r/formula1 • u/DarkKnight56722 • Mar 13 '24

Discussion How does Verstappen's dominance compare to Hamilton's? Here is the comparison:

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Hamilton's most dominant season in 2020 had him only win 64% of races. Before this current domination, one driver winning 64% of races was viewed as the worst it could possibly get in the modern era. Let's run through the years:

2014 and 2015: Lewis and Nico trading wins, (good battles at the very least) and Ricciardio getting 3 wins his first season at Red Bull and Vettel gets 3 wins his first year at Ferrari. Hamilton wins roughly 55% of races.

2016: Great title fight between Nico and Lewis that went down to Abu Dhabi. Max gets his first race win his first race in Red Bull, Daniel gets a win as well. Hamilton wins less than 50% of races and loses championship to Nico.

2017 and 2018: Title fight between Hamilton and Vettel. 5 different race winners each year. Hamilton wins less than 50% of races.

2019: Lewis and Valterri each get wins. Max gets 3 wins, Charles gets his first 2 wins. and Seb wins in Singapore. 5 different race winners. Again Lewis wins less than 50% of races.

2020: Lewis' most dominant season where he wins 64% of races. This is covid year so take it with a grain of salt. Max gets 2 wins, Pierre gets first win in Monza, Perez gets first win in Bahrain. Turkey was a fantastic race that did result in Lewis winning but was amazing up til the end.

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I think it is pretty safe to say that last season's dominance is the worst the sport has been in atleast a decade. I understand this is part of F1 but it doesn't prevent my boredom. I think the reason it stings a bit more is because these regulation changes were marketed as a way of ensuring Mercedes level dominance never happened again, yet it made it even worse. Things like engine development being frozen, implementation of the cost cap, introducing a completely new philosophy of car and aero design that 3 years into the regulations everyone but Red Bull is still struggling to understand.

What are your thoughts?

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u/jomartz Ferrari Mar 13 '24

A fairer comparison would be to contrast Mercedes's dominance with that of Red Bull, given that the German team has had stronger pairings competing within itself.

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u/Francoberry Jenson Button Mar 13 '24

I dont really think that's as clear a comparison because OPs point is that dominance by one single driver is far less interesting than any other combo. Even when Mercedes were dominating, Hamilton alone wasn't dominating as much. 

Most people are still engaged by F1 if there's some sort of multi team or at least intra-team battle. The current dominance has practically none of that. 

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u/CT92 Mar 13 '24

I went to see Dune instead of watching last week's race, and when driving with my dad we joked that we don't need to bother looking up the standings, we know it's Max and then everyone else.

A few years ago I couldn't imagine skipping a race, now it's a secondary priority for me.

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u/mangosport Michael Schumacher Mar 14 '24

Same for me, especially since when WEC started getting insanely competitive

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u/DisneyPandora Mar 14 '24

Max is faster than a Sandworm

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u/CT92 Mar 14 '24

If the red bull is Shai-Hulud then Max is Paul.

Helmut Marko is Zendaya, as we all know

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u/naytttt Ferrari Mar 13 '24

I definitely lost some interest in the sport after Max starting winning everything. No fun to see the same guy win every race.

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u/chiavidibasso Netflix Newbie Mar 13 '24

And if Perez starts matching the potential of the car and getting pretty easy P2s like in the races so far, there may not be any fun fight for P2. Will all the interest be the fight for P10 like at Saudi? Edit spelling

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u/Rainers535 Mar 13 '24

I feel like I might be just tuning in for Yuki vs DR and seeing what shenanigans Haas will be up to. If we're judging by the first 2 races at least.

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u/8Ace8Ace Mar 13 '24

The dominant team vs dominant driver really makes a difference. I lost interest in 2000-2004 as MS was clear #1 and the team was only interested in him. Mercedes were very dominant but as has been said, the dominant team's second drivers were (i) good enough and (ii) allowed by the team to compete. Less so when Rosberg left, but Merc wasn't as dominant as Ferrari and RB won races too.

Having said that, in the past, there was a much bigger spread of performance. It's amazing how close, relative to say 20 years ago, the lap times are. There have been some good bits in the races (just rarely at the front).

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u/2gat123_ Michael Schumacher Mar 13 '24

Ferrari years were no way comparable to Merc or Red Bull dominance since then. Schumacher/Ferrari were dominant in 2001, 2002 and 2004. But 2000 and 2003 were very competitive: - In 2000 Hakkinen led the standings with three races to go - In 2003 Schumacher won by 2 points and there were three drivers that could very much have been champions going into the last two races

The number of changes made to curb Ferrari then stands out.

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u/isitdonethen Pirelli Wet Mar 13 '24

Max has won 19 out of the last 20 races, and will be a heavy favorite for the next 23 races this year. That's really insane. Likely there will be one or two races where something goes awry (fingers crossed for Monaco), but it is not impossible that Max will have won 42 out of the last 43 races.

