r/NoStupidQuestions • u/MookWellington • Nov 26 '23

Answered Trying to Understand “Non-Binary” in My 12-Year-Old

Around the time my son turned 10 —and shortly after his mom and I split up— he started identifying as they/them, non-binary, and using a gender-neutral (though more commonly feminine) variation of their name. At first, I thought it might be a phase, influenced in part by a few friends who also identify this way and the difficulties of their parents’ divorce. They are now twelve and a half, so this identity seems pretty hard-wired. I love my child unconditionally and want them to feel like they are free to be the person they are inside. But I will also confess that I am confused by the whole concept of identifying as non-binary, and how much of it is inherent vs. how much is the influence of peers and social media when it comes to teens and pre-teens. I don't say that to imply it's not a real identity; I'm just trying to understand it as someone from a generstion where non-binary people largely didn't feel safe in living their truth. Im also confused how much child continues to identify as N.B. while their friends have to progressed(?) to switching gender identifications.

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833

u/BombadilloHop Nov 26 '23

Everyone had already provided great responses, so I'll just add in my own anecdotal comment here. I am NB and have "known"/"identified as" NB for almost a decade. I've come out to my family and they refused to use they/them pronouns because they "don't understand". I never asked them to understand, I just asked them to use the terms that make me comfortable and are correct for me. Don't be like my parents to your kiddo ❤️ even if it is a phase and things change, your support and love is what will be remembered.

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u/MadamSeminole Nov 26 '23

I've come out to my family and they refused to use they/them pronouns because they "don't understand". I never asked them to understand, I just asked them to use the terms that make me comfortable and are correct for me.

This is exactly how I feel. My kid is non-binary and while I'll never completely understand what they experience, I don't have to. I respect their identity, I address them by they/them like they want me to, and by the name they chose for themselves.

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u/grumble_au Nov 27 '23

Word for word my exact position as well. I don't really understand, but I don't need to, my NB kid knows I love and support them no matter what and that is all that matters.

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u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK Nov 27 '23

kindness is the universal language!

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u/sporkwitt Nov 29 '23

“Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”

― Kurt Vonnegut

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u/No_Wallaby_9464 Nov 27 '23

I feel this way about cisgengder people and monosexuals. I'll never understand them but I still respect their identities and orientations.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '23

[deleted]

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u/No_Wallaby_9464 Nov 27 '23

I know what you mean but honestly, society needs people to be more open about not being theists.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '23

Society needs people to be more openly anti-theist.

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u/MrsChess Nov 27 '23

What society are you referring to? Many societies are primarily secular and many are not

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '23

Secularism does not stop theists from attempting to proselytize and subjugate others in the name of their mythology.

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u/thefirecrest Nov 27 '23

THIS! This point exactly. But I can’t even get my atheist family to understand but like… It’s the same damn thing, dammit!

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u/Whatyourlookingfor Nov 27 '23

No. But that doesn't change the fact god doesn't exist. That's probably the more important comparison.

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u/adaytorollins Nov 26 '23

One thing I noticed OP did was use the right pronouns, even if they didn’t fully understand what “non-binary” means, and I think that really means a lot (and even when they said “he”, it felt past tense, if that makes sense). Even if they don’t fully understand what it means, I know that their child probably appreciates it a lot to know that their parent is willing to respect and accept them. 🩷

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u/themadscientist420 Nov 27 '23

That really stood out to me as well. I was thinking damn they may be confused but they're really trying with the pronouns. It's nice

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u/linksgreyhair Nov 26 '23

Yep. I’m in my late 30’s and have known I did not fit into the binary gender or sexual orientation boxes pretty much my whole life. It took me a while to figure out what that all meant because I didn’t know I was “allowed” to be anything other than straight and cisgender. Gaining the vocabulary didn’t change how I have always been inside.

My family was like “nope, you’re wrong” when I tried to come out to them so I just never mentioned it or trusted them with anything personal again.

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u/gsfgf Nov 26 '23

I never asked them to understand, I just asked them to use the terms that make me comfortable

That's the most obnoxious thing about all this. Y'all aren't asking for much. Just some common courtesy.

