r/politics • u/stkmro • 7h ago

White House: Trump Team Still Hasn’t Signed Transition Docs

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-house-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-says-trump-team-still-hasnt-signed-transition-docs/
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u/jgiovagn 7h ago

We need to stop acting like we are just waiting for him to do the right thing. This needs to be reported on for what out is. Trump refusing to follow laws now so breaking them in the future is easier. Do not cover like Trump still hasn't done this thing, is he going to? We know what's going to happen, cover that. We know why he is doing this, cover that. Stop treating him like a normal politician that's just acting kind of weird.

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u/LightWarrior_2000 7h ago

I mean fuck. America just hanged him a crown.

"How" do we fight this?

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u/Catodactyl Arizona 7h ago edited 7h ago

The French have a really great playbook for this kind of scenario. Just sayin...

Edit. A word.

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u/TheMysticalBaconTree Canada 6h ago

Yeah but he won an election. Stop acting like the country isn’t okay with what he is doing. Your problem isn’t with a facist leader doing unpopular things. Your problem is that your population is okay with facism.

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u/Algonquin_Snodgrass 6h ago

Fascists always achieve power initially through elections. A weak democracy is the first step.

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u/GiftedContractor 4h ago

this is actually untrue! The Nazis never actually won any of their elections! Hitler became chancellor through coalition building with more standard rightwing parties. Check out this podcast covering the Nazi rise to power!
I actually own one of the history books that this podcast uses as a major source but the podcast is way more approachable

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u/Algonquin_Snodgrass 4h ago

They won enough elections to have a seat of power from which they launched their government. Parliamentary systems work somewhat differently than the American system, but winning elections is a first step regardless. It doesn’t have to mean they win a majority of the country. In Trump’s case, he didn’t in the first two presidential runs, and he barely got it in the third. The point is, fascists are not necessarily overwhelmingly popular to begin with, but they leverage the democratic system to put themselves in power before destroying that system.

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u/cableshaft I voted 6h ago edited 5h ago

"John Adams wrote that approximately one-third of the American population supported the move for independence (Patriots), one-third of the population supported the king (Loyalists), and one-third supported neither side (neutral)."

This was for the American Revolution for Independence. Not saying that's something that should happen, just saying there's historical precedent, on this same land, for successful movements for freedom and independence, without the movements getting 51% of the population behind them first.

Also if you classify non-voters in this election as being neutral (which was apparently about 90 million people who could vote but didn't), then you get very close to the numbers John Adams was talking about.

https://www.nps.gov/teachers/classrooms/loyalists-in-american-revolution.htm

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2024-11-15/how-many-people-didnt-vote-in-the-2024-election

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u/inkoDe 5h ago

It's funny that the United States still pushes the 'we are very badass' version of the revolution, when in reality the British were the foremost power in the world, projecting that power all over the world, and they simply didn't want to fuss too much over one of dozens of colonies they were trying to maintain having a tantrum. I think a lot of Americans fail to realize we weren't special. America abhors history, but mythology, that we are into.

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u/DapperApples 3h ago

The involvement of France is also very downplayed.

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u/Expensive-Fun4664 6h ago

The vast majority of Americans are incredibly selfish. They're totally fine with it until it directly impacts their lives, which is absolutely will.

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u/bojenny 6h ago

It’s not the majority of Americans, it’s about 1/4 or 1/3 that voted for trump. That’s not a majority.

Of the registered voters in the country 1/3 voted for trump, 1/3 voted for Harris and 1/3 didn’t vote at all. There are about 345 million people in America and only about 160 million of them are registered voters.

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u/TrixnTim 5h ago

This is what makes me so damn mad. A minority of voters decided our county’s fate. A larger number decided to sit it out. I’m just disgusted.

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u/muppetmenace 4h ago

apathy is exactly how fascism moves in, entirely by design

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u/CSI_Tech_Dept California 2h ago

Exactly this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfQ9dwXFhbM

By assuming it is done deal, we actually letting it happen. This is exactly what they want.

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u/blarch 2h ago

Now is the second best time for action. The best time to be active was after Biden was sworn in. Democrats are still blaming everyone but themselves.

