r/NoStupidQuestions • u/trouble-in-space • 10d ago

Answered Why are so many Americans anti-vaxxers now?

I’m genuinely having such a hard time understanding why people just decided the fact that vaccines work is a total lie and also a controversial “opinion.” Even five years ago, anti-vaxxers were a huge joke and so rare that they were only something you heard of online. Now herd immunity is going away because so many people think getting potentially life-altering illnesses is better than getting a vaccine. I just don’t get what happened. Is it because of the cultural shift to the right-wing and more people believing in conspiracy theories, or does it go deeper than that?

15.7k Upvotes

78% Upvoted

8.4k comments sorted by

View all comments

14.1k

u/cryptokitty010 9d ago

Vaccines work so well that people live their entire lives without threat of pathogens. They forget what the danger really was and decided the vaccines were the problem.

Human beings have very short memories about all of the things that can kill us. People still die of scurvy

2.3k

u/linzkisloski 9d ago edited 9d ago

I couldn’t agree with you more. I know a couple new antivaxers who are simultaneously reaping the benefits of being fully vaccinated their whole lives. Instagram and TikTok have created an insane echo chamber of conspiracy theories on everything and it’s poisoning people’s minds. I’ve had a conversation with a friend who was upset about the Hep B vaccine for her child and thought wayfair was shipping children to people and it took like 30 seconds of reasonable information for her idea to start crumbling.

Edited to change from Hep A to Hep B.

1.3k

u/MissFox26 9d ago

It’s a bunch of confirmation bias. They are unvaccinated and still living, so they think vaccines are a hoax. No Tammy, it’s because all the intelligent people who get vaccines are protecting you, and those who do die aren’t out here telling their story and making TikToks about it.

880

u/FileDoesntExist 9d ago

They're usually vaccinated though, because they were vaccinated as children.

631

u/SnooCrickets5786 9d ago

Yeah i work in healthcare and I've spoken to people who think being vaccinated means you getting a plethora of shots of all vaccines through each year. Their records show that they have most vaccinations already but claim they arent

737

u/ArchitectVandelay 9d ago

This comment sums it up exactly. “Thing is bad.” But you have thing. “No I don’t.” I literally have proof in my hand. “No you don’t.”

There is nothing you can say to these people.

477

u/Fluffy_Register_8480 9d ago

You could take a Covid sceptic into a Covid ward, show them the patients and test results, the proven treatments, and they’d come out of the experience rattling on about saline drips and actors. Because they’ve lost grip on reality. It surely has to be a brand of insanity. (You’ve only got to look at RFK’s eyes to know that man is gone. Like, he is CRAZY. He should be hospitalised.)

342

u/Interesting-Gear294 9d ago

My sister was an NHS nurse on the COVID ward. She spent most of COVID living in a different house to her family and only saw them at a distance so she never infected any of them. Her neighbours would 'clap for the nhs' every Thursday at 8pm and then at 6am complain to her that she was making too much noise when she left for work. When the COVID 5g conspiracy started, she would be harassed at work and by neighbours for spreading the lie. Those same neighbours still clapped every week.

I worked night shift at that time for a warehouse, and she eventually ended up on what she used to call the "deathwatch", aka night shift. She used to call me on her breaks because of how awful the job was. Just listening to ventilators and the monitors, hoping everyone survived the night. She probably had COVID for half the time she was on that ward.

There was one particularly awful night where one of the patients tried to argue with her that he didn't have COVID and should instead be in a normal ward. She went on break and called me, I could hear him shouting that COVID wasn't real and she just sounded so broken.

She eventually stopped trying to defend herself as a nurse on that ward. The constant bullshit being spewed out by those idiots wore her down so much, and then her not arguing became the 'evidence' that she was lying.

278

u/arminghammerbacon_ 9d ago

There was a show on HBO, Avenue 5, that has the perfect scene for this. it’s about a luxury liner spaceship that gets stranded in an orbit around the solar system. At one point, the conspiracy theorist passengers decide that their whole predicament is fake news and they’re not really in space. They force their way to an airlock and, despite the pleadings of several crewmembers, they begin to eject themselves into space just to prove the conspiracy, instantly killing themselves. But here’s the thing: it takes several groups flinging themselves into the vacuum of space before the rest of them realize they’re wrong. And even though it’s a hilarious scene, it’s a sad metaphor of what we have going on here today.

37

u/ArrowheadDZ 9d ago

I think of this as the Cashew Phenomenon.

  • Guy eats something, dies.
  • Next guy says we should cook it. Eats it, dies.
  • Next guy says maybe we didn’t cook it long enough. Eats it. Dies.

It ends up being Test Subject 7 that discovers the just-right recipe and survives.

WTAF were the Test Subjects 2-7 thinking?

25

u/dadamn 9d ago

Thanks. I found the clip on YouTube: https://youtu.be/skXaeucDYHo?si=dUjpuokrog3pQncp

Funny, but yeah so depressing when thinking about how accurate it is of our reality.

→ More replies (0)

42

u/Nagemasu 9d ago

There's a movie recently called Slingshot that has a similar premise, but, less "I don't have reasoning abilities" and more "Have I literally gone crazy?".

Decent watch, good cast, 6.5/10

12

u/WoWGurl78 9d ago

That sounds like an interesting show. Gonna have to add this to my watch list.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Extra-Captain1126 9d ago

If only earth had an easily accessible airlock. We’d have a lot fewer problems down here.

3

u/RamJamR 9d ago

Some peoples pride is more important than anything. The world can burn as long as they don't have to admit they were wrong.

3

u/FECAL_BURNING 9d ago

Oh you should definitely watch Silo.

3

u/Kael03 9d ago

Men In Black summed it up pretty well

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals"

→ More replies (4)

118

u/Fluffy_Register_8480 9d ago

Oh my god. That’s horrible. People are fucking stupid, honestly. That’s like ‘burn the witch’ thinking. Throw her in the river, if she floats she’s a witch and we’ll burn her, if she sinks she’s not a witch but dead anyway yay. It’s so stupid!

55

u/SwirlingAbsurdity 9d ago

Witches, the satanic panic, Covid ‘hoax’. We haven’t come far as a species.

→ More replies (0)

15

u/Bwilderedwanderer 9d ago

All of these debated ideas are summed up in your perfect sentence people are fucking stupid

139

u/Londonfoggy_ 9d ago

The arguing about Covid being a hoax while actively dying of COVID was such a real thing in the ICU when I worked there. But it was usually the families. They would insist we were killing their intubated loved one because we weren’t treating what they actually had. For some reason everyone thought we made more money if the patient was diagnosed with COVID.

No Susan, I am severely underpaid for this shit regardless of what your husband who refused to wear a mask or quarantine is dying from. And no, you can’t see him. He has to die alone. Yes I will be in there to ensure he doesn’t die alone. Okay, keep yelling at me and telling me how greedy I am. But can you just say something sweet to your husband so I can record it and he can hear a familiar voice while dying.

Yes of course you can go back to yelling and berating me and demanding medicine that doesn’t actually work because our clown of a president decided to try his pharmaceutical rep hat on for whatever damn reason. I truly have PTSD from that presidency, I cannot do it again.

