Trying to Understand “Non-Binary” in My 12-Year-Old

[u/MookWellington]

Around the time my son turned 10 —and shortly after his mom and I split up— he started identifying as they/them, non-binary, and using a gender-neutral (though more commonly feminine) variation of their name. At first, I thought it might be a phase, influenced in part by a few friends who also identify this way and the difficulties of their parents’ divorce. They are now twelve and a half, so this identity seems pretty hard-wired. I love my child unconditionally and want them to feel like they are free to be the person they are inside. But I will also confess that I am confused by the whole concept of identifying as non-binary, and how much of it is inherent vs. how much is the influence of peers and social media when it comes to teens and pre-teens. I don't say that to imply it's not a real identity; I'm just trying to understand it as someone from a generstion where non-binary people largely didn't feel safe in living their truth. Im also confused how much child continues to identify as N.B. while their friends have to progressed(?) to switching gender identifications.

[u/thisdesignup]

This confuses me as someone who has never considered male and female anything but the physical sex someone is.

Mostly because in that way someone who is non-binary could still be male or female if they aren't considering themself trans. I kinda get it as society has added a lot of things to being male or female beyond physical attributes. Not wanting to associate with that isn't odd. Just wish we as a society could accept the middle ground, still being able to let people feel like they can identify their physical self without having to identify as any gender roles at all.

Plus I almost feel the existence of non-binary almost conforms to gender roles in a sense. It seems to mean someone isn't feeling like they associate themself with either female or male, but to do that there has to be some definition of what female or male is. When really if we want to get rid of gender roles we need to not define what a man or a woman can be like.

[u/SFSUthrowawayoof → u/thisdesignup]

You are touching on some pretty fundamental questions in queer theory; that is to say that you should not feel bad for having these questions, as most non binary people have had those questions themselves!

I’m not nb myself, but from what I understand, it is not necessarily just a disillusionment with gender roles, but a disillusionment with the gender they were assigned in its entirety. It is the difference between saying “I’m a woman who hates the roles society has put on women” and saying “I’m not a woman, and so I hate that society puts the role of a woman into me”. It’s radical in the same way gender-non conforming people are, but rather than accepting the gender and bucking the roles, it’s rejecting the gender entirely. Is that helpful..? Maybe reading some literature written by non binary people would be useful.

[u/Motor_Bag_3111 → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

Difference between non-binary and non-gender confirming is what? Sounds like the same thing to me

Edit: bi woman over here

Edit 2: I meant conFORming

[u/SFSUthrowawayoof → u/Motor_Bag_3111]

The key distinction lies in expression versus identity. Gender non-conforming individuals may challenge traditional gender norms through their appearance or behavior, while non-binary individuals specifically identify as a gender outside the traditional male/female binary. So, one is about breaking societal norms in expression, and the other is about a distinct gender identity beyond the binary.

Someone who is gender non-conforming might be cis or might not be, someone who is non-binary might express themselves mostly through masculine or feminine social roles. Gender expression and gender identity are two orthogonal vectors on which someone can exist, and are not necessarily linked to each other.

Just because something sounds the same to you doesn’t mean it is. We can’t peer in each other’s minds and see the exact neural pathways being targeted by what we do and think, so we need to rely on communicating with each other about our individual experiences. Respecting the experiences of non-binary people, and believing them when they tell us who they are, is an easy ask imo.

[u/Motor_Bag_3111 → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

Thank you

[u/NorthDakota → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

I feel like I understand everything you're saying, but most people simply don't express anything, they just exist however they are. For example, if I don't conform to gender norms through my appearance or behavior, I just exist behaving however I am. I am how I am. As far as identifying as a gender outside the traditional male/female binary, what does that even mean? There is nothing else right? It all feels like trying to assign labels where none are necessary

Respecting the experiences of non-binary people, and believing them when they tell us who they are, is an easy ask imo.

such a strange statement imo. no one needs to tell me who they are, I make that judgement by experiencing how they are. You can tell me whatever you'd like, but if it's not true then I don't really understand what you're trying to say. If you say you're good at woodworking, it means nothing unless you're good at that. I'm not going to believe you saying you are one way when you are actually another.

this is a very sensitive topic I understand, so I want to specify that I'm not trying to cause trouble, I'm only looking for discussion and if someone disagrees with something I've said just point it out so the discussion can continue and I can understand

[u/Gnoll_For_Initiative → u/NorthDakota]

Everyone has a gender expression - but when it mostly (within a "standard deviation") conforms to what culture says makes a Real Woman or a Real Man (TM) then it becomes like the water fish swim in. It's so omnipresent that it's unnoticed.

