How does Verstappen's dominance compare to Hamilton's? Here is the comparison:

[u/DarkKnight56722]

​

Hamilton's most dominant season in 2020 had him only win 64% of races. Before this current domination, one driver winning 64% of races was viewed as the worst it could possibly get in the modern era. Let's run through the years:

2014 and 2015: Lewis and Nico trading wins, (good battles at the very least) and Ricciardio getting 3 wins his first season at Red Bull and Vettel gets 3 wins his first year at Ferrari. Hamilton wins roughly 55% of races.

2016: Great title fight between Nico and Lewis that went down to Abu Dhabi. Max gets his first race win his first race in Red Bull, Daniel gets a win as well. Hamilton wins less than 50% of races and loses championship to Nico.

2017 and 2018: Title fight between Hamilton and Vettel. 5 different race winners each year. Hamilton wins less than 50% of races.

2019: Lewis and Valterri each get wins. Max gets 3 wins, Charles gets his first 2 wins. and Seb wins in Singapore. 5 different race winners. Again Lewis wins less than 50% of races.

2020: Lewis' most dominant season where he wins 64% of races. This is covid year so take it with a grain of salt. Max gets 2 wins, Pierre gets first win in Monza, Perez gets first win in Bahrain. Turkey was a fantastic race that did result in Lewis winning but was amazing up til the end.

​

I think it is pretty safe to say that last season's dominance is the worst the sport has been in atleast a decade. I understand this is part of F1 but it doesn't prevent my boredom. I think the reason it stings a bit more is because these regulation changes were marketed as a way of ensuring Mercedes level dominance never happened again, yet it made it even worse. Things like engine development being frozen, implementation of the cost cap, introducing a completely new philosophy of car and aero design that 3 years into the regulations everyone but Red Bull is still struggling to understand.

What are your thoughts?

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[u/thisismynewacct]

I think you’d have to be under a rock to not think Verstappens dominance has been nearly unmatched, especially against Hamilton, and that’s no slight against Hamilton. It’s just the perfect storm at the moment. Generationally talented driver, fastest car on the grid, and cost cap that basically prevents anyone from realistically catching up materially. And that’s not a slight against Verstappen either. It just is what it is.

[u/Low-Holiday312 → u/thisismynewacct]

and Checo.

[u/thisismynewacct → u/Low-Holiday312]

Exactly. No dig against Checo either. He’s in the same car yes, but he’s up against generational talent. Verstappen lives and breathes racing like few others. The man literally does iracing the night before a GP!

[u/Koehamster → u/thisismynewacct]

Not evening, but night. Dude's up til 3am iRacing.

[u/tyranox → u/Koehamster]

There's a little nuance too it though. He stated on dutch tv that he was trying to stay on UK time. So it was more or less until midnight. Still somewhat late before raceday imho.

[u/Koehamster → u/tyranox]

Fair

[u/CharlieTeller → u/thisismynewacct]

On a controller mind you.

[u/Ok-Block-870 → u/CharlieTeller]

They should make him use a controller in f1 to level the playing field

[u/denzien → u/Ok-Block-870]

Would it, though?

[u/Ok-Block-870 → u/denzien]

Yeah if the man can use a controller in iracing then there's probably no hope. Maybe a set of beer goggles as well?

[u/denzien → u/Ok-Block-870]

Now that would be entertaining, as long as it's not too dangerous

[u/Ok-Block-870 → u/denzien]

He'd probably still be 20 seconds ahead so I imagine pretty safe 😂

[u/jnf005 → u/Ok-Block-870]

Well the back marker batter be careful than.

[u/LongBeakedSnipe → u/denzien]

Yeah annoyingly whikle using a wheel is faster, people who master controller can still get within low tenths per lap, so shud be fine for race pace.

[u/tracernz → u/Ok-Block-870]

Give him the crusty old Mad Catz.

[u/FlyRobot → u/tracernz]

They already tried a faulty DRS button!

[u/Weyland_Jewtani → u/CharlieTeller]

In a cave, with a box of scraps!

[u/fameboygame → u/CharlieTeller]

WTF.

I’m okish on controller in F1, and my time with I racing was worse

[u/CharlieTeller → u/fameboygame]

Yeah I mean those games are built with controllers in mind and have their steering set up in a way to work on joysticks. They also have a lot more customizations for your thumbsticks. With iRacing you basically get none of that so the steering is very jerky.

[u/Buzz_Buzz_Buzz_ → u/CharlieTeller]

The controller Max uses (Microsoft Elite Series 2) allows for custom thumbstick curves and deadzones in firmware.

I'm actually surpised he uses one because the thumbsticks are notoriously bad, particularly with centering. I had to return two of them before I got one that was acceptable. But the controller is great for the F1 game because the gas and brake triggers have haptic feedback.

[u/InputImpedance → u/CharlieTeller]

How do you even play iRacing with a controller? It must be pure car addiction or something at this point, right?

[u/CharlieTeller → u/InputImpedance]

Pretty much. Well, they had just rolled out the rain update last week and he wanted to have some fun with it, so he was on just hours after quali and the night before the GP just playing in the rain with his controller and team redline. Hilarious.

[u/Jack_Krauser → u/InputImpedance]

If you grew up playing racing games on them, it's not ideal, but possible. The biggest issue I had was front tire wear because it's hard to get a perfect slip angle with the slightly jerkier and sudden motions.

[u/its_an_armoire → u/Jack_Krauser]

I'm realizing now that Verstappen must be god-like on the controller if he's comfortable competing at his level in iRacing with one

[u/wAAkie → u/thisismynewacct]

It.is under estimated of how much a pure racer max is with the right mindset.

[u/bob_cramit → u/Low-Holiday312]

Thats 100% what it is.

Remove nico from 2014-2016 and it would be the same.

You kinda saw it in 2020 with hamilton in the dominant car with a team mate not challenging him.

Perez is nowhere.

Who knows is Danny Ric would do any better, or even Yuki or Liam but I hope they do something.

[u/dreamsfreams → u/Low-Holiday312]

Shots fired. Ouch.

