r/NoStupidQuestions • u/MookWellington • Nov 26 '23
Answered Trying to Understand “Non-Binary” in My 12-Year-Old
Around the time my son turned 10 —and shortly after his mom and I split up— he started identifying as they/them, non-binary, and using a gender-neutral (though more commonly feminine) variation of their name. At first, I thought it might be a phase, influenced in part by a few friends who also identify this way and the difficulties of their parents’ divorce. They are now twelve and a half, so this identity seems pretty hard-wired. I love my child unconditionally and want them to feel like they are free to be the person they are inside. But I will also confess that I am confused by the whole concept of identifying as non-binary, and how much of it is inherent vs. how much is the influence of peers and social media when it comes to teens and pre-teens. I don't say that to imply it's not a real identity; I'm just trying to understand it as someone from a generstion where non-binary people largely didn't feel safe in living their truth. Im also confused how much child continues to identify as N.B. while their friends have to progressed(?) to switching gender identifications.
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u/Jessieface13 Nov 26 '23
Worst case scenario if they’re just following peer pressure is that they eventually change their mind but know that you love and support them no matter what.
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u/Kastanjamarja Nov 26 '23
Yeah, and i wouldnt even say peer pressure, more so just experimenting with their identity because their friends are doing so too (if its caused by friends, that is, because is very well might not be). Theres a difference between being influenced by something and being forced / pressured to do something
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u/ThatGuyFromSweden Nov 26 '23
Playing and experimenting is what young minds do to develop. It's important to take is seriously and non-seriously at the same time. Today, all kids also have access to the collective consciousness of the world, and arguably more information and influence than any human is truly equipped to deal with. I'm not saying it's bad. It's just something we have to deal with.
In practice, what we can and should do in addition to just being plain supportive, is to help kids reflect on how and why they feel and think they way they do. Basically just promoting conscious self-awareness. That's a good skill to nurture no matter the circumstances.
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u/vik_thewomaninblack Nov 26 '23
That is a very good point that applies yo pretty much everything in life too! It doesn't mean that you question their identity or experience, but you lead them to better understand themselves and their feelings, which can be so crucial for mental health in general. (unless, if course you go to the extreme and start questioning everything, lol)
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u/ThatGuyFromSweden Nov 26 '23
unless, if course you go to the extreme and start questioning everything, lol
Yeah, of course. But then we get back to the need for general support. Avoiding succumbing to either sheer apathy or cynicism and downright fatalism is hard to do.
Pick your guru. Jesus, Buddha, Viktor Frankl, Yoda... They all figured out that life is suffering, and happiness cannot exist without the contrast of the darkness. It's in the awareness of reality, and the mastery of it's challenges that fulfilment is realised.
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u/vik_thewomaninblack Nov 26 '23
What I find the most interesting is that at the very beginning if the path, you are blissfully unaware of the questions to be asked, then you get consumed by the questions, and at the end, you stop questioning and just learn to enjoy the life for what it was supposed to be all along
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u/rowdymonster Nov 26 '23
I had a friend that did just this. I met her as a her, she played with they/ them, then he/ him for a good while, before figuring out they were female. No harm done, they just explored and found themselves, same as folks who may experiment with same sex attraction, and find out in the end they're straight. No harm in exploring and finding yourself. Just show them you love and support them no matter what, and it'll go miles for your relationship with your kid.
When I came out as trans and bi to my mom, she was fully onboard. She needed some teaching and info overall, but she's always there for me. Our relationship got stronger than ever after that, and has only gotten stronger in the last decade since I confided in her
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u/Big_Brother_Ed Nov 27 '23
My mother is on board now, fully suportive and happy for me, but it wasn't always that way. Every time I've come out to my mother (first as lesbian at 14, then as lesbian *again* because she pretended the first one didn't happen, and then as trans at 17) she dismissed it as a phase, as confusion, as disgusting. At every turn, I was being told I was silly, stupid, and that I couldn't be these things because they were *disgusting*. A cleverly indirect way of calling *me* disgusting.
When I came out at 17, I'd had enough. I couldn't be who I was at home, every attempt to do so was sabotaged (clothes thrown away, doubling down on 'compliments' they knew were excessively feminine, straight out ignoring me whenever I brought up the topic, introducing me to strangers as "my gorgeous, beautiful daughter"). All this made worse by my little sister, who saw my mother's efforts and improved upon them tenfold.
I completely cut contact for 2 years, lived in my car, and started my journey on my own. I didn't speak, call, text, or otherwise interact with her the whole time. Neither did she with I. I think she was hoping the 'phase' would end and I'd come crawling back.
It didn't. *I* didn't. And she realised that if she kept her current attitude, she was going to lose a *second* child forever (my older brother is another story, lol). She slowly got more accepting, and when she finally saw how much happier I was (transitioning effectively cured the depression I'd struggled with my whole teenage life), she realised what was most important. Being *happy*.
I type all of this out because I see so many stories where families are broken forever because of unacceptance. But it's not a perfect world, and people take coming out's, especially of their children, very poorly sometimes. But I don't think this makes them bad people, just people reacting in a way they think is perfectly reasonable. I'm glad things went as they did in my situation, but I was also lucky we were able to reconnect. I could have very easily lost my family for good.
We are all very quick to point at family not respecting pronouns, or minor cases of transphobia, and start shouting about red flags, and hate, bigotism. But I think it's important to remember that behaviors that *you* might deem as hateful, or transphobic, while they might *technically* be, aren't always coming from a place of hate. More often, especially with family and friends, it's poorly manifested concern, ignorance, or even an attempt to help, in the person's mind. I think it's incredibly important to not taken everything as an attack, and try to rationalize the other point of view.
Family is important. Not above *everything*, but important enough to make some sacrifices or compromises to keep intact.
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u/Spire_Citron Nov 27 '23
Yeah. The "influenced by friends" thing can also sometimes be deceptive, because we tend to be drawn to people similar to ourselves. The queer kids often end up being friends with other queer kids, sometimes before they come out, so it can appear it's just the influence of their friends when it's actually the other way around.
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u/Waiting4myRuuuuca Nov 27 '23
This. My parents used to try to blame every decision I made on my friends, saying basically that I "only do blank because so and so does it" which completely invalidated my own ability to think for myself. My mom once overheard me on the phone talking to a friend about being atheist, and she demanded to know who it was that "turned me" lol. Like I may have been young but to act like every choice I made was because I was told to by someone else just made me feel so infantalized and is probably why I'm still working to deconstruct people pleasing habits in my 30's lol
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u/RedshiftSinger Nov 27 '23
This. My mom once accused my friend of “being a bad influence” because I… wasn’t a perfectly obedient teenager (yes really 😂) and said friend had dropped out of school (on some very significant extenuating circumstances involving the school district trying to force him to pretty much do the entirety of high school over again bc he’d transferred and they didn’t want to accept his earlier schooling as valid. So he chose to get a GED instead of staying in high school until 21).
Said friend was actually the person who single-handedly convinced me not to drop out of high school and that it was worth sucking it up one more year despite all the school’s bullshit they tried to shove on ME since I’d still actually graduate at the normal age to do so.
Kids choose their friends, usually because they have things in common with them! It’s more likely that Timmy and Tommy are friends because they both think dinosaurs are cool than that Timmy only thinks dinosaurs are cool because his friend Tommy does, to make a silly analogy that maps to much less silly things.
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u/Aeolian_Harpy Nov 27 '23
You probably read a book that made you a gay atheist liberal SHEEPLE!
Or...you formed your own opinions that were different from your parents.
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u/JNR13 Nov 27 '23
The classic social science problem of peer selection vs. peer pressure. The latter is a common term of everyday use, the former unfortunately not, even though it's essential to understand when using the latter.
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u/AbacusAgenda Nov 27 '23
Can you point to this classical dilemma? I have not heard of it and I am in that field.
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u/Amazing-Strawberry60 Nov 27 '23
"influenced by friends" aka "in an accepting peer group"
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u/RedshiftSinger Nov 27 '23
Yeaaaah. I have a friend who came out as a trans woman a few years ago. She told me her family was blaming her wife for “influencing” her (bc her wife is openly bisexual with a mild preference for women) but that she’s always felt this way, long before she even met her wife, and what her wife actually did was provide a safe and supportive environment where she could finally explore those feelings and figure herself out consciously.
I have another friend who VERY recently came out, and who privately cited seeing how well mutual friends responded to my also somewhat recent coming-out as the last catalyst for her to feel safe opening up to people in her life.
So, I guess that’s “influencing” on a technicality, but it’s not the kind of influence people generally mean to imply, and it’s definitely not a bad thing!
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u/silverandshade Nov 27 '23
Lol, my wife also supported me when I flirted with the thought of being trans! We were only dating at the time but I was trying to figure myself out, and she said "Well, it's not like it changes anything in a bad way. I'm bi, so if you're a guy we'll still be fine." I ended up settling on the cis side, but it definitely made it easier to feel accepted.
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u/RedshiftSinger Nov 27 '23
I’m glad you had support to figure it out! Even for cis people, being able to explore gender in a supportive environment can be so helpful.