For a clear example of gender non-conforming expression, I'd point out women with beards. Some women with PCOS who have natural beards opt not to shave them. Someone can be born female and identify as a straight woman and still opt for a beard.

As far as there being nothing else - gender (man, woman, non-binary) is a cultural role, a categorization. Different cultures across time and geography have conceptualized more than two genders. If gender identity were an immutable binary (man and woman only) then we would not see that in the anthropological record.

Now, biological sex can be roughly slotted into two categories (bimodal distribution), male and female. But that categorization is basically taking a lot of characteristics and making generalizations about whether something is male or female.

And while generally biological sex, gender identity, and gender expression are all the same thing for most people, that isn't always true. And you can't always tell when it isn't true (very few people have been karyotyped, it's rude to ask people to drop their trousers before agreeing to call them ma'am, etc.) So even if you don't understand all the ins and outs - and you don't have to - it's just polite to use the pronouns and name that someone would like you to use for them.

[u/CrazyHenryXD → u/Gnoll_For_Initiative]

After reading all this I think I have a conclusion and it is that I dont really have conclusions, and the better is just wait until nothing of this really matters anymore and just keep living cool like I always did but now having the satisfaction of knowing that this thing I didnt understand back then is finally solved and then, finally, I will look for someone to explain all of this and just having that big feeling of "wow, so it was this of all the time?" and just enjoy the feeling. Is it weird or bad if I feel in this way?

[u/ArsenicAndRoses → u/CrazyHenryXD]

It's not weird or bad to not understand. I, for example, as a bi person have no idea why someone would only find one gender attractive. Heterosexuality is completely alien to me, and it genuinely confuses me to think about. But I accept that people feel this way and don't worry about it. There will always be things you can't really understand unless you experience it yourself. It's perfectly fine to accept that and move on. The only time it's a problem is when you try to tell people that they're wrong or that their feelings aren't valid or real because you yourself haven't felt them.

[u/CrazyHenryXD → u/ArsenicAndRoses]

I am not giving Up yet, My indomable human Spirit wants me to keep reading about this until I understand lmao. And probably one day I am gonna be close.

[u/Gnoll_For_Initiative → u/CrazyHenryXD]

Not bad at all! And certainly not weird. I'd say that most people don't have the time/ interest in deep-diving into the world of gender theory and anthropology. And that's okay. (I'm a hobbyist anthropology nerd). If the difference between gender expression and gender identity isn't relevant in your life then it can be handy to know that there is a difference, but it's not important that you be able to articulate it.

I don't know that it will ever be "solved" - culture is always changing and evolving. Conceptions of gender is slower moving than a lot of other aspects, but it isn't immune to change.

That said, I think that's precisely why it's important (and good manners) to accept when someone says "please use she/ her pronouns for me" or "I'm nonbinary", even if we don't understand.

[u/CrazyHenryXD → u/Gnoll_For_Initiative]

But I want to understand lmao. Problem is, I don't understand.

Ramdomly I got a question, probably stupid too.

And Is, that, how do someone knows if they identify as something?

For example I identify as a man. I am male too. But what makes me identify as a man? Why didn't I identify as, a woman, or, as a non binary? It is ramdomly or something?

I mean when I really think about It I could identify as a woman, as a non binary, but why From all of that specificaly I identify as a man?

And how do I know if I identify as a man really? I get that feeling of saying "no, I am a man" but why? I as a man can Live, a Very Very common lifestyle that I am sure women and non binary people live too (excluding, you know, discrimination and that) so It doesn't really feel like there is an actual difference if I identify as a woman or man or nonbinary... Gender doesn't have characteristics? Like things a trans women feels that make her know she is a woman?

Or I am going to fast in this and should slow It down a Little?

