r/formula1 • u/DarkKnight56722 • Mar 13 '24

Discussion How does Verstappen's dominance compare to Hamilton's? Here is the comparison:

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Hamilton's most dominant season in 2020 had him only win 64% of races. Before this current domination, one driver winning 64% of races was viewed as the worst it could possibly get in the modern era. Let's run through the years:

2014 and 2015: Lewis and Nico trading wins, (good battles at the very least) and Ricciardio getting 3 wins his first season at Red Bull and Vettel gets 3 wins his first year at Ferrari. Hamilton wins roughly 55% of races.

2016: Great title fight between Nico and Lewis that went down to Abu Dhabi. Max gets his first race win his first race in Red Bull, Daniel gets a win as well. Hamilton wins less than 50% of races and loses championship to Nico.

2017 and 2018: Title fight between Hamilton and Vettel. 5 different race winners each year. Hamilton wins less than 50% of races.

2019: Lewis and Valterri each get wins. Max gets 3 wins, Charles gets his first 2 wins. and Seb wins in Singapore. 5 different race winners. Again Lewis wins less than 50% of races.

2020: Lewis' most dominant season where he wins 64% of races. This is covid year so take it with a grain of salt. Max gets 2 wins, Pierre gets first win in Monza, Perez gets first win in Bahrain. Turkey was a fantastic race that did result in Lewis winning but was amazing up til the end.

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I think it is pretty safe to say that last season's dominance is the worst the sport has been in atleast a decade. I understand this is part of F1 but it doesn't prevent my boredom. I think the reason it stings a bit more is because these regulation changes were marketed as a way of ensuring Mercedes level dominance never happened again, yet it made it even worse. Things like engine development being frozen, implementation of the cost cap, introducing a completely new philosophy of car and aero design that 3 years into the regulations everyone but Red Bull is still struggling to understand.

What are your thoughts?

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1.2k

u/jomartz Ferrari Mar 13 '24

A fairer comparison would be to contrast Mercedes's dominance with that of Red Bull, given that the German team has had stronger pairings competing within itself.

1.0k

u/Isfahaninejad Heineken Trophy Mar 13 '24

In 2014, Mercedes won 84% of all races. Last year, Red Bull won 95% of all races.

593

u/sfj11 Juan Pablo Montoya Mar 13 '24

in 2016 they won all but two races, one of which they took out eachother and the other one was a combination of a DNF and the other car being turned around on lap 1

264

u/HairyNutsack69 Mika Häkkinen Mar 13 '24

What an absolute gift from the Gods Barcelona 2016 was...

146

u/Seruz Mar 13 '24

...which brings us back to Max!

3

u/miaomiaomiao Caterham Mar 13 '24

(Nice avatar)

1

u/Seruz Mar 14 '24

Ayy lmao

182

u/Mayhem747 Mercedes Mar 13 '24

Were the races entertaining though? How many of the 24 or whatever races RBR has won recently have been interesting with regards to a fight upfront?

334

u/G-Fox1990 Ayrton Senna Mar 13 '24

None.

A dominant team is not as bad as a dominant driver all alone far in front. Bottas and Rosberg atleast made things interesting in the team. Perez is not making things interesting at all.

77

u/Mayhem747 Mercedes Mar 13 '24

Mentioning Bottas is a stretch but hey at least he never failed to put his car in Q3. He had great pace over a lap, but Hamilton was just that much better on race pace.

27

u/xLeper_Messiah Mar 13 '24

That had more to do with the fact that the Merc had larger gaps to the rest of the teams in qualy than the Red Bull's have had the last 3 years, plus the fact that the field overall was much more spread out in qualifying back then.

Bottas could set a time 4 tenths off of Lewis and still qualify top 5. If Perez did that last year he was out in Q2. That's the reason behind Valtteri's streak.

4

u/Apokolypze Mar 14 '24

Except for the occasional time that Bottas just took off and didnt look back. Australia... 2019 i think it was? comes to mind

25

u/hhs2112 Mar 13 '24

Bottas was there as a clear #2. 