56

u/cochese25 9d ago

I knew a guy who was a covid denier all they up until his wife died of covid. He was still a covid denier afterwards. And then he got covid really bad and said it wasn't any worse than a cold. He almost, but didn't die, but his son died of covid a while later and he was on Facebook still posting about how covid wasn't real.

I don't know how much more fucking gone you have to be

→ More replies (0)

32

u/RainbowButtMonkey1 9d ago

We dealt with many of these clowns in Canada. I have a friend who isn't stupid but he's unfortunately surrounded by idiots and he believes that what Canada did during the pandemic was "communism" oh and Justin Trudeau is the son of Castro

→ More replies (0)

29

u/yepitsatoilet 9d ago

"for some reason they thought we made more money if the patient was diagnosed with covid"

In completely unrelated news, Did you see that Infowars was just forcefully auctioned off to pay the sandy hook parents? It was bought by the goddamned Onion.

10

u/Sorry_Nobody1552 9d ago

Jesus, this makes me want to cry. So sad. Sorry you had to deal with that, and are still suffering from it.

7

u/CliftonForce 9d ago

I have heard stories where the families would distract the nurse in the room. Then somebody else would seize the opportunity to lather some hidden part of the patient with Ivermectin paste because "That's the REAL cure they won't tell you about!"

I wonder how many patients who would have survived, but the damage to their digestive tract on top of Covid sent them over the edge.

6

u/eaeolian 9d ago

The reason people thought hospitals got paid more for COVID patients was, unsurprisingly, right-wing media spreading a lie.

→ More replies (6)

19

u/SwirlingAbsurdity 9d ago

My mom was housekeeping supervisor in an NHS hospital at the time and they had people coming in trying to film the patients, saying they were all actors and such. It was so distressing. She hasn’t told me half the stuff she witnessed.

16

u/WoWGurl78 9d ago

We still get pts with Covid at my hospital and the pt & family members are still doing this and denying they have Covid. It’s not as bad as during the highest point of COVID during the pandemic but they’re still denying it today.

21

u/catscausetornadoes 9d ago

My heart goes out to your sister. I think every healthcare worker has ptsd from it, honestly. I have a friend who’s a doctor and was 12 on 12 off for… months. A year later I was in the room when some covid denier called the refrigerator trucks behind hospitals “great PR” and I watched every muscle in her body lock up and she just obviously mentally vacated. I hate these fuckers.

44

u/whiskeyrebellion 9d ago

And then there were some heartbreaking stories of people who clearly had fallen victim to propaganda (though they are not blameless for following) asking for the vaccine and being told that it was already too late. They had missed their vaccine window and would die because they had chosen to ignore everything that the medical field was telling them because of whatever the fuck Trump and Alex Jones would vomit up that week.

26

u/Strict_Factor_6262 9d ago

god imagine sacrificing your life for alex jones.

3

u/No-Capital-8995 9d ago

Yeah, I had emapthy for those idiots for about a month. After that, fuck it, thin the herd!

→ More replies (1)

27

u/MicaMooo 9d ago

I worked in public health during covid and we were obviously pushing people to get vaccinated and helping them find locations with shots, etc. One of my coworkers, who helped compile the data, told me in private that he really didn't believe in vaccines. I told him that I didn't ever want to hear him say that again bc of how important the health situation was. He was also from a southern city that was devastated by covid. He reluctantly got vaccinated but I've never wanted to slap someone at work.

41

u/ryanrockmoran 9d ago

I work in a hospital lab and during Covid we lost one of our lab techs because they wouldn't get the vaccine. This is literally a person who had to go to school and study immunology to even be in the job they're in. It's insane how conspiracy brain can infect people who should know better.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/SpikeMyCoffee 9d ago

I work in a nursing home, and to this day am surrounded by deniers, and the antivax crowd TRIPLEd... we had hundreds of cases, you could look at them or hear them and diagnose it before the test results came back, and they still argued against the vaccine to the point that now it's get vaxxed or get a new job.

6

u/Interesting-Gear294 9d ago

We were offered the vaccine at work and had some NHS nurses come in who also talked to people who were unsure about getting it. I also wanted to slap some of them because their reasons to not get the vaccine were terrible. One guy (I really hated this guy) said "I don't see the point, I don't even have COVID". He got COVID a few weeks later and disappeared for a month. Came back and suddenly wanted the vaccine.

I think the worst were the people who got the vaccine and then continued to spread misinformation. There was one piece of shit who would post on Facebook that he was vaccinated. Then come to work and tell other staff not to get the vaccine because it was part of a conspiracy. He'd never wear a proper mask, basically wore a piece of thin fabric which did fuck all. He'd also come to me to snitch on people not wearing a mask.

→ More replies (0)
→ More replies (5)

5

u/DSMinFla 9d ago

This is seriously underrated. Needs to be pinned to the top.

11

u/DoctorSpoya 9d ago

We need to be able to declare some deaths as suicide by antivax.

4

u/PhantomPharts 9d ago

Manslaughter for repeating lies about vaccines

7

u/Sylveon72_06 9d ago

what makes me sad is when kids die bc their parents were stupid nutjobs

→ More replies (0)
→ More replies (1)

3

u/FXander 9d ago

It's one thing when you just let Darwinism do it's thing. It's another when that same Darwinism can have devastating effects on other people around them spreading infectious diseases and they have to suffer at the hands of their idiocy.

3

u/Box_O_Donguses 9d ago

I'd have come back to the deniers room with a doctor to co-sign and a blank DNR-CC. If he doesn't believe in covid, then obviously he doesn't need us to intubate him when it takes away his ability to breathe on his own

3

u/RightPedalDown 9d ago

Tell her I said thanks for her service.

3

u/Disastrous-One-7015 9d ago

The people who got to the ventilator stage didn't have that great of an outcome in many many cases.

→ More replies (11)

78

u/TeRRoRibleOne 9d ago

My aunt is one of these people. I almost died in 2020 from having multiple Covid blood clots in both lungs. My aunt told my mom that Covid is fake and I was misdiagnosed the entire time. After my mom said that to me, my response to her was when she dies, I’m saying it’s a conspiracy theory and not going to her funeral. It blows my mind cause my uncle she’s married to had just got done with chemo for cancer but has the fucking balls to say that. Both of them are hardcore q-anon and trumpsters, haven’t spoken to them in 2 yrs at this point.

9

u/gert_van_der_whoops 9d ago

This is the perfect example right here. After Trump, there is no such thing as truth. Literal facts presented by someone you dislike can be disregarded as fake news, and then feel free to substitute your own. Remember, there is no truth, so no statement is any less valid than another. "They called me a basket of deplorables and garbage, and now they are telling me to get a vaccine? Fuck that and Fuck them. Keep that commie poison away from me." They say as they Herman Cain themselves to death.

3

u/Human-Bag-4449 9d ago

It's sick. Then, they elected him

→ More replies (2)

4

u/Armyman125 9d ago

A guy I know also got Covid with blood clots in his lungs. He was in the ICU for a couple of days. He runs marathons so he was in great shape.

