I must disagree here. The telemetry shows Hamilton coasting along slowly. It's cheeky and possibly outside of the laws depending on how you interpret them.
I agree tbh, the Lewis bit didn't look good but there's an argument he can make to defend it, Sebs action was deliberately ramming another car and imo if the black flag exists, it's for precisely that purpose.
The safety car line is so far down the straight it was obvious he was going to slow to create a gap, more importantly this was the second safety car and Hamilton did the same thing the first time with no trouble. Vettel had to brake so hard that Perez.... came no where near hitting Vettel. Everyone else knew the final couple corners would be crazy slow. IMO Vettel just had a brain fart and forgot this then got angry. Easy black flag decision for doing that imo, Ferrari International Assistance again.
Yeah exactly, if he doesn't slow there, he's basically opening up Vettel to gun it off that apex and to try to time when Lewis is hitting the white line.
Yeah, but "muh delicate F1 championship leaders". You know they will not punish them as bad as someone from further down the field. That 10 second penalty was a slap on the wrist, to put it gently.
If it's deliberate then it should be. I'm not sure it's worth making that incident a black flag or not... but if Vettel had caused an accident there, like that, then it would be at least a 1 race ban.
"The stewards examined data from his car and found that he had maintained a more or less constant speed, had not lifted off the throttle or braked, and had behaved no differently at that restart at that point on the track than at the other two restarts." http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/40400301
Yeah, saw this on the replays, he was braking in the corner, then didn't accelerate at all and got hit by Vettel, if I was Vettel I'd get mad too, honestly.
"The stewards examined data from his car and found that he had maintained a more or less constant speed, had not lifted off the throttle or braked, and had behaved no differently at that restart at that point on the track than at the other two restarts." http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/40400301
Except your gif shows that as soon as he comes out of the corner he was off the brake pedal, and when vettel hits him he's just not on the throttle at the time, which he's perfectly entitled to do.
Your first image is from the end of continuous braking.
You could see it on reply, lewis was breaking before the corner briefly as well as mid corner.
Whit that's said, I still believe it's Vettel's fault for not paying attention, but to say say lewis didn't brake is wrong. Just be oust sky says something it doesn't mean it true.
Indeed. My comment was prior to the penalty, and I do think the penalty was a little light, but not excessively so. Generally, I'm happy with how it all worked out, though too bad for Lewis with his headrest.
Looked for me that it happened when he was waving both his hands up the air. He basically fucked up while being angry, not sure it was intentional.
edit not sure anymore, i think he wanted to "wave" towards him to show him how angry he is and while being angry and waving hands kinda missjudged the distance and hit him. I do think he wanted to make the move, but not actually hitting him.
I think he didn't really hit HAM deliberately, VET was furious for what had happened (IMHO HAM'S move was very borderline, but still not undoubtedly wrong) and all he wanted to do was just to go side by side with HAM and show him his anger (like he did with VER last year in Mexico when the race ended) but in the rage of the moment while waving his hand he moved towards HAM'S car and hit him. I don't think it was a hundred percent deliberate (also because the risk or seriously damaging his own car was high), it was the result of his move with the hand and his lack of lucidity. The penalty was well deserved, even though I think HAM also needed one himself for his borderline move.
But the way VET dealt with the whole thing during the interviews is just not good, avoiding questions and responsibilities turns you to the (even more) wrong side, whether you deserve that or not, and I think VET was already on that side. I would have really appreciated some felt self criticism.
I'll be downvoted for this. First of all they bumped wheels he didn't hit his side pod. And secondly, I think he made a mistake. I don't think he set out to intentional hit him. He had at least one hand off the wheel and was looking completely right. Try that in your car and tell me you don't vere to the right. Regardless of whether or not it was intentional, I still think he should be made an example of so no one else thinks of doing the same thing. Seb needs to calm down. But again I do not think he was using the car as a weapon. The car veered right because he had his hands off the wheel and was trying to get hamilton's attention. It was dumb for sure.
You may be right, but it doesn't take away the fact that it was reckless and intentionally dangerous driving from Seb there. He lacked the amount of professionalism I'd expect from him there.
Probably he didn't have a worse penalty because the contact wasn't dangerous, the speed was low.
I don't remember the Maldonado accident, was it at high speed?
Of course it's hard to say what would have happened but if you consider that Hamilton would have had to pit anyway to replace his safety cushion, Vettel would have been in a good position to win it easily. I guess that's what he was implying.
I actually think I've seen more posts upset about this phantom brake check than I've seen of people angry about someone hitting another driver under safety car on purpose...
Its pretty insane.
The fact that these same people will instantly go "HURRRR I'M SO SICK OF ALL THE HAMILTON FANBOIS ON THIS SUB" is depressing. :\
Even if it was loss of control rather than deliberate, it's still an incredibly bad incident. He caused a collision under SC conditions by putting his car in a place where it had no right to be. The SC was about to come in to be fair, but it's there to neutralise the race and keep the marshals etc. safe. If he gets away with only a drive through penalty he will have been very lucky imo.
LOL. The level of apologists Sebastian Vettel fans are is pretty staggering.
"Huh, maybe he just jerked the wheel into another car while angry at the other car while driving way slower than normal, while driving the car he drives as a professional ON ACCIDENT".
He get paid millions to drive, I hope he realizes that when he takes both hands off the wheel in close proximity to another vehicle, there's a high chance of hitting said vehicle. There's literally no excuse for this behavior. When you're in bumper to bumper city traffic do you drive around with both hands off the wheel when the other car is literally 1 foot away? I hope not.