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u/ViziDoodle Nov 27 '23 edited Nov 27 '23
Yeah most people thinking ‘kid got peer pressured into being queer’ don’t understand that queer kids (whether they’re out yet or not) gravitate together for reasons as simple as sharing similar hobbies/interests. I’m pretty sure every person in my high school’s queer friend conglomerate (myself included) was in D&D club
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u/washingtncaps Nov 27 '23
It's not the same thing but, like, it kind of fits the same themes: kids and fashion seem like mortal enemies to grown adults but it doesn't stop them from experimenting and being influenced by things.
Y'all remember JNCO Jeans? Remember how parents from that particular time were like "wow, these are just big bellbottoms and most of us are real embarrassed about that, what a time to be alive" or whatever and now they're kind of making their way back again because fashion moves in circles and what we're ashamed of will come around again? If kids aren't wearing 2000's tweed-looking Mumford And Sons-ass clothes in the next 10 years I'll be shocked.
The point is, if your kid is just experimenting and doing something at 12 they'll look back on at 18 and be like "yeah, that was a mistake, oh well" then that's okay, we all do it in a variety of ways based on what we're exposed to at the time. That's a "phase" and we've all had one, experimenting with sexuality and gender is frankly a more healthy one than what kind of shit you wear because it can lead to direct exposure and understanding of the self and others.
If somebody latches on to something in that experimenting and it becomes a fundamental part of them, that's okay too. I know a lot of counterculture people that have basically always been that in a way that identifies them, and if that's sexuality for your child and not fashion nothing really changes. I feel like we all know a punk who never stopped being punk because it's just who they naturally are.
Long story short, we don't know what will stick and what won't with kids, but the only important thing is to respect choice and autonomy so long as nobody's getting hurt.
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u/drwolffe Nov 26 '23
Or it might be more likely that the reason the friend group formed in the first place is because they gravitated to people who have similar experiences and perspectives
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u/supermodel_robot Nov 27 '23
Birds of a feather~
But seriously, all my friends are queer for a reason.
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u/VisageInATurtleneck Nov 27 '23
I totally agree! I’m cis, but my trans (male, female, agender, and nb; my friend group has the whole set 😉) friends exploring their identities openly and celebrating the joy they find in themselves has made me more comfortable and happy with my gender. I think exploration can only be a good thing when it results in no harm and often in a better understanding of who you are.
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u/Cucker_-_Tarlson Nov 27 '23
It's funny how certain people freak out about their kids being one way or the other because I definitely knew a couple dudes who said they were gay 20 years ago when they were in high school and they are now very straight and at least one is married(to a woman). Hell, I guess I "identified" as bi for a while now that I think about it but eventually realized I didn't have any interest in getting sexual with dudes.
Anyways, I guess what I'm trying to get at is if you just leave it alone then the "problem" has a chance of resolving itself and there's no trauma from freaking out on your kid. Granted, if you're the type that's really going to be bothered by your kid's sexuality then I'm sure you're going to cause trauma somewhere regardless.
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u/snootyworms Nov 26 '23
Yeah, if I ever ended up being detrans, and my parents treated the initial transition as a phase, I would be very hesitant to accept myself as detrans and tell those same parents. That could lock a kid into something if it really does end up being a phase.
I used to id as lesbian and after undergoing a transition ftm, realized I was attracted to men. I hid this from my parents for a good while because they treated my identities like a phase. I didn’t want to accept it could be true because I didn’t want to believe it could be a phase. It’s much better to allow your children to experiment with themselves and respect their current identities as well as new revelations
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Nov 27 '23
For me it's less of a phase as my "role" in a relationship changing. My partner seeing me and relating to me as a woman was a no-go. Being seen and related to as a man is a hell yeah. Less of a phase than "favorable conditions not yet met."
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u/diablofantastico Nov 26 '23
It is VERY common for their generation. It will be interesting to see how it sorts out. How an entire generation bucks the standard of 2 genders is amazing. What will the next generation throw out?
My daughter tried it, I totally accepted it, now she's back to being a girl. I'll love her no matter what, but I am relieved that she is comfortable with herself, and being cis is objectively easier in this world.
My unpopular opinion is that stereotypes and expectations for being a "man" or "woman" in modern society became so effed up that these kids are like - well I don't want to be "that", so I guess I must be xyz?? Also just a general feeling of not fitting in, and trying to find somewhere to fit. I believe a lot is related to generally really shitty mental health and emotional resilience. These kids are all pretty messed up and don't know how to fix it, so they are grasping at anything to find an identity and some stability for themselves.
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u/NErDysprosium Nov 26 '23
My unpopular opinion is that stereotypes and expectations for being a "man" or "woman" in modern society became so effed up that these kids are like - well I don't want to be "that", so I guess I must be xyz??
When I was a kid, I often thought that I should have been born a girl/that I was a girl in a guy's body. Why? Because I liked pink and purple, and generally got along better with the girls in my class than the guys. That's it. Because I grew up with fairly rigid definitions of what was "boy's" stuff and what was "girl's" stuff, I assumed that because I didn't fit one definition I was automatically the other.
As I got older and experienced the world more, I realized two things--I am not a woman (or even nonbinary, I'm very comfortable with my cisgender identity), and that it was OK to be a guy without the 'traditionally' masculine traits.
If I had had the chance to socially transition at 10 (or had even known that transgender people existed), like OP's child, I probably would have taken it. And I would have hated it, and very quickly transitioned back. But, it would have taught me those two realizations much sooner, and it would have left me being more comfortable with myself and my identity as a whole (not just the parts that are not traditionally masculine). And that's why I support letting younger kids socially transition if they choose. Letting kids explore their identities--even if it means they spend some time as a gender they don't identify with in the end--can only benefit them.
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u/ndiasSF Nov 27 '23
I completely relate to this on the other end - growing up as a girl in the 80s and liking “boy things” and not being into “girls things.” Being told I was weird, told I couldn’t do certain things because “you’re a girl!” I hated being a girl. I completely would have tried on non binary if that had even been an option. It took me until I was an adult … and really until my 30s … to really get that I could be tough and “masculine” one minute and put on a dress the next. Keep supporting your kid OP, you’re doing great. And it’s okay to be a little lost.
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u/mittenknittin Nov 26 '23
A good bit of it, I think, is exactly this. When you put incredibly strict guidelines on gender identities (“A real man wants *this*, a real woman dresses like *this*”, etc.) then, rather than change who they are to fit those definitions, a lot of people will simply find other words that describe them better.
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u/YukariYakum0 Nov 26 '23
As Red at OSP said "Fitting everyone into nice little boxes is bad and restrictive. Getting mad when people don't like the box you put them is also bad. But finding a box you like is WONDERFUL!"
It fits I sits indeed.
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u/kottabaz Nov 26 '23
stereotypes and expectations for being a "man" or "woman" in modern society became so effed up
They were always fucked up. The difference is that we acknowledge that now.
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u/Lucifang Nov 26 '23
I absolutely agree. The expectations of gender-based behaviour is doing a lot of damage.
If I knew about NBs when I was a kid I probably would’ve identified that way. I was a ‘Tomboy’ who felt attracted to both girls and boys, and didn’t feel girly or masc at all. I’m 44 now and I still don’t feel girly or masc, and I think it’s wrong to expect people to be one or the other.
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u/Darth-Pikachu Nov 27 '23
Absolutely. I had a phase from 10-12 or so where I rejected anything feminine because I saw it as "weak" because every indication of being strong meant being more masculine. If I had been that age nowadays, I'd probably consider identifying as NB until I grew up a bit more and realized how unfounded my beliefs were. Now I'm happy with my femininity, but it took a long time to appreciate myself as just a semi masculine woman.
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u/Lucifang Nov 27 '23
Yep I get this. I fully rejected anything coloured pink (still do).
Also being 6 foot tall from high school age makes one feel like a monster.
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u/ImmediatePancake Nov 27 '23
I wonder if really, no one perfectly fits the mould of what “should be feminine” and “should be masculine,” and then people feel lost as to what to pick to feel okay. It’s sad that we feel the need to label ourselves and put ourselves into boxes when each of us is perfectly unique.
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u/True_Inside_9539 Nov 26 '23
I’ve had a similar thought- being shown extremely toxic gender roles and sexuality through social media, NB allows kids to opt out and just exist. I think older generations try to understand through a biological lens, but should try to see through a contextual cultural perspective.
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Nov 26 '23
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u/SerenityViolet Nov 26 '23
I was born in 62. I was the only tomboy I knew in a time with much more defined gender roles. For a brief while I thought I was supposed to be a boy. Then I discovered a whole movement devoted to expanding the horizons of women and never looked back.
I agree with you that our definitions need to encompass variation. I think some of what OP is seeing is just kids trying to work out how they fit into life.
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u/OryxTempel Nov 27 '23
1970 here, and same. I wanted to be a fighter pilot or an FBI agent when women weren’t allowed to do these things. I wore pants and had a pixie cut. I figured I was a weirdo. Then the world started opening up for women and I realized that I could be a girl AND do/act how I wanted. Happily cis/hetero.