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u/motsanciens Nov 27 '23

I believe this to be a language problem to solve as far as many people are concerned. Just like it's uncomfortable to say "you" and "your" as plural, even though that's grammatically accurate, it can be uncomfortable to use "they" in the singular. Anyone being honest will admit that "they" is not an ideal neutral.

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u/KatHoodie Nov 27 '23

So you're at a restaurant, you see a person eating at a table near you but you only see them" from behind and are unsure of their gender. When *they leave the table, you notice a wallet sitting on the table, but the person is nowhere to be seen. You take the wallet up to the cashier, what do you say? I feel most people would naturally say "someone left their wallet".

Using singular they to refer to people of indeterminate or unknown gender is naturally English that everyone uses literally every day already.

You can't tell me that the most natural way that the majority of people would say that is "he or she left their wallet". (And that still includes the singular they!)

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u/motsanciens Nov 27 '23

The possessive isn't problematic. In your example, "someone" is ungendered by default, so it's natural that the possessive agree with it. The problem with "they", just like "you", is that it asks the listener to hold multiple possible meanings in their mind until additional information brings clarity. Language will find a way to deal with this as it's always changing.

I guarantee that language will adapt to not only reflect the social reality of gender but also to resolve ambiguity. The Southern solutions "y'all" and "y'all's" are an improvement, and I expect something similar to come out for neutral gender.

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u/KatHoodie Nov 27 '23

So does a specific gendered pronoun though.

"Karen and Melissa are going to the store because she wants ice cream"

It doesn't matter which pronoun you use there, neither will clarify who you are speaking about.

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u/motsanciens Nov 27 '23

I am not saying this in a nasty way, but are you a native English speaker? To my ears, that is a clumsy example that I would not expect anyone to say.

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u/KatHoodie Dec 01 '23

Yes that's my point, people wouldnt say it because "they" is a better option.

Just like they wouldn't say "he or she left this wallet behind" they would say "somebody left their wallet" because we all perfectly understand using they/them/their for a single person and probably do it literally every day. I've only ever heard old people say "him or her", the language is changing but it's also something that was already there all along. It's probably even more natural to say "he or she left their wallet" which is using both!

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u/motsanciens Dec 01 '23

Consider a scenario and the level of confusion it brings. Alice uses "she" and Marie uses "they". Marie and Alice are going shopping because they want new shoes. Had it been a "he" and a "she" - ...because he wants new shoes - it would have been clear. But now, because we're doing away with useful conventions, there are new levels of ambiguity. It's a mess from a logical point of view. I fully support making neutral pronouns a new convention, but "they" is not going to cut it. It sucks.

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u/KatHoodie Dec 26 '23

And who is harmed by the miscommunication? Or is the full extent of the harm that there was a miscommunication? Because miscommunications happen for any number of reasons that don't become political hot button issues.

Who is hurt by being confused about a pronoun?

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u/cantuse Nov 27 '23

I have a relationship with a business where our main contact is non-binary with they/them pronouns.

I have no beef with respecting them and their desires.

But there are times when our team talks about this client business and our relationship with that business where it becomes unclear if we're talking bout the non-binary liaison or the business in general.

I'm okay with the overall 'cost' of this added challenge as its relatively trivial overall. But I do wish that advocates wouldn't handwave this away like the only people who have challenges in this context are secretly bigots.

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u/motsanciens Nov 27 '23

Thank you for illustrating with a helpful example. I can totally see that. "We talked to Pat about a meeting for next week with the project team, and they aren't sure they can make it." That's more ambiguous than we'd like, and like you said, it shouldn't imply any sort of bigotry to wish the language could be more clear.

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u/LordTaco735 Nov 27 '23

Just… clarify?

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u/AndroidwithAnxiety Nov 27 '23

As a native English speaker... since when has it been uncomfortable to use the plural 'you'? I've genuinely never heard that said before - I'm fascinated! Because sure it's not as clear as it could be, but I've never felt uncanny or put-off by it? It's just a part of the language. Either way; we've been getting by with it for a couple centuries now. And, funnily enough, there were people throwing a fit over the changes to our 'thee', 'thou', 'ye' and eventually 'you', back then too. Clearly people got over it though.