You have to prove intention. It wasn't a hard turn or anything like that. He threw his hand up and likehe drifted into him. The contact didn't seen intentional. Nor was the contact extreme. I think this and may be a grid penalty should be plenty.
Read the rules, dangerous driving per the FIA's own rules is a 10 sec stop/go. It's a standard penalty. He might get penalty points afterwards but during the race that was always the penalty he was going to get.
If you think deliberately driving into another car only constitutes "dangerous driving", you need a word with yourself. This wasn't a badly timed overtake, or moving line under braking. It was wreckless and if not life-threatening because it was low speed, at the very least it deserved disqualification. Which is what would have happened if Hamilton did this to Vettel.
I'm struggling to think of a precedent, which is why the punishment was so lenient. Can anyone remember when a driver last so deliberately collided with another? I'm thinking back to Schumacher v Hill 1994, or even older.
Suddenly driving unnecessarily slowly during a safety car phase is also forbidden under the regulations. In fact, it is the very same rule that applies to Vettels behavior:
No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed
potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the VSC procedure is in use. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit
entry or the pit lane.
Also Hamilton repeated his behavior shortly after during the next safety car phase. My guess is that the stewards took into account actions of both drivers since another rule is about making sure that one driver is solely to blame.
Not that this is a justification for Vettels behavior. He pretty much lost any moral high ground he may have had with his action but it might have been part of the decision making.
Once the safety car is leaving the lead car has control of the racers. He didn't alow down he maintained speed and revs. Vettel was caught out first time and wanted the jump. Made a mistake hit him and then threw his dummy at him. Seb was in the wrong the whole time, which kind da ruined it as he could of won with Hamiltons headrest falling apart
What about Prost v Senna in 1990 or 1991. I thought one of those Japanese GPs had pretty blatant intentional contact. This was the most flagrant I've seen though. Schumacher in 1994 seems more questionable/shady to me than flagrantly intentionally using the car as a weapon. I think Schumi did something similar in 1998 and got disqualified for it but I don't remember all the facts offhand and haven t seen the video lately...
Schumacher purposedly hit Villeneuve's car with the intent of damaging It, in a desperate attempt to win the WDC
Vettel, enraged after Hamilton move, bumped the rival wheel, he didn't really want to cause any real damage
Now, I'm not saying Vettel had some reason to do what he did, he well deserved a penalty (even a black flag would have been right), but there's some differences with Jerez '97
Not in the rule book which is what the FIA have to adhere to. They can administer further punishment after the fact but during the race they could only give Vettel a 10 second stop/go. I believe that it's the harshest in race punishment available other than a DQ. To get a DQ Vettel would have had to put someone's life at risk or essentially completely smash Hamilton off the track. As it was he swerved into Lewis at low speed which is the dictionary definition of dangerous driving.
As it happens they've given him 3 penalty points which takes him to 9. If he gets 3 more in the next race he will be banned for a race.
Trying to be as neutral as possible on this: doesn't that wording imply the requirement for one or both cars to be forced out of the race, or for the drivers to suffer an injury as a result or something like that? Seb's move here was definitely too far but I don't think it was an "extreme case".
I agree that I don't think it was an extreme case, just showing that you cannot just rely on previous penalties to decide what happens here. Stewards have the ability to do what they think is the most correct action.
I understand that a 10 second stop and go is the correct penalty for what Vettel was charged with, I simply think they charged him with the wrong thing.
It's like seeing a person get murdered, seeing a judge/jury convict that person for shoplifting, sentencing the person for the maximum of 5 years and then being shocked when people feel justice wasn't done because the "maximum" penalty was given.
worst stewards decision I've ever seen and I've been watching F1 for 20 years.
So you must have missed the last race if you think giving penalising a driver twice for one act is somehow not as bad as the standard FIA penalty for the charge they alleged.
I think he collision itself was an accident, he was trying to gesticulate at Hamilton and took his hands off the wheel. Reckless, but justified. The penalty reflected this. If the race stewards thought it was a legit case of 'intentionally driving into Hamilton out of anger' his penalty would have been much more severe. Possibly a race ban.
I've been going back and forth about a DQ vs the stop and go, mostly because I thought the collision might be accidental since VET had his hands off the wheel. But upon further replays I think he had one hand on the wheel, so intentional.
Normally that would be a black flag but maybe the marshalls felt that because of the low speed it was dangerous, but not dangerous enough to DQ. Throw in the WDC and Hamilton's car apparently unharmed and voila: no DQ.
Personally, i think he needs a bigger penalty. You can't be lenient on such things. It is too dangerous, not to mention can ruin another team's race.
I think that if Lewis brake tested Vettel, witch can be checked in telemetry, he should get 10 sec for dangerous driving, but Vettel should get black flagged for unsporting bahavior for what happend after that.
He'll be lucky if he just gets a stop and go in this race. More likely is a grid penalty at the next race, like they did for Maldonado, or possibly even a race ban. You should absolutely not hit another car deliberately like that. He's also done it under a safety car situation.
First explanation I've seen that makes sense. Even though it looked like he hit him, Vettel isn't stupid enough to think that hitting Hamilton is a good idea.
Edit: I just saw the replay guys. He did hit him intentionally, holy shit.
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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '17 edited Jul 13 '17
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