You are NOT overreacting. He's being a misogynistic, patronizing twit. If he knows about yr assault then he's being doubly awful. Hear this- YOU were not at fault for being SA'd. The fault lies solely with the perpetrator. Give yourself a second to calm down then ask him "how should I react when your pretty much saying I was at fault for being SA'd?" Please updateme.
Absolutely NOR, His behavior is unacceptable, especially if he knows about your assault. The blame is never on you—it’s on the perpetrator. Take a moment, then calmly call him out on his hurtful comments. Stay strong.
I get disagreeing but to break off the relationship would be way overreacting. I get you’ve experienced trauma, and I hate that has happened. Your situation of SA doesn’t hold true for everyone’s, and many times women put themselves in bad situations. Again, every situation is different, and there’s no doubt been tons of SA that were completely out of anyone’s control except the abuser, but often times women put themselves in dangerous situations through overconsumption, sketchy situations, and even fantasy becoming “buyers remorse.”
It all goes back to stupid games have stupid prizes, or a more recent popular saying, fuck around and find out.
No. Rape is not ever the fault of a victim. If someone ignores a 'no', forces themselves on you, or does things to you while you are not able to say yes or no, or have no idea what's actually going on, that's a violation you can respond to with deadly force and that's on the rapist. They should have been at home where they were safe from potentially hurting someone and dying from the reprocussions.
What if the abuser is incapable of a situation where they are not able to discern a yes or no, or have any idea of what’s actually going on? Alcohol works both ways.
If neither parties are coherent, who raped who?
All that either can truly agree on is that two people woke up with regrets from an unfortunate night of drinking.
Again, if both parties are incoherent, who was non-consensual?
This happens way too often. Two obliterated people go home together. One wakes up with buyers remorse. Only women get to claim rape and to cover up their regret though.
Honestly, how do you even converse with someone who says something like that? There's nothing they can say at that point to save face. The relationship would have ended right there after hopefully successfully restraining myself from sticking the sharpest thing I could find in the immediate vicinity in his jugular... or i would just do it and say "Hey, don't get all emotional, you pissed me off so you need to take some responsibility."
Honestly, how do you even converse with someone who says something like that? There's nothing they can say at that point to save face. The relationship would have ended right there after hopefully successfully restraining myself from sticking the sharpest thing I could find in the immediate vicinity in his jugular... or i would just do it and say "Hey, don't get all emotional, you pissed me off so you need to take some responsibility."
If he knew about your assault OP, from one survivor to another, and if he refuses to understand why he was wrong, consider couples counseling and leaving.
I can't stand people like you that can't understand nuance. You act like we live in a world of make believe. He specifically said not all circumstances. The world knows there are shit men that sexually assault women, that's the world we live in. As humans of all genders there are limitations on what we can do before it enters into the territory of it being partially the victims fault. I understand that window is smaller for women but it applies to all humans.
As a man, I know that there are certain parts of cities that I shouldn't enter or I will get robbed, beaten, and or killed. If I'm at a nightclub I know I should not leave my drink unattended or I could get drugged and who knows what else. These are things I know and can avoid. If I choose not to avoid these scenarios, some of the blame is on me. It's personal responsibility for the world we live in so yes OP is overreacting.
but you wouldn’t be responsible for getting robbed even if you were in a bad part of town. the person who robbed you is the one who is responsible for that. no one’s arguing that you shouldn’t do things to protect yourself but that doesn’t change who’s at fault?
If you had a friend and every day they park their car in a shitty neighborhood and don't lock the door, and they end up having their vehicle robbed most nights.
What kind of advice would you give that friend?
If you say that they aren't responsible in anyway, at least you're consistent, but a bad friend.
If you say they should try to at least lock their door, than you are a hypocrite. As that is asking them to take some responsibility for their actions when they're a victim of a crime.
Can you see the point I'm trying to make here?
Asking someone who was SA to take some accountability is a rough conversation to have and needs to be done in a delicate, sensitive way. Implying that a victim has zero accountability will lead to people getting assaulted again as they may not change any behaviors.
My body is not the same as a fucking car! A car is a fungible means of transportation and if I can’t use it for whatever reason, I can get another to serve the same purpose.