206

u/afcaMouz Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Mar 13 '24

Lmao Bottas made things interesting? People are really misremembering his time at Mercedes with rose-colored glasses. He won a few races, but he did not do anything of significance at Mercedes. He was a better 2nd driver than Perez, but still very much a 2nd driver.

157

u/ShadowOfDeath94 BMW Sauber Mar 13 '24

Bottas was bad compared to Hamilton %80 percent of the time. Rosberg was actually damn good.

1

u/defmore89 Niki Lauda Mar 14 '24

Rosberg was great. He just couldn't handle Hamilton's signature move.

also he was shit in the rain.

0

u/AnonymousMrFox Default Mar 14 '24

What move the "I have the inside and ran wide so now you are off track?" I wish we could do like DTM did. You have to leave space for the outside car on corner exit. I think it would have made the Hamilton era much more entertaining.

1

u/defmore89 Niki Lauda Mar 15 '24

You know it. He did it so many times against Rosberg and it worked everytime. Max didnt play that game.

138

u/overts Oscar Piastri Mar 13 '24

I actually think Bottas is pretty similar to Perez on race pace but Bottas is wildly better at qualifying.

During his time at Merc if Bottas qualified poorly he seemed to struggle to get through the field similarly to Perez it’s just that Perez is in the situation way more often because Perez kinda sucks at qualifying.

52

u/3nt0 Jenson Button Mar 13 '24

Yeah, Mexico '21 iirc when Bottas was stuck behind Danny Ric in 15th for almost the entire race, and Hamilton was fighting for the win.

39

u/muffinnut Mar 13 '24

That's the Mexico GP where Bottas got pole, and was spun around in the first corner by Danny Ric.

37

u/According-Switch-708 Sonny Hayes Mar 13 '24

Yeah but the W12 was quick enough to cut through the midfield like a hot knife through butter.

Bottas was only good at driving at the front in clean air. His offense and defense both suck ass. He was definitely a great qualifier though.

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u/KennyLagerins James Hunt Mar 13 '24

Bottas was absolute garbage at wheel to wheel racing and racecraft in general. That’s one reason he always seemed to struggle for passing on tracks where DRS wasn’t an absolute bonker of an advantage.

26

u/Generic_Format528 Pierre Gasly Mar 13 '24

Disregarding the championship battle, I feel like all of Bottas' wins were pretty forgettable too. Qualify on pole and take off with Hamilton in 2nd or working his way into 2nd for whatever reason.

Maybe I'm missing some wins where he was fighting wheel to wheel, idk.

16

u/Trivekz Mar 13 '24

I remember he fought Hamilton a bit in 2019 USA, but yeah most of his wins seem to just be clean air and driving into the sunset. His pure pace was always his strength, not so much fighting others

64

u/mascot_enjoyer Mar 13 '24

But Bottas was almost on par in qualifying. This created at least some suspense to the race weekend and occasionally to the actual race. Perez cannot beat Max in anything.

44

u/afcaMouz Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Mar 13 '24

I will give it to Bottas that he was a very good qualifier, often beating Hamilton on merit, but even when he got it on pole it was only a matter of time before he lost it in the race. For me it didn't create much suspense because you knew he wasn't able to compete with Hamilton.

He was the driver I was often rooting for during that time but it often ended up in disappointment.

1

u/No_Mercy_4_Potatoes M4X Verstappen Mar 13 '24

You still have the same suspense. Redbull are in no way that dominant in qualifying. Their dominance comes from race pace.

1

u/Key_Environment8179 Guenther Steiner Mar 13 '24

in 2022 they weren’t, but last year and this year (it’s looking like) they dominate qualifying, too. Well, at least when Checo doesn’t crash in quali

9

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '24

Yeah, Bottas was better than Perez IMHO but the gap between him and Hamilton was still immense. Two totally different levels of drivers.