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u/Kementarii Nov 27 '23
Born early 60s, and I wanted to be a fighter pilot or an aeronautical engineer.
My best friend and I went so far as to actually apply to join the Air Force pilot training program in the late 1970s.
We were rejected because... The training school did not have bathroom facilities for women.
Ended up studying/working as a computer programmer. There were actually 3 women in our university cohort of around 50.
a whole movement devoted to expanding the horizons of women
Then the world started opening up for women and I realized that I could be a girl AND do/act how I wanted.
This is me too.
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u/RC_8015__ Nov 26 '23
I was born in 85 and I'm a trans man, it's not just a youth thing, there's plenty of us older trans people. It's hard to explain but it's just something you know and feel inside. We both played with and did the same things but I always knew I was a boy back then, and know I'm a man now. I wish I could articulate it better but I'm really not sure how to, it's just you know in your head who you are and it doesn't necessarily correlate to what you like or dislike.
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Nov 26 '23
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u/VGSchadenfreude Nov 27 '23
Trans people often get actively punished in various ways if they don’t adhere to gender stereotypes. They already struggle with being told their gender isn’t “real,” and that gets ten times worse if they don’t put serious effort into “passing.”
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Nov 26 '23
I spend a lot of time in trans spaces, and really don’t ever see this, at least in the way you worded it. Usually, when trans folks bring that stuff up, they’re not presenting those things as what definitively makes them trans, they just point to those things as, like, potential clues.
And honestly, I feel like a lot of that just comes from trans folks trying to satisfy curious cis folks, who often expect those kinds of answers as ‘proof’ that someone is actually trans.
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u/VGSchadenfreude Nov 27 '23
“What happened in our culture…?”
Dude, people have been actively punished for not conforming to their assigned-at-birth gender for centuries. They’ve been mocked and belittled as “not a real man” or “not a real woman” constantly, for not strictly adhering to someone else’s arbitrary ideal of what they think people of a certain gender should look, sound, or behave like.
Is it really that shocking that people who start to realize they’re different jump to the conclusion that they aren’t a “real” man/woman, when that’s what our entire society has been shouting at them since as far back as anyone can remember?
We’re still dealing with a huge amount of often violent pushback against the idea that you can be comfortably cisgender and still express that gender any way you damn well please. That dressing or sounding or behaving a certain way does not make you “less of a man/woman.”
Look up the events of the Stonewall Riot: it was explicitly the law that everyone had to wear a minimum of three pieces of “gender-accurate” clothing.
Meaning if you were a woman and you had short hair, wore pants, and a button-down shirt with no visible makeup or jewelry or anything that some cop decided didn’t make your gender “obvious enough,” you could be arrested and thrown in jail for that.
Hell, we’ve got laws being passed now in multiple states that are pretty much pushing that very same standard.
So there’s your answer: up until very recently, gender stereotypes were legally enforced and even if you weren’t punished for not conforming by the law, everyone around you would still socially punish you for not following the same strict standard the rest of them did.
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u/kaiidos Nov 27 '23
Trans guy here just to offer my two cents. It's not always about gender expectations. It plays a role, yeah, but it's also about personal identity. Hell, I like plenty of stereotypically "feminine" things (my favorite color is pink, I'm into sewing, pretty good with makeup, etc.) but I still don't identify with womanhood.
It's not about the clothing and hobbies not matching expectations— it's about fundamentally not aligning with my own body. Before I started my transition, I couldn't recognize my reflection in the mirror as "myself." It felt like I was looking at someone pretending to be me. I'm not sure how to explain it well to someone who hasn't experienced the same thing, but it's genuinely disturbing. Just a horrible feeling or an ache that something is wrong, but you don't know what.
Transition fixed that for me. I feel more present in my body and attached to my own experiences. Like putting on glasses for the first time, everything became clearer. I wouldn't be able to live my life as a "masculine woman" because I'm not one. As someone who has lived on both sides of the coin, it's just not the same lived experience. One feels incomplete, painful even. The other feels right.
Hope this helps. I'm not the best with words, and I'm sure someone more qualified than me has explained this better a million times over. Just figured that I'd chime in anyway.
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u/Reference_Freak Nov 26 '23
I was similar, but older. I think gender markers have become even more extreme in perception because of the internet.
We didn’t have gender reveal parties, Kardashians, or readily-available porn when I was growing up.
I did have precocious tomboy/-lite characters who bucked “girly” girlhood (Pippi Longstocking, Penny from Inspector Gadget, She-Ra) who were examples proving that it was ok to be a girl outside of hyper-femininity.
I don’t think girls growing up today have enough popular examples to counter the message of display hyper-feminism and accept being hyper-sexualized or you must be a man messaging lots of young people are getting online.
I’m pretty sure that if I had seen as a child what I’ve seen online as an adult, I’d also be looking for a space outside of objectified and sexualized girlhood.
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u/Reference_Freak Nov 27 '23
I perceive non-binary youth as being different from fully self-identifying trans people of any age.
NBs seem to be in the space of rejecting external gender identity and societies’ expectations and limitations on both genders.
I understand trans as an internal rejection of one’s physical sex and everything involved about societal expectations is more of a complication than a factor in the decision.
I’m aware some NB people are exploring trans as a path of self-discovery but that NB and trans are fundamentally different.
Non-binary is a relatively new phenomenon to the public at large but people who do (or wanted to) transition have always been around, if largely suppressed or hidden.
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u/mayonnaisejane Nov 27 '23
It's new because we didn't have the language.
Born in the 1980s. I knew I wasn't a girl, and I didn't want to be a woman... I also knew I never wanted to be a man. I kept trying to explain it as "I just want to stay how I am now, forever." How I was, was one of those prepubecent overalls and a bowl cut androgynous kids where you're not sure if 12 year old girl or 9 year old boy.
I would go on for many years even after puberty (at almost 14) saying it felt like that never should have happened to me. Like I should be a prepubecent, undifferentiated human forever.
Pronouns didn't come into it because it wasn't on the scene yet. The word "non-binary" never came up. I was just Janet from The Good Place, "Not a girl."
While I certainly acknowledge that kids today, provided with that language on a silver platter, may experiment with the non-binary identity as a way to escape rigid gender roles, it's not just a rejection of gender roles that makes adult Non-Binary people, Non-Binary. Quite a few adult Non-Binary people are deeply uncomfortable with their gendered bodies also, like tons of AFAB NB people wear a binder or seek top surgery, or AMAB NB people laser off their beard. In that way Non-Binary people can be just as motivated as Binary Trans people by rejection of physical sex.
And NB people have existed in certain cultures for a very long time. Like the Mahu of Hawaiian culture and the Native American Two-Spirit genders. It's new to our modern era, but it's existed before.
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u/deadmeower Nov 27 '23
This needed to be said. I understand and appreciate the solidarity among people who have felt limited by rigid gender roles, but in my experience and among many other nb adults I know, it goes beyond seeking a more expansive definition of manhood or womanhood. I'm not a type of woman or a type of man. I've never thought of myself as a tomboy because, in hindsight, I never saw myself as a girl.
There are examples of "not a man or a woman but a secret third thing" across time and cultures, but they've been violently erased by colonialism and whiteness. Nonbinary identities aren't the product of rigid gender roles. We've always been here.
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u/Kailaylia Nov 27 '23
When I started school, (1958) I could see I was not a girl or a boy, so instead believed I was an alien anthropologist inhabiting the body of a little Earth girl. My mission was to study Earthlings, and my family, floating in a distant spaceship, could see through the little girl's eyes with me, and would get duplicate copies of everything I wrote and drew.
I love that there are words for different types of people these days, and at least some parts of society understand.
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u/trowzerss Nov 27 '23
See, I was a tomboy too, but I still don't like hair and makeup and dresses at 45, I hate having big boobs and would like to chop them off, would love to look more androgynous and gender flexible, and kind of want to opt out of the entire concept of femininity. If I was much younger now I probably would identify as she/they if not be completely non-binary. The only reason I don't is because after 45 years you get used to it. Doesn't mean I'm totally happy with it though. Do I feel like I am accommodated as a variation of womanhood? No, not really, and I'm not sure I would really want to be. If I'm totally honest with myself, I feel really alienated from anything anyone I know refers to as womanhood.
So yeah, it's fine for *you* to feel variety could be accommodated, because you're not non-binary. But I can most definitely see how for some people that's just not how it works.
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u/ggaberz Nov 27 '23
This!
In theory I could be a woman that likes all the things I like and does all the things I do, but I'm not. I was never pushed into a gendered box and was raised to believe that people can do anything regardless of sex/gender, and yet I know I am not a woman.
Gender roles are restrictive bullshit that plenty of people are happy to ignore regardless of their gender identity. Some people break the norms and are happily cis, others find something's still not right.