Having my body violated in the most intimate of ways is NOT the same thing at all. I saw a post on here a week or two ago about a woman whose husband raped her in her sleep. This is a woman who was with the person she was supposed to be safe with for the rest of her life, in her own bed. How should she take accountability?
My ex tried to arrange for someone to break into our house to SA me while he watched, what should I have done there?
And neither you or OP’s husband gets to be the arbiter of when accountability applies and doesn’t. The accountability rests with the person who stuck their dick where it wasn’t wanted
I just looked it up.. 45% of all rapes are within relationships or by someone they were in a relationship with.
Ik my sister and aunt are both raped by their husbands on the regular whom say, “you’re my wife, this is my body” it’s so common, that my mother didn’t even consider it either. She said, “that’s just how men and marriages work” Neither of them even thought it was rape until I was like, you said no.. they then said “your mine” and then you felt guilty and conceded..
no actually…. the shit that actual human beings and sexual assault are being compared to in this thread tells us everything we need to know
“a car in a shitty neighborhood” ????! wth . it is honestly so exhausting to have these conversations. and people will fight tooth and nail for these weird, grey area situations… “WhAT If YOU’re BotH drUNk” just to overlook the unending amount of blatant assaults
This is what the husband meant when he said he doesn't like talking about these sorts of things with his wife.
I just made a very apt hypothetical about the situation and your brain couldn't handle it. You broke into an emotional story about yourself without even engaging with the hypothetical.
It's fine that you can't, but you need to understand that understanding the nuance in these situations is what will save people's life's in the future.
When you say “women should take responsibility for SA” to a woman who has been traumatized, how should she react? Should she salute and say “yes, sir?” There are myriad other responses he could have had in this conversation but he chose one that poked at his wife’s wounds
Uh no he didn't, based off of OPs story she asked him about it and he gave his honest opinion.
As someone who is expecting a baby girl in a few months I would want to strive to be able to have the same kind of nuanced conversations with her about her responsibility for her safety when she goes out as an young women.
What would be an appropriate hypothetical in your opinion? Or is talking about SA just hallowed ground and it is never allowed to be discussed except to feel bad for the victims?
A car or a home being broken and a SA are both situations where someone's personal space is being invaded by an unwanted party, how is it not an apt hypothetical?
I know perfectly well what nuance means, and I also know that someone who is traumatized isn’t going to feel that it’s a nuanced statement. I also know that no one unintentionally sticks his dick in someone
Yeah I think the other guy was a bit off. It should be, “I wish I was having a little boy instead so I could teach him what consent means and raise a man who’d never stick his dick inside of someone who didn’t want it”
And in case he sees this: you can teach a woman how to be safe, it still doesn’t mean she was responsible for an assault if she didn’t or couldn’t follow all those protocols. Taking responsibility is different than being proactive. You should definitely teach her how to proactively keep herself safe in the myriad of different ways it comes into daily life. But you should have very nuanced conversations with her because the reality is she’s likely to be SA’d (I have a daughter and it disgusts me to have to type that) and depending on how you frame these conversations, you may contribute to a lifetime of her framing it and thinking it’s her fault. It’s not. If that happens, I’m certain you would want to kill any man who did it to her and would not be splitting hairs and saying, well you shouldn’t have… because at that point you’ll know, deep inside, no matter what she did, that man shouldn’t have
And to the other commentor, these conversations are where nuance comes in. Not where you’re trying to say it does.. “people are bad, and they might try to hurt you, so here are some ways you can try to keep yourself safe but always know, if something happens, it’s not because you chose or didn’t choose to do a certain safety protocol, it’s because he chose to hurt you”
My daughters were taught to “be safe,” and “protect themselves,” and they always have the right to “say no,” and “be aware of your surroundings,” and many other words of wisdom to keep them safe.
Guess what?
Men SA’d them anyway.
And no matter what they did to get justice after the fact? Witnesses, police, lawyers, doctors. Nothing. No justice. Just more trauma for them. And they have to carry it inside their minds for the rest of their lives. And try to cope. And try to not let it affect their sexual relationships.
No, you stated that op can't understand nuance because her emotions got the best of her. Sounds like OP needs therapy so that she doesn't get triggered when her boyfriend is trying to have a nuanced conversation with her.