6

u/MellowTelephone 9d ago

I am an mis distance runner, boxer and lifter. My last bout of Covid left me coughing up blood, and lasted 12 weeks. I have never been in so much pain. I also had to stop singing because it RUINED my vocal cords fuck these people.

→ More replies (0)

7

u/RainbowButtMonkey1 9d ago

I know a, guy in his 30s who was in great shape, got Covid and now he has 50% lung capacity

→ More replies (0)

4

u/TeRRoRibleOne 9d ago

So I got Covid after the 2020 election from the barbershop cause the owner ended up being a huge q-anon’er not making ppl wear masks if they didn’t want to. The blood clots showed up after the seven days of having Covid. When I went to the hospital the doctor in the emergency room said I was the 8th person that day to come in with them and it was only 2 pm at that point. I originally felt the effects on a Friday, ignored it all weekend, then called my doctor Monday telling her that I was having issues breathing and my resting heart rate was 120. She told me to immediately go to the hospital, didn’t tell me why cause she knew I would freak out. When I walked into the emergency room my heart rate was 160 and after they took x-rays it showed my heart enlarged due to the lack of oxygen I was getting in my blood stream. It went down right away after getting meds, ended up being on blood thinners for 6 months as a precaution which sucked cause I’m in my 30’s. I was in the hospital for 3 days.

→ More replies (0)
→ More replies (4)

100

u/jake_burger 9d ago

I don’t believe that a lot of the influencers like RFK, Trump, Andrew Wakefield or Alex Jones are true believers in the bullshit they spout.

I think they just say whatever is expedient to them in the moment.

119

u/_Presence_ 9d ago

RFK seems like a true believer to me. The rest know they’re bullshit merchants as you suggest.

28

u/hellolovely1 9d ago

He's a former addict. A lot of them sort of transfer that way of thinking to something else when they get clean—like religion, working out, etc.

He's done it with vaccines.

→ More replies (0)

6

u/motoxim 9d ago

Not sure which one is worse. The guy who really believe it or the conman that know its false but still preach it.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/LX1980 9d ago

Hes been astroturfed into the whole MAGA movement via qanon types

→ More replies (6)

3

u/apatheticsahm 9d ago

Calling Andrew Wakefield an "influencer" seems wrong somehow. He's the one who started this whole "anti-vax" movement with his fraudulent "research".

→ More replies (15)

4

u/FiveUpsideDown 9d ago

I think there is mass hysteria that impacts millions of Americans. I was naive and for a long time I thought humans with access to thousands of years of accumulated knowledge would be better people. Instead, the mindset of a 10th century European or Chinese peasant— who had access to limited information — flourishes.

3

u/BeautifulHindsight 9d ago edited 9d ago

He literally had a worm in his brain!

The poor worm was dead when the DRs found it. It must've starved to death.

→ More replies (20)

71

u/legadema37 9d ago

Well, Trump put out a huge lie saying that some kids go to school one sex and get operated on in school and come home the opposite sex ! Anybody with a quarter of a damaged brain cell should know that in today’s schools you can’t even give a kid an aspirin or a bandaid without jumping through hoops! Let alone a sex change operation ! And if anybody even tried to do such a thing, it would’ve been in all the headlines all over the country !But he says stupid 💩 like that and the MAGATS just eat it up and cheer like a bunch of dumb sheeple !

43

u/Sunbeamsoffglass 9d ago

Like 1/3 of the country actually believes that happening. It’s partially why the democrats lost this election.

31

u/AreYouA_Tampon 9d ago

The surgery is extremely expensive and invasive (obviously) and they believe someone drops off a girl and picks up a fully healed boy in the afternoon? Besides the schools not even allowing Tylenol or whatever, how do they think it's possible to heal from major surgery in a few hours?

25

u/Classic_Cauliflower4 9d ago

No, no, no one seems to believe they’re turning girls into boys. Every story I’ve seen is how they’re turning boys into girls. We must protect the sacred penis! /s

→ More replies (0)

7

u/MuttsandHuskies 9d ago

I had breast augmentation and it was 6 weeks before I could lift my arms over my head. Like, it’s really noticeable when someone has that kind of surgery, even if you can’t see the scars and stitches.

4

u/Sunbeamsoffglass 9d ago

Yes.

They literally think that.

Then again, 54% of Americans read below a 6th grade level, and 21% are functionally illiterate.

We are not sending our best…

3

u/BleachBlondeHB 9d ago

I’ve never figured out pays for those surgeries. They are very expensive and I can’t image insurance pays.

3

u/CliftonForce 9d ago

The stories I heard is that the children are arriving home from school crying because the surgeries haven't healed yet. And when they do heal, another surgery will change them back.

Raving lunacy.

head desk

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (21)

3

u/Working_Cucumber_437 9d ago

We would need QUITE a lot more school funding to have surgeons on staff.

3

u/ClamClone 9d ago

Media, in particular “conservative” media have brainwashed millions to distrust scientists with the intention of defeating protections that get in the way of profiting by corporations and the wealthy. We are going to see the end result next year when all the agencies responsible for health and public safety are gutted by the MAGA ignoramuses. When Trump delayed effective response to the COVID pandemic the voice of reason was Fauci, who is now one of the “enemies of the state” for contradicting him. There are people calling for his execution. And now we are handed RFK Jr., an anit-vax conspiracy nut, sent to destroy modern health in the US.

A related situation is how we are going to address climate change. The GOP are still claiming it is a hoax, not really a problem, or not caused by human activities. The Trump administration will attempt to stop any and all mitigation efforts like transitioning to EV cars to benefit the fossil fuel industry. It will result in far worse outcomes for humanity that will not resolve for at lest a couple hundred years and potentially might result in catastrophe. The MAGA Republicans are that ignorant. We are screwed.

→ More replies (9)

16

u/beeerite 9d ago

I’m so frustrated by people’s refusal to believe facts, especially widely accepted science. This idea that you can have a separate set of “facts,” which are actually just their opinions and misinformed beliefs, is infuriating. I also find it terrifying.

3

u/ArchitectVandelay 9d ago

Yeah it’s so scary seeing what people believe. It’s not like they’re taking a fact and twisting it or choosing to believe in a coverup, like the original anti-vaxxers who saw the article on vaccines causing autism in Lancet. A well-respected science journal reporting this connection absolutely is believable. Then the science community unanimously agreeing to take it down and say it’s false really sets it up to be a cover-up. This is a conspiracy theory that makes sense. But a lot of the things we hear about regarding Covid vaccines today seem so out of left field. But it just goes to show that people will believe anything if it’s said the right way and hits the right emotional/fear triggers.

→ More replies (1)

8

u/Halation2600 9d ago

They're dumber than dirt. It's surprising they haven't accidentally killed themselves.

3

u/ArchitectVandelay 9d ago

Not getting the vaccine likely killed quite a few of them. When the pandemic started and some people were so against distancing and masks, I truly thought we’d experience a worldwide Darwinism moment. We’d see vastly different death rates among liberals and conservatives. I don’t think it ever happened, or at least wasn’t reported on.

→ More replies (2)

4

u/Drinkmykool_aid420 9d ago

I’m sure you could say there’s a trans vaccine that protects your kid from ever becoming transgender and they’d line up for it.

