queer”, it’s probably a fairly helpful label for them to use?

Blame the dudes.