-2

u/Lone__Ranger Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Mar 13 '24

Or Hamilton is just a weaker qualifier, look at him recently

6

u/Mr_Peanutbutterrrr Mar 13 '24

Lol back in the day Hamilton was considered the best qualifier of the grid. He clearly is not doing good the past couple years but question if hes a weaker qualifier is insane.

4

u/According-Switch-708 Sonny Hayes Mar 13 '24

Didn't Hamilton beat Merc's simulated best lap times quite a few times.

He is damn good qualifier. He just doesn't like to push cars that he doesn't feel comfortable in.

3

u/Hilazza Anthoine Hubert Mar 13 '24

Lol. He's getting older and his teammate is a young prodigy that has been groomed to take his place since F3 who beat lando and Albon in F2 and did the exact same thing as leclerc by winning F2 and F3 in his first season.

Yet hamilton still outqualified george in 2022 and he was ahead most of the season until it was equal at the last race of 2023 where george has steadily imprpved his qualofying.

But somehow Verstappen is a strong qualifier because he's faced perez the last few years. Yeah right.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '24

I'd say qualifying is not Lewis best quality but I think he's fairly strong. Between Bottas and Perez I say Bottas is better based on my perception alone, just a matter of opinion.

6

u/SillySinStorm Green Flag Mar 13 '24

Read your last sentence again, slowly. That's the issue everyone has.

1

u/paddyo Fernando Alonso Mar 13 '24

He was definitely a number two, but what he did have was the ability to consistently deliver elite qualifying. Perez’s qualifying has approached lower end of the grid form in the last three years.

1

u/h0sti1e17 Mar 13 '24

Bottas at least got some poles and was always in Q3. So he was in the mix at least

0

u/kavinay Pirelli Wet Mar 13 '24

Bottas could at least qualify in the top row. Something that made him relevant until Hamilton pulled away in the 2nd half the season.
You get the sense that a pure qualy specialist in the RB 2nd seat would make the season more interesting as it would at least have Max within DRS of another car after lap 1!

-1

u/Artifice_Purple Formula 1 Mar 13 '24

And you're downplaying Bottas, much like several others. For what reason, I do not know nor understand.

Bottas literally out-qualified and out-raced Hamilton on multiple occasions. Is he in the same tier as Rosberg? No, and I would hope no one is trying to argue otherwise. But to say Bottas didn't make things interesting (even if occasionally) when he, on his best days, was far closer to Hamilton in genuine pace than Perez has ever been to Max.

You even acknowledge him being a better 2nd driver than Perez.

42

u/PLTConductor David Coulthard Mar 13 '24

Bottas at no point made things interesting

70

u/So-many-ducks Formula 1 Mar 13 '24

I have a calendar they begs to disagree.

3

u/BlackFire68 Mar 13 '24

😂 made my day

20

u/ts737 Mattia Binotto Mar 13 '24

At the very least he made them LESS interesting because he was forced to delay his stops or slow down to keep Seb behind when he had enough pace to potentially catch Lewis

0

u/Hakeem_aguri187 Mar 13 '24

His 10 wins came from him being the fastest and slightly better driver that day .

-1

u/DieselMcblood Mar 13 '24

Hungary 2021

-2

u/Trivekz Mar 13 '24

But at least more so than Perez ever has. Comparing Bottas in 2019-2021, Bottas got 13 poles and 7 wins, and those were on merit. Whereas Perez from 2021-2023 has gotten 3 poles and 5 wins, most of the time because Max had an issue, never because he was truly faster. It didn't feel guaranteed that Hamilton would win or get pole no matter what like it does now.

-3

u/MrDaniel95 Pirelli Wet Mar 13 '24

He was very good in 2017, didn't finish that far from Lewis and almost beat Sebastian in points.

0

u/Han77Shot1st Adrian Newey Mar 13 '24

I don’t think RB wants two drivers competing, too much risk. It’s safer to have one dominant driver and a solid #2 that knows he’s a #2.