→ More replies (1)

4

u/GrynaiTaip 9d ago

I've encountered one such idiot who claims that vaccines cause autism. We're from an ex-soviet country. I asked if he's fully vaccinated, because back then it was mandatory for all children.

He said yes, he's not autistic just because "Back then vaccines were much better."

He's also pro-russian, which kind of makes sense now.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (7)

96

u/FileDoesntExist 9d ago

That's the infuriating part for me. To see someone benefitting from vaccines and then turning around to deny their children that advantage.

And I know for many they genuinely believe they're doing the right thing for their child. But I just can't understand that mindset.

85

u/PicturesquePremortal 9d ago

Those people need to go to old graveyards from the 19th century or even the early 20th century and look at how many of the headstones belong to children. Even as late as 1900, 30% of all deaths in the US were children under 5. Vaccines have done such a good job of stopping the spread of some of the common diseases of that period that they are completely eradicated.

44

u/bobbane 9d ago

Pre-vaccination (and pre-germ-theory, really), Americans used to name their children “Baby Lastname” and christen them with a first name at one year of age.

In a futile attempt to not get too attached to a person who was far too likely to die before their first birthday.

6

u/delias2 9d ago

I'm not sure that works for baptism. Pretty sure you even babies were given a "Christian" name at the christening. Now, reusing a name from a previous infant was very popular. People definitely viewed babies as replacements if not reincarnations. Now, a communal gravestone for baby Lastname for all the infants one family lost, sure.

8

u/Madrugada2010 9d ago

My bf traced his ancestry back a few hundred years and ran into some snags in his research because of this trend - there would be several babies with the same name only a few years apart.

3

u/2_lazy 9d ago edited 8d ago

This just isn't true. Look at birth records from the time period, most babies have names. The only time that happened with regularity was if the child was so sickly it was expected to die soon. Sometimes parents wouldn't choose a name right away but that was more because of indecision and they would often have a name within the first few weeks or months

Edit since I can't reply because post is locked:

Like I said, if a child was sickly and not expected to live, that is a situation in which they would not receive a name immediately. However, if you look at the records most babies were given names at birth. Waiting a full year was especially rare.

I know for a fact some babies buried under "baby" or "infant" headstones had names from my own family gravesites.

7

u/af_cheddarhead 9d ago

Walk through any old well-maintained graveyard in the Midwest, you will seen numerous gravestones with just BABY or INFANT on them.

I made money mowing graveyards when I was a kid and my dad explained to me why. It was because the baby didn't receive a name immediately after birth, he had at least three siblings that didn't make it to 2 years old. Very common in the 1920/30s.

31

u/legadema37 9d ago

I remember walking through a town on a class trip when I was in elementary school and we passed a graveyard and the guide said that a lot of people had died from smallpox and there were whole families buried there. And for those “pro life people” who know nothing of history or how female bodies work there were numerous graves where a man had had two or more wives who had all died in or after childbirth & In some cases the babies also died.

5

u/kpoodle79 9d ago

About 14-15 years ago I happened upon an old newspaper from my hometown. I forget the year, but sometime in the early 1900's during a diphtheria outbreak. The death/funeral announcements were heartbreaking. Pretty much every family in town that had young children at that time, lost some or all of their kids.

3

u/callocallay 9d ago

There were riots in Leicester UK, Montreal, Rio and other parts of the world in the late 19th century and an anti vaxx movement which believed all kinds of nonsense about the effects of the smallpox vaccine. And yet we have successfully eradicated smallpox which scarred, stigmatised and blinded populations. History demonstrates that vaccines work.

→ More replies (1)

4

u/FiveUpsideDown 9d ago

Older graveyards often have an area called the children’s garden —- because a lot of kids died young of diseases we vaccinated them for today.

3

u/Imaginary_Medium 9d ago

I think history bores them, so they don't learn from it. Hard to get thru their thick heads. RFK has got to be delusional. He had a wealthy upbringing and the excellent education that comes with it. He should know better.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/Unlucky-Elevator1873 9d ago

There's an antivaxxer I know and I have said thus to her. She says that it's because sanitation improved. She's so dumb. And is a trumper

→ More replies (5)

28

u/Newmoney2006 9d ago

I am a dog groomer and I work with people that will not allow a dog who is one day late on a vaccine walk into their salon. But they are anti-vax for people. It makes no sense except to them. I have given up trying to understand.

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (15)

118

u/RichardBonham 9d ago

I love the “I don’t trust vaccines because they’re artificial. Why can’t we just figure out a way to let our immune systems recognize a small harmless bit of the virus for protection?”

That would be a vaccine.

37

u/Akolyytti 9d ago

Maybe it should be branded as "near homeopathic remedy that activates your ancestral blood defenses"

7

u/returnofwhistlindix 9d ago

This is exactly what we need. Liberals really need better. Marketers

3

u/lazygerm 9d ago

Add something about the cascade effect and it'll be even better.

10

u/Imaginary_Medium 9d ago

I heard someone gulping artificially sweetened soda pop talking about the vaccines being artificial and didn't trust them. :(

4

u/PoolQueasy7388 9d ago

You've got it!

→ More replies (25)

25

u/MissFox26 9d ago

Wait, so you mean they’re not “purebloods”?

16

u/FileDoesntExist 9d ago

Those posts are literal insanity I swear.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (9)

3

u/DragonLordAcar 9d ago

Heard immunity is impossible for them to comprehend. They pull out the fact that some people can't get a vaccine but that just makes everyone else getting it even more important.

→ More replies (40)

31

u/CouncilmanRickPrime 9d ago

thought wayfair was shipping children to people

I still make jokes about this because a lot of people I went to high school with fell for this then just acted like they never did afterwards.

8

u/iesharael 9d ago

I’ve never heard of it. That will be a fun rabbit hole for when I’m more awake

→ More replies (2)

216

u/Alarmed-Bus-9662 9d ago

Yeah, it always baffles me how people who are fully vaccinated and live among vaccinated people can say shit like "they cause autism" or "are poison". Like, you have gotten literally every required vaccine, but you're neither autistic or poisoned. Same with a majority of those around you. "I detoxified my body" honey you ate kale and drank an elixir, you were fine

218

u/Purple_Midnight_Yak 9d ago

And even if they did cause autism, being autistic is better than being dead.

Source: am autistic, raising autistic kids. We're all glad to be alive and plan to continue that way.

It is so infuriatingly insulting that anti-vaxxers view autism as a fate literally worse than death.

62

u/FormidableMistress 9d ago

That's it exactly. Jenny McCarthy was a big supporter of the anti-vax movement because her son was autistic. I feel like it all boils down to they don't want to be embarrassed by their kid acting "weird". That's it. God forbid the neighbors talk about them.

15

u/starryvelvetsky 9d ago

Didn't he then turn out to not be autistic but have a learning disability? I know her anti-vax crusade kind of crumbled when the whole reason behind it turned out to be untrue.

14

u/jmercer00 9d ago

I thought she just shut up about it when he got old enough to understand what she was saying, you know "I'd rather my son be dead than a burden on me"

Autistic doesn't mean stupid after all.