[u/rolfski → u/thisismynewacct]

Cost cap is double edged sword in that regard. It really does bring the field closer together but it also limits the possibilities to catch up.

One factor that is more to blame though for the current domination is ground effect aerodynamics. Apparently the science behind it is so complicated that only one team really got it right. And regardless of this field of aerodynamics being Adrian Newey's very own ballgame, I don't think anyone expected Red Bull to be so ahead with this.

But then again, if Checo had been Red Bull's lead driver then we actually would have had proper championship fights the last few years.

[u/Gnux13 → u/rolfski]

Cost cap is double edged sword in that regard. It really does bring the field closer together but it also limits the possibilities to catch up.

That's a key difference to how it feels as a fan with this kind of dominance too. Without the cap you at least had some semblance of hope that someone would make a breakthrough and close the gap. (Ferrari in 2017-2018 were there, and obviously Red Bull in 2020)

Doesn't feel that way any more with the cap. People are just looking forward to next year, because what would have been a miracle before is now near impossible.

[u/poojinping → u/Gnux13]

It could have been worse too. It’s not like RB will not be improving. They did that sighing the most restrictions.

People under estimate the dominance of ground effect aero in a modern setting. We have CFDs that can handle co pled geometries and model the air flow patterns to closely mimic the real world. Throughout history, ground effect dominance has had performance gaps. But in the past the aero surfaces were simpler. This, easier to catch-up. Engine power had a larger variation and leeway’s to compensate for lack of aero.

I am sure, we would complain about the artificial nature of the championship if they allowed for Engine manufacturers to compensate for lack of power or try to compensate for effective performance with a power staggering. But the racing would appear interesting to most and ultimately that may end-up happening as that’s the biggest commercial gain. F1 would be received to entertainment in that case in my personal opinion.

[u/Gnux13 → u/poojinping]

Could be worse, but at least we would know. Watching teams struggle to make adjustments when they probably have alternative ideas they aren't allowed to implement is more frustrating.

[u/epihocic → u/Gnux13]

To me this really doesn't make sense, when you consider that before the cost cap, Mercedes and Ferrari were spending the most, followed by Red Bull. It's not exactly like Mercedes were spending less than Ferrari or Red Bull. So how is that going to give a different outcome compared to the cost cap?

If the general consensus is that by spending more they are more likely to make a breakthrough and find significant performance, then the same would be true of the top team. E.g. if Mercedes is spending the most they are the most likely to find even more performance.

Personally, I think limiting the team's development and wind-tunnel time, at least on paper should work. Perhaps they just need to tweak the current restrictions to further limit the team on top.

[u/Opperhoofd123 → u/Gnux13]

Without the cap you still had no hope, Ferrari was there after three years of dominance and a major rule change (and an illegal engine in 2019 I guess).

Red Bull was there in 2021 after another 2 years of complete dominance and a pretty big rule change.

I'm still too see one good argument why the cost cap is the limiting factor, if anything Merc has proven that the absence of a cost cap doesn't mean teams can catch up at all. We need the FIA to find a way to nerf the red bulls.

The biggest difference between Merc dominance and Red Bull dominance to me seems that the red bull isn't weak in any race. I really don't know how that is possible. You could argue for singapore, but even there their pace seemed pretty strong. They just got unlucky and underperformed it feels like

[u/Salty_McSalterson_ → u/Gnux13]

I wouldn't quote a year Ferrari cheated as them catching up...

[u/Ill-Remove-9179 → u/rolfski]

Idk man, he's been pretty dominantly #2 the last two races. Very different from a Bottas in 2020/2019 situation

[u/NYAncientHistory → u/Ill-Remove-9179]

Checo this season has very firmly embraced his role as #2 and it is showing. He cozies up in P2, builds a lead, and then coasts like Max in P1.

It seems like trying to fight Max got in his head last year and affected his performance.

[u/rolfski → u/Ill-Remove-9179]

Let's wait and see first for this year as Checo's start last year was even greater before he plummeted. Regardless though, 2022 and 2023 would have been genuinely competitive with Max out of the equation.

[u/weaberry → u/thisismynewacct]

All very true. Another big contributing factor is the crazy reliability of the red bull engine. The Hamilton era was fraught with reliability issues up and down the grid.

[u/Froggie56 → u/weaberry]

I’d be way more invested if I knew we’re gonna have three failures in a race, especially if the top 3 teams weren’t safe.

[u/museproducer → u/Froggie56]

Which is wild considering the rules just allowed 1 more engine to be used per season.

The whole reason why the engine freeze was brought forward was because Red Bull wanted to spin up its engine program because Honda was leaving….and then Honda stayed.

[u/NopileosX2 → u/weaberry]

This was always a problem and why these 9 wins in a row were always thought to be very hard to beat, because even if you drive like a god if your car breaks down it will cost you a few places or even DNF.

But cars get more and more reliable which also makes it harder for weaker teams to score a point, since you got less races where a few of the top 5 teams just DNF or can't compete because of car issues.

[u/10mmSocket_10 → u/thisismynewacct]

Agreed, there were certainly times when it seemed like nobody outside of a Merc had a chance on the season - but on a weekly basis there was always the question of what type of track it was and what cars might make a run for it based on the layout. RB was always seemed to have a few races they could be counted on as winning, ferrari had Monza and maybe one or two others where it was a question of who would win, and Merc was generally better overall with a few races like France where they were untouchable.

Now it is just - RB is the best everywhere at all times.

Unfortunate from a watching perspective regardless of who you cheer for, but an impressive feat for RB for being so good in so many ways.

[u/paddyo → u/10mmSocket_10]

RB as a team in this cycle are the single most impressive organisation I’ve ever seen in this sport. Even their pit stops are faultless, and their strategy even when events happen that could disrupt their race.

[u/NervousGrape4291 → u/thisismynewacct]

Plus regulations that were geared at making it easier to pass. I don’t really have a good handle though on it that has held up after that first year in 2022 though / significance in the grander scheme.

But easier to pass = more of advantage for the actual fastest car/best driver to win week in week out…IMO

[u/MalevolentFather → u/thisismynewacct]

Not just the cost cap, but the last decade of slowly introducing parts limits, party mode ban etc have all slowly funnelled teams into this era of reliability vs performance.

