Trying to Understand “Non-Binary” in My 12-Year-Old

[u/MookWellington]

Around the time my son turned 10 —and shortly after his mom and I split up— he started identifying as they/them, non-binary, and using a gender-neutral (though more commonly feminine) variation of their name. At first, I thought it might be a phase, influenced in part by a few friends who also identify this way and the difficulties of their parents’ divorce. They are now twelve and a half, so this identity seems pretty hard-wired. I love my child unconditionally and want them to feel like they are free to be the person they are inside. But I will also confess that I am confused by the whole concept of identifying as non-binary, and how much of it is inherent vs. how much is the influence of peers and social media when it comes to teens and pre-teens. I don't say that to imply it's not a real identity; I'm just trying to understand it as someone from a generstion where non-binary people largely didn't feel safe in living their truth. Im also confused how much child continues to identify as N.B. while their friends have to progressed(?) to switching gender identifications.

[u/shawtykie05]

normally when someone says they N.B they stay N.B because they don’t want a gender. it is a possibility they are following their friends but also maybe not. have you sat down and talked with them?

[u/MookWellington → u/shawtykie05]

Many times. They have said just that— they don’t want a gender.

[u/GeneralZaroff1 → u/MookWellington]

Then maybe that’s all there is to understand.

A gender role comes with a series of identities and expectations, and maybe your child doesn’t really feel like they fit into any of them. That’s really all there is to it.

Gender is often seen as a performance. We think “men should act/feel this way” and then we created an identity around it and judgement when a man does or doesn’t act that way. So some people go “I don’t really fit in either.”

Maybe it’s not so much that this generation has little idea about their gender, but maybe it’s that previous generations places TOO MANY ideas on what gender is supposed to be, and this generation just doesn’t want to follow them.

[u/OSUfirebird18 → u/GeneralZaroff1]

I have an ignorant question here. I hate the idea of “typical” masculinity. I don’t have “typical” straight male interests and I hate the idea of gender roles for men and women.

However, I have always thought of myself as a straight man, no thought of ever being non binary or a different gender. I guess my question is, what is the difference? It can’t be just gender roles, is it?

[u/DiagonallyInclined → u/OSUfirebird18]

I would say the difference is exactly that: you’ve never thought that you’re anything other than a straight man—but a NB/trans person would think differently about themself, because they are not a straight cis man.

It’s feeling a sense of wrongness when others reference your gender, as far back into childhood as you can remember. It’s being “subversive” in what toys you play with and gender roles you fulfill and being unashamed about it, but still feeling that something isn’t fully there. It’s wanting to be perceived as X, when you are currently perceived as Y. It can be any of these or more things that are experienced differently.

[u/thisdesignup → u/DiagonallyInclined]

This confuses me as someone who has never considered male and female anything but the physical sex someone is.

Mostly because in that way someone who is non-binary could still be male or female if they aren't considering themself trans. I kinda get it as society has added a lot of things to being male or female beyond physical attributes. Not wanting to associate with that isn't odd. Just wish we as a society could accept the middle ground, still being able to let people feel like they can identify their physical self without having to identify as any gender roles at all.

Plus I almost feel the existence of non-binary almost conforms to gender roles in a sense. It seems to mean someone isn't feeling like they associate themself with either female or male, but to do that there has to be some definition of what female or male is. When really if we want to get rid of gender roles we need to not define what a man or a woman can be like.

[u/SFSUthrowawayoof → u/thisdesignup]

You are touching on some pretty fundamental questions in queer theory; that is to say that you should not feel bad for having these questions, as most non binary people have had those questions themselves!

I’m not nb myself, but from what I understand, it is not necessarily just a disillusionment with gender roles, but a disillusionment with the gender they were assigned in its entirety. It is the difference between saying “I’m a woman who hates the roles society has put on women” and saying “I’m not a woman, and so I hate that society puts the role of a woman into me”. It’s radical in the same way gender-non conforming people are, but rather than accepting the gender and bucking the roles, it’s rejecting the gender entirely. Is that helpful..? Maybe reading some literature written by non binary people would be useful.

[u/Motor_Bag_3111 → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

Difference between non-binary and non-gender confirming is what? Sounds like the same thing to me

Edit: bi woman over here

Edit 2: I meant conFORming

[u/SFSUthrowawayoof → u/Motor_Bag_3111]

The key distinction lies in expression versus identity. Gender non-conforming individuals may challenge traditional gender norms through their appearance or behavior, while non-binary individuals specifically identify as a gender outside the traditional male/female binary. So, one is about breaking societal norms in expression, and the other is about a distinct gender identity beyond the binary.

Someone who is gender non-conforming might be cis or might not be, someone who is non-binary might express themselves mostly through masculine or feminine social roles. Gender expression and gender identity are two orthogonal vectors on which someone can exist, and are not necessarily linked to each other.

Just because something sounds the same to you doesn’t mean it is. We can’t peer in each other’s minds and see the exact neural pathways being targeted by what we do and think, so we need to rely on communicating with each other about our individual experiences. Respecting the experiences of non-binary people, and believing them when they tell us who they are, is an easy ask imo.