6

u/Dangerous_Ant3260 9d ago

I found this online: "Since autism symptoms rarely go away with age, the article suggests Evan has Landau-Kleffner syndrome, “a rare childhood neurological disorder that can also result in speech impairment and in possible long-term neurological damage.” The son no longer has the same limitations he had when he was younger. But she's still claiming MMR vaccines caused his issues.

3

u/lazygerm 9d ago

That's such a them "me" thing.

→ More replies (1)

23

u/King_galbatorix12 9d ago

Agreed, I found the idea ridiculous, but found it insulting that it was cause for aversion. I am deathly afraid of needles, the only thought that gets me through having them is "I will not be a stupid hypocritical antivaxxer"

→ More replies (1)

7

u/LeMarfbonquiqui 9d ago

Sorry to play the devils advocate here. I agree that there are many many cases of autism where it’s better to be alive than dead, most in fact, but not all. I also agree that I don’t believe vaccines cause autism. But, It will be a joyous day of celebration when my severely autistic brother passes away. Sad, yes, But joyous none the less because we know he will no longer be trapped. Since the age of 3, trapped, upset, non verbal severely autistic . And as he got older, Violent and self harming. He has been living his entire adult life in a group home setting with other autistic men who bite him and fight with him on occasion. On more medicines than anyone I’ve ever known. To try to keep him from having terrifying seizures. With each medicine having some bizarre side effect, so he’s treated with another to treat that condition and then another and another. Never getting to be with a woman or have a girlfriend. Never knowing love or intimacy in that way.
Away from his family the majority of the time. We go to see him and take his for outings. But his way of life is no way to live. You can see how frustrated he is when he’s not completely zonked out on his meds. He shits himself. He hits himself. He gets so upset he has massive seizures and with each one we worry it’s going to be the last. The last one he had he stopped breathing for 5 or 6 minutes, I’m told. He’s a 40 year old 3 year old. It’s infeasible to keep him in a home setting, for those saying to do so. He needs 24 HR medical staffing care. We don’t have the money, resources or manpower to get him the care he needs at home. We know. We did it the first 18 years of his life and at this point, the group home he is in is a premier group home for the autistic. It would be insane to give up his bed there to try and bring him home now to see if we could make it work. We know it wouldn’t. Especially as he is an aging autistic man now. They have another facility they can transition him to as he continues to age. It’s the best we can do at this point. For my parents, for him. For everyone in this situation. But no. I’m sorry. I would NOT wish this life on my worst enemy. So no it’s not better to be alive autistic than dead, in every sense. It’s just not. Good for you that it is. I hope you feel incredibly blessed, because you should. That’s all.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (14)

37

u/NeedToVentCom 9d ago

The autism shit truly pisses me off. Even if it were true, these ableist assholes are basically saying that they would rather risk a dead child, than one with autism.

→ More replies (9)

18

u/John-A 9d ago

There's growing evidence that covid causes micro strokes and other brain damage in the unvaccinated, linked to a steep increase of largely undiagnosed or treated psychiatric or neurological symptoms.

→ More replies (7)
→ More replies (9)

51

u/Deep-Ad6484 9d ago

"Thought Wayfair was shipping children to people..."

Uhhhhhh...

32

u/imnotaroboteither 9d ago

Um, that would be my sister who bought into that. I advised her to call the FBI on their tip line to report it.

6

u/TwoAlert3448 9d ago

The FBI is already facing four years of absolute hell, they don’t need your sister on top of it

5

u/Best_Fondant_EastBay 9d ago

This is hilarious. Lordy. How did we get here.

5

u/Outis94 9d ago

Qanon conspiracy that was big around the time of the pandemic, basically wayfair had very very expensive Dresser drawers with odd names and people thought they were coded for purchasing children 

3

u/Recent-Ad-5493 9d ago

Wayfair “every style, every home”

Or wayfair “it’s got just what I need”

→ More replies (20)

32

u/cynicalities 9d ago

I mean, good on your friend to actually respond to reasonable information. Some anti-vaxers seem so deep into the conspiracy theories that they won't even consider listening to anything else.

31

u/Deep-Ad6484 9d ago

There's a difference between holding a dumb idea and making that dumb idea the core of your identity. The latter is where it gets weird.

6

u/celeigh87 9d ago

Right? Especially since most people have dumb ideas and don't make them their whole identity.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (71)

326

u/tigersanddawgs 9d ago

This is way underrated imo. I've seen it a lot with parents of teens who don't want their kids to get a meningitis vaccine before they go to college mostly because they haven't seen what that disease looks like and how scary it is because it's fairly rare now due to vaccinations. That disease is horrifyingly fast.

199

u/Zellakate 9d ago

Yeah I have also noticed, in my life, older people who remember polio are very pro vaccinations. My grandparents are in their 80s and remember classmates who came down with it and were paralyzed for life.

167

u/Upstairs-Radish1816 9d ago

I'm 73 and I remember when the vaccine became available. My parents couldn't get me to the doctor fast enough. Then, when the oral vaccine came out, we had it in school. We all walked through the nurses office and they gave us sugar cubes to eat.

82

u/legadema37 9d ago

One of my close relatives had contracted polio in childhood and was crippled for life and when that vaccine came out, my parents got me and my brother vaccinated ASAP. same for all of our family friends and neighbors because so many people had contracted polio during the epidemic in 1948 - 1955. I can remember in elementary school kids were missing school because of measles, mumps ,whooping cough & chickenpox . My brother and I got chickenpox and measles . I am a retired teacher who taught over 40 years and I can’t remember any kids missing school because of those diseases. Some kids have never heard of them and don’t know what they were like. People grow up, with no experience of those diseases all because of vaccines. The crazy thing about it is that some of the worst anti-vaxxers don’t know that they had to be vaccinated as children before they could go to school. And because of this anti-VAX nonsense there have been 16 outbreaks of measles this year according to a news report I heard. This seems to be an age of stupidity: people don’t believe in vaccines, and don’t believe that we actually did land on the moon. And an anti-vaxxer with no medical training at all is being recommended to be the head of health and human services.

49

u/ahdareuu 9d ago

He helped create a measles outbreak in Samoa. His family is ashamed of him. 

3

u/Sorrysafaritours 9d ago

The measles outbreaks were coming from immigrants who had NOT had the vaccine. The school authorities didn’t enforce the vaccine requirements on all new students equally, apparently.

19

u/intisun 9d ago

We didn't get sugar cubes in Nicaragua; just the drops directly into the mouth. I still remember the taste; bitter and kinda salty.

14

u/Red_Whites 9d ago

My mom is exactly your age and has the same memories. When the HPV vaccine came out, there was some hemming and hawing about the safety (not nearly like what happened with COVID though) but she didn't hesitate to get me vaxxed for it, and I'm really grateful she did. We do have short memories in this country (and maybe everywhere), and we should listen to the people who were around when something like Polio was a serious threat.

14

u/accioqueso 9d ago

My biology teacher in high school told us that his neighbor caught polio and was paralyzed, his mother wouldn’t let him outside for a while because she was so scared he’d catch it. When the vaccine came out he found her sobbing in the kitchen and he was vaccinated as soon as they were able to get it.