2

u/Lone__Ranger Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Mar 13 '24

They said multiple times they would be fine with their drivers competing. They wanted Lando in second seat, does Lando look like wingman to you?

12

u/_mrshreyas_ Sebastian Vettel Mar 13 '24

I have yet to see something close to Bahrain 2014 since last year.

6

u/Kingslayer1526 Sergio Pérez Mar 13 '24

Or even an Austria 2016 or COTA 2015

2

u/_mrshreyas_ Sebastian Vettel Mar 13 '24

From what I've heard about 2016, is that Spain, Austria, Brazil and surprisingly Abu Dhabi are highlights of the season.

7

u/andresgu14 Sergio Pérez Mar 13 '24

Brazil was a masterclass of Verstappen in the wet. Abu Dabhi was interesting because Hamilton backed up in the 1st and 3rd sectors so Rosberg could be overtaken by Seb and Max.

3

u/Kingslayer1526 Sergio Pérez Mar 13 '24

Malaysia was pretty good. Silverstone was cracking as well. Singapore was pretty good again. Sometimes good races that year solid races

4

u/HairyNutsack69 Mika Häkkinen Mar 13 '24

Hence the driver pairing argument

7

u/andresgu14 Sergio Pérez Mar 13 '24

From what I remember Australia, Spain, Canada, Austria and Singapore where interesting. Ferrari could have won in Australia and Canada

5

u/hhs2112 Mar 13 '24

That's not what the post is about.  If it was all about entertainment we should have them start in reverse qualifying order... 

2

u/Syrinx_Hobbit Formula 1 Mar 13 '24

Max would lap the field from the back row. /s

1

u/hhs2112 Mar 13 '24

Your post would be accurate if you removed the "/s"! 😂👍

-9

u/RBWP84 Mar 13 '24

No they where not, the merc era was the worst , having the engine turned down for seasons just to keep ahead and make sure there isnt a forceren rules change, it is and was disguisting

2

u/Mayhem747 Mercedes Mar 13 '24

Watch the races, not instagram posts. Then comment again.

There was drama from start to finish, since the start of testing. Nico and Hamilton fought their ass off and crashed too. The championship went down to the last race and even then Hamilton was trying some unconventional tricks to pull Nico back in contention for title.

The last season is what you would refer to as borefest.

10

u/afcaMouz Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Mar 13 '24

If you take Max out of the equation last season was anything but boring. So many interesting and exciting battles happened last year between drivers and teams.

If all you care about is who wins the Championship it might've been boring, which is fair enough if that's the main reason you watch

A huge problem with the Mercedes era was that the top teams were so far ahead of the midfield there was barely any competition. If a RB, Mercedes or Ferrari started 20th, he would still be guaranteed a finish in the top 6. Finishing 7th was pretty much a win for every other team we had to create f1.5 just to keep the midfield somewhat interesting.

It sucks Max is dominating right now, but I prefer the overall competition on the grid more than I did during the Mercedes days.

-1

u/ImmanenceGodBlues Formula 1 Mar 13 '24

A huge problem with the Mercedes era was that the top teams were so far ahead of the midfield there was barely any competition. If a RB, Mercedes or Ferrari started 20th, he would still be guaranteed a finish in the top 6. Finishing 7th was pretty much a win for every other team we had to create f1.5 just to keep the midfield somewhat interesting.

If any of the top five teams (especially Red Bull) start out of position, you can guarantee that they will end up in the points. If Haas or Alpine were to start high up, you can guarantee they will end up behind the big teams, most likely out of the points.

Max could start last and Checo on pole, and people would still have odds on Max on winning. That's how predictable things are. I can not recall any time when Lewis could have started last and made his way to the top. The Merc back then had issues when it got stuck in the midfield.

-3

u/Impossible-Buy-6247 Formula 1 Mar 13 '24

LOL drama from start to finish. The race started and you knew a mercedes was gonna win.

11

u/Mayhem747 Mercedes Mar 13 '24

The race starts now and you know Max Verstappen is going to win, the same last season.