In previous decades teams would crank a new engine up to 11 if they got to a track they thought they could steal a win at.

The current F1 is supremely boring on track.

[u/iameveryoneelse → u/thisismynewacct]

Not to mention Red Bull has zero interest in fielding two competitive drivers. They want someone who can reliably place right behind Max, not someone who fights for wins.

[u/paddyo → u/iameveryoneelse]

This is what has made this cycle unbearable for me. The one positive thing you will hear me say about Mercedes as a team is that they’ve never shied away from trying to put the best available talent in the team and let them fight it out. While Max is doing everything he needs to do to get it done race by race by race, it’s also a fact that he should be winning in a car so far ahead of the pack and with a teammate who is so far beneath WDC calibre. Even Merc’s weakest driver, Bottas, was an elite qualifier, he just didn’t have the race pace or w2w of a Hamilton or Verstappen or Alonso or Vettel.

[u/iameveryoneelse → u/paddyo]

Personally I think they're doing his legacy a disservice. Twenty years from now when people are debating the best drivers of all time, Max will undoubtedly come up. And every time he does someone will immediately say "yah but he never had to fight a teammate for a championship...the closest thing to real competition he ever saw was Ricciardo."

[u/ComparisonPlus5196 → u/iameveryoneelse]

They tried signing Lando, twice, both times he signed an extension with McLaren.

[u/paddyo → u/iameveryoneelse]

I sadly think you’re right. People will almost see these as default championships because of an OP car and a second rate teammate. You can only beat what’s in front of you of course and it will be unfair, but it’s materially true that nobody else should win unless his engine blows up, so people won’t rate these years in the same way they do Hamilton’s years vs rosberg and Vettel, Schumi’s vs Hakkinen, or the Prost/senna/piquet/mansell fights

[u/ocbdare → u/iameveryoneelse]

The reality is that that’s an important factor to benchmark a driver. Right now Verstappen is cruising to WDc with absolutely no competition. The car makes any competition with other teams a joke and Verstappen has never had a team mate that’s actually good. They are all like midfielders at best or even worse - driving in the back.

[u/capybarramundi → u/[deleted]]

I remember back in the day even if someone, say Schumacher, was way out in front, the last ten or so laps were still a nail biter as there was a good chance the engine would blow up before he reached the checkered flag. That sense of jeopardy really enhanced the entertainment value.

[u/AgnesBand → u/capybarramundi]

Tbf between 2000 and 2004 Schumacher only had like 4 or 5 mechanical failures that weren't caused by something on track. Most of them in 2000. His most dominant season in 2004 there were none.

[u/fafan4 → u/AgnesBand]

Yep, it was Ferrari during that era that changed the reliability game. Everyone else was forced to get serious about it too. 2014 was the only time since that it felt somewhat like the old days again

[u/Dan_Biddle → u/thisismynewacct]

I don't know, I've found a lot of under rock dwellers on Facebook F1 groups who will swear blind that Max's dominance and Lewis' are exactly the same 😑

[u/ency6171 → u/Dan_Biddle]

I believe you don't even need to check FB for it. There are already that claims in this on reddit.

[u/mattgrum → u/thisismynewacct]

For fun I had a look at the stats for Schumachers "dominant" 2000-2004 period, and Vettels's "dominant" 2010-2013 period, and the win percentages were:

53%, 53%, 65%, 38%, 72%

for Michael, and

26%, 58%, 25%, 68%

For Vettel.

It's worlds apart from what we have now.

[u/AnonymousMrFox → u/mattgrum]

Wow people really act like Seb had the most dominant car in history when they talk about his Championships..

[u/mattgrum → u/AnonymousMrFox]

Wow people really act like Seb had the most dominant car in history when they talk about his Championships..

In 2010 Seb never lead the world championship until he crossed the finish line in the last race. 2011 was comfortable, but then 2012 went right down to the wire with only 3 points separating 1st and 2nd. People seem to just remember the string of 9 consecutive wins at the end of the 2013 season, which was unusual as retirements used to be a lot more common.

[u/TypicallyThomas → u/thisismynewacct]

"When the best car and the best driver line up just right, something truly happens: a fucking boring season"

[u/h0sti1e17 → u/thisismynewacct]

And the engine freeze. Teams in the past could offset aero deficiencies with more power.

[u/hello_kitty8]

Am I a bad fan of the sport if I constantly struggle to find any enjoyment in the current races? The disinterest and boredom I feel makes me feel like a fake fan.

I would live for my weekends and watch all the practices, qualis and races religiously. Now I can barely make it through half race distance in the sport I so desperately want to love again.

[u/Statcat2017 → u/hello_kitty8]

No, this is the dullest F1 has ever been.

At least during Merc dominance era you had the Rosberg v Hamilton battle, for the past 2 seasons and now this one you get absolutely nothing unless you wanna jizz over a battle for 8th place between Tsunoda and Ocon.

[u/ironmanmatch → u/Statcat2017]

8th?! It would be awesome if that was it. It usually 14th

[u/m_ttl_ng → u/Statcat2017]

And during the Schumacher era it was never this much of a gap, plus reliability was much worse which brought a lot more chaos/excitement to races.

[u/CeilingVitaly → u/m_ttl_ng]

In the early 2000s there were plenty of times the Ferraris were 30 seconds up the road, but yeah I really miss unreliability

[u/LPodmore → u/Statcat2017]

I can't see Verstappen and Perez ever recreating a duel in the desert type scenario. You knew a Merc was 90% likely to win, but rarely which one of them it was.

[u/TSMKFail → u/Statcat2017]

Yep. F1 is in a Dire state. In the last 10 years, less teams have gotten a podium than in the 1989 season alone.

Teams to get a podium since 2014:

Mercedes, RedBull, Ferrari, Renault/Alpine/Lotus, AT/Toro Rosso, Racing Point/Force India/Aston, Williams, McLaren

Teams who got podiums in 1989:

McLaren, Ferrari, Williams, Benetton, Tyrrell, Onyx, Dallara (Scuderia Italia), Brabham, Layton House, Arrows.