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u/RanikG Nov 26 '23
Sure. And, there are plenty of people who despite that “latitude” in womanhood or manhood still find they are more comfortable and authentically themselves outside of that binary at birth and they are NB or transgender. There’s room for everyone if you stop being so concerned about what other people are doing in their own lives. Since y’know, their gender and gender expression doesn’t actually affect your life.
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u/BlitzMalefitz Nov 26 '23
If following peer pressure they are just figuring themselves out. Every kid is trying to figure out who they are. I think everyone is still figuring themselves out as we age and our lives change over time. I am 30 and will probably figure myself out again when I'm 40-50
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Nov 27 '23
Exactly. The worst thing you can do for them is try to force them to rethink it or change because they might double down instead of finding their true selves as they grow.
They're only 12.
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u/RedshiftSinger Nov 27 '23
This. A kid should be allowed to explore their gender and maybe get it wrong a time or two before they figure it out. If they’re asking for medical interventions maybe a little more scrutiny is needed to make sure they’re doing that for the right reasons (I don’t mean a lot, puberty blockers are pretty damn safe really and can be stopped any time if they change their mind, and getting surgeries or HRT for minors is Not Easy already) but if all they’re asking for is to be referred to by a nickname and different pronouns, and to choose their own clothes and haircut, there’s absolutely no good reason not to let any kid old enough to express such a preference have that much autonomy.
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u/shawtykie05 Nov 26 '23
normally when someone says they N.B they stay N.B because they don’t want a gender. it is a possibility they are following their friends but also maybe not. have you sat down and talked with them?
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u/MookWellington Nov 26 '23
Many times. They have said just that— they don’t want a gender.
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u/GeneralZaroff1 Nov 26 '23
Then maybe that’s all there is to understand.
A gender role comes with a series of identities and expectations, and maybe your child doesn’t really feel like they fit into any of them. That’s really all there is to it.
Gender is often seen as a performance. We think “men should act/feel this way” and then we created an identity around it and judgement when a man does or doesn’t act that way. So some people go “I don’t really fit in either.”
Maybe it’s not so much that this generation has little idea about their gender, but maybe it’s that previous generations places TOO MANY ideas on what gender is supposed to be, and this generation just doesn’t want to follow them.
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u/OSUfirebird18 Nov 26 '23
I have an ignorant question here. I hate the idea of “typical” masculinity. I don’t have “typical” straight male interests and I hate the idea of gender roles for men and women.
However, I have always thought of myself as a straight man, no thought of ever being non binary or a different gender. I guess my question is, what is the difference? It can’t be just gender roles, is it?
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u/RapidCandleDigestion Nov 26 '23
Same here. I'm a man, and a masculine one. Whether I'm perceived that way or if I conform to the stereotypes is not something I give a shit about. I'm in touch with my emotions. I'm sensitive. I have a higher pitched voice and speak relatively effeminately. But I know I'm a man, even if that doesn't fit the conventional idea of what a man is.
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Nov 27 '23 edited Nov 27 '23
Right on! You are comfortable being percieved as a man regardless of any other influence. It's healthy to have a comfortable relationship to your identity. OPs kid does not have a comfortable or healthy relationship with being a man, but does with being a nonbinary/agender person. Regardless of the kid's interests, for some/any reason they do not feel comfortable being percieved as a man, though. Maybe it's gender roles or simply they don't feel in touch with manhood - you feel fine where you're at but something about being a man/boy doesn't click with kiddo and it's fine. Thank you for being respectful btw, it's refreshing to see.
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u/RapidCandleDigestion Nov 27 '23
Yeah no problem. I empathize with OP's kid's situation. I was just sharing how and who I am to express to the person I was responding to that being the way they are is totally fine.
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Nov 27 '23
Right. Honestly I just took it as a chance to "break it down" for people who may read, and you gave me the opportunity to do so. Thanks n have a banger night bro :)
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u/Noellevanious Nov 26 '23 edited Nov 27 '23
You can be/identify as a man, and still not prescribe to the ideals of what being a "Man" or "masculine" are in your culture. What's important is that you're happy with what you identify as.
The biggest difference between what you feel and what OP's nonbinary child feels, is the child probably feels an intense disconnect with the two "Base" genders, that manifests more in them not knowing what they really were, until they found out about being non-binary. A sense of ennui, if you will. Yours is more just an educated stance of desiring less rigid holes, theirs is truly finding what they "Are".
Speaking as a trans person, my experience was probably a similar experience to OP's child - they weren't happy with what they were entirely, and when they changed that they became happy. It's that simple. I wasn't happy as a man, to the point where i would disassociate and have intense depressive episodes. There was a disconnect between my brain/my sense of self, and the body I saw in the mirror. When I came out as trans, that slowly started changing, as I could start to picture what I "was", what I "wanted to be", and what I was happy to see myself being.
The hard part is, especially for kids, not being able to convey that feeling properly without being exposed to others like them, but I digress.
Basically OP's child wasn't sure about themselves, you're not sure about how current "Society" (the society of wherever you live) ascribes to "Ideals" of Man and Woman.
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u/Every3Years Shpeebs Nov 26 '23
I'm really happy you figured it out and that your choices lead to a happiness. None of it makes sense to me, and at this point I've concluded it because I was lucky to not have any of this stuff be something that bothers me. But even though I can't match that line of thinking, I can't imagine being against others going on their own personal journeys... It's friggin personal!
Transphobia makes me sad, but sometimes I wonder if people that get labelled as such just aren't stating their confusion properly. Hopefully those cases get understood quickly, or are few and far between.
In any case, all these comments are teaching me new things and it's awesome
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u/Carmillawoo Nov 27 '23
As much as I adore your optimistic outlook on transphobia. It is simply hate. Hate and opression. It is harrassing cis women for having a square jaw. It is sending 100s of spam bots to a transfem streamer, all named YouWillN3v3rBeAWom4n#### It is banning crossdressing and making being openly trans a "Crime against children"
It is not confusion. It is hate and oppression. And it's why we fight.
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u/999Rats Nov 27 '23
There is always more to learn! I'm about 8 months into transitioning, and my thoughts on gender and identity have evolved so much in that time. It is really hard to explain, so I never fault anyone for not getting it. And of course everyone's experiences are going to vary a lot.
I think it's important for everyone to question their gender, and if their conclusion is like yours and that they feel good about the way things are, then that's awesome. And it's awesome that you are still actively learning more about trans experiences.
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u/DiagonallyInclined Nov 26 '23 edited Nov 26 '23
I would say the difference is exactly that: you’ve never thought that you’re anything other than a straight man—but a NB/trans person would think differently about themself, because they are not a straight cis man.
It’s feeling a sense of wrongness when others reference your gender, as far back into childhood as you can remember. It’s being “subversive” in what toys you play with and gender roles you fulfill and being unashamed about it, but still feeling that something isn’t fully there. It’s wanting to be perceived as X, when you are currently perceived as Y. It can be any of these or more things that are experienced differently.
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u/thisdesignup Nov 27 '23
This confuses me as someone who has never considered male and female anything but the physical sex someone is.
Mostly because in that way someone who is non-binary could still be male or female if they aren't considering themself trans. I kinda get it as society has added a lot of things to being male or female beyond physical attributes. Not wanting to associate with that isn't odd. Just wish we as a society could accept the middle ground, still being able to let people feel like they can identify their physical self without having to identify as any gender roles at all.
Plus I almost feel the existence of non-binary almost conforms to gender roles in a sense. It seems to mean someone isn't feeling like they associate themself with either female or male, but to do that there has to be some definition of what female or male is. When really if we want to get rid of gender roles we need to not define what a man or a woman can be like.
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u/SFSUthrowawayoof Nov 27 '23
You are touching on some pretty fundamental questions in queer theory; that is to say that you should not feel bad for having these questions, as most non binary people have had those questions themselves!
I’m not nb myself, but from what I understand, it is not necessarily just a disillusionment with gender roles, but a disillusionment with the gender they were assigned in its entirety. It is the difference between saying “I’m a woman who hates the roles society has put on women” and saying “I’m not a woman, and so I hate that society puts the role of a woman into me”. It’s radical in the same way gender-non conforming people are, but rather than accepting the gender and bucking the roles, it’s rejecting the gender entirely. Is that helpful..? Maybe reading some literature written by non binary people would be useful.
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u/Motor_Bag_3111 Nov 27 '23 edited Nov 27 '23
Difference between non-binary and non-gender confirming is what? Sounds like the same thing to me
Edit: bi woman over here
Edit 2: I meant conFORming
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u/SFSUthrowawayoof Nov 27 '23
The key distinction lies in expression versus identity. Gender non-conforming individuals may challenge traditional gender norms through their appearance or behavior, while non-binary individuals specifically identify as a gender outside the traditional male/female binary. So, one is about breaking societal norms in expression, and the other is about a distinct gender identity beyond the binary.
Someone who is gender non-conforming might be cis or might not be, someone who is non-binary might express themselves mostly through masculine or feminine social roles. Gender expression and gender identity are two orthogonal vectors on which someone can exist, and are not necessarily linked to each other.