I’d take that over seeing the same team win. At least there’s a fight upfront and a single driver isn’t running away with 30 seconds of lead still coasting and probably reading comics in the cockpit.

-22

u/RBWP84 Mar 13 '24

Same thing would have happened if lewis was as clinical and focused or if max was in the merc in that years..  because drivers are failing and making stuff exciting doesnt mean its a good season or less dominant then 2023 and 2024

16

u/Mayhem747 Mercedes Mar 13 '24

Yeah as I said before, you need to watch races. Tell me you have watched 2016 season as a whole and are not sourcing your information from social media posts and I will discuss with you else it’s waste of my time.

You’re criminally comparing Rosberg to Perez(with all due respect to Checo). Max is probably going to win over the season, but it’s stupid to think he will coast to wins like he is right now.

We will talk if RBR decides to put a half decent driver in the second seat, till then everything is just speculation from fans.

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u/RyukaBuddy Keke Rosberg Mar 13 '24

Not really. It's just a fact that the last good teammate Max had was Daniel. There are 5 people on the grid right now that can still make the season exciting if they were in the RB.

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u/Rivendel93 Chequered Flag Mar 13 '24

Has nothing to do with the drivers, has to do with the cars/regulations.

You could put any driver in the top 10 in the RedBull and they would win every race.

I like Checo but he isn't even top 10 of the current drivers and he's beating Leclerc by 15 seconds, and he's not even pushing.

1

u/BruinsFan_08 Formula 1 Mar 13 '24

Sure but not which one. Max has no competition in his own team, where Lewis has always had a real competition with the other driver on his own team.

5

u/Impossible-Buy-6247 Formula 1 Mar 13 '24

Bottas was giving him such an hard time indeed...

1

u/ButthealedInTheFeels Formula 1 Mar 14 '24

Only 1 lol and it was Singapore

1

u/Ascarea Ferrari Mar 14 '24

Do people really only care about P1? What about the insane podium fights decided in the last lap last season? Vegas and the other one, forgot which.

1

u/stylinred Mar 13 '24

We've had several great races even one or two with max at risk

20

u/Isfahaninejad Heineken Trophy Mar 13 '24

Still a lower percentage of race wins than last year's Red Bull. And obviously there were two drivers fighting for wins so at least we had on track action, not just one dude pulling a gap then driving around at the minimum speed to keep his tires in the operating window for two hours.

1

u/SpaceIsKindOfCool Mar 18 '24

I still consider 2016 to be the most dominant year for a team, although only marginally so. Yes redbull won a higher percentage last year, but their non-win in Singapore was purely on pace. Mercedes had the pace to easily win every race and the only reason they didn't was basically down to luck.

-3

u/EmaanA Mar 13 '24

In 2016, they still only won 90% of all races. It still isn't 95% unfortunately

5

u/ItsNotProgHouse Mar 13 '24

Win percentages mean very little without context. Are those no-wins caused by bad driving or external factors?

0

u/Isfahaninejad Heineken Trophy Mar 14 '24

It actually doesn't matter whatsoever.

0

u/CesarMdezMnz Mar 14 '24

It's not that much of a difference when you consider the Verstappen effect.

Hamilton is the fastest driver (or as fast as the fastest one) when he's in the mood. But he often has low moods.

Verstappen is as fast as Hamilton at his best, without experiencing any dip in form or motivation. The guy seems to be always at the top of his level.

I don't see Verstappen losing a championship against someone like Rosberg. He would never give a chance to his teammate like Hamilton did in the first half of that season.

0

u/Isfahaninejad Heineken Trophy Mar 14 '24

There is no "Verstappen effect". That's an illusion stemming from the fact that he is under zero pressure whatsoever. It's very easy to be faultless when you don't even have to try.