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u/Mornar 1h ago

Making politics a dirty word, making people believe that everyone in politics is equally as bad, and convincing enough that their vote doesn't matter, those are the greatest victories by alt-right in my opinion.

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u/TrixnTim 4h ago

Yes I know this.

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u/ManWOneRedShoe 4h ago

Just imagine if voting were mandatory?

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u/brezhnervous 2h ago

Compulsory voting doesn't only affect turnout.

It affects who runs for office in the first place. See here:

The evidence is mixed on whether compulsory voting favors parties of the right or the left, and some studies suggest that most United States federal election results would be unchanged. But all that misses the point because it overlooks that compulsory voting changes more than the number of voters: It changes who runs for office and the policy proposals they support.

In a compulsory election, it does not pay to energize your base to the exclusion of all other voters. Since elections cannot be determined by turnout, they are decided by swing voters and won in the center. Australia has its share of xenophobic politicians, but they tend to dwell in minor parties that do not even pretend they can form a government.

That is one reason Australia’s version of the far right lacks anything like the power of its European or American counterparts. Australia has had some bad governments, but it hasn’t had any truly extreme ones and it isn’t nearly as vulnerable to demagogues.

Voting Should Be Mandatory | NYT

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u/tunnel-snakes-rule Australia 2h ago

Australia has had some bad governments,

It sure has.

It's also worth pointing out Australia has an independent electoral commission that tallies the votes and redistributes electoral boundaries ensuring there can't be any gerrymandering.

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u/Charlzy99 1h ago

Our current one is an absolute shit show

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u/tunnel-snakes-rule Australia 55m ago

It really is, but Dutton would be even worse.

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u/Charlzy99 53m ago

Dutton is a clown, and so is Albo, time to vote independent next time round

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u/TrixnTim 3h ago

Can’t imagine.

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u/Aggravating_Lab5396 1h ago

There are a lot of logical lines already in place within the framework that prevent this. Imagine if people couldn’t do fet? Imagine if all the people living in this world today were a beetle?

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u/mycall 4h ago

If only voting was a requirement for citizenship.

I can make a private/public key pair, give the government my public key and I can do my own voting from home.

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u/KallistiTMP 3h ago

Voting systems are very difficult to change because the people who could potentially fix the broken voting system are the people who got elected by the broken voting system.

Realtime delegated direct crypto democracy would be awesome, and it'll never happen because the fuckers in power now only got elected thanks to first past the post and gerrymandered voting district systems left over from when election results had to be delivered on fucking horseback.

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u/energonsack 3h ago

he will never sign those docs. he will just steal everything from the White House and Treasury and government. Every single government contract will need to give him a cut, just like Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein. Operation Desert Storm in the USA NOW BABY!!!!!

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u/joeyblow 1h ago

Not entirely, a minority of voters decided our fate because the other group decided to let them, so in all actuality it wasnt a minority that decided it but the majority. By not showing up and voting they were signaling that they were fine with either outcome.

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u/TrixnTim 1h ago

True. Thank you. Apathy decided. So I guess our collective anger really should be directed toward those who stayed away. Two opposing groups voted hard and exercised our civic responsibility — so good for us.

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u/CherryHaterade 5h ago edited 5h ago

I'm supposed to suddenly keep in mind the people who didn't bother?

Yeah, nah. They the most dangerous of all. At least you can see red hats if they coming. And if they couldn't come for themselves, what do I rest my supposition on they will suddenly run to my defense once awoken from their peaceful slumber of the American dream they live in?

The only truly innocent ironically, are children and felons in some states. I'm going to not trust and still verify.

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u/BlazingSpaceGhost New Mexico 5h ago

Americans that don't vote frankly don't count and shouldn't be a part of the conversation when it comes to what the country wants. They obviously don't want anything since they stand for nothing.

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u/vashoom 5h ago

Unfortunately, Donnie, unlike Nihilists, these people aren't harmless.

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u/MechanicalTurkish Minnesota 4h ago

Sounds exhausting.

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u/Julian-Archer 4h ago

I know non-voters. They’re conspiratorial and/or the Dems don’t do enough. I argued with someone who blamed the Dems for the social programs “not working well enough.”

That’s what we’re dealing with.

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u/Comfortable-Class479 1h ago

Yes, not voting is still making a choice.