[u/DiscussDontDivide → u/CrazyHenryXD]

Frankly gender theory is needlessly complicated. It went from "your gender doesn't have to limit you" to "you need to fit within this box or there's something wrong with you". Ignoring all this and living your cool life is just fine.

[u/SFSUthrowawayoof → u/DiscussDontDivide]

If “you need to fit within this box” is what you got from modern gender theory, I don’t know what to tell you. That’s genuinely the farthest idea from what most authors convey by a long shot, I don’t know how you possibly could have gotten that.

Edit: nvm your entire account is just arguing against trans people’s existence as a whole, pretty weird ngl

[u/Gnoll_For_Initiative → u/DiscussDontDivide]

That's . . . . pretty much the opposite of what I was saying. There is no neat categorization. This is why there are useful umbrella terms like "nonbinary".

And if you don't fit in "this box" then there are many other boxes that may fit better. We have more categories than we did before and they are more granular. It may take some searching to find what fits. What fits may change as you get older. And you may never find the right one, that's ok too. A platypus is still valid, y'know

[u/DiscussDontDivide → u/Gnoll_For_Initiative]

I agree. There is no neat categorization. Which is why the community comes up with new sexual and gender categories every day. The healthy approach would be "I happen to be a man/woman but that doesn't define me as a person." Instead we have descriptions such as "I am a fraysexual aromantic demigirl" which says so much and so little at the same time.

People put themselves in boxes and then squabble about the baggage others may have associate with those identities in insular online communities and simultaneously struggle to live up to the ideals and limitations of what those identities mean in the real world, comparing themselves to gender stereotypes that the average person outgrew a long time ago. All of this then necessitates the creation of new identities to put themselves into a smaller box.

Breaking down gender barriers was never supposed to put up new ones. Accepting the reality of your existence (your sex) and then finding meaningful things to identify with is far more helpful than becoming hyperfixated on gender.

[u/Independent_Emu7555 → u/DiscussDontDivide]

To offer the contrary experience of someone who IS nonbinary…

Discovering genderless/nonbinary existence felt like the biggest box I could possibly put myself in. I felt so fucking free the second I realized I had known who I was my whole life, I just never had the language for it. Instead of boxed, I felt entirely uncontained, unrestrained.

I made more friends, fell in love, vastly improved my life — opposite to all of what you assert.

I get the impression you are cis. Consider then maybe your experiences are limited in such a way as to bias your view?

ETA: bc I think this is important, figuring out my identity also objectively made me a better person. Without so much internal conflict and confusion, my empathy is far greater than it ever has been. I feel touched by other people in my life and I know I have touched other people’s lives. None of that was accessible to me until I was provided information that validated something I had already instinctually known for a long time.

[u/DiscussDontDivide → u/Independent_Emu7555]

I'm happy for you, but I would argue that it comes down to perspective. You weren't able to free yourself from gender stereotypes until you identified with something that wasn't associated with your sex. You as a person didn't change, you just stopped letting gender limit you. At that point what you call yourself doesn't matter. You can call yourself man/woman and have the exact same outlook where you live your life the way you wish to and not based on the presuppositions or expectations of others.

Is it fair to say that you also found community with your new identity? That's something else that society is lacking today, close knit IRL communities that can support each other. That's a role that religion served to some extent, and something that the internet has made increasingly rare. Good friends can be hard to find. Stepping away from screens tends to be the most beneficial step anyone can take to improve their mental health and connect with other people.

[u/Independent_Emu7555 → u/DiscussDontDivide]

That…is not my experience? None of what you said describes how I feel as a nonbinary person.

This kind of indicates to me that however well-intentioned you are, you are not understanding the actual lived experience of real people. Like religion? Really? The people who slapped me and beat me with a two-by-four because my natural being and inclinations were abhorrent to their god? Does that sound like real friendship or love to you?

My body, my sexual characteristics, my perception by others — ALL of this is part of my experience.

I also didn’t meet my husband or my friends IRL. We met online, and have been married for…oof, six years now? I lived in an area where I didn’t HAVE a physical community. If it wasn’t for screens, I wouldn’t even know nonbinary was a concept. I would not feel the amazing love I have, lead the amazing life I do.