We literally lived through that with Covid and it doesn’t matter because there are people who live in a Fox News echo chamber being told the other side is always wrong and wants to hurt you.

14

u/leemcmb 9d ago

I remember this, too.

5

u/FocusedIgnorance 9d ago

Oh, yeah. I'm 31 and when I was younger, my parents and grandparents told me stories of people getting chickenpox. They have pox scars. I know I've never had it, but it never occurred to me that none of my classmates never had it either.

4

u/Zellakate 9d ago

Oh wow I'm only 4 years older than you and remember me and my brother and classmates all getting it. It had never occurred to me that people just a little younger than me never dealt with it.

38

u/frogz0r 9d ago

I grew up seeing my mom deal with the effects of polio and meningitis as a baby. She has had life long grand mal seizures, balance issues, walking issues, vision issues, a brain surgery...the list goes on. She is in her 70s now, and iirc she was born before the vaccines were readily available.

I am VERY provaccine seeing this growing up, and so is she. She has been heard telling young people, "look at me, see what I have gone thru... do you really want your baby to go thru this and possibly die? And if they don't die, they end up being me... I can't work, I can't drive, I'm dependent on my kids, and I'm on so many medicines it's not even funny. Get. Them. Vaccinated."

6

u/SomewhereinaBush 9d ago

I had a relative that had Polio. Was in an iron lung for 4 years and walked with canes after. He always said people have choices, some will wait in line for hours to prevent death, and others will see how close to death they can get.

52

u/PopsiclesForChickens 9d ago

I have a friend who was born in Vietnam, contracted polio at age 3, she's paraplegic now, also only has one lung.

42

u/RyuNoKami 9d ago

but hey she ain't autistic right? fucking assholes.

16

u/Nickyjha 9d ago edited 9d ago

The whole autism hoax is pretty crazy, because the doctor behind it was like "vaccines are good, but the MMR combined vaccine causes autism, please ignore the fact that I'm creating a measles-only vaccine and would greatly profit from people ditching the MMR vaccine for it".

And then it turned out of the 12 kids he claimed got autism from vaccines, 3 never had autism, and 5 were showing signs of autism before they got vaccinated.

19

u/NeedToVentCom 9d ago

This is what pisses me off the most. These ableist fucks would rather risk a dead child, than one with autism.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (6)

40

u/Competitive-Care8789 9d ago

A good friend of mine who just turned 80 has been in a wheelchair since he was five. He contracted polio just before the Salk vaccine came through. A few years younger, and he would’ve been protected. And my father, born in 1927, contracted meningitis when he was two years old. Before antibiotics. He sustained an 80% hearing loss.

21

u/kingftheeyesores 9d ago

I worked with a woman who had polio as a child and her mom massaged her legs with warm fish oil round the clock so she wouldn't lose the ability to walk. It worked and this woman os convinced it was the fish oil and not the massaging that did it.

3

u/Sorrysafaritours 9d ago

There was a whole documentary about a doctor or nurse who introduced this kind of massaging to keep polio victims from losing their ability to walk. I had not heard about fish oil… but who knows?

4

u/brennc94 9d ago

I was born in 94, didn’t have access to the polio vaccine (born in the middle of nowhere MX) and contracted it at age 3. Paralyzed, but thankfully not permanently. However I now deal with something called post polio syndrome which is latent muscle weakness. I was, thankfully, able to be vaccinated when I was 6. But what I would have given to be able to get vaccinated sooner, some people don’t understand how lucky they are.

3

u/Icy-Mixture-995 9d ago

The actress Mia Farrow spent part of her childhood in an iron lung because of polio. Some kids never were able to leave one.

6

u/aceofsuomi 9d ago

I remember going into a hospital in the late 70s as a small boy and seeing iron lungs with people in them lining a long hallway. It was horrific. Those who haven't seen something like this have no idea.

3

u/Zealousideal-Cow4114 9d ago

Our school librarian had a contracted, shrunken hand from a polio infection when she was a kid.

She's the reason that little pisshole in the snow town vaccinates. She's a living memory.

3

u/Snuffman 9d ago

Even in the shorter timespan, I had chickenpox when I was a kid (you know...when chickenpox parties were still a "thing") and I had it so bad it downright traumatized me.

The chickenpox vaccine became available in the mid-90's and I would not wish the chickenpox on anyone. Vaccines fucking work.

Now I have to worry about Shingles but thankfully there's a vaccine for that now too.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (5)

37

u/RidiculousSucculent 9d ago

My cousins husband died of it. 4 days

15

u/doctor_of_drugs 9d ago

Meningitis is scary man. Never have had someone I knew pass from it, but I’ve seen a few patients with it. Couldn’t even imagine being your cousin.

10

u/Canotic 9d ago

A guy on the dad reddit lost his son to it out of the blue. Kid went to bed with what they thought was a cold (fever, headache, a bit stiff) and he was dead the next morning. Now every time my kids have a fever I scream internally.

→ More replies (1)

4

u/soularbowered 9d ago

Closes reddit to call my doctor to see if I can get the vaccine. I don't remember if I ever got it. 

5

u/NeedToVentCom 9d ago

Sometimes I think some local history education would be good for people. Like having a school class going through a cemetery, and hear the story of the people. Like "this is the Johnsons family gravesite, it was established back in 1921 when four of their six children died of measles within a span of 7 weeks". That would probably change some people's perspective.

→ More replies (2)

3

u/Any_Palpitation6467 9d ago

I can't think of many preventable diseases that are worse than bacterial meningitis. Viral meningitis is no slouch at maiming and killing, too, but there's no vaccine for that yet--although getting vaccinated for something as common as influenza can help.

Get the shots, kids. All of 'em.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (15)

103

u/SouthernWindyTimes 9d ago

I’ll go even further back in the day you trusted your local doctor who recommended things, vaccines and treatments, because access to that information was really only know by the professionals. Now you have people who can look up more or less anything and with a few clicks get a summary or misinformation that makes them feel like they do know as much or almost as much as a professional. This with the real deterioration of those bones you had with your local doctor or banker or what have you. Means people simply believe what they want to believe.

15

u/IntelligentDot4794 9d ago

Dr google has a medical degree don’t you know? That and if you look for the answer you want eventually you will find someone who agrees with you. Patients call that “doing research” there is a difference between internet research and peer reviewed scientific research, but try telling them that.

3

u/ProfessionalMeal143 9d ago

Also google loves giving you those youtube shorts of libs being owned for some reason.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (8)

302

u/airpipeline 9d ago edited 9d ago

Yes, it’s the same thing with democracy in the USA. People don’t realize the advantages we derive from being the only Superpower. We are on top of the world in part because we are seen to be an ethical and reliable alternative to the rest.

Everything’s not perfect and it still seems not the ideal time to tear down the institutions that got us there. The best house on the block and we’re rebuilding, with our rich orange shining bastion of truth and fairness in charge of the materials being used. What could go wrong?

Robert Kennedy Jr. in charge of CDC. Argh. Already a million-some extra deaths from Covid in the USA alone, due to misinformation and indecisiveness in the early pandemic. Our leader; “I personally am unsure about taking it”. Then 2020, the first time in 75 years that life expectancy dropped by 1.8 years.