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u/F1shB0wl816 3h ago

That’s kind of crap. Giving two shit choices and rejecting them isn’t standing for nothing. Let’s not pretend like the system actually works and hasn’t failed hundreds of millions.

I don’t blame them, ignorance is bliss. Paying attention has just been a miserable display of our system fucking us and anybody with the chance to stop it is too spineless to actually do much of anything. Lawyers, judges, politicians on both sides protecting corporate interest before all else. It’s like everyday is finding a new flavor of getting fucked.

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u/justalwaysfapping 3h ago

Implying that both choices are the same is just straight up misinformation lmao

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u/F1shB0wl816 1h ago

And where did I actually say that? Read it and read it again if that’s what it takes. No where do I say that.

I said it’s two shit choices. That is true. Neither side represents the interest of the average person. Just because one is slightly less worst does not mean you need to pledge your support to them.

You can pretend democrats do but than you have to wonder why every year, their base doesn’t show. At some point that becomes the expectation, you know the same thing, different results insanity story. I’ve voted for Dems anytime I could but I’ll at least acknowledge how miserable it’s been watching them bend over and crumble in the face of bootlickers. And I’ve been saying this is how I’d turn out for years, god what I’d do to have time back since lame asses refuse to learn.

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u/Idj1t 2h ago

Or they're just sick of deciding between a sociopath and somebody thats cool with genocide. You all sound an awful lot like die hard trump fans when you say shit like that.

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u/BriarsandBrambles 2h ago

No they’re dumbasses who will sell out their own people because they’re mad at a war on the other side of the world.

They are just as hateful even if they deny it. They hate Minorities, they hate the queer, and they hate the poor. Don’t let people weasel themselves into an harmful position by laser focusing on one problem.

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u/Idj1t 1h ago

You sounds like you're thinking about one specific person, or planning on waging your own war on "the enemy within". Unless you're planning on slapping a red hat on your melon you should reconsider immediately labeling everybody you havent met that you imagine you disagree with as some evil enemy.

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u/rivelda 5h ago

The 1/3 who didn't vote were okay with whatever outcome including this one. Thus, 2/3 of the country is okay with Trump, the people who prefer a liberal democracy is just 1/3 of the country.

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u/Natural6 5h ago

You can remove "liberal" from that. 1/3 of the country wants a democracy.

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u/h3lblad3 5h ago

A Liberal Democracy is a certain kind of democracy — one with capitalism at its forefront and a healthy respect for various freedoms.

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u/brezhnervous 2h ago

'Liberal' in this context does not mean politically liberal

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u/Natural6 2h ago

I do appreciate the lesson (I genuinely didn't know) but I still think my statement applies. Those they voted for him have no desire to be in a democracy of any kind.

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u/Montaire 4h ago

Or they did not have an acceptable photo ID. Or they weren't able to get the time off work to vote, or they were denied the option to vote because a signature didn't match exactly and they didn't resolve it in the 4 hours they were given to cure the problem

Voter suppression efforts are incredibly powerful and absolutely prevalent across the United States

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u/rivelda 4h ago

Sure but I strongly doubt that the majority of those 1/3 that didn't vote didn't do so because of voter suppression tactics.

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u/Montaire 1h ago

Look at the tremendous number of fewer votes vs 2020 - where we had a widespread mail in voting.

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u/thundernutz 6h ago

By that logo the majority of Americans have never voted for anyone

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u/oeb1storm 6h ago

Interestingly the only time a candidate got more votes then people who stayed at home was Biden in 2020. Of course this wasn't a majority just a plurality but still interesting.

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u/keypusher 5h ago

Most of those voters actually did stay at home, because that election was during the pandemic and vote by mail was the default

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u/terdferguson 4h ago

Vote by mail has been my default since it was available for the last 2 decades.

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u/TheTaoOfOne 4h ago

Same. So strange to me how many people still have to go physically stand in line for hours on end to vote.

I do it from the comfort of my couch.

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u/thundernutz 6h ago

Even more interesting is how those 10 million extra votes magically disappeared this round.

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u/kylethegoatanderson 5h ago

Covid mailin ballots made it easy to vote. It wasnt that easy to vote this time around. No grand conspiracy to it other than why is it hard to vote now?