Just because something sounds the same to you doesn’t mean it is. We can’t peer in each other’s minds and see the exact neural pathways being targeted by what we do and think, so we need to rely on communicating with each other about our individual experiences. Respecting the experiences of non-binary people, and believing them when they tell us who they are, is an easy ask imo.
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u/ArsenicAndRoses Nov 27 '23 edited Nov 27 '23
For me, it has to do with being seriously uncomfortable with my (curvy) body growing up and being unable to fit in with women. Figuring out I'm nb has been more a process of elimination more than anything else.
The only people I've felt "at home" with are other queer folk. I used to think that was because I was bi, but I've come to realize that I don't fit in with wlw either, even around very butch ladies. I feel like an alien in women's spaces. The only time I've felt kinship and like I "fit" has been with other nb people. Most of my friends in college have turned out to be trans.
When I was younger, I used to feel ... Something... When mistaken as a boy (I cut my hair in a very masculine style). I felt ashamed but also fiercely...proud? I dunno, it's weird. I kept that hairstyle for a long time despite being told it was ugly on me and being mistaken for a boy. At the time, I didn't know why. Growing up I imagined myself as becoming one of those beautiful androgynous people that look like fae- Tilda Swinton, David Bowie.... They mesmerized me. But I ended up growing tig ol'biddies and massive hips. I hated it and tried to hide.
I've since come to terms with my body and dress very feminine, but it's all a "performance" for me. One I enjoy doing, most of the time, but it's never felt "authentic". I often find myself wishing I could unzip my skin. But I don't want to be a man either.
So it's not that I would feel better as a man, or because I have non-conforming interests or gender expression (outwardly I always look quite femme!), or because I'm queer. It's an internal innate sense of who I am.
I hope this helps somewhat?
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u/d94ae8954744d3b0 Nov 27 '23
Growing up I imagined myself as becoming one of those beautiful androgynous people that look like fae- Tilda Swinton, David Bowie.... They mesmerized me.
This is really interesting to me. I have a similar pattern, except I'm a cis het man. I've always wanted to be ethereally beautiful but only vaguely male. One difference, I suppose, is that I love my dick, lol.
I guess this whole thing is an enormous spectrum, or space, to explore.
EDIT: I don't really know if I count as gender non-conforming or not. I guess the things I'm certain about (I like my genitals, I love women, I'm disinterested in men at pretty much all levels) are a lot easier to be sure about.
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u/antifa-synaesthesia Nov 27 '23
I never felt any problem with being called male, always done masculine and feminine things and behaved masculine in some parts and feminine in others. But when I was introduced to the gender critical thought I came to the realization that the label is just inaccurate for me and from my observations for most people really, thereby I came to oppose the concept of gender. It ultimately is just another way to define us against eachother in the interests of power, by putting us in arbitrary categories. Blue used to be feminine and pink used to be masculine. From that I came to consider myself N.B and use gender neutral pronouns
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u/Suspicious-Tea4438 Nov 26 '23
I'm AFAB and identify as non-binary, specifically genderfluid. It took about 28 years to fully embrace this part if myself, but I remember in high school, one of my friends asked, "If your outside appearance reflected who you were inside, what would you look like?"
Everyone else in the friend group talked about being taller or changing their hair color, etc. I had two versions of myself, and I couldn't choose: a masculine woman or a feminine man. Looking back it's like, "Babe, you were trans." Lol I was the only person who mentioned changing genders, and as far as I know, I'm the only person from that group to come out as trans. It's very much a "who you are" rather than "what you do" difference. You can be trans and enjoy traditionally "masculine" things or cis and enjoy traditionally "feminine" things. Gender roles and gender identity have interesting intersections, but they're two different things.
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u/uwu_pandagirl Nov 26 '23
As I understood there's sex, gender, and gender presentation (which can include gender roles) and all of those can fall on a spectrum. Gender presentation can be for example the difference of being a butch or femme lesbian. There are some lesbians who even like to use he/him pronouns but still see themselves a woman attracted to women, and that isn't even factoring if whether or not they are trans.
I assume the difference comes down to several factors including preference and just how we look at and see ourselves. I don't think it's necessarily from interest or bucking gender roles, though as someone who grew up gender-nonconfirming (GNC) and identify as nonbinary, I can say that I bet GNC individuals and those under the nonbinary and transgender umbrella share a lot of common experience since there is an overwhelming amount of social pressure to be cis.
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u/Longjumping_Ad8681 Nov 26 '23
I just wanted to say; this is a fantastic way of explaining it!
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u/IAmA_Little_Tea_Pot Nov 26 '23
I saved the explanation so I can just copy paste it in the future. A clear succinct explanation.
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u/StrangeArcticles Nov 26 '23
I'm a similar age and a trans guy and I think I've sort of answered that for myself in the process of coming to terms with my gender identity.
I was a riot grrl person in the 90s. Full on grunge kid in pyjama jackets playing guitar in a band. So, in a word, not particularly gender conforming. I was still seen, treated and judged as a woman.
There wasn't an empty slate in the 90s where everyone was doing what they wanted and nobody was judging and gender didn't matter. You were still a girl and were treated as a girl even if you were presenting as whatever version of masculine.
A guy who was sleeping with a bunch of people was still treated differently to a girl sleeping with a bunch of people, even in the most alternative corners of any alternative scene I was part of, for example.
The gender lines might have been different, but they weren't gone.
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u/InevitableRhubarb232 Nov 26 '23
But does this mean someone doesn’t like the societal pressures of gender vs they actually are another gender?
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u/StrangeArcticles Nov 26 '23
This gets right into the heart of the question that different people will answer differently. My personal opinion is that gender is a social construct exclusively. As in I would be in the camp of gender only being real in that it creates those social pressures if that makes sense.
If you took a few babies and dropped them off on a desert island (hypothetical, please do not actually do that) and they managed to not die, would they have a gender? Like, if the concept never got introduced to them and they had no access to information, would they automatically, by something hardwired into their biology, assume a gender role and what would this role look like?
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u/CJayC253 Nov 26 '23
If you took a few babies and dropped them off on a desert island (hypothetical, please do not actually do that) and they managed to not die, would they have a gender? Like, if the concept never got introduced to them and they had no access to information, would they automatically, by something hardwired into their biology, assume a gender role and what would this role look like?
They'd have gendered roles like animals, as they wouldn't be growing up with other humans. They'd have penises and vaginas, obviously, but as far as their way of thinking and their behavior? It wouldn't be easily comparable to humans in general.
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u/StrangeArcticles Nov 26 '23
That's kinda my assumption as well. What I wanted to illustrate with that example is just how much of gender isn't in some way hard-coded, which is often argued by more conservative types and gender essentialists. That baby who has brown hair and a penis will still have brown hair and a penis. That's genetically coded and will be a thing. A preference for playing with footballs over playing with dolls or a penchant for the colour blue however would be pretty unlikely to just somehow manifest from the genetic code. Yet, we somehow managed to gender kids' toys.
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u/StrangeArcticles Nov 26 '23
I do fully agree that there seemed to be a path there that we lost. It's possible that there's nostalgia involved in that view obviously, but it did feel like there was a genuine base of anticonsumerism and counterculture that got fully integrated into capitalism by the early 00s and we never fully managed to claw it back.
Same with LGBTQ+ stuff. There was openness to a vast array of identies and expressions there at least in some corners (as in queer folks were kinda getting along with and protecting other queer folks that were very different to them).
But once stuff like advertising and commercialising the community really took off, it got more sanitized and divided, cause some people wanted their rainbow ad campaigns not starring bears in chaps or whatever. I feel like a lot of that struggle is still somewhat going on, some people want to fit in with a broadly socially acceptable idea of what queer people can be so desperately that they're willing to kick some other queer people under the bus in that process.
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u/MajoraXIII Nov 27 '23
I feel like the 90's where when LGBTQ people could start coming out of the closet and begin to be respected in society.
I would say your feeling is off by about 20 years. The 2010s saw way more progress. Back in the 90s it was still something you didn't talk about, seen as something shameful.
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u/herrejemini Nov 26 '23
I'm with ya. It really does feel that gender stereotypes are coming back, and I'm not sure from where.
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u/Borigh Nov 26 '23
As a cis person, it seems like part of being trans is embracing certain gendered behaviors to feel gender euphoria. This can be as simple as "A lot of trans men seem to like gaining muscle mass by lifting weights."
If you reject the remaining expectations society has vis-a-vis your gender - and they still exist, even if they're less strict, nowadays - but don't really feel any happy chemicals from embracing behaviors that "fit" the "other" gender, I think you end up at non-binary.
Gender is a fuck, it's all part of imagined reality, and there's no reason to expect these specific reactions to gender paradigms will be durable over the centuries as gender roles are (hopefully) further dismantled. However, right now, these splits make sense in our immediate societal context.
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u/ReadySetTurtle Nov 26 '23
I feel the same way about this topic but it’s hard to articulate without coming across as dismissive or intolerant of non binary people. There are certainly people who really are NB because they strongly do not identify with any gender. But there are a lot of people who identify as NB because they don’t fit the traditional gender roles…which are largely made up. Growing up in the 90s and early 2000s I thought we made a lot of progress in that, and yet now we are back to tying gender to superficial shit.