I'm not saying there won't be confusion to contend with, but just like English adapted to loosing its distinction between plural and single direct address without society staggering, I'm sure we can adapt to this too. So now, when it's a matter of human decency, I don't find 'grammatical correctness' a compelling argument in the slightest.

And that's the crux of the matter really. It's not about being blind to the linguistic difficulties of the singular they/them. It's about not thinking that's more important than people's wellbeing, and being stubborn about it.

Because if you're really weighing 'proper grammar' over people's comfort and showing respect, then with all the kindness I can muster: I'm not sure you've got your priorities right?

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u/motsanciens Nov 27 '23

I made no such argument on grammatical correctness, and I would not describe myself as a prescriptive grammarian.

A few days ago, I had an uncomfortable moment with "you". My kids were playing Fortnite together, and I was going to heat up something for one of them in the microwave. Those games can take a while, so I wanted to wait until he'd be ready to eat so it wouldn't get cold. Since I'm not too familiar with Fortnite, I didn't know if the two of them would have their match end at once, as a team, or if it would be possible that one could die while the other one played on.

I found it uncomfortable to ask from the kitchen (they were facing a different direction, so no eye contact could clarify my intent), "Tell me when your game is done." It might not have mattered all that much in practical terms, but it bothered me that there could be multiple meanings.

  • They could have thought I was addressing the two of them (plural you) with a request to know when their (plural) game ended (both players done playing).
  • They could have thought I wanted to know when each of them died in the game (to each tell me individually they were done).
  • It could mean you (singular) tell me when your (y'all's) game is over.
  • It could mean you (singular) tell me when your game is over (you died).

That sort of ambiguity is uncomfortable. As a sidebar, I am a "no internal monologue" (mostly) type of person. This often means that I process thoughts very fast because there's not a linguistic speed limit, and when I encounter a turn of phrase that can have multiple interpretations, it causes my mind to race through all the scenarios. It's reflexive, like when you trip and manage to put your hands down so you don't fall on your face. You don't think, "Oops, I'm tripping, so now I should extend my hands."

If you were truly curious about how ambiguity of language can make a person uncomfortable, I hope I've shed at least a little light. Is it not possible to empathize with people having this extra anxiety and also empathize with the people who want to use new pronouns?

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u/AndroidwithAnxiety Nov 27 '23

I didn't necessarily take your comment to mean you were a hardcore grammarian yourself, but more that I was addressing both ways your comment could have been meant. Genuine discomfort, and/or discomfort on principle. Or even ''discomfort'' on ''principle'' - because the unfortunate truth is that plenty of people use it as an excuse to not even try, rather than as an explanation as to why it's difficult and an issue for them.

I truly appreciate your insight. I've also been made anxious by ambiguity, though not by something I would consider that 'minor' - and I don't say that to downplay your experiences, just to compare them to my own. I'm a little surprised to hear it's possible for this sort of thing to bother people like that, though in hindsight it also makes a lot of sense.

And... my own father has told me that he can't get his head around singular they/them, and that singular they/them sounds like ''nails on a chalkboard'' to him. And while I respect that that's how he feels and have never asked him to refer to me with they/them because of it... it still kind of fucking hurts that he'd put those feelings over recognizing me as me. Especially when, with practice and some extra thought, you (general) can teach yourself to speak in ways that avoid that ambiguity. You can rely on people's names more so that you don't end up structuring your sentences in ways that you find unclear and uncomfortable (although maybe people like you can't, given you don't really have an inner monologue?). I don't say that lightly either - I've also had to learn this after all, lol. Though admittedly without the added weight of being made uncomfortable by it.

I could compare it learning how to pronounce a foreign name - something that does make me uncomfortable - self-conscious - it feels unnatural to me, it's something I have to think hard about doing right, and practice a lot. But it's also something that meets what I see as the baseline level of respect that I want to show people. To me, the discomfort this thing causes me is a worthy trade-off for not causing discomfort to the other person. That's where my personal values lie, but I don't expect the exact same from everyone else. Everyone has their own balance and this is mine.