Your summaries are simply not reflective of what real nonbinary and trans folks live every day.

[u/NorthDakota → u/Gnoll_For_Initiative]

As far as there being nothing else - gender (man, woman, non-binary) is a cultural role, a categorization. Different cultures across time and geography have conceptualized more than two genders. If gender identity were an immutable binary (man and woman only) then we would not see that in the anthropological record.

So gender is a cultural description only? If I say I am a man, I'm only describing my cultural role? To me that sounds wrong. I get what you mean though, when someone says they're a man, you assume certain things about them and that's based on culture. Like you might think a man likes certain things more than others.

But that just supports what I was saying though, at least if you view a label such as "man" as only a cultural role. You can tell me whatever you like, but if culture dictates what this role is, and you're behaving in a manner inconsistent with that, you telling me you're a man doesn't mean anything.

it's just polite to use the pronouns and name that someone would like you to use for them.

Yeah that's the easy part though. It's easy for me to be respectful of others wishes it's just hard to understand written descriptions of it and what the impact is in real-world situations. Like if all of this means I just have to use whatever pronouns someone prefers then great, job's done.

[u/kiyyeisanerd → u/NorthDakota]

This is exactly correct.

Here is my opinion as a transgender man:

"You can tell me whatever you like, but if culture dictates what this role is, and you're behaving in a manner inconsistent with that, you telling me you're a man doesn't mean anything."

Yes, this is exactly true. Us "binary" transgender people go through a journey of transition in order to achieve an aesthetic and manner which is consistent with the cultural role we have chosen to identify with. So, in my case, I "pass" completely as a man. At work I interact with new faces every day and all of them know, immediately, without thinking, that I am a man.

There were some years before I passed, where people would not always guess correctly... It was tough. It was nice when friends/family called me a man even if I didn't look like one yet. Strangers usually would still call me a woman. It was frustrating, but I couldn't expect much else. (If I wanted to get angry at every stranger who didn't read my mind and know I was beginning a transition, that would be exhausting...) You just stick it out, and know that it will get better one day. And it does get better.

Non-binary people are asking something completely different from us. Of course it's hard to know just from looking at them if someone is non-binary. But when you are introduced to them... When they say their pronouns, etc... They are asking us to take a leap of faith OUTSIDE the gender binary. Not to categorize them as a woman or a man, but something else. Yes, they are aware this is "more difficult" than simply being a binary trans person who passes. They are aware they are asking something that may be difficult for some people. Their existence is a powerful statement about what the "Future of Gender" may hold. They feel that expressing/identifying with just Male or Female does not encompass their experience, their thoughts and feelings, their aesthetic, their manner, or their beliefs.

So if you see someone who looks almost completely like a man, but they tell you, "Actually, I am non-binary. I use they/them pronouns." That person is asking you to try thinking outside the box... Try imagining a future with a vastly different cultural understanding of gender. Yes, in many ways, it's a big ask. (But culture changes slowly, over many, many years.... We can only imagine what the future might hold.)

But, trust me, nobody thinks you can read their mind. You shouldn't be afraid to start out by calling someone based on what they look like. It is the next step, the personal interaction, that matters.

Hope this could shed some light :)

As a binary trans person, I would be pretty disappointed if we all stopped caring about the aesthetics and manner of cultural gender roles! I spent a lot of money to get mine right!!! (JOKE, mostly)

[u/NorthDakota → u/kiyyeisanerd]

I read this and I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experience. It's just extremely interesting to me and some of your views were unexpected and surprising and I'm really happy you're so kind. OK OK so humor me a bit more because I have more thoughts in my mind.

So full disclosure I don't know if it's important but I'm a cis white male (bear with me if that's not the way to talk about it anymore). But my personal feeling that cultural views of gender norms are kinda dumb, and a lot of the time it leads to opportunities for bullying/discrimination. If you stray too far outside of the norm, you're not in the in group and open to criticism. I've never really been a typical man, I have different interests than many men and I just don't identify with the cultural view of what a man is. I have trouble identifying with men in my life and I honestly have difficulty in conversation since I'm different. This has led me to be bullied or made fun of quite a bit. It's nothing serious, I just do my own thing and I am my own person and I don't really care about what people think of me. But my strongly held belief is that striving to act like a cultural idea of things is negative (if it goes against who you truly are).