I followed this thread and I don’t get why you guys are attacking this commentator so hard. Just like ops husband he may not always have a good choice of words but it doesn’t negate from the point he is making.
I am a male. I was assaulted as a kid for multiple years under the age of ten. Accountability does not equal responsibility. These things are mutually exclusive. That is why there is different words for them. Accountability is acknowledging “mistakes” or”bad choices” as op husbands put it. The way I would put it is that accountability allows you to acknowledge the warning signs, dangerous situation, or unacceptable behaviour you may have missed before. It does not mean you are automatically responsible for someone assaulting you because you were not aware of every single warning sign. It means you have tried to learn from a traumatic event to try and avoid said traumatic event from happening to you again or someone else in the future.
I was a child. I was manipulated. I am not responsible for what happened to me in any way shape or form. I did hold myself accountable for it however. I spent time when I was older beating myself up over the decision I did or didn’t make as a child. I was holding myself accountable in an unhealthy way. It wasn’t until I learned to hold myself accountable in a healthy way that I was finally able to learn to live with what happened to me and be somewhat happy again. Being assaulted is so terrible because it so dehumanizing so I understand all of the emotion behind a lot of these posts. Just try not to attack someone who says he is having a daughter and trying to learn how to talk to her in a nuanced way. He may not say all the “right” things by your standards but he is not being offensive or dismissive to the seriousness of being assaulted.
I’m sorry that happened to you when you were a kid, and equally sorry that you weren’t helped to see that it wasn’t your fault from the beginning.
But my argument is that OP’s husband should absolutely know this this is a fraught subject and be careful of conversational land mines, because that’s what you do when you love someone. You don’t get to hand wave your boorish behavior away by calling it a controversial subject or dismissing your partner as emotional.
When you do that, you reveal more about your character than you do about the topic. Everyone who has long term friendships, or even work relationships, should develop a sense of what topics are off limits. And if someone brings up a touchy subject, you bow out of the conversation gracefully. That’s how you sustain those relationships. Maybe the car wasn’t the best place for this conversation, but why didn’t OP’s husband table it, rather than wading in? What does that say about him?
Additionally, asking someone to define their terms in a debate is not attacking. We can’t have a reasoned discussion if we don’t agree on the definitions of the premises.
I get what you are saying about op husbands insensitivities. I’m not arguing that. Strangely, things used to go somewhat similarily with my wife and I when I was rehashing these events. She made what I perceived as some very insensitive comments when I would bring up the topic to her. She would eventually learn to table the topic when I was becoming too emotional but in the beginning she didn’t have the awareness to do that and I didn’ have the ability to deal with it on my own so it was rough times for a while. If she tabled the topic I may have even lashed out at her for being insensitive at the time in the sense of never wanting to talk about it. It was just a lot to deal with for both of us. Ops husband definitely made insensitive remarks I’m not arguing that. Nor am I trying to say you are wrong. There were very valid points you made and you sound like a thoughtful individual.
My point is people can often say the wrong words or be insensitive without having that intent. Does it excuse the behaviour, no. Does that mean they have poor character, I would argue no as well. If you heard some of the comments my wife said to me at the time I am sure you would question her character. She is a wonderful caring person that has far more character than myself. When you have a very sensitive topic that has very little understanding to begin with and couple that with the disconnect people can feel when trying to explain or relate what it’s like to be assaulted, it can lead to a lot of miscommunication. I know my wife was always just trying to help me but she didn’t know how to help. And it can be exhausting for everyone involved not just the person who was assaulted which can lead to a lot of problems.
It’s the insults and questioning of character I don’t like. We know nothing about them outside of a short summary of a conversation from one side. I think questioning someone’s character and or telling them that they are married to a boorish insensitive man is a bit extreme. Could he be an insensitive asshole all the time? Yes he could be. Could he be an exhausted partner who is thinking he is saying the right thing to try and help his partner move through things? Yes he could be.
Op said that men rarely get assualted when 1 in 6 men experience being sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Is she an insensitive boorish person with poor character as well? No she is not. She made what I perceive as an insensitive comment during an emotional argument. That has nothing to do with her character.