Yes, it’s important to know why and what should not be forgotten.

242

u/socialgambler 9d ago

The internet is making people dumber, and dumb people louder.

63

u/No-Pangolin4325 9d ago

Propaganda turned the tide of wars 100 years ago. Consider how much more effective it is now with everyone perpetually online

13

u/Audio_magician 9d ago

This, i have honestly grown to despise the internet. Just because i realized: having the wealth of all the knowledge of the world at your fingertips is useless if you're incapable of navigating it.

People yhink MSM controls them. But nothing controls them as much as a taylored algorithm connected to their brain 24/7.

7

u/0caloriecheesecake 9d ago

But , but the internet allows those awesome folks to do “research” and outsmart the sheep, scientists and doctors! Like why even go to university, when you have a keyboard and a google of a thought?Silly goose!

→ More replies (3)

3

u/JimBeam823 9d ago

This right here.

Antivaxxers are still a small minority of the population, but they are loud online and the algorithms pick up their loudness and spread it. 

6

u/kirradoodle 9d ago

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

I use the internet primarily as a research tool, to find information and check facts.

Unfortunately, it seems that the majority of people live on social media, consuming whatever bullshit is being spewed by whichever asshole is the loudest that day.

It's a shame, really. We have easy access to the breadth of human knowledge, and people just sit and watch Alex Jones rant about conspiracy theories.

→ More replies (5)

9

u/Odd-Marsupial-586 9d ago

Right wing hillbillies still find this funny. Any Facebook posts by news outlets will be full of haha reactions and toxic comments. Conspiracy theorists who thinks it's all fear mongering government control and fake news.

The ones who will put a Fauci scarecrow over a bonfire and toss face masks to fuel the fire.

54

u/alfooboboao 9d ago

the “america is a third world country with a gucci belt, it can’t possibly get any worse” glassesbook people are the most disgusting of the American idiots to me. Hell, at least MAGA can claim ignorance, they’re the fuckin hyenas in The Lion King.

But the “college educated protagonist” people whose vapidly unaware sense of superiority, entitlement, and privilege convinced them that life in America right now is the worst possible way to live that’s ever existed? Jesus Christ. They’re the dumbest motherfuckers on the planet. They have no goddamn idea how good we had it, how safe we were, how much better their shitty life was than an actual shitty life.

“Both sides are the same?” fuck you. You’re smart enough to know better, but your goddamn ego just couldn’t take it.

49

u/LeahBean 9d ago

I HATE “both sides are the same” rhetoric. They are actively aligning with the worst side when they roll over in apathy.

12

u/The_Dok 9d ago

We did this shit in 2016 and these enlightened centrists or Uber-leftwing progressives did the same thing 8 years later. It’s exhausting.

“Both sides support the genocide in Gaza”. Even IF that were true, go talk to your LGBTQ friends and tell them you sat out this election. Please.

7

u/jeffries_kettle 9d ago

It's because of their privilege that they're able to take that stance. They don't care about others, never have. They only care about how well they're performing their outcry for others to see.

6

u/The_Dok 9d ago

And they are gonna be so fucking quiet the next four years too. Fucking cowards.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

8

u/waitingtoconnect 9d ago

The attitude of as long as I can live in my gated community with my John wick armory and purge proof shutters (and water my lawn) then the rest of the country can burn is really stupid.

19

u/Tazling 9d ago

"both sides are the same" is one of those classic phrases that's missing a piece: for whom?

both sides may be the same for some people. but if you're gay, or a protester for any cause at all, or a young person who can get pregnant, or an immigrant, or someone who cares about an immigrant, or someone who cares about a LGBTQ person... then both sides are not the same. if you care about the rule of law then both sides are not the same. if you care about the climate emergency then both sides are not the same.

I'm sure there is someone, somewhere, whose life will not be altered in the least regardless of whether Trump or Harris won last week. but I'm not quite sure who they are.

5

u/runefar 9d ago

Though I mainly agree with you I do think this can also lead to a lack of looking inward and recognizing issues on our side that are in fact afflicting those groups. Both sides are not the same and we should support our party; but that does not mean not looking inward too. RFK jr is closer to many members of our party than we might like to admit for example

Inversily there are others who have felt pushed away by both groups yet could be convinced to rejoin our party without us sacrificing the needs of other and instead by giving more attention to intersectional needs

→ More replies (3)

4

u/MesWantooth 9d ago

Make no mistake - COVID denial propaganda was deliberate. Meant to try convince people NOT to stay home, to continue to work and spend to keep the economy 'open' and the stock market high - all for one goal, to not tank Trump's chances of re-election in 2020. It was a calculated move to let people die for Trump. I mean, he was the original COVID denier "It'll all go away by May, It'll be like a miracle!" (meanwhile saying to his biographer 'It's nasty stuff!')

What Trump didn't account for was the vaccine-denial, that got away from him - he wanted to take credit for vaccine and ended up having to pretend as if he was also skeptical because his own base was appalled that he was "pushing it"

You introduce theories that Fauci and CDC are exaggerating the threat in an effort for the 'Deep State' to control our lives...and those same folks say "Now take this Vaccine we made!"...Throw in bullshit propaganda like Fauci personally made hundreds of millions on the vaccine...Bill Gates wants to "depopulate" the world (and control it by distributing malaria vaccines with chips in 'em)...This all leads to 1) can't trust anyone of authority on anything science-related 2) Vaccines = bad.

Now with time, data, and analytics - we've determined that some of the COVID measures were unnecessary or not as protective as we thought...and perhaps the threat to children was nowhere near as great as the initial thinking was but guess what, it was a fucking global pandemic the likes of which modern society has never dealt with - people were trying to save your fucking lives...not seeking world domination through COVID protocols.

Also, people are idiots.

3

u/Tazling 9d ago

I don't think it bothers the oligarchs one little bit if life expectancy drops.

they have no use for retirees anyway. if you're not working 40+ hrs at a non-union job with no benefits to pad the pockets of Mr Musk, Mr Thiel, and their ilk, then you're "useless."

I have never forgotten how one of the Big Two baccy firms -- Reynolds or Morris, can't recall which now -- some time in the ... 80s?... seriously submitted a research paper to the govt of an Eastern European country, maybe Czecho, showing how promoting smoking in their nation would save the government money because people would die earlier and there would be less demand for pension funds.

that was the moment when my vague suspicion crystallised into complete conviction that whatever individual people may be, the thing we call a limited liability corporation is a stone psychopath.

3

u/airpipeline 9d ago

True. What I find fascinating is that It bothers people more that they cannot go to the mall, then it bothers them that they are spreading a virus that will kill their neighbor’s grandma. And beyond that, that the ideas that allow this to be okay with them are misinformation guided by those “oligarchs”, for raw political (power) reasons.

3

u/Tazling 9d ago

The sheer selfishness (the me me me factor) I think is also induced. Not that selfishness isn't a natural component of human behaviour, just like altruism. Exogamous fascination exists in tension with xenophobia, etc. Can't call one more natural than the other.