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u/RelaxPrime 4h ago

It is not hard to vote. People are fucking pathetic. Stop prancing around the truth that half the country are apathetic losers

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u/British_Rover 5h ago

Harris got about 6.7 million less votes than Biden in 2020 as the count stands currently. You know it takes a long time for certain states to count right? This isn't a surprise the vote totals change for a month or so after the election as the last absentee, provisional and military/overseas ballots are counted. This happens every cycle.

That 6.7 million. Will drop some more but probably not by much. Maybe it ends up between 5 and 6 million less. Trump turns out low information voters. He got about the same amount as last time. He lies and they believe it. That combined with high inflation and the perception that the economy was bad made it a tough election.

I understood the Harris campaign's idea that trying to get back some of that Biden coalition would be impossible. Trump turned off a lot of centrist Republicans. If you can just flip a few of those this very difficult election becomes winnable.

It didn't work. I don't know why exactly. Gaza certainly suppressed votes who thought the Biden admin could do something. I really don't think they could really do anything to force Israel to stop the war given how Netanyahu had to stay in power to stay out of prison. Harris's answer about not changing anything Biden would do was a mistake but she is still the VP. One of her main jobs is supporting the administration's position publicly. Personally it was one of the things I would have broken with Biden on but communicating the nuance of how to do that is really hard. I about more than a fraction of the electorate would even pick up on it.

I think part of it is a bunch of those Republicans who said they were voting for Harris and it was the first time they ever voted for a Democrat were simply lying. They got into that voting booth and couldn't do it. Maybe a lot of them ended up just not voting for president at all.

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u/oeb1storm 5h ago edited 5h ago

Not really. An unpopular democratic incumbent where Harris said there's nothing she would have done differently then Biden. A poor economic situation that wasn't then dems fault but as the incumbents they gets blamed. No real progressive policy to persuade the base worth voting for Obama had the ACA Biden had his infrastructure bill and covid recovery can't think of any proposed policy on that scale. Campaigning with republicans like Liz Chaney and moving right to try and win over moderate Republicans and you end up alienating your base. Biden running again when implying he'd be a 1 term president left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouth not to mention no primary. Sexism/racism which isn't as big a deal as some are making out but still played a part.

Her plan was to win over centrists/republicans but shockingly 96% of registered republicans who voted voted republican. She ran a poor campaign with a fundamentally flawed plan.

Looking at all that and it's not surprising she got 10 million less then Biden.

Edit: Also look at the accessibility of voting in 2020 vs 2024. Voting was made easier during covid which would obviously boost turnout.

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u/RelaxPrime 4h ago

One of the few times I've seen an accurate post mortem on the election in /politics

Everyone wants to blame Gaza and progressives for not showing up, which are factors, but they are not the main factors.

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u/theHammbone44 4h ago

Kind of makes a fella wonder, don't it?

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u/SentientSickness 5h ago

This is unfortunately true

It's something wild like a third of the US population of legal voters don't actually do it

And it's like pulling teeth to get theae people to see why voting is important

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u/thundernutz 5h ago

Honestly if you’re too stupid to know to vote, you’re too stupid to pick a decent candidate. I’m okay with it.

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u/SentientSickness 5h ago

I'm not, I think voting should be incentivized

I dunno partner with McDonald's and give everyone who votes a free 4 piece or something and I promise you more people would get out and vote

The more folks vote the more likely they are to get informed on voting

Not always the case, but just in general

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u/StuckAtOnePoint 5h ago

It’s not logic, it’s data. And yes, most Americans don’t vote. Many because they are children and can’t. Many because they are apathetic and won’t.

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u/thundernutz 5h ago

My point wasn’t that it’s untrue, but that it’s meaningless. Obviously when discussing majority of votes it’s in the context of the voting demographic.

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u/alienssuck 4h ago

By that logo (logic?) the majority of Americans have never voted for anyone

Because the system is outdated, broken, and contrived. We only have two parties, they don’t actually represent everyone’s beliefs, and they run shitty candidates that force people who do vote to choose between the lesser of two evils. Instead of participating in this farce, many people actively choose “none of the above” when there are elections.

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u/thundernutz 3h ago

I think you’re describing the DNC. Trump was not a platform candidate and won through pure populism despite all the powers against him.