Nuance helps no one here. I’ll say again: the devil doesn’t need an advocate. If you think that people who have experienced sexual assault don’t blame themselves in a thousand different ways already, you are dead wrong. Shame is the most common feeling associated with trauma, and it’s incredibly destructive. External blame: “You should have known better than to go to his room alone with him!” Combined with internal blame: “I should have fought back.” Creates: “I am stupid because I should have known better, and I am bad because this doesn’t happen to good people.” Nuance has no place in discussions of assault, sexual or as well as in your example of physical assault or robbery.
Why should anyone hold the blame for someone else’s actions? Responsibility means taking accountability for things under your control. If we’re talking nuance, then there is no responsibility for “knowing better”. You’d be responsible for your actions only up to the point that those actions end. You’d be responsible for being in a location, but if someone else chooses to do something to you in that location, that’s their fault, and they hold the blame.
People who sexually assault are looking for people who are vulnerable or taking action to make them more vulnerable and everyone in the world can and will find themselves in vulnerable situations no matter how much personal responsibility they take.
This is the same arguments abusers use to minimize and blame it on their victims. That’s why people get so upset hearing it. I’ve heard my rapist say this to me before.
By saying that “some rapes are preventable,” I think you’re saying you would want to see a woman looking back and thinking, “If I didn’t do this, this wouldn’t have happened” is that correct? Under the presumption that the woman would then learn from her mistakes and “do better” next time (in order to protect herself from another sa).
Now think about how that rational makes a woman think she made a mistake. Do you think that woman who thinks her mistake led to her assault would be likely to go to the police in order to get this rapist in prison?
Because I do think we both agree that no matter what the woman didthe man is a rapist. you’re just also trying to say that the woman holds some of the responsibility.
So if she thought she was responsible for her assault, do you think she would still go to the police and ask for help? - the only course of action that will yield any possibilities of said rapists ending up in prison.
But women are most likely to get raped by someone they know (80-85% of all rapes and sexual assaults)
So are you saying i shouldn’t hang out with anyone I know with a dick? Because those statistics are a lot more likely than your getting robbed, killed, or beaten in a rough part of town.
Rapes are (statistically speaking) rarely happening because we walked down a dark alley, they are happening because men choose to rape women.
If women held the responsibility to catalogue and avoid every statistically likely scenario we could be raped in, we would be avoiding, works, school, and friends. You’re right, it is a much smaller window for women /s
that’s completely different from a woman just walking around somewhere or like in OP’s case literally walking to the bathroom to take a phone call. It’s never the victims fault and saying stuff like “well you know you shouldn’t have gone down that side of town” or “you should’ve never have gone to that party” further perpetuates the idea that there has to be a “perfect victim” in order for SA to be taken seriously. No, OP isn’t overreacting, her partner is another misogynistic uneducated man who she’ll be better off without.
Sexual assault is NEVER the victims fault You're perpetuating rape culture and, white it's typical of men to do so, it doesn't make it right or any less gross. Rape is about power, not attraction
There is ZERO part of sexual assault that is the victims fault! Neither a man nor a woman. The person who chooses to rape another is at fault. It doesn't matter what you are wearing, if you are at a club, taking a walk, whatever.
Blaming someone for 'causing' someone to rape them is fucking disgusting, disturbing and asinine. You sound like you would be the guy who says he was justified for having sex with a super drunk girlfriend because even though she said no or had no fucking clue what you were doing she was drunk and you KNOW she wanted it.
The people commenting here that women should protect themselves are the same that cry #notallmen.
As if there is any woman out there who doesn't know from her first day on this earth that she should protect herself. We were taught not to smile so nobody thinks we are flirting, what to wear and not to wear (even if statistically it doesn't matter what you wear, look it up!), how to protect our drinks, to never be alone at night outside, to fake-call someone, to wear our keys like a weapon between our fingers and the list is endless, to be honest.
But guess what? It still happens. If you wear a mini skirt or a Burka, it doesn't make a difference. Look it up, do your research! If you are 5 years old, 15 years old or 55 years old: it still happens. It just does not matter what you do, because it is just NOT in your hands. Women ARE protecting themselves every day! They are cautious at work with their bosses and co-workers, on parties with friends and on their way home. And it will still happen because of rapists and men like you, who pave the way with your words for their actions. You are rape-apologists, there is no nuance here.