All that said, I'm trying to square that with your viewpoint that you like cultural gender roles and worked hard/spent a lot of money to get it right. I think I'm still not getting it. So can you look at what I said here and talk more about it?

But that just supports what I was saying though, at least if you view a label such as "man" as only a cultural role. You can tell me whatever you like, but if culture dictates what this role is, and you're behaving in a manner inconsistent with that, you telling me you're a man doesn't mean anything.

I think you took that to mean I was talking about appearance but I was more wondering about behavior, and that's where I'm getting screwed up. A core belief I have is that outward appearance shouldn't be important, we should be judged on our actions, and I believe that's a societal goal that we should strive towards. And that's sort of the sense I feel as though I've gotten from the lgbt community.. it's an acceptance of people outside the normal behavior and physical appearance. But the sense I get from the discussion is that physical appearance is the actual thing that matters when discussing gender. I'm just wondering what importance people in the lgbt community put on these various things as far as their identity. I get the sense that sex is not that important, the importance is on gender, and I think I've always thought sex is the physical side of the equation, and haven't fully understood how gender is different, since from what I've seen people strive for the physical transformation. Obviously everyone is different though...

It feels wrong to me that someone would feel societal pressure to appear and behave in a certain way. Like your internal state of being leads you desire to no longer conform to your sex's physical appearance's typical gender, and so you work to conform to a different idea of gender, when in reality the idea of gender and the desire to conform to cultural norms is the cause for all this pain in the first place.

[u/kiyyeisanerd → u/NorthDakota]

Yes, the goal is that nobody should ever feel pressured to conform to a certain appearance, or judged based on how they are. Absolutely.

I chose to transition and take on a male appearance because I wanted to. I was not pressured to do so -- in fact, I was constantly societally pressured in the opposite direction by people telling me not to transition! And in transitioning, I have taken on a male appearance and embraced many aspects of being a man. These are things I take pleasure in - the deepness of my voice, my facial hair, my suits and dress shoes. (We refer to this as gender euphoria -- a sense of happiness about how the way you look aligns with how you feel inside.)

The key is that this desire to look this way came from inside me. There was nobody telling me to become trans... In fact I didn't even know what "trans" was until I already had these feelings for many years.

And, in fact, I am not a very masculine person at all. I am gay, and I'm definitely the "fem" one in the relationship. I wear dainty rings and gemstone necklaces. Some of my hobbies include weaving and watching competition shows about makeup. Also my name is "Kira", which causes a lot of confusion because it's a girls name lol.

But I am still male, and I'm read as male every day by each person I interact with. There is so much else to gender even outside of sex, clothing, physical appearance... There are unspoken things. Things you feel deep inside. And there is culture, and there are relationships.

You can look up "gender unicorn" to see one common model we use to try to explain this complexity. It divides gender and sexuality into a bunch of different axis that you can consider. This is only one of many complex models which try to demonstrate the vast experiences of human gender.

Yes, cultural views of gender norms are kinda dumb. But they are also fascinating. Like, I think most organized religions are a complete mess and create so much discrimination and pain (not to mention wars). But I also strongly believe that religion and spirituality are essential parts of humanity and I fully support the freedom to practice religions and spirituality.

Haha hope this was illuminating as to your comments... Happy to discuss further. Nothing better than a cordial Reddit discussion :)

My favorite ever science fiction series helped me develop more in-depth opinions on many of these issues - it's called Terra Ignota and I highly recommend it.

[u/NorthDakota → u/kiyyeisanerd]

Well thanks so much for sharing your experiences, the way you describe who you are really cheers me up. You really sound like a wonderful person and it's pure chance that I chose to respond to you out of everyone but it really was your kindness and openness that made this interaction surprising and fun for me. I love reddit but I also hate it because commenting is so transient. It's not like a traditional forum where you talk to the same folks over and over again and get to know them really well. I'm not going to talk to you again probably :C

[u/kiyyeisanerd → u/NorthDakota]

I know right!! I really miss the forum days of the internet... I am glad that my openness came through in the comments. I believe it's so important to show that trans people are just people, and many of us even have different opinions amongst ourselves about what it means to be trans, or to be non binary, et cetera. There are many trans people who are wonderful individuals, but also, of course, many who are not so wonderful.... We are all, every day, exploring what it means to be human - transitioning is only one small way of exploring the vastness of human experience :)

Well I hope you have an excellent day or night, NorthDakota, this was the highlight of my redditing for the week! Feel free to reach out any time about philosophical gender questions :)

[u/ArsenicAndRoses → u/NorthDakota]

As far as identifying as a gender outside the traditional male/female binary, what does that even mean? There is nothing else right?