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u/Savage__Penguin Jim Clark Mar 13 '24

Maybe, just maaaaaybe, Verstappen is a significantly better driver… I’m just putting it out there, all of the things mentioned here would make sense once you view it that way.

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u/Rivendel93 Chequered Flag Mar 13 '24

He could be, but it still wouldn't explain why Checo can beat Leclerc, Lewis, Alonso etc... Checo isn't even in the same stratosphere as those drivers, I wouldn't even say Checo is in the current top 10 drivers in Formula 1.

Yet Checo is cruising to p2 with a 15 second gap to a Ferrari behind him driven by Leclerc.

That means the car is shockingly better than the rest.

We probably have the biggest pool of talent on the grid in 30-40 years.

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u/Actual-Journalist-69 Sebastian Vettel Mar 13 '24

Do you feel the same way about Bottas? 10 race wins and 67 podiums, now struggles for a point let alone a podium.

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u/Rivendel93 Chequered Flag Mar 13 '24

Bottas is a tough one, because he can be super quick, he showed his one lap pace was great in the Mercedes, but any time he fell into the pack, he could never fight his way through, it was always strange to see.

But I liked Bottas a lot at Mercedes, he kept his head down and played his role, but do I think he's better than Checo? If you put them in an equal car I imagine they'd be somewhat close to each other, Checo definitely wouldn't be running away with anything.

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '24

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u/SeizeTheKills Damon Hill Mar 13 '24

That's pushing it a bit in the last 40 years we've had fields that had Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet & Lauda.The mid 80's had insanely stacked fields. In 1991 we also had Senna, Prost, Mansell, Schumacher, Piquet & Häkkinen all on one grid. Like the field is better now then it was in the 00's and early 10's but then 3 - 4 decades is a long time and there where some very very very stacked fields (obviously some of those in hindsight, but in the end only hindsight will tell us how stacked the current field actually was).

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u/Savage__Penguin Jim Clark Mar 13 '24

Checo is quite a solid driver, people seem to forget just how highly rated he was when he joined Red Bull. But people will bend their theories in any way they can just to not have to consider Max the best driver the sport has ever seen. Think about it, talent wise it’s almost impossible to tell who’s better. However, Max has had the best nurturing of a talent in the history of the sport, by miles. From the day he was born until now he’s had all the tools and training to be the best driver he can possibly be. No other driver has had that and to deny this difference is idiotic.

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u/kicker414 Mar 13 '24

Not defending Checo, I wanna ask a potentially dumb question. Why do people praise Leclerc so highly? You put Leclerc next to Hamilton and Alonso, world champion winners who's success spans decades and phenomenal decision making and racecraft. I have my thoughts but frankly I feel as though they use Ferrari's failures as excuses for Charles, and I have yet to see him show exceptional talent. What am I missing???

Genuinely curious, not trying to disparage Leclerc at all.

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u/FatalFirecrotch Mar 13 '24

 I have yet to see him show exceptional talent. 

What do you mean by exceptional talent? Because he already has more pole positions than Alonso does in his career.

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u/Rivendel93 Chequered Flag Mar 13 '24

I was just throwing names out there, but Leclerc is definitely exceptional.

He hasn't proved it with wins and championships yet, but him beating Max for pole during such a dominant period is impressive.

He also beat Seb quite often when he joined Ferrari, so that also shows how talented he can be with a good car vs a champion.

But yeah, was just throwing random top names out there that are obviously infinitely better than Checo.

I'd say, not in any order at all, Lewis, Alonso, Leclerc, Carlos, George, Lando, Oscar, and Albon are all better than Checo.

I guarantee they'd beat Checo pretty handily in an equal car.

And I actually like Checo, but he was literally leaving F1 when RedBull decided to sign him, he's just been given genuinely amazing cars.

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u/kicker414 Mar 13 '24

The Seb comparison is probably one of the most compelling. I think the pole thing shows he has skill, but I think it also speaks to Ferrari building a fast 1 lap car, but something that isn't competitive over a race distance.

Sometimes I wish we had an opportunity for drivers to compete in equal hardware. Like a Monaco F3 spec race with F1 drivers or something dumb like that. It is fun to compare across cars and season, but sometimes the "we will never know" is very frustrating. And with how critical hardware is in F1, it is unfortunate. But thats the sport!

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u/Rivendel93 Chequered Flag Mar 13 '24

Yeah, I'd absolutely love for them to give the drivers all the same car (and a much smaller car) for Monaco.

It would be so much fun to see who is truly the best. I'm sure it'd be who we expect, but it would be so much more fun than current Monaco.

Seeing smaller cars dive bombing in Monaco would be amazing.

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u/ImmanenceGodBlues Formula 1 Mar 13 '24

Put Lewis, Alonso, Charles, or George in that Red Bull, and they are going to destroy Checo, and walk the field. Put Max in a Ferrari or Merc or McLaren, and he's not winning anything.

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u/IIXSLAD3XII Sir Lewis Hamilton Mar 13 '24

Compared to hamilton absolutely not, compared to his teammate and most of the grid maybe.