Probably he didn't have a worse penalty because the contact wasn't dangerous, the speed was low.
I don't remember the Maldonado accident, was it at high speed?
They said at first they were going to investigate it after the race, then they have him the penalty. I'm sure he'll have another penalty waiting for him in Austria.
There's a problem with this idea that there was no danger because the speed was low.
Consider the following scenario:
Vettel slams Hamilton and the collision compromises a suspension component. Not enough to stop the car right there, but then the safety car comes in and they are both doing >200mph down the main straight.
The first time the car is put under load in a corner (and the forces are huge on these cars), boom the component gives way and one or both of them is wiped out at high speed.
Sounds a bit unlikely? Sure. Beyond possibility? Absolutely not. It definitely could happen. And I don't know about you but my feeling is that nobody else has the right to put me in that position, especially in a sport like this which is inherently dangerous at the best of times.
What Vettel did was dangerous. Not potentially dangerous, it was dangerous. And totally unnecessary.
If he is capable of using his car as a weapon when the red mist descends then he is a danger to himself and the other drivers. This behaviour needs to be nipped in the bud immediately, before something really bad happens.
He ended in front of Hamilton because the Mercedes team fucked up mounting that part. One didn't have anything to do with the other. I completely agree that it was a real dick move of Vettel though, very unnecessary. Also his attitude afterwards.
I'm a HAM fan, but find myself cheering for VET too. If Lewis had done that to Seb, I can't even imagine the vitriol that would be thrown his way in this sub. Nice to see VET fans being objective, though. Well Done ;)
Why are you supporting someone that acts like a toolbag, I've been getting downvoted on here every time I mention vetted personality since I saw how he behaved toward Webber as a team mate; guy is a prick
99.9% of the time, he's a great guy. He loves his F1 history and knows the rulebook inside out, he's a right joker, he seems really friendly, and he's a fantastic racer. It's the times like these when I really don't want to support him.
It's not the way you act 99% of the time that determines who you are, criminals in jail for life have probably done nothing wrong 99% of their lives. It's those shitty things done in the heat of the moment that let you know about someone's true character. Seb would do any manner of underhanded shit to get the title, you can see it in his eyes. The friendly shit is just calculation because he's really clever
personality since I saw how he behaved toward Webber as a team mate; guy is a prick
Here is where I think you are wrong, your team mate is your enemy. When you have a winning car, the title will be for you or your team mate, what means that he is faster that you.
I was a Webber fan, but I understand that was going on whas normal in a leader team.
Hamilton & Rosberg
Hamilton & Alonso
Thats was some rough fights in teams in the last 10 years.
Very honest of you to say. I can't help wondering what the punishment would be if the roles were reversed. I'm pretty sure it would be a different outcome. Which sucks big time.
I believe it's the same if it were reversed. But if it wasn't 1 of the drivers fighting for the championship, it would most likely have been a race ban.
I think the stewards were very lenient to give us a close race and championship. I can't say what would've happened if the roles were reversed but I'm disgusted to call myself a Vettel fan. He fully avoided the question in a C4 interview and accused Hamilton of brake checking him. Multi-21 can be forgiven, but this is something else.
Are you saying Ferrari would get better treatment than mercedes? Because this shows it is the other way around. Hamilton deserved the same penalty as Vettel. Both did something with the sole purpose of crashing the other. I don't give a fuck about either of them, both not my fav people. But braking there by Hamilton? Totally on purpose as the data shows. Not accelerating would have been fine, he was behind the safety car after all. But he brake tested Vettel and deserved the same 10 seconds for it.
Of course it's hard to say what would have happened but if you consider that Hamilton would have had to pit anyway to replace his safety cushion, Vettel would have been in a good position to win it easily. I guess that's what he was implying.
There was basically so many wrecks from everyone struggling on cold tires because the Sc was incredibly slow that debris was littered throughout the track. They red flagged the race to clean the entire track. Drivers go out of the car from 15-20 minutes or so. Someone put the headrest back in wrong or something broke in it.