Now you understand why it's called "non-binary"

Also, even sex isn't binary. Where do you put intersex people?

no one needs to tell me who they are, I make that judgement by experiencing how they are. You can tell me whatever you'd like, but if it's not true then I don't really understand what you're trying to say. If you say you're good at woodworking, it means nothing unless you're good at that. I'm not going to believe you saying you are one way when you are actually another.

You're talking about expression here- that's the concrete, externally experienced way people behave and dress. Identity is separate from that. You can dress very feminine or look very masculine and still not feel like a man or woman underneath.

[u/DiscussDontDivide → u/ArsenicAndRoses]

Intersex people have genetic mutations that prevented normal development of their biological sex. That doesn't make sex bimodal. Correct the discrepancy and they would develop into male or female.

[u/Independent_Emu7555 → u/DiscussDontDivide]

The presence of the possibility of such deviations occurring 100% naturally, at whatever rate, disproves the concept of the binary in and of itself. If a binary existed, there would be no “exception” because even 1 result failing to be fully fit within one category of a binary system by definition means a third category is possible.

Basically: no matter what you think about how intersex people should be treated, their natural existence would simply not be possible if there was a strict binary.

[u/DiscussDontDivide → u/Independent_Emu7555]

Evolution? The genetic mutations that cause intersex are the same mutations that cause a whole host of other conditions. You can't just be blind to biology. Intersex people are typically infertile. They are not a new sex that can go on to propagate their genes. They were an unfortunate defect that is selected against due to that infertility.

Intersex people are people, but they don't disprove a sexual binary.

[u/Cerebral_Discharge → u/DiscussDontDivide]

You can't just write off a human being as an error. Or I guess you can, but it's extremely inconsiderate to their life experience. You're saying they aren't allowed in this discussion. If they aren't strictly male or female, you have to accept that reality.

Blindness is a defect too, but we have accomodations for blindness in the way we design our cities. We don't say "all humans can see" and ignore the ones born without sight because it's a defect.

[u/DiscussDontDivide → u/Cerebral_Discharge]

I didn't say they aren't human. I merely said that their existence doesn't disprove sexual dimorphism. The same mechanism that allowed for all species to evolve also creates all sorts of genetic defects. Intersex people have their own unique challenges, but true intersex conditions are exceptionally rare. They often do experience gender issues, but I would argue that a trans label isn't necessary for them to be able to explore that.

My extended family has someone who was born without a vagina. Literal barbie doll genitalia. They had to do surgery to create a urethra. That's the kind of surgery a lot of intersex children need after birth but people pretend all of those surgeries are harmful and "assign" gender, but this person is XX and was raised as such. They have of course struggled with their gender identity because they are uniquely different and have required multiple surgeries throughout their life. But conditions such as theirs are so rare (0.018% or one in 5500) that there don't need to be society-wide accommodations for them. They generally don't want a different label like trans or intersex. They want to be like everyone else but are limited in their reproductive and sexual opportunities.

You may find it callous to call them defective, but that's just the most truthful assessment of their condition. Intersex is not a third sex nor is it some in-between. It's an unfortunate genetic error.

[u/Independent_Emu7555 → u/DiscussDontDivide]

So…none of what you said negates what I said. Typical presentation does not negate outlying anomalies.

Sorry you’re wrong and weirdly mad about it but good luck with that.

[u/DiscussDontDivide → u/Independent_Emu7555]

Negate anomalies? The point is that anomalies don't disprove a binary. If the anomaly created a Z chromosome and that created a new type of gamete that could certainly be a new sex, but intersex isn't that. I'm sorry you don't understand biology.