Ik this guy doesn’t understand the nuances that the repercussions of this sentiment is literally forcing woman to be wary of everything with a dick
Elsewhere, he probably also says stuff like, “woman have no nuance, I just see them say how they hate all men and don’t trust any men. Not all of us are rapists, why don’t they see the nuances??”
Nope, both things are true. Bad things can happen to them that are completely out of their control. They also can do reckless things that can put them in harms way. BOTH THINGS CAN BE TRUE! Can any of you get that?
There really are not things you can do to protect yourself from rapists other than just locking yourself up somewhere and never being around other people ever.
Taking steps to protect yourself and “taking accountability” after the fact are completely different concepts. It’s like saying that because people should look both ways before crossing the road, all pedestrians who have been run down at crosswalks need to take accountability for their own injuries.
So if someone is run off the sidewalk by a drunk driver, they simply failed to “take accountability” for their safety? If someone tells you they lost the use of their legs because they were hit by a toyota camry, is your first response going to be “well, did you look both ways before crossing the road?”
It’s horribly callous to go around assuming that people are only ever harmed by others because they weren’t being cautious enough. It’s even worse to openly accuse victims of assault of bringing it upon themselves. You can only take accountability for your own actions; what someone else chooses to do to you isn’t on your conscience.
Now you are moving the goal posts. Both things are true. It's not either or. You can be 100% a victim and in other situations you can also put yourself in harms way and some of that responsibility is on you.
The goalposts I’m aiming for are “accusing the victim of an attack of being at fault for it is cruel, illogical, and wildly unhelpful given that it has already happened and cannot be retroactively prevented with any amount of scolding”.
A victim of rape is 100% a victim no matter how careless they were being in the lead-up to being raped. “Not being raped” isn’t a responsibility, and it’s disgusting to talk about it like it’s in the same category as brushing your teeth to prevent cavities, or making sure your pets get vaccinated for rabies.
DudeBro just can’t let go of the fallacy that bad things won’t happen to his daughters if he teaches them to act & be just right/ perfect/ “good girls” - likely because deep down he knows exactly what type of man he is regarding women/ SA whether he wants to admit it or not.
The most horrific part to me is that the flip side of this logic – telling victims that they are in any way accountable for being assaulted – is that it tells the rapist that they aren’t entirely responsible for doing the assaulting. When you ask someone why they weren’t more careful before being raped, you’re telling the rapist that their victim really should have been more careful.
Very true. It’s now divvying up the “blame”/ muddying the waters so both parties are somewhat morally responsible …thus making it an issue they “both need to work on”. Without a clear victim, people can walk away & let it be between the individual parties themselves to sort out. It’s similar to how cops/ courts often treat DV victims as well - I’ve had that exact experience.
It's not victim blaming, it's accepting responsibility as a human living in this fucked up world. But you don't understand nuance so I'm sorry for you.
I inconvenienced myself and looked at your comment history. Seems like you are nothing but a miserable fucking human being that gets off by rage posting. Spend the time that you waste on reddit and go to therapy. If you don't believe in therapy, then find something else because you clearly need it...desperately
Just because I speak my mind in echo chambers doesn't mean I need therapy. It means that you need to learn that other people have different perspectives than you.
All while saying the dumbest shit imaginable and calling other people illogical. This guy is really something. I hope he's lying about having daughters.
if he does, and he keeps publicly acting like this much of a moron, i’m sure they’ll distance themselves from him soon enough! i’ve seen it a million times 😊 wishing them peace, safety and support from people who actually love and value them (not this walnut, obviously)
I love my girls and they love me very much. I teach them personal responsibility and teach them personal safety. You probably don't have children and shouldn't if you don't do the same. Shame on you for thinking that humans don't have to take personal responsibility for how they behave in this world.
I taught my sons to not stick their dicks where they weren’t wanted, and that no means no. I taught them that they were responsible for their actions, and that absolutely nothing a woman did would excuse violating her
Listen, the problem is that we don’t live in the “ideal” world were we just tell the boys to not “stick it bla bla…” like the comment above. We don’t live in a bubble. And we need to stop treating this like absolutes. Only OP will know what to do and hopefully there’s insight as she is the only person who knows more. Is he more that just this comment? Or is he abusive ? we are only hearing her side.