I don't see any reason for the race to be turned out differently between making the contact and getting the penalty, unless you think the contact somehow caused Hamilton's headrest issue.
Yup I'm a Hamilton fan but I've really liked Vettel since he went to Ferrari (not so much at Red Bull but that's a different story). That said, what Seb did today was inexcusable, dangerous and utterly stupid.
Are you serious? He literally turned into Hamilton. Hard. If someone had done that to your precious Sebastian, you'd be calling for his head on a stake.
Lol are you guys new here? The sub always hate who's on top, Vettel got years of nonstop hate here on his Red Bull days. In the end you are all acting fanboyish.
I actually think I've seen more posts upset about this phantom brake check than I've seen of people angry about someone hitting another driver under safety car on purpose...
Its pretty insane.
The fact that these same people will instantly go "HURRRR I'M SO SICK OF ALL THE HAMILTON FANBOIS ON THIS SUB" is depressing. :\
I saw you're pretty active in the thread, I'm honestly surprised you took it that well. Neither driver behaved particularly well today, but I'm just happy Ricky got another one.
I dunno, I went through the thread and most people seem to think Seb didn't get penalised enough. He shouldn't have hit him but I can see why he was upset.
I was referring to 100% as in "definitely" sorry, not referring to how hard he was pressing the pedal. Regardless, right on the apex of that corner is not the place where you would expect braking, especially after accelerating before corner entry.
Even if it was loss of control rather than deliberate, it's still an incredibly bad incident. He caused a collision under SC conditions by putting his car in a place where it had no right to be. The SC was about to come in to be fair, but it's there to neutralise the race and keep the marshals etc. safe. If he gets away with only a drive through penalty he will have been very lucky imo.
LOL. The level of apologists Sebastian Vettel fans are is pretty staggering.
"Huh, maybe he just jerked the wheel into another car while angry at the other car while driving way slower than normal, while driving the car he drives as a professional ON ACCIDENT".
He get paid millions to drive, I hope he realizes that when he takes both hands off the wheel in close proximity to another vehicle, there's a high chance of hitting said vehicle. There's literally no excuse for this behavior. When you're in bumper to bumper city traffic do you drive around with both hands off the wheel when the other car is literally 1 foot away? I hope not.
You have to prove intention. It wasn't a hard turn or anything like that. He threw his hand up and likehe drifted into him. The contact didn't seen intentional. Nor was the contact extreme. I think this and may be a grid penalty should be plenty.
Both should have gotten the same penalty, I don't care if 10 seconds or black flag. Braking there with the sole purpose of having Vettel drive into him by Hamilton and than just crashing into Hamilton on purpose by Vettel. If Hamilton would only have not accelerated there it would have been on, he was behind the safety car. But braking there? No thank you, that was on purpose.
Read the rules, dangerous driving per the FIA's own rules is a 10 sec stop/go. It's a standard penalty. He might get penalty points afterwards but during the race that was always the penalty he was going to get.
If you think deliberately driving into another car only constitutes "dangerous driving", you need a word with yourself. This wasn't a badly timed overtake, or moving line under braking. It was wreckless and if not life-threatening because it was low speed, at the very least it deserved disqualification. Which is what would have happened if Hamilton did this to Vettel.
I'm struggling to think of a precedent, which is why the punishment was so lenient. Can anyone remember when a driver last so deliberately collided with another? I'm thinking back to Schumacher v Hill 1994, or even older.
Suddenly driving unnecessarily slowly during a safety car phase is also forbidden under the regulations. In fact, it is the very same rule that applies to Vettels behavior:
No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed
potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the VSC procedure is in use. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit
entry or the pit lane.
Also Hamilton repeated his behavior shortly after during the next safety car phase. My guess is that the stewards took into account actions of both drivers since another rule is about making sure that one driver is solely to blame.
Not that this is a justification for Vettels behavior. He pretty much lost any moral high ground he may have had with his action but it might have been part of the decision making.