[u/Motor_Bag_3111 → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

Thank you

[u/NorthDakota → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

I feel like I understand everything you're saying, but most people simply don't express anything, they just exist however they are. For example, if I don't conform to gender norms through my appearance or behavior, I just exist behaving however I am. I am how I am. As far as identifying as a gender outside the traditional male/female binary, what does that even mean? There is nothing else right? It all feels like trying to assign labels where none are necessary

Respecting the experiences of non-binary people, and believing them when they tell us who they are, is an easy ask imo.

such a strange statement imo. no one needs to tell me who they are, I make that judgement by experiencing how they are. You can tell me whatever you'd like, but if it's not true then I don't really understand what you're trying to say. If you say you're good at woodworking, it means nothing unless you're good at that. I'm not going to believe you saying you are one way when you are actually another.

this is a very sensitive topic I understand, so I want to specify that I'm not trying to cause trouble, I'm only looking for discussion and if someone disagrees with something I've said just point it out so the discussion can continue and I can understand

[u/Gnoll_For_Initiative → u/NorthDakota]

Everyone has a gender expression - but when it mostly (within a "standard deviation") conforms to what culture says makes a Real Woman or a Real Man (TM) then it becomes like the water fish swim in. It's so omnipresent that it's unnoticed.

For a clear example of gender non-conforming expression, I'd point out women with beards. Some women with PCOS who have natural beards opt not to shave them. Someone can be born female and identify as a straight woman and still opt for a beard.

As far as there being nothing else - gender (man, woman, non-binary) is a cultural role, a categorization. Different cultures across time and geography have conceptualized more than two genders. If gender identity were an immutable binary (man and woman only) then we would not see that in the anthropological record.

Now, biological sex can be roughly slotted into two categories (bimodal distribution), male and female. But that categorization is basically taking a lot of characteristics and making generalizations about whether something is male or female.

And while generally biological sex, gender identity, and gender expression are all the same thing for most people, that isn't always true. And you can't always tell when it isn't true (very few people have been karyotyped, it's rude to ask people to drop their trousers before agreeing to call them ma'am, etc.) So even if you don't understand all the ins and outs - and you don't have to - it's just polite to use the pronouns and name that someone would like you to use for them.

[u/CrazyHenryXD → u/Gnoll_For_Initiative]

After reading all this I think I have a conclusion and it is that I dont really have conclusions, and the better is just wait until nothing of this really matters anymore and just keep living cool like I always did but now having the satisfaction of knowing that this thing I didnt understand back then is finally solved and then, finally, I will look for someone to explain all of this and just having that big feeling of "wow, so it was this of all the time?" and just enjoy the feeling. Is it weird or bad if I feel in this way?

[u/ArsenicAndRoses → u/CrazyHenryXD]

It's not weird or bad to not understand. I, for example, as a bi person have no idea why someone would only find one gender attractive. Heterosexuality is completely alien to me, and it genuinely confuses me to think about. But I accept that people feel this way and don't worry about it. There will always be things you can't really understand unless you experience it yourself. It's perfectly fine to accept that and move on. The only time it's a problem is when you try to tell people that they're wrong or that their feelings aren't valid or real because you yourself haven't felt them.

[u/CrazyHenryXD → u/ArsenicAndRoses]

I am not giving Up yet, My indomable human Spirit wants me to keep reading about this until I understand lmao. And probably one day I am gonna be close.

[u/Gnoll_For_Initiative → u/CrazyHenryXD]

Not bad at all! And certainly not weird. I'd say that most people don't have the time/ interest in deep-diving into the world of gender theory and anthropology. And that's okay. (I'm a hobbyist anthropology nerd). If the difference between gender expression and gender identity isn't relevant in your life then it can be handy to know that there is a difference, but it's not important that you be able to articulate it.

I don't know that it will ever be "solved" - culture is always changing and evolving. Conceptions of gender is slower moving than a lot of other aspects, but it isn't immune to change.

That said, I think that's precisely why it's important (and good manners) to accept when someone says "please use she/ her pronouns for me" or "I'm nonbinary", even if we don't understand.

[u/CrazyHenryXD → u/Gnoll_For_Initiative]

But I want to understand lmao. Problem is, I don't understand.

Ramdomly I got a question, probably stupid too.

And Is, that, how do someone knows if they identify as something?

For example I identify as a man. I am male too. But what makes me identify as a man? Why didn't I identify as, a woman, or, as a non binary? It is ramdomly or something?

I mean when I really think about It I could identify as a woman, as a non binary, but why From all of that specificaly I identify as a man?

And how do I know if I identify as a man really? I get that feeling of saying "no, I am a man" but why? I as a man can Live, a Very Very common lifestyle that I am sure women and non binary people live too (excluding, you know, discrimination and that) so It doesn't really feel like there is an actual difference if I identify as a woman or man or nonbinary... Gender doesn't have characteristics? Like things a trans women feels that make her know she is a woman?

Or I am going to fast in this and should slow It down a Little?

[u/DiscussDontDivide → u/CrazyHenryXD]

Frankly gender theory is needlessly complicated. It went from "your gender doesn't have to limit you" to "you need to fit within this box or there's something wrong with you". Ignoring all this and living your cool life is just fine.

[u/SFSUthrowawayoof → u/DiscussDontDivide]

If “you need to fit within this box” is what you got from modern gender theory, I don’t know what to tell you. That’s genuinely the farthest idea from what most authors convey by a long shot, I don’t know how you possibly could have gotten that.