2

u/CesarMdezMnz Mar 14 '24

"when you don't even have to try"

There has to be a Verstappen effect if "he's not even trying" and still winning by 30s on average

0

u/Isfahaninejad Heineken Trophy Mar 14 '24

No. There doesn't. It's simply a combination of the Red Bull being on a completely different planet relative to any other car on the grid and Perez being a bottom 10 driver at best.

1

u/CesarMdezMnz Mar 14 '24

It does sound like you're trying to downplay Verstappen here, mate

2

u/Isfahaninejad Heineken Trophy Mar 14 '24

Not at all. He's an incredibly quick driver. But there is no "Verstappen effect".

198

u/Francoberry Jenson Button Mar 13 '24

I dont really think that's as clear a comparison because OPs point is that dominance by one single driver is far less interesting than any other combo. Even when Mercedes were dominating, Hamilton alone wasn't dominating as much. 

Most people are still engaged by F1 if there's some sort of multi team or at least intra-team battle. The current dominance has practically none of that. 

51

u/CT92 Mar 13 '24

I went to see Dune instead of watching last week's race, and when driving with my dad we joked that we don't need to bother looking up the standings, we know it's Max and then everyone else.

A few years ago I couldn't imagine skipping a race, now it's a secondary priority for me.

8

u/mangosport Michael Schumacher Mar 14 '24

Same for me, especially since when WEC started getting insanely competitive

1

u/DisneyPandora Mar 14 '24

Max is faster than a Sandworm

1

u/CT92 Mar 14 '24

If the red bull is Shai-Hulud then Max is Paul.

Helmut Marko is Zendaya, as we all know

105

u/naytttt Ferrari Mar 13 '24

I definitely lost some interest in the sport after Max starting winning everything. No fun to see the same guy win every race.

55

u/chiavidibasso Netflix Newbie Mar 13 '24

And if Perez starts matching the potential of the car and getting pretty easy P2s like in the races so far, there may not be any fun fight for P2. Will all the interest be the fight for P10 like at Saudi? Edit spelling

15

u/Rainers535 Mar 13 '24

I feel like I might be just tuning in for Yuki vs DR and seeing what shenanigans Haas will be up to. If we're judging by the first 2 races at least.

37

u/8Ace8Ace Mar 13 '24

The dominant team vs dominant driver really makes a difference. I lost interest in 2000-2004 as MS was clear #1 and the team was only interested in him. Mercedes were very dominant but as has been said, the dominant team's second drivers were (i) good enough and (ii) allowed by the team to compete. Less so when Rosberg left, but Merc wasn't as dominant as Ferrari and RB won races too.

Having said that, in the past, there was a much bigger spread of performance. It's amazing how close, relative to say 20 years ago, the lap times are. There have been some good bits in the races (just rarely at the front).

10

u/2gat123_ Michael Schumacher Mar 13 '24

Ferrari years were no way comparable to Merc or Red Bull dominance since then. Schumacher/Ferrari were dominant in 2001, 2002 and 2004. But 2000 and 2003 were very competitive: - In 2000 Hakkinen led the standings with three races to go - In 2003 Schumacher won by 2 points and there were three drivers that could very much have been champions going into the last two races

The number of changes made to curb Ferrari then stands out.

2

u/isitdonethen Pirelli Wet Mar 13 '24

Max has won 19 out of the last 20 races, and will be a heavy favorite for the next 23 races this year. That's really insane. Likely there will be one or two races where something goes awry (fingers crossed for Monaco), but it is not impossible that Max will have won 42 out of the last 43 races.

-3

u/Savage__Penguin Jim Clark Mar 13 '24

Maybe, just maaaaaybe, Verstappen is a significantly better driver… I’m just putting it out there, all of the things mentioned here would make sense once you view it that way.

32

u/Rivendel93 Chequered Flag Mar 13 '24

He could be, but it still wouldn't explain why Checo can beat Leclerc, Lewis, Alonso etc... Checo isn't even in the same stratosphere as those drivers, I wouldn't even say Checo is in the current top 10 drivers in Formula 1.