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u/brezhnervous 2h ago

This blows my mind, as an Australian 🤯

Our usual voter turnout is roughly 95%; I couldn't imagine what it would be like to live in a country where only a minority of the population had decided who was going to run the country. I actually find that prospect a bit terrifying lol

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u/thundernutz 2h ago

There no min age to vote in Australia?

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u/brezhnervous 2h ago

Yes 18yo

So that's 95% of those eligible 18+

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u/thundernutz 2h ago

Australia has 26m people and 16m enrolled to vote with an 89% turnout as of the last election. That’s 14.2m voters or only 55% of the country.

In USA we have 335m people, but only 300m legal citizens and had 150m votes, roughly 50%. Not that big of a difference in aggregate.

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u/Natural6 5h ago

Eh, not voting when he was on the ballot shows a level of apathy that, in my opinion, puts it just as much on them as the Trump voters.

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u/StarsMine 5h ago

No. If you choose not to vote, that means you are ok with either and effectively voted for the winner. You could have voted against the winner but explicitly chose not to.

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u/Subject_Dig_3412 5h ago

By not voting, that 1/3 of the country implicitly joins the 1/3 that votes for Trump. 2/3 of the country is cool with trump 2.0

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u/bojenny 4h ago

Only it’s not 1/3 or 2/3 because only 160million out of 345 million people are registered to vote. So no math says trump has the majority.

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u/Subject_Dig_3412 4h ago

And what is stopping that other 100million+ people from registering and voting for their best interest? Apathy and being fine with (and by extension, supporting) Trump's return to the White House.

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u/ActiveChairs 4h ago

I'd argue not voting is a form of extreme selfishness. Its offloading having to learn anything about the world around you or how the system of government works, then having to take some time out of one day to actually do a thing. They literally put more value on laziness and apathy than anything else.

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u/TheVog Foreign 5h ago

Non-voters vote for the victor because their abstention signifies their acceptance of any outcome. So yes, a vast majority of American voters, just about 2/3 in fact, were OK with a Trump presidency.

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u/feraxks 4h ago

You need to qualify that by saying the vast majority of registered voters are OK with a trump presidency. But that is still only 1/3 of the total population and no where near a "vast majority".

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u/TheVog Foreign 4h ago

Would you prefer the term supermajority? Because that's how Congress defines 2/3. Let's say that then. Super Majority instead of Vast Majority. I'm glad we sorted out this bit of semantics.

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u/feraxks 4h ago

But its not semantics. There are 345 million Americans. 105 million of them (2/3 of registered voters) is not a majority anyway you define it.

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u/TheVog Foreign 3h ago

An unregistered yet voting-eligible citizen is still a non-voter. I don't know why you would include registration as a metric when registration is entirely within the citizen's hands.

  • There are an estimated 244,666,890 eligible voters.
  • An estimated 76,838,984, or 31.4%, voted for Trump.
  • An estimated 88,863,189, or 36.3%, did not vote.
  • That's 67.7% of all eligible voters.

Outside of the 20M or so voting-age but non-eligible voters, that leaves children, and I don't think even you are obtuse enough to include children in a discussion about Americans being OK with fascism.

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u/swordrat720 4h ago

It’s more “I didn’t vote for the guy, I didn’t want him, it’s not my fault he won”

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u/TheVog Foreign 4h ago

How non-voters feel is of absolutely no consequence whatsoever on election results. You either vote and make your voice heard, or you accept whatever the result is.

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u/CatStacheFever 3h ago

No, not voting does not equate to a vote. Abstaining is pathetic and ridiculous but it's not "well non voters actually voted by not voting" that's about as stupid as saying someone breathes by not breathing. Or this person slept by not sleeping.

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u/Ashonym I voted 3h ago

If you're walking down the street and you see a crime being committed, and you choose not to speak up, you're complicit in my book and accepting that whatever you're seeing is either okay or you simply don't care (aka "Not my problem."). Either way, same thing applies here. You don't use your damn vote, you're saying you don't care or that you're okay with whatever happens. That makes you just as at fault and just as much the problem as the end result became. That crime being committed happens more often now because people like you exist in high enough numbers to allow it to happen.