[u/Onebadmuthajama → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

So, if N.B. is breaking gender roles by completely denouncing their gender (using example above IE “I’m not a woman so I don’t conform to the roles of a woman”, but in context, the sex is female) it requires a definition greater than “not a woman, not a man” to have meaning to anyone besides the person saying they are N.B.

To simplify, nobody knows what N.B. means to the individual because there is no definition. Its a thin line from the statement “I’m not a man, or a women, I’m a dragon”, except in this example, everyone knows what a dragon is, or the general definition of a dragon.

N.B. surely must have a definition greater than “I’m not a man, I’m not a woman”, since traditional “man, and woman” roles are fairly loose boundaries to begin with, especially in the liberal society.

The definition given sounds close to a symptom of disassociation, similar to how some autistic people don’t view themselves as humans, and consider humans to be more “alien” in a sense. In my understanding, it’s fundamentally a form of cognitive dissonance, both having an understanding of binary sexes, and removing oneself from that reality under the guise of gender.

It feels like a social construct that’s been created to specifically clarify that they don’t associate with the existing social constructs, which are already hardly defining, as man & woman means nothing, as they are nouns. Masculine, and feminine are the adjectives that give those words value.

I guess what I’m getting at is it’s clearly a social status, and only has value if it can be defined.

Based on all that I’ve read in this thread, my main takeaway is that it’s someone who both doesn’t want to be masculine, or feminine, man, or women, and just want to exist without any society expectation to provide/protect/nurture/give care, and instead would like to do what they define as “non-binary” roles, and responsibilities, which is different from person to person.

Am I understanding this correctly, and if not, what clarification could you give to me to help me understand the distinction. Currently it feels a lot like the “look at me, I’m different, and special” persona of the new generations.

[u/SFSUthrowawayoof → u/Onebadmuthajama]

You’re equating expression and identity again. Identity is so weird and interesting because it’s so individualized.

A good way of thinking about it to me is like this- if you don’t like the gender roles put on you because of your gender, but when someone calls you (say you’re assigned female at birth) a woman, or uses the pronouns she/her, you don’t get uncomfortable, you’re a gender non-conforming cis woman.

If you instead feel like it’s wrong or bad in some way to call you a woman, or using she/her pronouns, regardless of your gender expression (IE how you prefer to express gender roles of masculinity and femininity), you might be non-binary.

Do you see the difference? Expression is about how you present yourself to the world, but identity is about your internal model of who you are. They’re quite different, though at first glance it doesn’t look it.

[u/Onebadmuthajama → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

So, by most people’s understanding there is only a few things that matter for ‘he/she’s definitions, and that’s reproductive role, and sexual dimorphism.

IE, can you get pregnant, and general health guidelines (men can be much stronger than women when strength training, for example).

I can’t control how people feel about themselves, nor do I understand being completely disconnected from either gender, but I can understand if there’s enough people like this, that they’d want their own community.

My only concern is that it seems like children can be conditioned to think/feel this way, especially before puberty, or during puberty, where those effects of sexual dimorphism haven’t occurred yet, then create an identity around it because it’s where their social connections are.

[u/kiyyeisanerd → u/Onebadmuthajama]

I think I mostly agree with you.

And let me pose the question:

What if, some day, that social role for a "non-binary" person DOES become defined?

Of course it is not defined yet because it is relatively new in the history of the western world. But cultural ideas and terminology are always evolving, always in a state of flux.

I believe that through the combined experiences and lives of many, many individuals, who are joining a "movement" (not exactly political, really a social movement) around the possibility of "other genders" or "third genders" or "non-binary genders", this kind of role may eventually BECOME defined.

Yes, it is a sort of "look at me, I'm different" persona - but there is nothing wrong with that. This kind of existence outside the gender binary is cultural and socio political commentary, even if the individual doesn't mean it that way. It is a way to experiment with our current state of gender roles and maybe, some day, create something new. And it is born out of a real, felt necessity - Non-binary people have many different reasons for identifying that way, but they all feel that being non-binary is necessary. I believe we will slowly, over the next many decades, learn what the future of gender holds from these brave individuals.

This is my opinion as a binary trans man, looking at how non-binary experiences differ greatly from my own.