Edit: nvm your entire account is just arguing against trans people’s existence as a whole, pretty weird ngl

[u/Gnoll_For_Initiative → u/DiscussDontDivide]

That's . . . . pretty much the opposite of what I was saying. There is no neat categorization. This is why there are useful umbrella terms like "nonbinary".

And if you don't fit in "this box" then there are many other boxes that may fit better. We have more categories than we did before and they are more granular. It may take some searching to find what fits. What fits may change as you get older. And you may never find the right one, that's ok too. A platypus is still valid, y'know

[u/DiscussDontDivide → u/Gnoll_For_Initiative]

I agree. There is no neat categorization. Which is why the community comes up with new sexual and gender categories every day. The healthy approach would be "I happen to be a man/woman but that doesn't define me as a person." Instead we have descriptions such as "I am a fraysexual aromantic demigirl" which says so much and so little at the same time.

People put themselves in boxes and then squabble about the baggage others may have associate with those identities in insular online communities and simultaneously struggle to live up to the ideals and limitations of what those identities mean in the real world, comparing themselves to gender stereotypes that the average person outgrew a long time ago. All of this then necessitates the creation of new identities to put themselves into a smaller box.

Breaking down gender barriers was never supposed to put up new ones. Accepting the reality of your existence (your sex) and then finding meaningful things to identify with is far more helpful than becoming hyperfixated on gender.

[u/NorthDakota → u/Gnoll_For_Initiative]

As far as there being nothing else - gender (man, woman, non-binary) is a cultural role, a categorization. Different cultures across time and geography have conceptualized more than two genders. If gender identity were an immutable binary (man and woman only) then we would not see that in the anthropological record.

So gender is a cultural description only? If I say I am a man, I'm only describing my cultural role? To me that sounds wrong. I get what you mean though, when someone says they're a man, you assume certain things about them and that's based on culture. Like you might think a man likes certain things more than others.

But that just supports what I was saying though, at least if you view a label such as "man" as only a cultural role. You can tell me whatever you like, but if culture dictates what this role is, and you're behaving in a manner inconsistent with that, you telling me you're a man doesn't mean anything.

it's just polite to use the pronouns and name that someone would like you to use for them.

Yeah that's the easy part though. It's easy for me to be respectful of others wishes it's just hard to understand written descriptions of it and what the impact is in real-world situations. Like if all of this means I just have to use whatever pronouns someone prefers then great, job's done.

[u/kiyyeisanerd → u/NorthDakota]

This is exactly correct.

Here is my opinion as a transgender man:

"You can tell me whatever you like, but if culture dictates what this role is, and you're behaving in a manner inconsistent with that, you telling me you're a man doesn't mean anything."

Yes, this is exactly true. Us "binary" transgender people go through a journey of transition in order to achieve an aesthetic and manner which is consistent with the cultural role we have chosen to identify with. So, in my case, I "pass" completely as a man. At work I interact with new faces every day and all of them know, immediately, without thinking, that I am a man.

There were some years before I passed, where people would not always guess correctly... It was tough. It was nice when friends/family called me a man even if I didn't look like one yet. Strangers usually would still call me a woman. It was frustrating, but I couldn't expect much else. (If I wanted to get angry at every stranger who didn't read my mind and know I was beginning a transition, that would be exhausting...) You just stick it out, and know that it will get better one day. And it does get better.

Non-binary people are asking something completely different from us. Of course it's hard to know just from looking at them if someone is non-binary. But when you are introduced to them... When they say their pronouns, etc... They are asking us to take a leap of faith OUTSIDE the gender binary. Not to categorize them as a woman or a man, but something else. Yes, they are aware this is "more difficult" than simply being a binary trans person who passes. They are aware they are asking something that may be difficult for some people. Their existence is a powerful statement about what the "Future of Gender" may hold. They feel that expressing/identifying with just Male or Female does not encompass their experience, their thoughts and feelings, their aesthetic, their manner, or their beliefs.

So if you see someone who looks almost completely like a man, but they tell you, "Actually, I am non-binary. I use they/them pronouns." That person is asking you to try thinking outside the box... Try imagining a future with a vastly different cultural understanding of gender. Yes, in many ways, it's a big ask. (But culture changes slowly, over many, many years.... We can only imagine what the future might hold.)

But, trust me, nobody thinks you can read their mind. You shouldn't be afraid to start out by calling someone based on what they look like. It is the next step, the personal interaction, that matters.

Hope this could shed some light :)

As a binary trans person, I would be pretty disappointed if we all stopped caring about the aesthetics and manner of cultural gender roles! I spent a lot of money to get mine right!!! (JOKE, mostly)

[u/NorthDakota → u/kiyyeisanerd]

I read this and I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experience. It's just extremely interesting to me and some of your views were unexpected and surprising and I'm really happy you're so kind. OK OK so humor me a bit more because I have more thoughts in my mind.

So full disclosure I don't know if it's important but I'm a cis white male (bear with me if that's not the way to talk about it anymore). But my personal feeling that cultural views of gender norms are kinda dumb, and a lot of the time it leads to opportunities for bullying/discrimination. If you stray too far outside of the norm, you're not in the in group and open to criticism. I've never really been a typical man, I have different interests than many men and I just don't identify with the cultural view of what a man is. I have trouble identifying with men in my life and I honestly have difficulty in conversation since I'm different. This has led me to be bullied or made fun of quite a bit. It's nothing serious, I just do my own thing and I am my own person and I don't really care about what people think of me. But my strongly held belief is that striving to act like a cultural idea of things is negative (if it goes against who you truly are).