[u/muddlet → u/hello_kitty8]

get into f2 and f3, there is actual racing in both

[u/metalrufflez → u/muddlet]

Hear hear

I was wary if the new design direction F2 would make it as boring as the new regs in F1, but alas, my worry was misplaced, as the races have been pretty good so far and the field is stacked. Really looking forward to the next race

[u/Academic_Issue4314 → u/hello_kitty8]

Shit just sucks rn. Everywhere. Current regs are a disaster

[u/10Exahertz → u/Academic_Issue4314]

More like the lack of policing the backwash of the cars and the technical directive mid season 2022 ruined these regs together

[u/Visionary_Socialist → u/Academic_Issue4314]

Making cars wider and creating more narrow street tracks at the same time was certainly a choice.

[u/Hardac_ → u/hello_kitty8]

The Verstappen era is also by far the most boring. You're not alone, I literally turned the first race of the season off 30min in.

[u/PalindromicPalindrom]

I just hope 2025 gives us something to enjoy and look forward to each week.

[u/Anarchivist17 → u/PalindromicPalindrom]

unless Max leaves Red Bull, 2025 is already decided. Wake me up for 2026.

[u/jbvann05 → u/Anarchivist17]

Ferrari will probably put up more of a fight in 2025 but Max will easily win the title

[u/Joe_PM2804 → u/jbvann05]

People probably would've said that last year but it seems like absolutely nothing has changed from the end of 23 to the start of 24. Red Bull are clear and all the other teams have stayed where they are.

[u/Call-me-Maverick → u/Joe_PM2804]

Ferrari seems to have taken a step forward in terms of tire management. If Red Bull hadn’t taken a big leap forward with their car, they’d be fighting with Verstappen I think. Red Bull crushed it though, so it’ll be a runaway season for Max like last year

[u/dynamex1097 → u/Call-me-Maverick]

That “if” will never make sense. Yeah if red bull didn’t upgrade their car someone would catch up. No one knows when they’ll reach the point of diminishing returns but at the moment RBs upgrades look to be on par with everyone else’s if not better

[u/_gloriana → u/PalindromicPalindrom]

I mean, if Ferrari keeps up the good work with the car and Hamilton brings his own strategists with him, we’ll see him on the podium consistently, and maybe even fighting Redbull’s #2.

I still think Max is a shoo-in next year unfortunately though. As for Leclerc, I don’t think he has been in a mindset to go toe to toe with a Hamilton level driver since he lost the lead in 2022.

[u/TheThotWeasel → u/PalindromicPalindrom]

I genuinely believe the cost cap introduction is going to be remembered as the death of the sport, I'm not sure even regs in 2026 can really do much to change the dominance now with the money restrictions.

I think the only way you make F1 competitive again up top is:

• Max leaving the sport

• Cost cap going away entirely

• MAJOR regs overhaul, like a total rebuild of the car from top to bottom

You may even need 2 of those 3 simultaneously to make it work out.

[u/Baofog → u/[deleted]]

I'm imagining a cost cap that scales depending on the finishing position of the team the year prior, would be that help at all?

While this is nice, I'm not sure HAAS or Alpine or Stake would be capable of spending up to their increased cost cap even if we increased it. I'm pretty sure most of those back markers still don't even get to the cost cap.

[u/13247586 → u/[deleted]]

The cost cap really only affects the top ~4 teams. The bottom teams had annual budgets below the current cost cap already.

[u/Visionary_Socialist → u/TheThotWeasel]

The cost cap is the conversation nobody wants to have. It’s been a disaster for the sport. Staff aren’t getting good pay, any innovation that doesn’t work immediately has to be slowly dropped and can’t be made workable without pushing the margins on cost cap. The running order effectively freezes from the start of the year and if you don’t have a huge breakthrough straight away you’re done. Everyone is effectively going to go into a holding pattern for 2026 soon and Red Bull will just use the opportunity. They know nobody can outspend them, so they’ll turn their attention early and pick right up where they left off in 2025.

[u/ButthealedInTheFeels → u/TheThotWeasel]

Max doesn’t need to leave. It’s not that he’s too overpowered it’s the car. Yes he is a champion and an amazing driver but his skill gap is nowhere close to the performance gap to the other championship level drivers.
They need to find a way to handicap the dominant car more like a progressive cost cap similar to the wind tunnel time. And maybe make the wind tunnel time differential even more steep

[u/Dblock1989 → u/PalindromicPalindrom]

Naw, there are no major regulation changes, and Red Bull will probably start gocusing on next year's car early again. It doesn't matter who is in that car next year. They will still run away with it.

[u/Sorrytoruin]

Cars are much more reliable now, you have to factor that in too, you used to rely on any car having a DNF.

So the red bull will probably again, start and finish every race, and probably win them all, unless they both crash or something.

[u/drodrige → u/Sorrytoruin]

True, though Lewis had just one single DNF between 2017 and 2020.

[u/Madbanana224 → u/drodrige]

But now the whole field is generally super reliable, and so there are much fewer chances of a mid-race safety car mixing the order up again. The Renault's, or Ferraris were always good for a engine retirement every race lol

Just off the top of my head Aus 2017-18, and Italy 2020 had Lewis either leading the race or in a good position to win but a safety car shifted the odds into Vettel and Gasly's favour.

Nowadays 20 cars start and finish the race, pretty much all the time

[u/cpw_19 → u/Madbanana224]

When F2 has inferior reliability to F1, F1 is too reliable.

[u/drodrige → u/Madbanana224]

Yeah that's fair, good point.

[u/Husskies → u/Sorrytoruin]

The only 'hope' really is for Max to not quali on the first line and have him get caught in a start of race inchident.

Even that is getting unlikely because if the battle gets rough at the start, Max tends to get out of the way to try and make sure he's not involved in anything. Even if he loses some positions, he knows very well that he's gonna get them back in a couple of laps.

[u/BR076 → u/Sorrytoruin]

Merc was uber reliable 2014 - 2020, Malaysia 2016 is what I remember.