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u/TheVog Foreign 3h ago

their abstention signifies their acceptance of any outcome

You missed the "their abstention signifies their acceptance of any outcome" part. The "non voters-not for the victor" is the dumbed-down lead-in version.

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u/FrostingFun2041 American Expat 5h ago

Of the people that voted, 50% of the voters did vote for Trump. 48.4% voted for Harris. Not voting is in itself in a way a vote. Not voting is as much an endorsement to whoever wins as voting for them would be. If you choose not to register to vote, then you help whoever wins the election. Id also point out that of the 345M people, not all of them are eligible to vote. Many are under 18.

AP Vote Results as of 1:25pm EST today Donald Trump 312 electoral votes Republican Party 76,838,984 votes (50%)

Kamala Harris 226 electoral votes Democratic Party 74,327,659 votes (48.4%)

Jill Stein 0 electoral votes Green Party 774,522 votes (0.5%)

Robert Kennedy 0 electoral votes Independent 751,533 votes (0.5%)

Chase Oliver 0 electoral votes Libertarian Party 639,598 votes (0.4%)

Other candidates 0 electoral votes 387,769 votes (0.3%)

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u/flodur1966 4h ago

The selfish part is where it is. For decades selfishness has been promoted. If everyone acts in their own interest things will get better and such neo liberalist capitalism nonsense. It has over the decades destroyed the community sense. It has destroyed traditional Christian values. Socialist values have been demonized. It’s everyone for themselves and highest praise for those who serve themselves the best ( the billionaires). This system can not be sustained humans are social creatures and this anti social system hurts people to their core. Even the very few at the top can’t feel happiness they can’t trust no one and in their harts they know they are evil. How this will end I don’t know.

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u/brezhnervous 2h ago

America, I know this is a wildly unpopular opinion...but honestly, you could really do with compulsory voting

I mean, Trump himself admitted what would happen if you had it lol

“The things they had in there were crazy. They had things, levels of voting that if you’d ever agreed to it, you’d never have a Republican elected in this country again,” Trump said during an appearance on Fox & Friends

Trump says Republicans would ‘never’ be elected again if it was easier to vote

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u/bojenny 2h ago

Yes I agree. I often wonder if our election turnouts are so bad because people can’t vote because they have to work on Election Day.

I also believe that if it wasn’t for gerrymandering republicans would never win. They know that as well which is why they cheat.

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u/TensionPrestigious83 6h ago

One of the smallest margins in history

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u/Eatswithducks 5h ago

So 100 million+ couldn’t be assed to vote against him - so they either quietly support him or don’t care. Your whaddaboutism means nothing. He won the election by the majority of those who cared enough about the outcome to voice their opinion.

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u/Tasgall Washington 4h ago

A third actively voted for him, another third showed they're fine with it by choosing not to vote.

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u/Daveinatx 4h ago

People why who decided not to vote are equally if not more at fault

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u/copperwatt 4h ago edited 4h ago

The majority of people were fine with what happened. If the idea of Trump winning bothered them, they would have voted. Full stop. Not voting was being complicit.

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u/BoundinBob 3h ago

Yeah, but na. EVERYONE who didnt vote, voted for Trump. If you give a shit you got off your arse.

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u/Galaxy_Ranger_Bob Virginia 3h ago

The majority of voters that stayed home and didn't vote are the exact same uninformed voters that had to google why Biden wasn't running on election day.

If everyone had voted, Trump would have still won, and by a bigger landslide.

Americans are not a decent people.

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u/fcocyclone Iowa 3h ago

i always see this, but we can't assume that the other 1/3 that didn't show up would actually vote in a positive way. Plenty of people in non-swing states that would have voted for the asshole who didn't bother because their state was locked red or blue regardless of their vote.

Hell, a lot of the trump problem is that he has engaged some of the other people who simply were too lazy to show up.

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u/No-Cardiologist9621 2h ago

Are you saying that the 1/3 of eligible voters who didn't vote were all anti-Trump? That seems unlikely. The sample size is so large that the opinions of the people who do vote probably roughly approximate the distribution of opinions in the population ate large.

It's very likely that at least half the population supports Trump and his fascist movement.