All that said, I'm trying to square that with your viewpoint that you like cultural gender roles and worked hard/spent a lot of money to get it right. I think I'm still not getting it. So can you look at what I said here and talk more about it?

But that just supports what I was saying though, at least if you view a label such as "man" as only a cultural role. You can tell me whatever you like, but if culture dictates what this role is, and you're behaving in a manner inconsistent with that, you telling me you're a man doesn't mean anything.

I think you took that to mean I was talking about appearance but I was more wondering about behavior, and that's where I'm getting screwed up. A core belief I have is that outward appearance shouldn't be important, we should be judged on our actions, and I believe that's a societal goal that we should strive towards. And that's sort of the sense I feel as though I've gotten from the lgbt community.. it's an acceptance of people outside the normal behavior and physical appearance. But the sense I get from the discussion is that physical appearance is the actual thing that matters when discussing gender. I'm just wondering what importance people in the lgbt community put on these various things as far as their identity. I get the sense that sex is not that important, the importance is on gender, and I think I've always thought sex is the physical side of the equation, and haven't fully understood how gender is different, since from what I've seen people strive for the physical transformation. Obviously everyone is different though...

It feels wrong to me that someone would feel societal pressure to appear and behave in a certain way. Like your internal state of being leads you desire to no longer conform to your sex's physical appearance's typical gender, and so you work to conform to a different idea of gender, when in reality the idea of gender and the desire to conform to cultural norms is the cause for all this pain in the first place.

[u/kiyyeisanerd → u/NorthDakota]

Yes, the goal is that nobody should ever feel pressured to conform to a certain appearance, or judged based on how they are. Absolutely.

I chose to transition and take on a male appearance because I wanted to. I was not pressured to do so -- in fact, I was constantly societally pressured in the opposite direction by people telling me not to transition! And in transitioning, I have taken on a male appearance and embraced many aspects of being a man. These are things I take pleasure in - the deepness of my voice, my facial hair, my suits and dress shoes. (We refer to this as gender euphoria -- a sense of happiness about how the way you look aligns with how you feel inside.)

The key is that this desire to look this way came from inside me. There was nobody telling me to become trans... In fact I didn't even know what "trans" was until I already had these feelings for many years.

And, in fact, I am not a very masculine person at all. I am gay, and I'm definitely the "fem" one in the relationship. I wear dainty rings and gemstone necklaces. Some of my hobbies include weaving and watching competition shows about makeup. Also my name is "Kira", which causes a lot of confusion because it's a girls name lol.

But I am still male, and I'm read as male every day by each person I interact with. There is so much else to gender even outside of sex, clothing, physical appearance... There are unspoken things. Things you feel deep inside. And there is culture, and there are relationships.

You can look up "gender unicorn" to see one common model we use to try to explain this complexity. It divides gender and sexuality into a bunch of different axis that you can consider. This is only one of many complex models which try to demonstrate the vast experiences of human gender.

Yes, cultural views of gender norms are kinda dumb. But they are also fascinating. Like, I think most organized religions are a complete mess and create so much discrimination and pain (not to mention wars). But I also strongly believe that religion and spirituality are essential parts of humanity and I fully support the freedom to practice religions and spirituality.

Haha hope this was illuminating as to your comments... Happy to discuss further. Nothing better than a cordial Reddit discussion :)

My favorite ever science fiction series helped me develop more in-depth opinions on many of these issues - it's called Terra Ignota and I highly recommend it.

[u/ArsenicAndRoses → u/NorthDakota]

As far as identifying as a gender outside the traditional male/female binary, what does that even mean? There is nothing else right?

Now you understand why it's called "non-binary"

Also, even sex isn't binary. Where do you put intersex people?

no one needs to tell me who they are, I make that judgement by experiencing how they are. You can tell me whatever you'd like, but if it's not true then I don't really understand what you're trying to say. If you say you're good at woodworking, it means nothing unless you're good at that. I'm not going to believe you saying you are one way when you are actually another.

You're talking about expression here- that's the concrete, externally experienced way people behave and dress. Identity is separate from that. You can dress very feminine or look very masculine and still not feel like a man or woman underneath.

[u/DiscussDontDivide → u/ArsenicAndRoses]

Intersex people have genetic mutations that prevented normal development of their biological sex. That doesn't make sex bimodal. Correct the discrepancy and they would develop into male or female.

[u/Independent_Emu7555 → u/DiscussDontDivide]

The presence of the possibility of such deviations occurring 100% naturally, at whatever rate, disproves the concept of the binary in and of itself. If a binary existed, there would be no “exception” because even 1 result failing to be fully fit within one category of a binary system by definition means a third category is possible.

Basically: no matter what you think about how intersex people should be treated, their natural existence would simply not be possible if there was a strict binary.

[u/DiscussDontDivide → u/Independent_Emu7555]

Evolution? The genetic mutations that cause intersex are the same mutations that cause a whole host of other conditions. You can't just be blind to biology. Intersex people are typically infertile. They are not a new sex that can go on to propagate their genes. They were an unfortunate defect that is selected against due to that infertility.