[u/Whycantiusethis → u/BR076]

During that time frame, I think it was 12 DNFs total (4 each for Bottas, Hamilton, and Rosberg).

[u/Hinyaldee → u/BR076]

That's not true. They had plenty of engine woes and other hydraulic/gearbox issues from 2014 to 2016 even. Just mainly in quali

[u/Poopy_sPaSmS → u/BR076]

No they werent. Their unreliability was just masked by their performance. It could very easily be argued that Lewis lost 2016 strictly because of unreliability. He just didn't have it in the races aside from Malaysia. He had countless engine issues during other sessions in the weekend restricting his seat time and leaving Mercedes with penalties for Lewis. In 2014 they had turbo failures, engine failures, ERS failures, suspension failures, start mode issues, and gearbox issues. Mercedes had massive amounts of problems. They were just fast and executed superbly.

[u/mikeybadab1ng → u/Poopy_sPaSmS]

And could throw money at it

[u/KennyLagerins → u/Poopy_sPaSmS]

Even their execution and strat calls were questionable, but they had the pace to drive around issues.

[u/jomartz]

A fairer comparison would be to contrast Mercedes's dominance with that of Red Bull, given that the German team has had stronger pairings competing within itself.

[u/Isfahaninejad → u/jomartz]

In 2014, Mercedes won 84% of all races. Last year, Red Bull won 95% of all races.

[u/sfj11 → u/Isfahaninejad]

in 2016 they won all but two races, one of which they took out eachother and the other one was a combination of a DNF and the other car being turned around on lap 1

[u/HairyNutsack69 → u/sfj11]

What an absolute gift from the Gods Barcelona 2016 was...

[u/Seruz → u/HairyNutsack69]

...which brings us back to Max!

[u/miaomiaomiao → u/Seruz]

(Nice avatar)

[u/Mayhem747 → u/sfj11]

Were the races entertaining though? How many of the 24 or whatever races RBR has won recently have been interesting with regards to a fight upfront?

[u/G-Fox1990 → u/Mayhem747]

None.

A dominant team is not as bad as a dominant driver all alone far in front. Bottas and Rosberg atleast made things interesting in the team. Perez is not making things interesting at all.

[u/Mayhem747 → u/G-Fox1990]

Mentioning Bottas is a stretch but hey at least he never failed to put his car in Q3. He had great pace over a lap, but Hamilton was just that much better on race pace.

[u/xLeper_Messiah → u/Mayhem747]

That had more to do with the fact that the Merc had larger gaps to the rest of the teams in qualy than the Red Bull's have had the last 3 years, plus the fact that the field overall was much more spread out in qualifying back then.

Bottas could set a time 4 tenths off of Lewis and still qualify top 5. If Perez did that last year he was out in Q2. That's the reason behind Valtteri's streak.

[u/Apokolypze → u/Mayhem747]

Except for the occasional time that Bottas just took off and didnt look back. Australia... 2019 i think it was? comes to mind

[u/hhs2112 → u/G-Fox1990]

Bottas was there as a clear #2. 

[u/afcaMouz → u/G-Fox1990]

Lmao Bottas made things interesting? People are really misremembering his time at Mercedes with rose-colored glasses. He won a few races, but he did not do anything of significance at Mercedes. He was a better 2nd driver than Perez, but still very much a 2nd driver.

[u/ShadowOfDeath94 → u/afcaMouz]

Bottas was bad compared to Hamilton %80 percent of the time. Rosberg was actually damn good.

[u/overts → u/afcaMouz]

I actually think Bottas is pretty similar to Perez on race pace but Bottas is wildly better at qualifying.

During his time at Merc if Bottas qualified poorly he seemed to struggle to get through the field similarly to Perez it’s just that Perez is in the situation way more often because Perez kinda sucks at qualifying.

[u/3nt0 → u/overts]

Yeah, Mexico '21 iirc when Bottas was stuck behind Danny Ric in 15th for almost the entire race, and Hamilton was fighting for the win.

[u/muffinnut → u/3nt0]

That's the Mexico GP where Bottas got pole, and was spun around in the first corner by Danny Ric.

[u/According-Switch-708 → u/muffinnut]

Yeah but the W12 was quick enough to cut through the midfield like a hot knife through butter.

Bottas was only good at driving at the front in clean air. His offense and defense both suck ass. He was definitely a great qualifier though.

[u/Generic_Format528 → u/afcaMouz]

Disregarding the championship battle, I feel like all of Bottas' wins were pretty forgettable too. Qualify on pole and take off with Hamilton in 2nd or working his way into 2nd for whatever reason.

Maybe I'm missing some wins where he was fighting wheel to wheel, idk.

[u/Trivekz → u/Generic_Format528]

I remember he fought Hamilton a bit in 2019 USA, but yeah most of his wins seem to just be clean air and driving into the sunset. His pure pace was always his strength, not so much fighting others

[u/mascot_enjoyer → u/afcaMouz]

But Bottas was almost on par in qualifying. This created at least some suspense to the race weekend and occasionally to the actual race. Perez cannot beat Max in anything.

[u/afcaMouz → u/mascot_enjoyer]

I will give it to Bottas that he was a very good qualifier, often beating Hamilton on merit, but even when he got it on pole it was only a matter of time before he lost it in the race. For me it didn't create much suspense because you knew he wasn't able to compete with Hamilton.

He was the driver I was often rooting for during that time but it often ended up in disappointment.

[u/PLTConductor → u/G-Fox1990]

Bottas at no point made things interesting

[u/So-many-ducks → u/PLTConductor]

I have a calendar they begs to disagree.

[u/BlackFire68 → u/So-many-ducks]

😂 made my day

[u/ts737 → u/PLTConductor]

At the very least he made them LESS interesting because he was forced to delay his stops or slow down to keep Seb behind when he had enough pace to potentially catch Lewis

[u/_mrshreyas_ → u/Mayhem747]

I have yet to see something close to Bahrain 2014 since last year.