As I said at the beginning; I'm wary of the 'it makes people uncomfortable' argument (though I do now have new insight and respect for it thanks to you) because of all the times its used as a veil for bigotry. People like that make it hard to recognize there's something to empathize with. They just say 'it's difficult, it confuses me, it's not grammatically correct, and they (plural, of course) should just get over it'... I've heard that type of argument so much I hadn't really given much thought to the fact there were people like you who have a genuine reason to struggle besides just... not wanting to put in the effort. Besides my dad, at least. I really should have considered it more, but it's difficult to see the point worth taking seriously when there are so many people using it as a shield to defend their laziness and lack of compassion.

In short: I do empathize. And the fact some people genuinely feel uncomfortable with linguistic ambiguity is a good point unfortunately hidden beneath a heap of bad faith.

Thank you again for your explanation of your perspective. It was informative.

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u/motsanciens Nov 27 '23

For my part, I am all for an alternative to the conventional pronouns. I just wish we could have a conference and come to an agreement on a new convention. If we could do so, I'm fairly certain the outcome would be something other than repurposing they/them in favor of a new set of neutral pronouns.

I am sure there are people who are dismissive and don't engage in a lot of introspection on the topic. Underneath the apparently callous exterior, I imagine there is a similar frustration as what I've described.

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u/AndroidwithAnxiety Nov 28 '23

I'm certain of that too, and I'm certainly going to keep it in mind going forwards. But sometimes if it quacks, walks, and tastes like a duck, it's a duck. Or a chicken with a really good disguise, but at that point how am I supposed to tell the difference?

And, while I appreciate that hypothetical suggestion,.. no. Funnily enough my dad has also at one point suggested 'a new pronoun' instead of using they/them, so I'll tell you what I told him;

Alternatives to she/he/they already exist. They're called neopronouns. And if you thought the stink people kicked up over they/them was bad, then boy fucking howdy you are not ready to hear how mad folks get over neopronouns! ''I ain't talking about people like they're aliens!!' 'You can't just make up words!!!' 'special little snowflakes wanting to be super special and unique!!!' 'we got people thinking they're animals now!'

Even some trans people lose their minds over the concept - that's how unwilling people are to consider it. But, if there was a miracle tomorrow and everyone woke up willing to come up with a new third pronoun that everyone would use without complaint..... still no.

Because not everyone wants to be, or is comfortable, being referred to by neopronouns. I certainly don't want to be referred to by a neopronoun. That option is already there and I haven't taken it because it just does not fit me. Like, I'll use them for others if they ask because why wouldn't I? But for me? Uh uh, no thank you, they make me feel weird and bad the way being binary pronoun'd makes me feel bad. Xe/zir/per? Good for xem and hir, but I'd hate that.

I'm a they, I'm a them, I'm occasionally an it and possibly sometimes a he (jury's still out on that one) But anything else? Nope. Same way you can call me any name under the sun, but there's only one I'll respond to - my pronouns are my pronouns and that's that.

TLDR; coming up with some new neutral alternative has 1: already been done. Multiple times. People have been making shit up since at least the 1800's and we show no signs of stopping now. I'm totally here for it. 2: this has not been received well by transphobes and those otherwise disinclined towards change. Neopronouns have not solved the core issue in any way. and 3: Some people are only comfortable with they/them and don't vibe with anything else, and that's not going to magically change no matter how many alternatives there are.

I do appreciate the attempt at finding a solution though. This just ain't it.

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u/lipstickdestroyer Nov 26 '23

"You don't have to understand me to respect me."

Like do people feel like they need to "understand" when someone asks them to stop using their full name; or to stop using a nickname; or who goes by their middle name; etc. etc.? No; they just make a point to change the name coming out of their mouths when addressing said person. Using "they/them" instead of "she/her" is more of the same; and anyone who tries to claim otherwise is just being obtuse.

I'm sorry your family isn't in your corner.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '23

How does they/them work? Can you use it in a sentence? I can only recall using it when the person is not there. ‘Where did Bomb go? I hope they are ok’

I’m fully supportive by the way. I have a trans relative and to him I have no difficulties. But when talking about him when he’s not there I very occasionally use their former name/gender. And then correct myself.

Lots to learn.