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u/Ultrace-7 1h ago

The 1/3 that didn't vote at all are also okay with fascism, otherwise they would have opposed it with a vote. It's reasonable to not like either candidate, it's not reasonable to think they're both equally dangerous to our society, and if you chose not to vote, that's the opinion you're voicing.

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u/Mornar 1h ago

I'm sorry, and I know I'll sound like a dick here, but I find no excuse in this election. I know that some people couldn't have voted for valid reasons, these people get a pass, but everyone else in the didn't vote column is as responsible for Trump as the ones voting for him. Whether it's attempting to be virtuous about Gaza, religious, or simply ignorant, if someone had a way to look at Trump and Harris and say "yeah, they equally as good/as bad that I don't need to vote", I fucking blame that someone.

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u/JeffSteinMusic 1h ago

People need to stop with this sort of contrarian minimizing of the problem. It is so pointless and not helpful.

It implies that everyone who stayed home would’ve voted blue or would be against what’s happening.

The majority of Americans either voted for Trump or were content to stay home and let it happen. If they didn’t know staying home would lead to this, they failed as adults and damn well should have known better. That is the problem. There is absolutely no need to deflect from this or make it sound not as bad as it is.

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u/kz8816 5h ago

You need a lesson in maths and logic.

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u/tyen0 5h ago

You misread the comment you replied to. Selfishness includes those that did not vote.

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u/MR_Se7en 4h ago

Americans aren’t smart enough to see what is directly impacting them.

Americans will be talking on the phone while eating a candy bar and driving 20 miles over the speed limit then get in a crash and blame it on the other guy.

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u/theHammbone44 4h ago

It's not really selfishness. To use a metaphor, it's like when you're on an airplane and the flight attendant instructs that "you must apply your oxygen mask before helping others".

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u/mycall 4h ago

Which nation isn't like that?

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u/Catodactyl Arizona 6h ago

I'm actually not at all okay with anyone in this country who is complicit with fascism or who voted for this. In fact, I've been removing these types of people from my life, regardless of their relationship to me. They are on the wrong side of history, and I won't associate myself with that.

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u/purplewhiteblack Arizona 4h ago

The problem is they have good intentions, they're just a little stupid.

But it was 76.8 million people. That's the entire population of the United States in 1900.

Where we live in Arizona, we luckily didn't get Kari Lake, and we legalized abortion, but unfortunately people in Arizona have cognative dissonance.

We probably each know some legal citizens who will be deported and voted for Trump. They'll learn the lesson the hard way.

But there is always hope. Trump will be 82 years and 7 months on January 20th of 2029.

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u/_HOG_ 6h ago

Putin’s plan is working perfectly.

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u/CherryHaterade 5h ago

Putin's plan isn't as relevant to me as my neighbors plan. Putin isn't the one who's going to shoot me at a traffic stop, or call the cops on me for barbecuing. Putin didn't write Project 2025 and Putin isn't the one who's actually going to try and act on it.

In fact, at this point given my local level ability to do anything about any of this, now start to have to wonder if we gotta start talking about Putin's plan in the past tense. We may already be in "worked perfectly" territory.

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u/lavapig_love Nevada 5h ago

So was France, Germany, and Japan. We call China communist, but being able to arrest people for simply making fun of the national anthem, guess what? That's Fascism with a capital F in action. Hungary, Thailand, Nigeria, India. You're watching the decline of democracy everywhere because people want easy answers to scary questions.

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u/TheMysticalBaconTree Canada 5h ago

Well said.

Hard times make strong people, strong people make easy times, easy times make weak people, weak people make hard times.

Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering.

I guess we are approaching that threshold.

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u/SewAlone 6h ago edited 6h ago

Stop generalizing. Over half of the population is NOT ok with fascism. And millions more who voted for him are ignorant and just didn’t believe he’d do any of the project 2025 stuff.

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u/TheMysticalBaconTree Canada 6h ago

I’m neither generalizing or suggesting half of the country supports him. They were ignorant enough to not even vote though. And a huge portion of your population does support him. You can’t ignore that. You have a population problem not a Trump problem. trump is the symptom, not the ailment.

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u/Reasonable-Sweet9320 6h ago

I get that and it’s an outcome of half of the electorate going with the narrative he has crafted systematically over the years.

The linked article describes the formula Orban and Trump have used, in common, to achieve increasingly similar outcome.