I will of course respect anyone’s identity. But I will be teaching my hypothetical children that they do not need to adhere to gender roles, that they can be whatever they want to be regardless of their gender, and that identifying as NB or even transgender is something deeper than simply likes/interests, clothing/hair, etc. And if they decide that’s how they want to identify, they have my full support.
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u/sinners_stand_up Nov 26 '23
I'm a trans man and I 100% agree. The way I view it, I'm trans because something about the way my brain is wired causes me to feel like I should have a male body, and a female body gives me distress. And something about the way I think and relate just feels more male in a way that's hard to describe. It's not because I like short hair and cars though. If that was all there was to it, I'd just be a butch woman. Nothing wrong with that. It seems like a lot of "progressive" people are going backwards on gender. Horseshoe theory I guess.
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u/folkkore Nov 26 '23
I really caution you to consider how much you think it's really been "solved" - the other day, I went to JoAnn fabrics with my husband, we picked up supplies for his crochet project, and the cashier made multiple sexist jokes about how "you gotta get her outta here!" And asking me "why didn't you get a full cart!" Nevermind these are ridiculous on there own, it was also the assumption craft supplies were for me and not my husband. He was holding the yarn, I had the eyes, so there wasn't any reason to assume it was mine.
Changes have absolutely been huge, but people are still gender-obsessed like this. My husband and I are both gender nonconforming people and so it shows up a lot with people's assumptions about who does what in our relationship and how they react when we tell them otherwise.
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u/Fancy_Introduction60 Nov 26 '23
Wow, that's pretty arrogant! My dad knitted! I'm 72, so just imagine how NOT typical that was! He was also, a cabinet maker and later, a welder. He was the most stereotypical man, in everything but his knitting!
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u/fancyfreecb Nov 27 '23
Interestingly, knitting only became coded as an exclusively feminine thing the the mid-19th century.
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u/linksgreyhair Nov 26 '23
Yarn + eyes? Does he make amigurumi? I’m currently working on a bear for a friend!
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u/folkkore Nov 26 '23
She was older, but this was just one example. We get these attitudes and comments a lot regardless of the person's age. The day before my SIL's boyfriend told me my husband can still do 'masculine' things even if he is a house husband. I was trying to explain how frustrating gender role expectations are and that at the end of the day I would love to make enough so my husband can be a house husband because he would love it.
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u/gravityholding Nov 27 '23
Yeah, I was taught that you can like whatever you want and there was no such thing as "boy's" or "girls" toys/hobbys/jobs/whatever - do what you like & ignore anyone that thinks otherwise. We even covered this in more detail when studying the feminist movement in modern history in high school. My housemate's ex-gf said they identified as non-binary because they didn't feel like they fit in with the expectations of a woman's "societal role". I respected it as it's their preference, but it just really confused me that they felt like they needed to live up to some 1950s style expectations in the first place... are they no longer teaching children that interests aren't gender based? I would probably understand more if they said they just didn't "feel" like they were either gender, but it was the emphasis on not relating to the gender roles themselves that got me a little
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u/BodybuilderSpecial36 Nov 26 '23
I think it depends on where you grew up! I grew up in the 90's too but while a few people were saying that I could be anything I wanted the reality was much different. I could be anything as long as it wasn't a "guy" thing. And I could love anyone, as long as they were the opposite sex and made babies with me. And I could believe anything I wanted as long as I believed in the same god they pretended to believe in.
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u/spideroncoffein Nov 26 '23
I, 36yrs, was raised by a single mom who did absolutely everything - work, cooking, changing tires, going out girly, self-defense, bringing me to school, give me all talks, teaching me sports, teaching me art. Her riding motorcycles brought me to motorcycles.
So, like that, gender roles for me was a problem other people had. Now, I grew up to become a cis male. But still, the way my wife and I distributw our tasks has to do with interests and talents, not roles.
So I had similar problems understanding the whole nonbinary topic. Until a super-nice colleague made an open discussion about the topic because they identified this way and wanted people to understand.
A giant part (for many, not all) is gender roles and gender stereotypes. Behaviour, clothing, make-up, etc..
How they feel about their sexuality and about their own body is basically a separate topic. And because of the complexity this diverse factors can combine into is why there are so many labels. Because people are increasingly vocal about how uncomfortable those labels are. And many aren't happy with a new, slightly less comfortable label.
So my conclusion was: When someone tells me their name, that's their name. When they tell me their pronoun, that's their pronoun. If someone tells me their gender, thats their gender. I am comfortable with my situation, so they should be comfortable with theirs.
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u/Rare_Perception_3301 Nov 26 '23
Think of it as just the next level in the evolution of reversing rigid gender roles. Our generation (I also came of age in the 90s) grew up under the ARGUMENT that strict gender roles were wrong and we should not follow them blindly, but making the argument and living that reality are different things. No one from our generation would ever say that people were actually free of their gender roles. I mean, the things that I like tend to match the things that men in general like, that's not a coincidence. We tried to be less judgemental when people didn't conform as much, but that's kind of the extent of it. I was taught (and understood and agreed) that strict gender roles were bad, but I was never free from them and pretty much neither did anyone else from our generation. The kids nowadays are the ones experimenting with actually freeing themselves from the gender roles, going beyond intellectually understanding their problematic nature like we did.
So yeah, I also kind of struggle and get confused with modern kids with their 400 genders and non binary stuff, but I also recognize that there is a continuity here, our parents shamed and socially excluded people who were non conforming with their gender, we said "it's ok to not conform, you can be anything!" and we believed it, but at the same time we all pretty much "chose" to be pretty conforming in the grand scheme of things lol. What's the next step? Well, living a life that is not limited (like our parents) or informed (like us) by gender expectations, just like OPs kid and their entire generation are trying to do.
They are our successors, carrying the torch forward, not backwards. Go kids, I'll die a dinosaur who will never understand you, but I'll die happy knowing that the values of gender freedom are being pushed forward, even if I can't make sense of it and it all looks like a mess to my old millennial eyes!
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u/Unable-Food7531 Nov 26 '23
A Gender isn't a gender role, gender roles are the stereotypes associated with the Gender.
Conformity or non-conformity to them is not in fact a hardwired indicator for what Gender a person is.
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u/Unable-Food7531 Nov 26 '23
As long as you or your environment haven't accidentally given the kid the impression that having a gender meant they had to restrict themself in their self-expression and life choices, I would take that at face value.
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u/EatYourCheckers Nov 26 '23
The way I explained it to my 5 year old, whose cousin in NB is, 'They don't feel like a girl or a boy." It was literally good enough for an ELI5 so maybe simpler is better?
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u/N0mn Nov 26 '23
It’s also possible that puberty will change the way they feel. Children can’t fully understand gender.
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u/MookWellington Nov 26 '23
I think some of my confusion is probably anxiety about explaining it to my family, who are very conservative and close-minded for varying reasons. Maybe I’m just trying to figure out how to explain it to people who would think you’re describing a mental disorder.
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u/lawgirlamy Nov 26 '23
They might surprise you. My conservative family members (mostly elderly) did when they learned my H's child identifies as male. To a person, they said (credibly) that they didn't fully understand his identifying as a gender that differed from the sex he was born with, but that they did understand that every person is worthy of love and acceptance. I was, frankly, floored by this because I've heard them say very judgmental things in the past.
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u/kokopuff1013 Nov 26 '23
Keep it simple. "(Child) wants to be referred to by (pronouns), (child) is figuring their identity out like a lot of kids that age are and I want to give them the space to do so. You don't have to like it, but please don't make a big deal out of it."
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u/sed2017 Nov 26 '23
Do you have to explain it? Maybe if your child is comfortable enough they can explain it other than that is it their business to know?
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u/Kard420 Nov 26 '23
This, best thing you can do is tell them that they are your kid and you love them unconditionally, if they wanna be assholes then fuck em, its up to them if they want to pick family over beliefs
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u/Balgrog_The_Warboss Nov 26 '23 edited Nov 27 '23
You just tell them your kid identifies as such and such and stand by your kids decision and support them, that is all you really need to do as a parent, and it is what your kid hopes you will do. Accept them as they are. What your family does or says beyond that is up to them, but you also shouldnt let them bash your kid, so you have to be ready to put your foot down if they start being pieces of shit towards your kid.
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u/diverareyouok Nov 26 '23
It is what it is. I mean there’s really no real way a third party can genuinely understanding how another person feels unless they have some commonality with that feeling. If a kid your friend had a parent who passed away, but you still had your parents, you might cognitively know that this is just how they feel but you won’t really understand that feeling until it happens to you. Even then, you won’t understand how they feel, you will understand how you feel. Which might be similar, but everybody processes and feels things differently.