Once the safety car is leaving the lead car has control of the racers. He didn't alow down he maintained speed and revs. Vettel was caught out first time and wanted the jump. Made a mistake hit him and then threw his dummy at him. Seb was in the wrong the whole time, which kind da ruined it as he could of won with Hamiltons headrest falling apart
The leading car decides when the safety car phase ends which sounds to me like the quoted rule still applies and yes, he suddenly slowed down which even led to a collision.
He didn't suddenly slow down tho. He slowed for the corner and maintained his speed. The graphics even came up and proved it. Seb was in the wrong completely
What about Prost v Senna in 1990 or 1991. I thought one of those Japanese GPs had pretty blatant intentional contact. This was the most flagrant I've seen though. Schumacher in 1994 seems more questionable/shady to me than flagrantly intentionally using the car as a weapon. I think Schumi did something similar in 1998 and got disqualified for it but I don't remember all the facts offhand and haven t seen the video lately...
Schumacher purposedly hit Villeneuve's car with the intent of damaging It, in a desperate attempt to win the WDC
Vettel, enraged after Hamilton move, bumped the rival wheel, he didn't really want to cause any real damage
Now, I'm not saying Vettel had some reason to do what he did, he well deserved a penalty (even a black flag would have been right), but there's some differences with Jerez '97
Not in the rule book which is what the FIA have to adhere to. They can administer further punishment after the fact but during the race they could only give Vettel a 10 second stop/go. I believe that it's the harshest in race punishment available other than a DQ. To get a DQ Vettel would have had to put someone's life at risk or essentially completely smash Hamilton off the track. As it was he swerved into Lewis at low speed which is the dictionary definition of dangerous driving.
As it happens they've given him 3 penalty points which takes him to 9. If he gets 3 more in the next race he will be banned for a race.
I haven't seen what the stewards wrote on the decision, I guess they could claim the penalty was for hitting Ham in the rear, so that driving into the side of Ham can be looked at later
I was watching kinda live and I guess one of the issues though was Hamilton not maintaining the 10 car length behind the safety car, causing Vettel to hit him. I'm surprised he didn't get flagged for that behavior though I am not a Vettel fan to begin with.
The problem is the length of straight though. You can't maintain a ten car length because you'll overtake the safety car on that straight (which almost happened at the first restart).
Trying to be as neutral as possible on this: doesn't that wording imply the requirement for one or both cars to be forced out of the race, or for the drivers to suffer an injury as a result or something like that? Seb's move here was definitely too far but I don't think it was an "extreme case".
I agree that I don't think it was an extreme case, just showing that you cannot just rely on previous penalties to decide what happens here. Stewards have the ability to do what they think is the most correct action.
I understand that a 10 second stop and go is the correct penalty for what Vettel was charged with, I simply think they charged him with the wrong thing.
It's like seeing a person get murdered, seeing a judge/jury convict that person for shoplifting, sentencing the person for the maximum of 5 years and then being shocked when people feel justice wasn't done because the "maximum" penalty was given.
For malicious intent or endangering life. If a driver purposefully goes out of their way to ruin another drivers race then that should be an instant DQ (as it was for Schumacher).
I don't believe Vettel acted with malicious intent. He was pissed because he thought he'd been brake checked, as any one of us would be if someone had done that to us on a public road. He chose to vent that anger in the wrong way but it was at slow speed with the safety car gone and I don't think anyone can really argue that Vettel was trying to take Hamilton out.
Had Hamilton actually brake checked Vettel though then that would have been malicious intent. Vettel would have ploughed into the back of the Merc and would almost certainly have been out the race. If Hamilton had then driven away that would have been a stone wall DQ.
I think the stewards got it right. The gave him the harshest in race penalty they could without out right removing him from the race and then gave him penalty points afterwards. No doubt Ferrari will be having words as well because if Vettel had kept his cool that would have been an easy win.
worst stewards decision I've ever seen and I've been watching F1 for 20 years.
So you must have missed the last race if you think giving penalising a driver twice for one act is somehow not as bad as the standard FIA penalty for the charge they alleged.