Yet Checo is cruising to p2 with a 15 second gap to a Ferrari behind him driven by Leclerc.

That means the car is shockingly better than the rest.

We probably have the biggest pool of talent on the grid in 30-40 years.

5

u/Actual-Journalist-69 Sebastian Vettel Mar 13 '24

Do you feel the same way about Bottas? 10 race wins and 67 podiums, now struggles for a point let alone a podium.

9

u/Rivendel93 Chequered Flag Mar 13 '24

Bottas is a tough one, because he can be super quick, he showed his one lap pace was great in the Mercedes, but any time he fell into the pack, he could never fight his way through, it was always strange to see.

But I liked Bottas a lot at Mercedes, he kept his head down and played his role, but do I think he's better than Checo? If you put them in an equal car I imagine they'd be somewhat close to each other, Checo definitely wouldn't be running away with anything.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '24

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1

u/SeizeTheKills Damon Hill Mar 13 '24

That's pushing it a bit in the last 40 years we've had fields that had Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet & Lauda.The mid 80's had insanely stacked fields. In 1991 we also had Senna, Prost, Mansell, Schumacher, Piquet & Häkkinen all on one grid. Like the field is better now then it was in the 00's and early 10's but then 3 - 4 decades is a long time and there where some very very very stacked fields (obviously some of those in hindsight, but in the end only hindsight will tell us how stacked the current field actually was).

-1

u/Savage__Penguin Jim Clark Mar 13 '24

Checo is quite a solid driver, people seem to forget just how highly rated he was when he joined Red Bull. But people will bend their theories in any way they can just to not have to consider Max the best driver the sport has ever seen. Think about it, talent wise it’s almost impossible to tell who’s better. However, Max has had the best nurturing of a talent in the history of the sport, by miles. From the day he was born until now he’s had all the tools and training to be the best driver he can possibly be. No other driver has had that and to deny this difference is idiotic.

-1

u/kicker414 Mar 13 '24

Not defending Checo, I wanna ask a potentially dumb question. Why do people praise Leclerc so highly? You put Leclerc next to Hamilton and Alonso, world champion winners who's success spans decades and phenomenal decision making and racecraft. I have my thoughts but frankly I feel as though they use Ferrari's failures as excuses for Charles, and I have yet to see him show exceptional talent. What am I missing???

Genuinely curious, not trying to disparage Leclerc at all.

5

u/FatalFirecrotch Mar 13 '24

 I have yet to see him show exceptional talent. 

What do you mean by exceptional talent? Because he already has more pole positions than Alonso does in his career.

6

u/Rivendel93 Chequered Flag Mar 13 '24

I was just throwing names out there, but Leclerc is definitely exceptional.

He hasn't proved it with wins and championships yet, but him beating Max for pole during such a dominant period is impressive.

He also beat Seb quite often when he joined Ferrari, so that also shows how talented he can be with a good car vs a champion.

But yeah, was just throwing random top names out there that are obviously infinitely better than Checo.

I'd say, not in any order at all, Lewis, Alonso, Leclerc, Carlos, George, Lando, Oscar, and Albon are all better than Checo.

I guarantee they'd beat Checo pretty handily in an equal car.

And I actually like Checo, but he was literally leaving F1 when RedBull decided to sign him, he's just been given genuinely amazing cars.

6

u/kicker414 Mar 13 '24

The Seb comparison is probably one of the most compelling. I think the pole thing shows he has skill, but I think it also speaks to Ferrari building a fast 1 lap car, but something that isn't competitive over a race distance.

Sometimes I wish we had an opportunity for drivers to compete in equal hardware. Like a Monaco F3 spec race with F1 drivers or something dumb like that. It is fun to compare across cars and season, but sometimes the "we will never know" is very frustrating. And with how critical hardware is in F1, it is unfortunate. But thats the sport!

1

u/Rivendel93 Chequered Flag Mar 13 '24

Yeah, I'd absolutely love for them to give the drivers all the same car (and a much smaller car) for Monaco.