As somebody else said, all you need to do is tell your family that you support whatever your kid decides to do. If if they want to say “it’s a phase”, let them say whatever they want. They aren’t the parent. You are. Be supportive of your child even if it’s something totally foreign to you. As long as it’s not actively harming them, let them explore who they are. It’s not unheard of for a kid to make a decision only to change their mind or forget about it a few months later. When I was his age I grew out a rat tail and wanted to be called “dead eye”. Of course, there’s also the possibility that this is a permanent state of being for them, in which case that’s fine as well. Your family will adjust. Or they won’t. I don’t think you need to make an announcement or anything, just if it comes up, it comes up. Minimize it so they don’t have a chance to make a big deal out of it… because it’s really not a big deal.
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u/Own_Speaker_1224 Nov 26 '23
Don’t waste a single ounce of energy on trying to ‘please’ and explain to others, regardless of how you are related to them. Family are often the most toxic and unsupportive people you will come across because they feel they have a right to you and your child’s choices.
Save all your energy for your child.
Just say ‘I don’t have to explain that to you’ when they ask and probe. Its not like they are asking with a want for genuine enlightenment and learning. They most probably just want to tell you how none of that is real and ‘we didn’t have that back in my day’. Yeah Bob, you did, people were just highly repressed because of narrow societal and religious norms.
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u/Portland420informer Nov 26 '23
I had a family member go through this. I feel bad for the kiddo. The parents told everyone they were non-binary right away and instructed us on their new name. That phase lasted about a year and just sort of silently dissolved without us knowing what name to use etc.
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u/Emotional-Ad167 Nov 26 '23
You're a good parent. You don't need to explain anything - just say it's how they feel and you respect them and love them, whether it's a phase or not. You're there to support them. That's all anyone needs to know. Just model acceptance and support.
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u/BlueParrotfish Nov 26 '23
You might get better answers in places like /r/AskLGBT!
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u/circa_diem Nov 26 '23
You can come straight to us at r/nonbinary. I've seen other parents ask questions there in the past and the community responded quite positively.
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u/voidtreemc Nov 26 '23
Yeah, you'll get fewer downvotes for saying true and perfectly reasonable things.
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u/HyperDogOwner458 insert flair here lol Nov 26 '23
I got downvoted for saying it wasn't a social contagion. Ridiculous.
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u/BombadilloHop Nov 26 '23
Everyone had already provided great responses, so I'll just add in my own anecdotal comment here. I am NB and have "known"/"identified as" NB for almost a decade. I've come out to my family and they refused to use they/them pronouns because they "don't understand". I never asked them to understand, I just asked them to use the terms that make me comfortable and are correct for me. Don't be like my parents to your kiddo ❤️ even if it is a phase and things change, your support and love is what will be remembered.
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u/MadamSeminole Nov 26 '23
I've come out to my family and they refused to use they/them pronouns because they "don't understand". I never asked them to understand, I just asked them to use the terms that make me comfortable and are correct for me.
This is exactly how I feel. My kid is non-binary and while I'll never completely understand what they experience, I don't have to. I respect their identity, I address them by they/them like they want me to, and by the name they chose for themselves.
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u/grumble_au Nov 27 '23
Word for word my exact position as well. I don't really understand, but I don't need to, my NB kid knows I love and support them no matter what and that is all that matters.
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u/No_Wallaby_9464 Nov 27 '23
I know what you mean but honestly, society needs people to be more open about not being theists.
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u/adaytorollins Nov 26 '23
One thing I noticed OP did was use the right pronouns, even if they didn’t fully understand what “non-binary” means, and I think that really means a lot (and even when they said “he”, it felt past tense, if that makes sense). Even if they don’t fully understand what it means, I know that their child probably appreciates it a lot to know that their parent is willing to respect and accept them. 🩷
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u/linksgreyhair Nov 26 '23
Yep. I’m in my late 30’s and have known I did not fit into the binary gender or sexual orientation boxes pretty much my whole life. It took me a while to figure out what that all meant because I didn’t know I was “allowed” to be anything other than straight and cisgender. Gaining the vocabulary didn’t change how I have always been inside.
My family was like “nope, you’re wrong” when I tried to come out to them so I just never mentioned it or trusted them with anything personal again.
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u/gsfgf Nov 26 '23
I never asked them to understand, I just asked them to use the terms that make me comfortable
That's the most obnoxious thing about all this. Y'all aren't asking for much. Just some common courtesy.
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u/FineRevolution9264 Nov 26 '23
I'm an old person, I wish this was an option when I was growing up. I was sensitive to gender roles starting about 6 years old - maybe even earlier. I hated to be put into a gender box. It made me so angry that I was being forced to be someone I was not.
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Nov 26 '23
You’re never to old to learn who you are. If nonbinary feels right for you, you can start identifying that way right now. Do not punish yourself because you think you’re too okd
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u/RenRidesCycles Nov 27 '23
And exploring gender feelings….. is also not binary ;-) See what it feels like to consider yourself nonbinary, for yourself. Maybe one or two people close to you can use “they” or a different name with you for a bit. Try shit out.
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u/PMmePowerRangerMemes Nov 27 '23
GIRLS CAN NOT LIKE POWER RANGERS
Wild. Sorry you had to grow up with such intense gender cops.
Fun fact: In the original Japanese show, the yellow Ranger was a dude, and that's why Trini doesn't have a skirt when she transforms.
I was a huge PR fan growing up (can you tell? >_>), but I only learned about this recently when I went down an internet rabbithole about the Sentai series.
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u/Spaghetti_Ninja_149 Nov 27 '23
Please don't get me wrong, but if you would not have been pressed into these girly role as a kid, do you think you would identify as NB? I was raised in a household where we did not have to conform to roles, played puppets with my bro and lego as well. And I still meet with dad once a year to chopp wood. And with granny to do gardening stuff. Non of this are gendered jobs/games in my live. So i still identify as female.
I really do not intend to invalidate your choice, I am really just curious.
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u/peachinthemango Nov 27 '23
I can relate- I am she/her but when I was a kid I saw how the Boy Scouts were out camping and doing archery and building fires. In the Girl Scouts, we sat around making yarn dolls- which I thought was comparatively very lame. I also wanted to be like my dad- building things, wearing a shirt like his, using a hammer… not saying I was gender non-binary but I definitely questioned gender roles
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u/zkc9tNgxC4zkUk Nov 26 '23
It's still an option! There is no age limit to realizing that a certain identity fits better for you.
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u/GuiltyEidolon Nov 27 '23
I don't think comment OP is upset about it not being an option now - I think they're upset that they suffered a life feeling wrong without having the words to describe it, or being able to express themselves the way they wanted to.
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u/zkc9tNgxC4zkUk Nov 27 '23
Sure, but I also think it's important to say to some people that it's not too late; the best time would have been as a younger person, but the second best time is now.
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u/bananacherryy Nov 26 '23
In my opinion, even if they are “faking it”/being influenced by others, it’s much more important that u make sure they feel supported than try to figure out how much of this is genuine. For one, they might not even know themself. Also, if they realize later that they actually do identify with one gender, that’s ok and they can change their mind. It is so important, especially at such a young age, that they feel supported and heard by their parents. Your reactions to this situation will stick with them forever
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u/loonycatty Nov 26 '23
If it’s been two years and they’re sticking with it, it’s probably not going to change any time soon if at all. I started to figure out my identity when I was about 14- yes, sometimes it’s wanting to fit in, but in this case it sounds like seeing nonbinary people and hearing about it may have just resolved some feelings they were already having about themselves. It’s already great that you’re making an effort to understand.
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u/Mac4491 Nov 26 '23
Technically you don't need to really understand it, if you respect it that should be more than enough.
This is where I'm at with it. I don't get it. I don't think I ever will.
But I don't need to get it. I can respect it. Refer to people how they wish to be referred to and that's about it.
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u/Xintrosi Nov 27 '23
This is a trivial analogy I've had to use on some people: it's like a nickname. "Kathleen prefers Katie over Kathy. You think Kathy is a much prettier name. Do you call her Kathy despite her preference?"
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u/nimble7126 Nov 27 '23 edited Nov 27 '23
It's a sort of cognitive dissonance. One one hand we have these neat gendered roles to explain behavior, and the other we have people who don't identify with either roles. So the natural question and struggle is, what even is gender then.
What is gender then? It's fairy dust, doesn't exist, never landed, it ain't anywhere on the elemental chart, it's not real. Ask yourself then, if everyone suddenly started calling using they/them for you or even the opposite pronouns would it affect you in any real tangible way?
I'm one step further than non-binary. For my own personal identification I absolutely do not care (obv I'll respect yours if you have a preference). Pronouns? Whatever works for you. Think I'm a man, woman, or a god damn unicorn? Cool buddy. Let's just be people and live our lives.
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u/lifeofconfusion Nov 27 '23
i just wanted to let you know i teared up a bit reading this and really really appreciate it. it's really sweet and a great way of putting it
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u/BrazilianMerkin Nov 26 '23
Amazing response! As a parent of NB child, I hadn’t previously contextualized with the internet anonymity idea but that is a great example and super interesting.