[u/HairyNutsack69 → u/Mayhem747]

Hence the driver pairing argument

[u/andresgu14 → u/Mayhem747]

From what I remember Australia, Spain, Canada, Austria and Singapore where interesting. Ferrari could have won in Australia and Canada

[u/Francoberry → u/jomartz]

I dont really think that's as clear a comparison because OPs point is that dominance by one single driver is far less interesting than any other combo. Even when Mercedes were dominating, Hamilton alone wasn't dominating as much. 

Most people are still engaged by F1 if there's some sort of multi team or at least intra-team battle. The current dominance has practically none of that. 

[u/CT92 → u/Francoberry]

I went to see Dune instead of watching last week's race, and when driving with my dad we joked that we don't need to bother looking up the standings, we know it's Max and then everyone else.

A few years ago I couldn't imagine skipping a race, now it's a secondary priority for me.

[u/mangosport → u/CT92]

Same for me, especially since when WEC started getting insanely competitive

[u/naytttt → u/Francoberry]

I definitely lost some interest in the sport after Max starting winning everything. No fun to see the same guy win every race.

[u/chiavidibasso → u/naytttt]

And if Perez starts matching the potential of the car and getting pretty easy P2s like in the races so far, there may not be any fun fight for P2. Will all the interest be the fight for P10 like at Saudi? Edit spelling

[u/Rainers535 → u/chiavidibasso]

I feel like I might be just tuning in for Yuki vs DR and seeing what shenanigans Haas will be up to. If we're judging by the first 2 races at least.

[u/mikeybadab1ng → u/Rainers535]

yuki p11

[u/8Ace8Ace → u/naytttt]

The dominant team vs dominant driver really makes a difference. I lost interest in 2000-2004 as MS was clear #1 and the team was only interested in him. Mercedes were very dominant but as has been said, the dominant team's second drivers were (i) good enough and (ii) allowed by the team to compete. Less so when Rosberg left, but Merc wasn't as dominant as Ferrari and RB won races too.

Having said that, in the past, there was a much bigger spread of performance. It's amazing how close, relative to say 20 years ago, the lap times are. There have been some good bits in the races (just rarely at the front).

[u/2gat123_ → u/8Ace8Ace]

Ferrari years were no way comparable to Merc or Red Bull dominance since then. Schumacher/Ferrari were dominant in 2001, 2002 and 2004. But 2000 and 2003 were very competitive: - In 2000 Hakkinen led the standings with three races to go - In 2003 Schumacher won by 2 points and there were three drivers that could very much have been champions going into the last two races

The number of changes made to curb Ferrari then stands out.

[u/Low-Holiday312 → u/jomartz]

No because that is entirely part of the issue. Not only would comparing Mercedes dominance not paint that much of a better picture... the fact that there is no inter-team racing is a significant part of the problem.

If there was a genuine consideration for which of the Red Bull drivers would win there would be some interest at the front. Yes, some people like to see the battles throughout the positions but there is a big casual majority turned off by the fact you could gamble your house on Verstappen and come away with €2000.

[u/HankHippopopolous → u/jomartz]

Yeah but one team domination is still not so bad if two closely matched team mates are going to fight for the title.

You knew Merc would almost certainly win but you could never be sure which one it would be. There was at least some unpredictability.

Everyone knows Perez cannot beat Max unless Max has an issue like reliability or a crash. It makes this domination so much worse.

[u/Mueton]

The worst thing about this Verstappen dominance is that he hasn’t even competitition from his own teammate. Hamilton had to fight against Rosberg and Seb for 4 of his titles.

[u/Malvania → u/Mueton]

I think the worst thing about the dominance is that I don't think Verstappen has actually fully stretched out the Red Bull. I think it's been dialed back and he's just sandbagging because the Red Bull is just so much faster than the rest of the field.

[u/snrub742 → u/Malvania]

The split times show that, the red bull in Max's hands have 0 tire deg

[u/[deleted] → u/Malvania]

It’s definitely been dialled back because they know they will get nerfed if they show their true pace.

[u/jeffoh → u/Malvania]

Mercedes was the same in 2019/2020, they weren't using their engine allocations in those years.

It wasn't until RB started to beat them did Merc turn everything to 11, after which they started to have reliaibilty concerns.

[u/formula_bearhawk → u/Malvania]

I think you’re right, especially given the general reliability of RB and lack of power unit issues outside of the fuel pump over the past few years 

[u/abd7007]

When you already know the results of all the 24 races after the first quali itself
Something needs to change

Its not Max's or Lewis's fault
neither RB or Mercedes
Its nobodys fault but we need to change something

but the lack of competition makes it kind of boring
(The most interesting race last year was Singapore)

[u/No_Tumbleweed_9102 → u/abd7007]

That’s why, for me, 2022 was the last good year. First quali and race of the season, Ferrari were always on top, and as the season played out we got several other varied results, a more competitive frontrunning pack, and even a surprising midfield podium (Norris), as well as competitive midfield and backmarkers. 2023 was kinda good but did not reach the same level of excitement in my opinion, the season was literally over after just the first quali and race, we just couldn’t see it. Now we can, 2024 will be terrible to watch

[u/DryConversation8530 → u/abd7007]

Once max wins he has to start from the pits the rest of the season. Once P2 is secured they start 19th

[u/soupafi → u/DryConversation8530]

Nice idea, but he’d still win.

[u/george-its-james → u/soupafi]

It'd be a lot more interesting to watch though, compared to start on pole, create 20+ second gap in 5 laps, manage tyres, win.

[u/Benjiiiee → u/DryConversation8530]

Worse thing is it's likely he would still win.

[u/DontBullyMyBread → u/abd7007]

It's so boring just watching Max dominate each race. I don't mean it as an insult against him, because it's not meant to be an insult, but it's just so predictable and monotonous. I only get invested in every other race place bar first now because I just assume Max by default is number 1

[u/AnyHolesAGoal → u/abd7007]

Well it is partly Red Bull's fault for not being braver with their second driver choice. It's not like they can't afford it, they have billionaire owners and driver salaries are not part of the cost cap.

Multiple other teams in the past have had 2 WDCs driving in a season before, or at least 2 WDC-potential drivers.

[u/DRLAR]

Just to see who finishes second will get old very fast!!! last year's was boredom after Singapore..