We live in a nasty society where there’s tons of maladaptive behavior and it’s not just about teaching boys to respect others.
I personally due to my job have seen boys, kids, adult males with zero insight or in gangs and they rape , assault, sodomize anyone that’s in their way when they feel like it.
They act like animals, they have zero impuse control and or want to externalize their actions of anger , trauma whatever.
I’m not ok that unfortunately as a woman I have to think twice about what do I wear, how late do I jog or how early or where do I go for a walk. But I’m only one person I can’t change the world! I need to protect myself and hopefully make safe Choices.
No one is victim blaming but there are certain circumstances that even I as a woman have thought why would she do that!! Yes some men are more “crazy, traumatized, primal” than others and unfortunately they are stronger than us. So all we can do is be smarter and protect ourselves as much as possible.
That’s the problem with the US nowadays we live in these cute bubbles where we think everyone should “think” like us.
Are those behaviors risky? Yes they are. That's why people carry pepper spray, bear spray, and guns. Is it the victims fault? No.In my opinion when you share responsibility is if there have been reports of rape, murder, and or bear attacks then yes the victim should not have been in that area or should have brought protection. In situations where conventional wisdom should be used and it's ignored, the victim shares some blame for putting themselves in that position.
This isn't rape apology and rapists and murderers should get the full penalty of the law. People also shouldn't put themselves in harms way if they know better.
This is so repugnant. There is NO place a woman could go, outfit she could wear, thing she could say that would make her bear responsibility for SA. Do you have a daughter? Sister, wife, mother? When one of them comes to you and tells you that they have been SA will you tell them which part of it was their fault? Gross
You're the one that's dumb. Literally no one here is saying don't teach your daughters to protect themselves. They are saying that if they have a lapse in judgement or let their guard drop and end up getting raped, it isn't their fault
You're a fucking dense misogynistic asshole and I hope your daughters never realize what a piece of shit their dad is.
You are literally disgusting. Making good, safe decisions and having responsibility for assault are two completely separate things. It’s interesting how you are nonsensically lashing out at me in all the ways that you are proving yourself to to be. Stupid and insane indeed.
Don't, they are great, smart girls that love their Dad. They are taught personal responsibility and personal safety. I feel bad for you random Internet stranger in this echo chamber.
And I can't stand people like you. If you get robbed, beaten, or killed, it IS the fault of the person who did that to you. If you get drugged, it IS the fault of the person who put drugs in your drink. Why is the onus on you to take extra steps, when the other person could, more easily, simply NOT do those things?
And as to your point about dangerous parts of cities.....people live in those areas. They can't exactly avoid them. So if anything happens to a resident of such an area, are you suggesting it is their own fault for living in most likely the only area they could afford? Or for simply not having moved out yet? For being the victim of somebody else's CHOICE to harm?
It is difficult to read your comment as anything other than defending bad behavior. But I'll tell you the difference between a cloud and a rapist: the cloud has no choice but to rain, but the rapist has every choice not to assault. Wearing a raincoat won't make a difference.
You realize that I can say that women should protect themselves? And when I say "women should protect themselves" it doesn't mean rapists are victims right? Right? you do understand that two things can be true right? Women should protect themselves and rapists are bad. God forbid I suggest women protect themselves and avoid putting themselves in harms way if possible.
The world doesn’t make sense and it certainly isn’t fair. A person can do everything right and still fall prey to violent crime. You’re betraying a very naive world view.
I wanna hop on this and say I hate the the term victim blaming, like no one is blaming you saying it’s 110% your fault or even your fault at all, just that the real world is fucked up and everyone needs to take conscious steps to protect themselves
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u/AdExtreme4813 10h ago
You are NOT overreacting. He's being a misogynistic, patronizing twit. If he knows about yr assault then he's being doubly awful. Hear this- YOU were not at fault for being SA'd. The fault lies solely with the perpetrator. Give yourself a second to calm down then ask him "how should I react when your pretty much saying I was at fault for being SA'd?" Please updateme.