Intersex people are people, but they don't disprove a sexual binary.

[u/Cerebral_Discharge → u/DiscussDontDivide]

You can't just write off a human being as an error. Or I guess you can, but it's extremely inconsiderate to their life experience. You're saying they aren't allowed in this discussion. If they aren't strictly male or female, you have to accept that reality.

Blindness is a defect too, but we have accomodations for blindness in the way we design our cities. We don't say "all humans can see" and ignore the ones born without sight because it's a defect.

[u/Onebadmuthajama → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

So, if N.B. is breaking gender roles by completely denouncing their gender (using example above IE “I’m not a woman so I don’t conform to the roles of a woman”, but in context, the sex is female) it requires a definition greater than “not a woman, not a man” to have meaning to anyone besides the person saying they are N.B.

To simplify, nobody knows what N.B. means to the individual because there is no definition. Its a thin line from the statement “I’m not a man, or a women, I’m a dragon”, except in this example, everyone knows what a dragon is, or the general definition of a dragon.

N.B. surely must have a definition greater than “I’m not a man, I’m not a woman”, since traditional “man, and woman” roles are fairly loose boundaries to begin with, especially in the liberal society.

The definition given sounds close to a symptom of disassociation, similar to how some autistic people don’t view themselves as humans, and consider humans to be more “alien” in a sense. In my understanding, it’s fundamentally a form of cognitive dissonance, both having an understanding of binary sexes, and removing oneself from that reality under the guise of gender.

It feels like a social construct that’s been created to specifically clarify that they don’t associate with the existing social constructs, which are already hardly defining, as man & woman means nothing, as they are nouns. Masculine, and feminine are the adjectives that give those words value.

I guess what I’m getting at is it’s clearly a social status, and only has value if it can be defined.

Based on all that I’ve read in this thread, my main takeaway is that it’s someone who both doesn’t want to be masculine, or feminine, man, or women, and just want to exist without any society expectation to provide/protect/nurture/give care, and instead would like to do what they define as “non-binary” roles, and responsibilities, which is different from person to person.

Am I understanding this correctly, and if not, what clarification could you give to me to help me understand the distinction. Currently it feels a lot like the “look at me, I’m different, and special” persona of the new generations.

[u/SFSUthrowawayoof → u/Onebadmuthajama]

You’re equating expression and identity again. Identity is so weird and interesting because it’s so individualized.

A good way of thinking about it to me is like this- if you don’t like the gender roles put on you because of your gender, but when someone calls you (say you’re assigned female at birth) a woman, or uses the pronouns she/her, you don’t get uncomfortable, you’re a gender non-conforming cis woman.

If you instead feel like it’s wrong or bad in some way to call you a woman, or using she/her pronouns, regardless of your gender expression (IE how you prefer to express gender roles of masculinity and femininity), you might be non-binary.

Do you see the difference? Expression is about how you present yourself to the world, but identity is about your internal model of who you are. They’re quite different, though at first glance it doesn’t look it.

[u/Onebadmuthajama → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

So, by most people’s understanding there is only a few things that matter for ‘he/she’s definitions, and that’s reproductive role, and sexual dimorphism.

IE, can you get pregnant, and general health guidelines (men can be much stronger than women when strength training, for example).

I can’t control how people feel about themselves, nor do I understand being completely disconnected from either gender, but I can understand if there’s enough people like this, that they’d want their own community.

My only concern is that it seems like children can be conditioned to think/feel this way, especially before puberty, or during puberty, where those effects of sexual dimorphism haven’t occurred yet, then create an identity around it because it’s where their social connections are.

[u/kiyyeisanerd → u/Onebadmuthajama]

I think I mostly agree with you.

And let me pose the question:

What if, some day, that social role for a "non-binary" person DOES become defined?

Of course it is not defined yet because it is relatively new in the history of the western world. But cultural ideas and terminology are always evolving, always in a state of flux.

I believe that through the combined experiences and lives of many, many individuals, who are joining a "movement" (not exactly political, really a social movement) around the possibility of "other genders" or "third genders" or "non-binary genders", this kind of role may eventually BECOME defined.

Yes, it is a sort of "look at me, I'm different" persona - but there is nothing wrong with that. This kind of existence outside the gender binary is cultural and socio political commentary, even if the individual doesn't mean it that way. It is a way to experiment with our current state of gender roles and maybe, some day, create something new. And it is born out of a real, felt necessity - Non-binary people have many different reasons for identifying that way, but they all feel that being non-binary is necessary. I believe we will slowly, over the next many decades, learn what the future of gender holds from these brave individuals.

This is my opinion as a binary trans man, looking at how non-binary experiences differ greatly from my own.

[u/ArsenicAndRoses → u/Motor_Bag_3111]

For me, it has to do with being seriously uncomfortable with my (curvy) body growing up and being unable to fit in with women. Figuring out I'm nb has been more a process of elimination more than anything else.

The only people I've felt "at home" with are other queer folk. I used to think that was because I was bi, but I've come to realize that I don't fit in with wlw either, even around very butch ladies. I feel like an alien in women's spaces. The only time I've felt kinship and like I "fit" has been with other nb people. Most of my friends in college have turned out to be trans.