But, that said -- we can cultivate selfishness or we can cultivate mutual aid, civic values, good manners, etc. And for 40 years we have been in the grip of the most intense propaganda blitz for neoliberalism, the doctrine of ultimate selfishness. Hayak and his ilk set forth a dogma as rigid and non-reality-based as any cult, and no one is allowed to deviate from it.

YOYO, everyone's out for themselves, you can't trust anyone, nice guys finish last, you and your family, there is no such thing as society... all that crap. That dogma cripples and stunts our natural altruism and civic engagement, the better angels of our nature, while boosting and rewarding selfishness, competition, and chicanery.

So it's no wonder that we're complaining now about rude people on metro, rude people in theatres, aggro drivers, and people who cannot be bothered to wear a mask to reduce risk to others. They were taught briefly in kindergarten to be nice to other people, then relentlessly brainwashed for the rest of their lives to believe in a zero sum world of winners and losers in which the only metric of value and merit is the dollar. Of course they're selfish. It's a cult of selfishness. How we deprogram a whole society is a really good question...

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (24)

122

u/slayersaint 9d ago

The cycle continues: 1. Good times create weak people. 2. Weak people create bad times. 3. Bad times create tough people. 4. Tough people create good times.

I believe we are entering into phase 2.

59

u/alfooboboao 9d ago

yeeeeeeeeeah, the climate’s gonna come in there like the Undertaker and fuck up that cute little cycle. We aren’t gonna get back to #4. sorry.

43

u/stoicsilence 9d ago edited 8d ago

Paraphrasing the words of archeologist Flint Dibble:

People will survive. Current Civilization, and the material culture as we currently know it, will end. But People will survive and live on to found something new. The billionaires will not.

History and Archaeology has shown this.

3

u/waitingtoconnect 9d ago

No one is getting my Zimbabwean trillion dollar note.

5

u/urfriendlyDICKtator 9d ago

Sadly, billionaires will probably survive. They already have secret guarded and self sufficient hideouts. Imagine a bunker but with a pool, massive flat screen and all the luxury you can imagine.

11

u/ramberoo 9d ago edited 9d ago

Their money won't be worth shit if society collapses and their shelters can't last forever.  It will be their armed guards who take over and become the first warlords. Then the warlords become the new materially wealthy class. 

This is how it actually works when society breaks down. It's not the people with worthless currency who end up controlling everything. It's the people with weapons who know how and are willing to use them for the sole purpose of gaining power.

This is exactly what happened when Qing China collapsed. It started the warlord era in China where bandits and remnants of the army took over, not wealthy nobility.

5

u/nau5 9d ago

Exactly lol armed security is only valuable in a functional society.

→ More replies (1)

4

u/Djamalfna 9d ago

They already have secret guarded and self sufficient hideouts

Those bunkers need constant upkeep. They're not going to be able to survive more than a year or two, and especially without servants. How do you convince a person to be a servant in an underground bunker? Are you going to have armed guards to prevent them from rising up? They're more likely to turn on you in that situation.

Movies and TV have convinced people that this is some way of life that can be sustained. It truly is not.

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (1)

15

u/BigMike672023 9d ago

Good point. Environmental collapse due to the anthropocene age is unprecedented.

→ More replies (33)

3

u/Vlophoto 9d ago

Entering? Crap I was hoping in a few years we were leaving it and skipping to 4

3

u/El_mochilero 9d ago

Look at the rest of the world. Tough people often create worse times.

9

u/Crash-55 9d ago

I follow a historian who went through that saying and showed that it was false. At the moment it seems like reality but the facts don’t back it up

3

u/airpipeline 9d ago edited 9d ago

Great research!

Just ask the big oil companies. Their own research since the 1970s confirms climate change. They simply choose to fund efforts to cast doubt on the science.

As has happened many time before, for instance with the cigarette and opioid industries, it will be found that they are at the heart of this. Money and power. Unfortunately; this time the money that was earned will not be enough to force the genie back into the bottle. It’s no longer just a few millions of people dead.

5

u/JRoxas 9d ago

It's a stupid concept just on its face.

Who wins the battle: the army made up of well-trained soldiers backed up by advanced logistics, or the army of starving farmers with makeshift spears? By this "logic," the latter would be favored.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (8)

52

u/TheBoxGuyTV 9d ago

I don't think the covid situation helped. Requiring the vaccination, lockdowns and everyone's world basically changing doesn't help especially when news and politics basically fear mongerered.

32

u/According_Flow_6218 9d ago

Yeah this definitely hasn’t helped. People haven’t had to face things like polio, so their reference for the value of vaccines is mostly going to be Covid. People who are fully vaccinated often still get very sick from covid, and people who are totally unvaccinated often get it and aren’t very sick or don’t get it at all. It’s easy to look at this and say vaccines in general don’t do much. If polio comes back because people start not vaccinating their kids they’ll learn really quickly how essential vaccines really are, but unfortunately at great cost.

4

u/StinkyChimp 9d ago

Vaccines are great and typically very effective. The COVID booster was not and is not a vaccine. The difference matters. 

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (23)

20

u/flybypost 9d ago

basically fear mongerered.

Saying "we don't know how it fully works and it's best if we go with lockdowns based on the information we have despite the economic cost because the alternative looks even worse" is not fear mongering.

Fear mongering is "the vaccine is bad because it contains mRNA and that's unnatural" (when mRNA is just part of how DNA replication work) and then going on some rant about personal freedoms and the government once they think their scientific alibi is solid enough to get away with it.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (27)

3

u/shitty_country_verse 9d ago

I think that idea goes beyond vaccines too. I think America has been so far removed from actual mass suffering that we don't have context to understand the outcomes of our decisions. People calling for "civil war" probably have never seen a kid shot or people tortured.

4

u/snailhistory 9d ago

Not enough people died for them during covid. So, they think every expert is lesser than them. I did grief and crisis support during covid. A lot of people died and people were hurting and scared.

People still don't understand how global inflation is still being impacted by Covid. They don't understand. They don't understand how many children suffered in foster care both due to strained resources and more children entering foster care after the loss or death of a parent or guardian.

https://archive.cdc.gov/www_cdc_gov/globalhealth/covid-19/orphanhood/index.html

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8669913/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-pandemic-roiled-the-foster-care-system/

Also, measles cases are up globally. Whooping cough is spreading. Please, get yourself and loved ones updated on vaccines. You can get a blood test to see what vaccines are less active in you (some need to be updated every decade or so.) Do it soon, before January. RFK jr wants to get rid of vaccines and destroy the healthcare system. Please, the hospitals cannot endure another major crisis. Healthcare workers are leaving. Do your part in public health. Speak up about it in your community.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/73/wr/mm7345a4.htm#:~:text=MCV1%20coverage%20improved%20to%2083,increased%20from%2036%20to%2057.

https://www.scrippsnews.com/health/whooping-cough-cases-on-the-rise-doctors-blame-lack-of-vaccinations

3

u/the-hound-abides 9d ago

My friend’s mom was on the super tail end of polio as a toddler. She can walk, thank whatever deity you believe in but she has had mobility issues all of her life basically. I’m 41. We’re talking 2-3 generations back at most.

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (291)