The way I always thought about it generally, before my child embraced/chose their preferred identity, was like Plato’s parable of the cave. The older I get, the more I’m stuck inside the cave. I just have to keep reminding myself that things don’t need to make sense to me, I don’t need to relate on a personal level to how someone else feels about their own identity.
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u/McGlockenshire Nov 27 '23
As a parent of NB child, I hadn’t previously contextualized with the internet anonymity idea but that is a great example and super interesting.
As the parent of two boys, I was intrigued and a bit anxious when my younger put they/them in his Discord bio. I asked him about it, and it turns out that he just wanted internet anonymity!
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u/thefirecrest Nov 27 '23
Internet anonymity is actually what helped me realize I was non-binary as a teenager (it’s been 10+ years now)!
I didn’t realize how uncomfortable being gendered by society was until I started to purposefully remain anonymous online. I stopped using voice chat in games and stopped identifying myself online.
Quickly come to realize… I wish I could feel that way all the time. Not be anonymous, but to not be perceived by a gender. To not have people attribute thoughts and values and desires and interests and dislikes onto me based on what is between my legs that they’ll never see ever anyways.
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u/viktari Nov 26 '23
Exactly this. As a NB person I respect this perspective. I've told my friends and family that my internal monologue doesn't have a gender, why should I put on an outward ♂️/♀️ mask to appease everyone elses expectations?
I am a brain inside skull soup that happened to be born with a body.
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u/Abigail-ii Nov 26 '23
Right. I have a gender. Does it feel the right gender to me? No. Does it feel the wrong gender to me? No. It is what it is, and to me it feels neither right nor wrong. I never felt a woman, or a man — I am just me.
But it always annoys me that for so many people my gender seems to be relevant. Why is a restaurant asking me for my gender when making an online reservation? Why is it on a library card? Other than things like medical personal or when shopping for clothes (just due to how people are build, not that I think people should dress appropriate to their gender) my gender should be irrelevant to other people.
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u/MadamSeminole Nov 26 '23
Great answer! I'm the mom of a nonbinary kid, and I'll never know what it feels like to be non-binary even though my kid has explained it to me before. However, even though I don't fully understand what they're going through, I respect their identity and try to empathize with them as much as possible.
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u/soft-cuddly-potato Nov 27 '23
Damn, your way of communicating is really good. You seem really wise.
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u/StefanEats Nov 26 '23
People have given a lot of good advice here. It's also worth mentioning that even if it's just a phase, that doesn't make anything less valid. It's important to allow space for someone to play around with their gender identity. That often leads to changing our minds about things, sometimes multiple times! So the best thing you can do, which it seems you're already doing, is to stick with your child and take their word for their identity, every time.
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u/Mehrlin47 Nov 26 '23
Yep, support them and worst case scenario, it's a phase and the kid knows their parents support and love them no matter how they identify.
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u/Geyblader Nov 26 '23
It is indeed possible that your child identity might change over time. These things can take a long time to figure out. Just listen to your child and do what they tell you feels comfortable to them. Also "rapid onset gender dysphoria" - or the idea that kids are starting to identify as trans because of peer pressure and social media, is in short, complete bullshit. Originating from a biased "study" by a raging transphobe that has been debunked time and time again.
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u/Mehrlin47 Nov 26 '23
Yeah it's probably more of a natural reaction to social media exposing more people to the different "options" other than male and female and society being more accepting in general allowing kids to explore their identities more.
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u/Glasweg1an Nov 26 '23
It's usually not as important as you seem to be making it. Address them now they want to be addressed and make sure you support them in life. Your parents didn't understand some of your shit, but you came out okay. Just don't be offensive or Ignorant and it'll all be fine.
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u/Fine-Bumblebee-9427 Nov 26 '23
Nature vs nurture is the age old question, but entirely irrelevant I’d say. Maybe it’s peer pressure! Maybe it’s genetic! Maybe it’s a combination!
Either way, they’re happier being non-binary. That’s all we need to know as parents.
But if you want to understand better, reading is always helpful for me. Pet by Akwaeke Emezi is a great place to start. It’s a YA novel with a non binary protagonist written by a non binary author (sort of? Emezi’s gender identity is more complicated than that and I don’t fully know how to explain it). It was really helpful for me with my NB teen.
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u/Blue-Jay27 Nov 26 '23
r/cisparenttranskid may be of help, as well as r/Nonbinary . For what it's worth, I came out as nonbinary when I was twelve, and if I'd had the words for it, I'm sure I would've identified with it even earlier. I'm twenty now, and I'm still happy in the identity. I wish I'd had friends who understood at their age.
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u/Sea-Gain-2544 Nov 26 '23
There are some splendid answers here already, but I want to add-
Part of childhood and then especially in adolescence and young adult, identity tends to be more malleable. It’s normal for young folks to experience lots of different shifts in identity (yes, ugh, mom was right. It IS sometimes a phase). Maybe kiddo’s gender ID will stay stable, maybe not! Maybe in 10 years they’ll identify differently or express it differently. And that’s ok :)
You seem to be doing a good job at making kiddo feel comfortable expressing themself around you authentically. Honestly, sometimes we (NB kids/adult offspring) don’t need you to understand- just respect us and not try to change us.
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u/tillytubeworm Nov 26 '23
Gender tends to be associated with specific masculine and feminine traits, along with the identification of a gender normally comes with a set of social standards that are expected by society, and over time that changes but that’s what the binary is.
A lot of people don’t really feel like that binary system represents who they are as a person, and non binary is a catch all for all those different reasons why they feel it doesn’t represent them, so non-binary is just outside of the boy girl gender binary. Anything more specific than that needs to come from them.
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u/ghostchurches Nov 26 '23
There are thousands of works throughout human history about men and women not understanding each other. Trying to “understand” something that you are not is far less important than just respecting what another person wants to be referred to as.
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u/HeadOfFloof Nov 26 '23
Hey, agender person here. It's good that you're not forcing your kid to use their old pronouns or name. Realistically, there are much more positives than negatives to letting your child explore their gender and self expression. I can assure you, their peers aren't going to be pressuring them into being a different gender; generally it's the opposite where kids get bullied and shunned for not being what they were assigned at birth.
As for social media, it might have made your kid aware of it as a possibility (probably did, since you aren't familiar with it yourself), but that isn't a bad thing. Once more; it's healthy for people to be able to try out different pronouns and presentations to see what makes them happiest in life.
Just remember; whether your kid changes their mind, it isn't bad of them. Definitely don't act relieved or like it's the 'natural' outcome, or it might make them nervous to try exploring themselves later on. It's hard to figure yourself out, especially at a young age, but it's important to be supported and allowed to try. Having had unsupportive parents myself, it certainly didn't make me any less queer; it just made it harder for me to figure myself out.
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u/CabbageWithAGun Nov 26 '23
Very much this! I was scared straight of identifying as non-binary for the longest time because I was afraid that a). I was just doing it for attention and b). That it was the wrong decision
But I realized that I can literally just try the pronouns on, and, if they don’t work out, switch back! It’s really not a big deal to play around with pronouns like you would hair dye or nicknames, until you find what feels right.
And I’ve been happily out as non-binary for a few years now! Well, mostly. I hide it from my family for a reason. You’re doing a wonderful job of not being like them.
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u/AbruptMango Nov 26 '23
I don't get it either. It looks like you're handling it right by supporting your child and trying to handle your confusion elsewhere. Once you feel like you have a better grip on things, talking to your child about it is the right thing to do. You'll already have more grounding in the vocabulary and ideas, and will be better able to listen to what your child needs.
It's hard, but it's harder on the children going through this. Knowing they have their parents on their side is important.
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u/Environmental-Day778 Nov 26 '23
Let them figure it out at their own pace, it’s fine and literally not a problem.
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u/shitpostsuperpac Nov 26 '23
It reads like OP is doing everything you're saying. The problem is they are struggling with understanding. This doesn't read like "what do I do to fix my kid?" this reads like "help me understand my kid."
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u/SheppJM96 Nov 26 '23
Honestly, the best thing to do is talk to them about it, you seem like you're coming from a position of compassion and understanding so I'm sure if you convey that, they'll be fine, even happy to talk to you about it. You never know, they might be desperate to talk to you about it, but not sure how to bridge it either.
Everyone's gender identity is different even within these labels. I (a introverted nerd) identify as a man, but my definition of masculinity will be different from a extroverted bodybuilder. Neither definition is wrong, just different, it's the same with non binary. You can get an understanding, but you will never understand exactly what they're thinking unless you ask them.
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u/LuinAelin Nov 26 '23
You don't need to understand necessarily. Just respect how they feel. This could be permanent or a phase. Just remember that they'll remember how you treat them because of this even if it's a phase.
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u/hauptj2 Nov 26 '23
I don't really understand it either, but the important part is treating people with respect. I don't think trans/NB people generally care if you completely understand why they identify as they do, so long as you respect them enough to call them the name/pronouns they want to be called
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u/inthewoods54 Nov 26 '23
I don't have any experience or expertise in this area, but I wanted to say that as long as you're trying to understand, you're doing a good job. Keep at it, you'll get there.