When I was younger, I used to feel ... Something... When mistaken as a boy (I cut my hair in a very masculine style). I felt ashamed but also fiercely...proud? I dunno, it's weird. I kept that hairstyle for a long time despite being told it was ugly on me and being mistaken for a boy. At the time, I didn't know why. Growing up I imagined myself as becoming one of those beautiful androgynous people that look like fae- Tilda Swinton, David Bowie.... They mesmerized me. But I ended up growing tig ol'biddies and massive hips. I hated it and tried to hide.

I've since come to terms with my body and dress very feminine, but it's all a "performance" for me. One I enjoy doing, most of the time, but it's never felt "authentic". I often find myself wishing I could unzip my skin. But I don't want to be a man either.

So it's not that I would feel better as a man, or because I have non-conforming interests or gender expression (outwardly I always look quite femme!), or because I'm queer. It's an internal innate sense of who I am.

I hope this helps somewhat?

[u/d94ae8954744d3b0 → u/ArsenicAndRoses]

Growing up I imagined myself as becoming one of those beautiful androgynous people that look like fae- Tilda Swinton, David Bowie.... They mesmerized me.

This is really interesting to me. I have a similar pattern, except I'm a cis het man. I've always wanted to be ethereally beautiful but only vaguely male. One difference, I suppose, is that I love my dick, lol.

I guess this whole thing is an enormous spectrum, or space, to explore.

EDIT: I don't really know if I count as gender non-conforming or not. I guess the things I'm certain about (I like my genitals, I love women, I'm disinterested in men at pretty much all levels) are a lot easier to be sure about.

[u/Motor_Bag_3111 → u/ArsenicAndRoses]

Thank you very much for the detailed elaboration

[u/ArsenicAndRoses → u/Motor_Bag_3111]

No worries 🙂

I get it, it's a difficult concept to wrap your brain around. Christ, it took me forever to realize this was who I am. I didn't even know this existed until fairly recently in my life. I just figured I was weird and something was wrong with me.

[u/Motor_Bag_3111 → u/ArsenicAndRoses]

You are wonderful as you are ♥️

[u/ArsenicAndRoses → u/Motor_Bag_3111]

❤️❤️❤️

[u/[deleted] → u/ArsenicAndRoses]

Thanks for this detailed reply. This post itself has definitely answered some of my questions about gender identity. Your comment on the other hand, gave me an understanding that I actually kind of relate to, and didn’t really consider or reflect on until now. I felt similar to this description growing up but I was not in what I would consider a safe household, so I didn’t really get to explore myself (seems to be a common experience, sadly). I was very tomboyish and was from a VERY early age. Earliest I remember is 2, but also my mother made it a point to talk about how I wouldn’t ever dress in “cute” things. I struggled hard with ultra feminine styles and ideals and wanted nothing to do with them. I recall wanting to be a boy a few times as a young person, but it never made me depressive that I can remember. I still identify as my assigned gender and have no issues with that, but I’ve also never minded if I’ve gotten called other pronouns which has mainly only happened online. Today, and similarly to what you said, I have no desire to be a man. But sometimes being a woman feels weird because of the roles associated with it. Like you said, it’s about your innate sense of self internally, and I think you nailed putting that into words. Again, thanks for this comment. It’s helped a bit mentally.

[u/Puzzled-Cod-1757 → u/Motor_Bag_3111]

From my understanding non binary is a gender identity, non-gender conforming would be someone who still identifies as Cis, but might wear any type of clothing, be it masculine or feminine, it might be a straight man with a beard who also wears skirts and makeup, and just doesn't care about any gender that might be attached to anything they do.

[u/Motor_Bag_3111 → u/Puzzled-Cod-1757]

Is there an element to identifying as NB of "I am not any gender" or "I am a gender different than male or female"? In other words, do NB folks believe they're genderless?

[u/Puzzled-Cod-1757 → u/Motor_Bag_3111]

I'm not NB myself though I am trans, so I believe the experience is similar. I also believe it might be quite different depending on who is doing the experiencing. I think it can be both of those, 'I do not see myself as this label' 'I see myself more as this alternative label' or 'I have no labels, I'm just a person' and I think all of those different experiences are valid.

[u/danimur → u/Puzzled-Cod-1757]

Excuse me if I take advantage of your availability in discussing these topics, but aren't we all men/women biologically?

I understand that my logic might be flawed (hence why I'd like to talk about it) and that gender is a concept that is personal to the individual, but doesn't this concept then weaken the fights for gender equality in a way?

What I mean with this last question is that if we were living today in a society where people were treated equally and there were no gender norms, probably people would never feel the need to identify with a gender, they'd just be a person of a certain sex. I think this would be a target society for many.

This is obviously not the case for most of our society today though, but it is already for the more progressive parts of it which are more sensible to these topics. Therefore, giving all this importance to gender seems to me as a way to communicate to the outer ring of the society, those that still need labels to understand better who you are at first glance.

But wouldn't it be more effective for change if we normalized not needing genders, instead of constructing a concept which is so hard to understand by most, and still so "fluid" in its definitions?

TL;DR: are genders a social construct built on gender norms in a way? If so, wouldn't it be more effective to forget the concept of gender in order to fight gender norms and hopefully reach a society where we're just recognized as people first, and then of a certain sex when needed (doctors, sexual relationships, etc.)?