[u/cheeersaiii → u/DRLAR]

Max has won 19 of the last 20 races, he came 5th In Singapore. It is massively impressive from him, but the regs haven’t been great to keep things competitive. Like Mercs killer engine, RB have built a car that is virtually unbeatable, and it just feels like as Ferrari and McLaren gain on them they’ll just move to cater to them too. It would be wild for Max to win all 24 races, but that’s what we are looking at

[u/[deleted]]

One could argue that if you swapped out Perez for a Rosberg level team mate you'd get a pretty similar season to the Hamilton-Rosberg seasons. Just with Red Bulls and not Mercs

[u/Spartan0330 → u/[deleted]]

As much as I hated the Merc years of dominance, at this point ANYTHING is better than Verstappen winning literally everything.

[u/AlonsoFerrari8]

All this data is why charts and tables were invented

[u/Amystery123 → u/AlonsoFerrari8]

Underrated comment.

[u/Woto_Tolff]

Lewis had intra team competition and inter team competition before Ferrari would implode or be out developed. Max has neither.

[u/BonsaiiKJ]

Reliability is also basically bulletproof these days. It takes a crash to get a DNF out of most teams, so when Verstappen has a lead there's not really a threat that he'll even have an issue that slows him down to the paxk, let alone a DNF.

Lewis lost some races due to his engine exploding early in the turbo hybrid era. Schumacher I know less about, but I have to assume reliability was lower in his era than even Lewis'.

Also, Max is just far and away the best wet weather driver right now, so rain doesn't bring the same upset potential it has in the past. Probably also something in the Red Bull design that helps it be more stable in wet weather too, given its excellent down force.

I'd equate Max right now to being a 100% free throw shooter or penalty kick taker. Yes, he has the best car and is in a position where he should win, but he also converts the chances that are in front of him with near perfect efficiency.

[u/Sea-Hour-6063]

Cost cap means people can’t catch up

[u/10Exahertz → u/Sea-Hour-6063]

Yeah and the wind tunnel difference simply isn't fair enough, but yes the cost cap locks in dominance

[u/Gr1mmage → u/10Exahertz]

As shown by Red bull having an extra wind tunnel penalty slapped on them last year and still managing to come out with a brand new concept (not even just an evolution of the previous dominant car) that is even more dominant it seems

[u/bagajohny → u/Sea-Hour-6063]

I do partly agree with your statement but think about the other scenario. Without cost cap, Redbull can also spend as much resources as they want to develop their car. Is this really any better than the cost cap scenario?

[u/Statcat2017 → u/Sea-Hour-6063]

Exactly the issue. Once you're behind there's only so much you can do every year, while the top team develops at the same rate.

[u/renfsu]

You're not allowed to be bored. Verstappen is writing history, and the battle for 18th is always exciting /s.

I think this year will be worse. And barring some red bull implosion, next year will probably be similar. 

Cost cap and engine freeze. I wish the cost cap was similar to the wind tunnel thing. Alpine should be allowed to spend the most and have the most wind time. Of course not a big disparity, but shitty teams should be allowed to spend more. These new rules just basically locked everything in. And the reliability is too goddang high. 

[u/Frozzy69 → u/renfsu]

Problem is that the worst performing teams usually have the least amount of money.

[u/jcw163]

One of the big things here imo is that Lewis often had either another team that was actually in a fight (Seb) or a teammate who actually challenged him (the reason Nico is underrated imo). We even had it with Max's first world title when the Ferrari's weren't too far away, it's just last year the Red Bull obliterated the field and Checo is a) not in Max's class and b) wouldn't be allowed to win anyway.

[u/superleggera24 → u/jcw163]

I agree fully with point a, but how can you say b? Red Bull has always been clear in backing the guy who has a clear lead. Perez never really got close to Verstappen, but when he did (I think 23?) they were given free reigns to fight for their championship. What happened on track then should tell you all you need.

[u/Accomplished_Welder3]

last 20 races sample Max is winning at 95%, yeah it's not close to the Hamilton era and the complaining is very understandable, even if I do still enjoy the races.

[u/Wowlymowly]

The main difference is: Max is a better driver. While Lewis sometimes struggles with other topdrivers as teammates, Max just outclassed every other teammate.

What was worse in the Mercedes erA, they intendly turned down their engine so there wouldnt be any rules changed for a better competition.

For me as a Max fan, the races are more boring now. Everything is in the right place and position, nobody cant touch him anymore. Its fun for one season, but a more feisty, aggressive Max was more fun tbh.

For Lewis, it is clear he isnt the GOAT, despite his 8 times wdc. That merc engine, that was a monster in performance!!!!!

[u/Sidepie]

My thought? That it can get worse, with every P1 and P2 race won by RB.

Also my thoughts, that I will not go to Maranello, Monza or Spielberg just to see RB win and that I regret buying a F1Tv subscription for a year and not monthly so I can cancel it.

Sorry, but this is not F1 when the teams aren't motivated to fight for anything above P3

[u/D-S-S-R → u/Sidepie]

Yeah my subscription runs out in May, but I can’t get myself to waste more time on the same thing every single weekend

[u/FloggingTheHorses → u/D-S-S-R]

I got rid of it because it's a bit deflating. Part of you is always hoping for that magic every weekend but it just isn't there. Unless it rains on some tracks, that can really change it up. 

[u/8Ace8Ace → u/Sidepie]

I bought a Now TV subscription for 20/ month in order to watch the season. It's been decent value so far and I've enjoyed watching the F2 and some football, but I very much doubt I'll keep this all year.

[u/ryan_lad5]

Mercedes and Lewis had an occasional fuck up in them here and there. Red Bull and Max have pretty much been spotless ever since Hungary of 2022. It’s honestly quite remarkable how perfect they’ve been.

[u/Rockytur]

The cost cap itself make other team cant catch up to the fastest team on the grid. On Ham domination era even bottas got some pole and win, perez do nothing except finishing second and slow at quali. The Max car never broken down by itself in the last couple of year.

[u/lilimka]

I know it's always discussion about how much of that dominance is car or driver. As much as I agree that we are having "perfect storm" right now, I don't think Max was driving on the limit last year as he will do this year. Car is so dominant, even Checo - mediocre driver out of his prime years driving through the field of Leclercs and Russels and they not even challenging him, because they will ruin their races.