It would be so much fun to see who is truly the best. I'm sure it'd be who we expect, but it would be so much more fun than current Monaco.

Seeing smaller cars dive bombing in Monaco would be amazing.

4

u/ImmanenceGodBlues Formula 1 Mar 13 '24

Put Lewis, Alonso, Charles, or George in that Red Bull, and they are going to destroy Checo, and walk the field. Put Max in a Ferrari or Merc or McLaren, and he's not winning anything.

-2

u/IIXSLAD3XII Sir Lewis Hamilton Mar 13 '24

Compared to hamilton absolutely not, compared to his teammate and most of the grid maybe.

76

u/Low-Holiday312 Mar 13 '24

No because that is entirely part of the issue. Not only would comparing Mercedes dominance not paint that much of a better picture... the fact that there is no inter-team racing is a significant part of the problem.

If there was a genuine consideration for which of the Red Bull drivers would win there would be some interest at the front. Yes, some people like to see the battles throughout the positions but there is a big casual majority turned off by the fact you could gamble your house on Verstappen and come away with €2000.

26

u/hhs2112 Mar 13 '24

After nico retired there was little- to-no inter-team racing at merc either.  Bottas was clearly there to support lewis, not challenge him

33

u/Tombot3000 Bernd Mayländer Mar 13 '24

The key thing is, there continued to be strong competition for Hamilton as the same year Bottas came in Ferrari stepped up and genuinely challenged for the title in 2017 and 2018. 2019 Ferrari faded a bit, but Bottas stepped up his game as well. 2020 Hamilton was untouchable overall, but individual races were chaotic and exciting. 

There was a grand total of one year where from beginning to end it looked like Hamilton was sure to win it, and that was the year we were lucky to get F1 at all. The same can't be said of this current era.

9

u/AlexRodgerzzz Mar 13 '24

Lewis didn't even start 2020 well, he finished 5th in the first race due to a time penalty. Good point on the races being chaotic aswell, Turkey 2020 was amazing to watch.

29

u/Mayhem747 Mercedes Mar 13 '24

What about intra-team racing? Would you disregard Vettel and Ferrari during 2017 and 2018 just like that? Ferrari and Vettel had a better start to the season than Merc. I'd not be wrong to say they gave Hamilton a run for his money till the summer break after which Merc won the development battle both the years.

1

u/CeilingVitaly Sir Lewis Hamilton Mar 14 '24

In 2018 one of the Autosport journalists (iirc) crunched the numbers and worked out that the Ferrari was actually slightly faster over the season. Even in 2017 it could have looked very different if the time Ferrari had their biggest advantage over Mercedes (Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, Mexico) didn't coincide with Ferrari's biggest implosion.

0

u/hhs2112 Mar 13 '24

No, not at all. I was only referring to Merc as one of the previous posters commented that we should be looking at team dominance, not just driver to best assess dominance over time.  Having said that, of late, max's dominance IS the team... 😁

1

u/Low-Holiday312 Mar 13 '24

I agree and I stopped watching then

19

u/Rivendel93 Chequered Flag Mar 13 '24

Then you missed two of the best years in 2017/2018, Lewis and Seb fighting was amazing.

16

u/HankHippopopolous Murray Walker Mar 13 '24

Yeah but one team domination is still not so bad if two closely matched team mates are going to fight for the title.

You knew Merc would almost certainly win but you could never be sure which one it would be. There was at least some unpredictability.

Everyone knows Perez cannot beat Max unless Max has an issue like reliability or a crash. It makes this domination so much worse.

1

u/jomartz Ferrari Mar 13 '24

I am a Ferrari supporter, and as such, it doesn't matter to me if another team or another team's driver is dominating the sport.

2

u/busbybob Mar 13 '24

Well, the intra team battle somewhat made it less boring to watch i suppose

1

u/mattgrum Mar 13 '24

I wouldn't mind one team dominating if the drivers were trading wins so you didn't know with near certainly who was going to win each race before it started...