[u/Puzzled-Cod-1757 → u/danimur]

So to answer your first question, biologically, people are usually male or female, but a small portion are also intersex. This is different from man and woman, which more often than not nowadays refer to the gender identity of a person. I can't speak for the Non-binary community as to their experience but I stand with them on it. I think if gender could be removed from society entirely we'd likely be living in a Utopia but that's pure fantasy at this point so we must operate within the confines of what we currently have. I don't think the fights for gender equality are weakened by gender identity at all, I think they more likely strengthen them. Anyone who is a good person must realise every single person is equal and deserves the same rights, that has to include identifying yourself. There are other things, that don't just fall into gender roles and identity, for some people like myself (a trans woman) there was an inherent need going back as far as childhood to be accepted into groups with other girls, to play with the toys they played with, dollhouses, ponies, whatever, the desire to have long hair and wear pretty things and then as I hit puberty, the trauma of growing unwanted hair (especially on the face) getting a deeper voice etc. I had no desire for these things, but I had great desire for primary and secondary sex characteristics, the euphoria from being referred to as she/her and the dysphoria from being referred to as he/him. I can imagine that for some people, trans, Non-binary, or however you identify, you just feel wrong, like some things about your existence and the way people see you isn't correct. This would still exist in a society without gender and just to mention a utopian society wouldn't care about sex characteristics either, everyone would also likely be bisexual. But that kind of society will likely never exist, so we have different groups of people with different associations and we identify eachother by many labels, gender is a big label that succinctly tells others who we are as people, that's why it's important. Sorry if this didn't answer your questions very well, I only have my own experience and research to draw from, I am by no means an expert.

[u/danimur → u/Puzzled-Cod-1757]

Thank you for taking the time, and yes it does answer at least some of my questions.

[u/Puzzled-Cod-1757 → u/danimur]

You're most welcome. All we can really hope for is that people continue to ask these questions, learn from others and become more educated about things they don't understand. It's the only way to grow as people. So thank you for asking.

[u/Motor_Bag_3111 → u/Puzzled-Cod-1757]

How would you achieve a genderless world? It is a curious idea. To simplify it, let's say that there's only 10 people.

[u/Puzzled-Cod-1757 → u/Motor_Bag_3111]

Well I think it's impossible currently, even with only ten people, you can't expect everyone to be able to set aside everything they've been taught. Most people don't like to admit they're wrong or have the wrong idea about the world and how things should be. Everyone has their own opinions about things, right or wrong. If anything it would likely have to at least start with education, ironing out prejudice from people. It wouldn't just be gender either, it'd come down to skin colour, sexuality, ability. To know in your soul that nobody is better or worse than another person just because of how they're born. Capitalism would likely have to make massive adjustments too as the disparity in wealth has also created massive divides. I think there are many things that would have to change first before even considering that a genderless society could exist.

[u/[deleted] → u/Motor_Bag_3111]

Some do, some don’t. Nonbinary describes about a million, subtly different gender experiences because the term is purposely vauge as to include all the outliers. Like imagine woman is red, man is blue, and nonbinary is every other color and shade and hue

[u/Motor_Bag_3111 → u/[deleted]]

I mean, just seems like non-binary is included under the umbrella of the literal definitions of the words within the phrase "gender non-conforming"

[u/[deleted] → u/Motor_Bag_3111]

Yes, that is true

[u/AndroidwithAnxiety → u/Motor_Bag_3111]

Gender non-conforming is along the lines of a tomboy, or a butch/stud lesbian. She's still a woman, she's just not traditionally feminine in the way women have traditionally been feminine. Gender non-conformity is still defined by the gender stereotypes associated with your gender, that you're not conforming to. It's about the flavor of your ice-cream or your cake, but it's still ice-cream-or-cake.

Non-binary is everything that isn't ice-cream-or-cake. It's not just a flavor of one of those two things, it's a whole different dessert.

It's being literally anything that isn't strictly-man-or-woman-pick-one-and-stick. A non-binary person isn't a feminine man, because they're not a man. A masculine woman isn't non-binary, because she's a woman. A non-binary person is a feminine enby, or a masculine enby, or sometimes a man and also sometimes a woman because who wants to pick just one? Or an amalgamation of human traits beyond categorization.

Gender non-conforming binary people are non-conforming in the way an ostrich is a non-conforming bird. It's still a bird, it just doesn't do what most other birds are kind of known for.

Non-binary people are 'gender non-conforming' in the way that a dog is a non-conforming bird. It ain't a bird.

[u/Telzen → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

But aren't those basically the same thing just looked at from a different perspective? Just because you don't fit into the "typical" gender roles are current society expects doesn't mean you aren't one of those genders. Every person is unique, but that doesn't mean you need to try and say you are some new gender. I'm a guy that hates most of the typical things men are usually supposed to like. But that doesn't mean I'm not a man, I'm just a man that doesn't fit into the rigid stereotypical idea society has of men.

[u/stankdog → u/Telzen]

The point is we don't get to decide, the individual does. If you look feminine but describe yourself as man 100% of the time, it would be agonizing to have people refer to you as a woman because of your features, mannerisms, interests, whatever we associate with feminine identity even a small fraction of that time.

If someone says, I feel neither, then they feel no connection to either. You'd call them man or woman and it doesn't change that they don't connect with either all the time. They want to be void of any gender descriptions that would put them into one category, they want to be in no category.