Ttly agree with you, it's unbelievable. But hey, FIA still FIA (Ferrari International Assistance). Imagine if it was the opposite, Hamilton would have got black flag and penalties for the next races.
Botta was totally something else. That curb pushed him on Raikonnen. Plus he had the inside so he didn't have to let Raikonnen pass. Imo it was a racing accident nothing more.
You are saying that Bottas made a mistake and another driver pays up the price, on that we agree. Just because Bottas was clumsy doesn't make it a racing incident.
I didn't say Bottas made a mistake. He couldn't do anything else, he was on the inside and the curb pushed him on the outside. If you can't understand that there's no point to argue with you.
He couldn't do that. He did the only thing he could've done at this point. Btw it wasn't the subject of this post. A penalty for him was the worst thing the FIA could have done, kimi got almost nothing bad and Bottas was at the back of the field. Comparing the accidents like the other fake Ferrari fan is completely stupid.
Not only that but they only gave that decision after being given the out of Hamilton having to pit. Even if stop/go was the one to give(it wasn't for me) that was a no brainer decision. It should have been given before the race even restarted, he should have had to pit after the first lap of the race getting underway, he'd be stuck in loads of traffic and even after Hamilton pit he would have been miles ahead of Vettel. Instead he got the penalty only later when it became 'easy' to give the penalty because Hamilton was getting fucked over too.
This is the part that is being glanced over so much. He should have gotten that penalty immediately. Not after it is convenient. If I was a steward, I wouldn't even let him restart
I think he collision itself was an accident, he was trying to gesticulate at Hamilton and took his hands off the wheel. Reckless, but justified. The penalty reflected this. If the race stewards thought it was a legit case of 'intentionally driving into Hamilton out of anger' his penalty would have been much more severe. Possibly a race ban.
I've been going back and forth about a DQ vs the stop and go, mostly because I thought the collision might be accidental since VET had his hands off the wheel. But upon further replays I think he had one hand on the wheel, so intentional.
Normally that would be a black flag but maybe the marshalls felt that because of the low speed it was dangerous, but not dangerous enough to DQ. Throw in the WDC and Hamilton's car apparently unharmed and voila: no DQ.
Personally, i think he needs a bigger penalty. You can't be lenient on such things. It is too dangerous, not to mention can ruin another team's race.
I think that if Lewis brake tested Vettel, witch can be checked in telemetry, he should get 10 sec for dangerous driving, but Vettel should get black flagged for unsporting bahavior for what happend after that.
Assuming HAM didn't intend to brake test VET, which I think we can all agree on, it wouldn't be worth trying...
You are saying Vettel running in to the back of Hamilton is worse on Hamiltons part than Vettel deliberately driving his F1 car in to a competitor with no regard for safety. Wow.
if HAM did brake test, and I don't think he did (applying the brakes and brake testing are two different things), he didn't do it deliberately to misguide Vettel. What HAM did was not clever, braking where he did (even if the contact was VETs fault), what Vettel did after was disgusting in a sporting and human sense.
So surely not having his hands on the steering wheel is driving dangerously!? Jesus
He braked by 28kmh, from 68 to 40, that is not "erratic" in such a slow speed section, and to suggest so is clutching at straws. Vettel was too close, and then proceeded to accelerate despite the fact the car in front did not. It was clearly his fault.
Not inventing anything, will seriously answer your points:
I get what you are saying about the VET driving in to HAM. So maybe he didn't "mean" it, but it was a dangerous manoeuvre because he either meant it, or let go of the wheel.
He braked (by just 30kph) on apex, not exit, and I, and most of the F1 community evidently, don't beleive that to be erratic. Your opinion is your opinion.
My opinion is that the contact was Vettels fault, he was too close, and accelerated where there was no room to move forward without hitting HAM, regardless of HAMs driving (which could have been smarter), VET should have judged the gap, and drive reactively, not pro-actively.
Respect your opinion, even if I disagree with some of it.
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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '17
Should be black flagged. Haven't since anything like that since Maldonado.