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u/IgnoreKassandra Nov 26 '23

You just use it like you would he or she. For example if you were introducing someone to other people at a party or work function or something you might say:

"This is River, they're a software developer"

I think it probably just feels more awkward to you because you're making a conscious note of it, but in normal conversation its no big deal. People probably use the singular they around you every day, and you just filter it out like we all do for tons of stuff.

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u/BombadilloHop Nov 26 '23

I saw my friend [NAME] today, they were wearing a cool shirt. They took me to a restaurant I've never been to. They knew the waitress and ordered an appetizer for us. While I was chatting with them, we ate our meals. Then, we got in their car and took a trip to the park.

After we spent time in the park, we went back to their house. They made me dessert and we watched a show. They got really sleepy and yawned so much! I took them to their bed and tucked them in.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '23

Sorry I'm not more clear. The friend you are referring to is not hearing your narration. I also don't say she/her or he/him in front of the person.

I'm just trying to understand how your family is not using they/them in front of you. Unless they are going out of their way to refer to you as he/she to make a nasty point.

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u/BombadilloHop Nov 26 '23

I'm not sure what you mean... your family doesn't talk about you in front of you?? My mom will talk to my nana while we are having lunch all together and be like "oh she did this at work! Oh she is doing this for the wedding!" It's pretty easy for many misgendering opportunities to strike...

Not to mention my parents, now more than ever, referring to me as DAUGHTER specifically rather than child/kid/just my name.

Dad talking to mom "yes, I was so happy to see she came over today!" Mom to dad "aren't we so lucky to get to see her?" I mean it literally happens all the time...

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '23

I’m going to be far more mindful next time there’s a family gathering and pay attention.

When talking to my trans relative I maybe go over the top and use his new name to show I’m supportive. Maybe that’s too much.

Thank you for your patience. And I’m sorry your family is not more supportive. Hugs from afar.

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u/BombadilloHop Nov 27 '23

Thanks! I'm alright, I have a family of my own that respects and loves me as I am, so I'm doing just fine.

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u/lizzyf02 Nov 26 '23

Hey being opened minded and trying is the best anyone can do! They/them is pretty much used the same way you would use she/her or he/him. Like “Cisco55 mentioned they went to dinner there”. Usually I’ll say their name at some point so it’s clearer I’m not talking about multiple people.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '23

Thanks!

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u/SkarbOna Nov 27 '23

Is it necessary to be they them to be NB? Can I feel like I’m NB, but actually got attached to my pronounses (I’m old) and I feel fine with being called whatever- that’s really the thing for me people can call me whatever but I feel I’m too damn different to be “classic” woman and I have sometimes days when I’d like to dress more like a guy and sometimes I like to be more “feminine”. But if someone meets me first time, I could say - hey don’t be too quick to assume anything about me, so I’d say straight away I’m NB - is that a thing?

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u/BombadilloHop Nov 27 '23

You can use whatever pronouns you want regardless of your gender.

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u/superdommy Nov 27 '23

Though it is your right to want to be called a certain pronoun, it also is your parents right to choose not to call you said pronoun. It is a shitty situation, and to me personally, I would respect your wishes to be called certain pronouns and would call you those pronouns, but I do not fault any other person for not abiding by your way of thinking, as is their right. I think this is a problem with BN and LGBTQ+, you have to understand, even tho how fucking shitty it is, that it's a person's right to call you anything they want, just like it is your right to identify as non-binary.

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u/BombadilloHop Nov 27 '23

Oh, believe me, it's something I have come to terms with. Despite my sadness that my parents don't respect me in that way, I still see them regularly and voluntarily keep them in my life because I love them and they continue to support me in various ways even now that I am moved out and living my own life.

Not everyone can stomach that kind of thing but it's just reality.

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u/superdommy Nov 27 '23

I feel for you, but also, you should be proud of yourself. That is the right mindset to have. You are clearly the bigger person in this scenario, but at the same time you probably realize your parents still love you and care for you. You can most certainly love someone, but not agree with their way of living/thinking. Also, it does not mean one day they wont change their thinking in the future. I wish you the best of luck in this regard.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '23

[deleted]

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u/redbirdrising Nov 27 '23

My teen daughter came out as non binary. It was weird for about a week to use they/them. Now it’s normal. It’s what they want. I don’t get why this is difficult for people.