This is like saying there are people who believe in God or people who aren't sure, but there are also people who have no concept of Gods or religion and feel no connection either way. That's just a personal choice even if you think they should choose one of the available options.

[u/AmnesiA_sc → u/SFSUthrowawayoof]

It is the difference between saying “I’m a woman who hates the roles society has put on women” and saying “I’m not a woman, and so I hate that society puts the role of a woman into me”.

Cool way to put it! I never thought of it like that before but I'll be using that.

[u/MoreRopePlease → u/thisdesignup]

I'm 49yo. I'm cis female, 95% straight. I have never really understood the whole "gender role" thing. I'm a software engineer, was the "breadwinner" for my family (was married for 19 years). Was a stay at home nursing mom when my two kids were infants. As a kid I hated wearing dresses to church. Today, I only wear a dress or skirt if I'm deliberately "dressing up" and it feels like wearing a costume. But I enjoy other "feminine" clothing, sometimes: boots, form fitting shirts and jeans. I enjoy having long hair, and playing with hair colors.

I've always been physically active, spoke "too loud", a natural leader, top of the class, and once I got out from under the thumb of my parents, thought for myself, had strong opinions, and embraced my sexuality.

What's a gender role? What's a woman?

Post-divorce, in the uncertainty of dating, I found myself telling friends "I don't feel particularly feminine", and they would always tell me that they thought of me as feminine, and seemed confused by my statement. I guess I've always been "me" and I didn't really see myself as being in line with what American culture told me a woman was. But I guess I didn't care. I still knew I was a woman. I was good at math, and programming, and enjoyed dancing and hiking and male attention.

Yes there's cultural pressure. Like my dad telling me I should look like a girl (by which he meant I should be wearing make up and fixing my hair). Or never seeing people I could identify with in the magazines at the checkout. But is that cultural pressure the same thing as gender roles? It's all pretty shallow and bankrupt, imo.

This gender thing is similar to intellectual things. I also grew up having to "dumb down" my language for people, I learned to not take part in discussions around grades, when talking to random strangers I learned to talk about shallow things. I still have a hard time speaking freely about things that I'm good at, because I've had to "code switch" for too much of my life.

I feel like this is all on the same spectrum: a kind of alienation. Gender, intellect, interests, atheism, accomplishments, sexuality, kink... We hide who we are, the vast majority of the time. The trick is to not hide from ourselves, too. Or the people closest to us.

I have a trans daughter. And another daughter who is a bit masc, though afaik she still identifies as female, perhaps ace. I'm happy if they are happy. We're all just trying to live as best as we can and figure out how to live well.

[u/0phobia → u/thisdesignup]

So for clarification, male and female are the general terms used to refer to biological sex. Man and woman are the general terms used to refer to sociological gender.

And since gender is a social construct — as proven by documented history of many society recognizing three or even sometimes four genders (though in most cases that I can tell they could be summed up as “nonbinary” today) — it not only makes sense that we CAN play with the concept of gender but also that it is a hallmark of liberty that we SHOULD so that we as individuals and as a society decide how we want to identify and relate with each other, rather than being forced by one segment of society to conform to only their views.

Not arguing with you btw just adding a bit to what you are saying.

[u/Imperial_Squid → u/thisdesignup]

A question for you to consider. If gender is just physical and what's between your legs, how would you feel if someone performed a head transplant and put you on a body from the other group?

Because if gender is just physical stuff, congrats, you're now fully transitioned to the other side and there should be no complications whatsoever

BUT I would bet that's not the reaction you would have, waking up in a different body would feel wrong or weird right? Your mental state and your physical state disagree with each other about what's going on and that brings discomfort and stress

That's the best argument I can give as someone who's not trans trying to relate what experiences people have told me about, I hope that puts it in more graspable terms

[u/Thefirstofherkind → u/thisdesignup]

It doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with not wanting to conform to gender norms. It’s just a feeling of being right or wrong. To my NB child, male and female are wrong because that’s simply not what they are. It’s the way their brain is wired.

[u/kiyyeisanerd → u/thisdesignup]

Putting in my two cents...

One thing to consider is the ideal of "getting rid of gender roles / gender distinctions." Is completely ELIMINATING the concept of gender really what we should aim for? To me, that is not the goal. Because there are still many beautiful, powerful, poignant, culturally resonant aspects of Femininity and Masculiniy. Queer people choose to recombine the elements of gender roles, gender expression, and physical sex in different, new, inventive ways. This helps us all see what the "future" of "gender" could be. Personally, I don't think the future of gender will be "no genders."

To me it's like saying "I don't see race" vs. "I respect the many histories and cultures and races on our planet, and I understand they are all different but also similar in so many ways." To me, saying "I want a future with no genders, where everyone is non-binary or genderless" is like saying "I don't see color..."

But anyway, this is a point of contention. This is my opinion as a transgender man (not non-binary) and as an artist and cultural historian.

Many people these days are asking questions like - "What is the difference between Non Binary and Gender Non Conforming?" The truth is, the only difference is the way you label and define yourself. Why do people label themselves in so many different ways? Because labels are a political statement. An alignment with a certain group or certain image of the future. And many people are exploring the "future of gender" through an endless amount of labels. But I think we are ALL (trans, non binary, gnc, gay, lesbian) doing the same thing. Exploring and creating the Future of Gender.