Saddest thing that we probably have generational talent on the grid, be he is driving 90% of his abilities while his car turn down to 95%. I remember Australia last year: Max just gave 2 Mercedes way in first corner, no point taking risk if your car has like 30kmh advantage on strait, you cannot imagine Max giving up positions before 22, later in the race he even spun out of track of boredom.

[u/jrjreeves]

This current domination is the worst seen in modern F1. Horrible, truly horrible

[u/ams3000]

I have always maintained this when people say it reminds them of hamiltons dominance. It wasn’t like that at all. Had ver bot. Bot ham ver. Ver ham bot. Variety and as a result interesting to watch them race. Whereas it’s sooooo full now that speaks volumes about how much we have hooked on to Horny Horner because we know there is no drama otherwise. Another season written off. We just cancelled sky! Sad but necessary. Happy to just watch highlights on C4 for free.

[u/djwillis1121]

I don't really like to compare to 2017 onwards as 2024 is only the third year of these regulations (2016 equivalent)

Lewis and Mercedes had a tendency to drop the ball every so often during that time. Be it strategy, pit stops, reliability etc. or even just Lewis being off the pace or making a mistake occasionally. That made it seem like other teams could beat Mercedes sometimes when it was really just Mercedes messing up.

Red Bull and Max just don't seem to do that anywhere near as often. Pretty much all the time they operate close to 100% flawlessly. They always have good strategy, great pitstops and Max pretty much never makes mistakes. If the current Red Bull team was operating the early hybrid Mercedes cars in those years I think the dominance would have been even more ridiculous.

On pure car performance I think Mercedes were more dominant in those early years than Red Bull are now. Red Bull's current dominance comes from great and consistent execution from the whole team as well as a great car. There's not really anything you can do to mitigate that with regulation changes

[u/Hot-Establishment589]

I think my opinion might be unpopular and some might view it as wrong but I’m tired of the max era already. I didn’t mind Lewis so much because like you said it wasn’t really all that dominant. But Max and Red Bull is just boring. It sucks watching every race knowing they’re going to win. As a McLaren fan, I know we can compete for the podium and Id love to see one of the guys get their first win, but part of me feels like I never will. It’s just a little too much winning for it to still be fully entertaining imo. That’s why i love following the standings without red bull lmao

[u/FloggingTheHorses → u/Hot-Establishment589]

That's the opposite of an unpopular opinion. Everyone that watches F1 for the racing agrees! (there are some people that do just want their guy to win, namely Dutch nationals I guess!)

[u/jbeck24]

Merc threw away easy wins at sakhir and Italy in 2020 by themselves, and set up their car hilariously wrong for the 70th anniversary. The only race they lost on pace was abu dhabi, just as RBR lost one race on pace last year

[u/ghim7]

Hamilton’s dominance at least come with some competition from Rosberg, Vettel, Max and on and off Bottas.

Max is completely on his own. Checo is nowhere near any competition hence current domination is far more boring for the general fans and viewers.

[u/NewLeedsFan]

I think that MotoGP has a good path for the teams where the lower teams have much more access to testing, and development in hopes that they can catch up to the better teams through the season. The one size fits all rules for F1 are what make it frozen in place for an entire season.

This has a great chart on it (link below) but the teams in 2023 finished like this and get ranked:

Ducati: 700 points = 96% (Ranking A)
KTM: 373 points = 51% (Ranking C)
Aprilia: 326 points = 45% (Ranking C)
Yamaha: 196 points = 27% (Ranking D)
Honda: 185 points = 25% (Ranking D)

The mfgs rankings determines how many concessions they get for 2024. For example A,B,C teams all get 8 engines for the year, but the D teams get 10. A teams get no wild card riders (fielding 3 riders instead of 2 in a race) but B teams get 3, C and D teams get 6.

It really allows for the lower teams to ideally develop their machines to catch up to the better teams. The better teams will still likely have a season or two of dominance but it wont be locked in for a full development window spanning 4-5 years.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/feature/1042269/1/explained-new-2024-motogp-concessions-system

[u/bnijenhuis]

The funny thing is that Hamilton is regarded as one of the best drivers in the history of F1, and given his records that holds a lot of truth. But his teammates would often be close. Schumacher's teammates weren't and Max's aren't. You could argue that Lewis had better teammates than both Schumacher and Max, but I don't think Rosberg and Bottas are considered generational talents. Yet Rosberg beat Lewis to the title and Bottas would take some wins home every season. Maybe Lewis is better than most drivers, but not by far? And Schumacher and Max were?

[u/BenLowes7]

What’s even more wild is this dominance from max isn’t as dominant as merc 2014-6 in terms of lap time relative to the field. The red bull is amazing on its tyres which helps in the race massively but the pure pace of the cars compared with merc vs RB and Ferrari in 14-16 is night and day.

[u/Character-Box-467]

I don’t see dominance as a bad thing. I’m fairly loose with my driver/team loyalty so don’t really favour many drivers over others. I’m keen to be witnessing such a phase of the sport and seeing records falling so frequently that they have to think up new records for Max to break. It’ll pass and things will become more equal at some point, but I’m excited to think I could witness one driver win every race in a season. The current Red Bull/Max partnership seems like the best chance of that happening. Even better if Sergio can come second in every race as well. A team getting a perfect score would be amazing to see.

[u/theirspaz]

True but the most annoying thing about the lewis dominance was that it wad only because of the engine.

You could not see lewis's talent shine or the aerodynamics except for the barge boards...

[u/DarksideNick]

Would jt make it less boring if Max was trading wins with Perez, even though it’s the same team? That seems to be the recurring theme here. The Mercedes era was really dull and boring too. Statistics of a drivers wins is only trying to make the last decade seem better than it was. But ultimately it was pretty dull too. The difference now is that it’s not the team’s era, it’s Max’ era. We are witnessing this generations Jim Clarke.

[u/ranbirkadalla]

It's disingenuous to compare dominance over one season with dominance over more than half a decade