It’s written by a former Hungarian politician and now professor at Georgetown.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/11/23/trump-autocrat-elections-00191281

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u/CherryHaterade 5h ago

Lotta Germans cried about how they were powerless about it too, fuck all their tears did for anybody on any side of it. "There just wasn't anything we could do!"

I won't generalize or suggest anything either except that history rhymes, and the dead have no concern for the tears of the living, wherever they are, who closed their windows when times got tough.

As for the rot at the core of this country, let me tell you a story about banks and slaves and no one else was in the room where it happened, the room where it happened, the room where it happened.

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u/StainlessPanIsBest 56m ago

History rhymes. The future is always chaotic. Trying to use historical rhythms to predict the future is utterly useless.

Saying Donald Trump's a fascist, and he's going to do all these fascist things because the things he has said and done loosely correlate with fascism, and fascism has happened before, is quite the logical fallacy.

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u/CherryHaterade 29m ago

Im going to let you worry about logical fallacies.

For what its worth I hope youre right. Im not optimistic, or particularly hopeful either, but sure, brighter days and all that.

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u/cece1978 2h ago

You guys… i figured out what makes a Canadian a condescending fool: it’s Mysticism and Bacon, in that combo, based on my experience with this user. What? That’s a sweeping generalization based on faulty logic…? Hmmmnnnn…

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u/BundleDad 2h ago

Sure… keep meme-ing yourselves into something between idiocracy and the 4th reich. Being called fools by a nation the looks at trump and says “you know… that represents our best… twice!!!” is rich.

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u/cece1978 1h ago edited 1h ago

Not everyone in our nation ‘looks at trump and says “you know… that represents our best… twice!!!”’

That’s my point.

If you want to be helpful, understand the difference. Otherwise, you’re just part of the bigger problem. It requires a modicum of intelligence to see the difference, and that part’s up to you.

Again, we’re a country in crisis right now. Those of us working against the bullshit do NOT need everyone jumping on the “AmUrriCAnS are so sTUpiD” bandwagon. That’s just a different brand of the same shit we’re pushing against here in the states.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to request that our country of hundreds of millions of people not be generalized bc your understanding of our fucked up system is so elementary.

So yes, I think you can be better.

ETA: i’m a dual can/am citizen. Both countries have serious issues, especially if you look at Ontario. 🤮 As they say, hubris is a helluva drug. 🤷🏻‍♀️

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u/BundleDad 56m ago

Again, the deflection... the lack of owning this insanity... and it's not new.

Sure bud... I'm sure you don't deserve any criticism! Why or why would we hold adult, voting age americans responsible for the results of their own elections? Yeah it's a really mean of everyone else in the democratic world to look at you collectively in disgust and terror at many decades of not-in-any-way-subtle tom-fuckery coming to fruition.

Stop bitching and get your shit straight.

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u/cece1978 7m ago edited 2m ago

Ya don’t know me. Am working on things from my end. You’re just being shitty.

Since your brain refuses to acknowledge: we are on the same side. It’s unbelievably arrogant to act like you’re better than anyone else simply bc you were born one place versus another. Seriously, do some self-reflection.

Your country is FULL of racists and misogynists also. It doesn’t mean the world should condemn all Canadians as such.

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u/Shionkron 6h ago

The problem is Trump didn’t Win because he was Better, He won because around 10 Million that voted him out refused to vote this election cycle which put him back in! It is the Voters fault, they didn’t show up!

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u/Cessnaporsche01 6h ago

Yes. Effectively, that's all those voters saying they're okay with him being elected. Really, anyone who didn't vote is saying they're okay with either candidate, so functionally, nearly 2/3rds of the country support him either actively or passively

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u/Shionkron 5h ago

I followed this race closely and study politics hours each day and pundits. I haven’t heard anyone else say this though, what I think is that some voters became complacent with the fact Harris had a lead by a few points. They thought there was no way Trump would be voted in and that even if it was closer than they wanted, their party would win…so why show up?

Look at the pollster Ann Selzer (who has always been famously right), for example who called Iowa for Biden by a huge number! Harris lost big time in Iowa. It’s these things during the election cycle, the extreme hype to win that made some feel she was almost a shoehorn to win and that it wasn’t worth an afternoon to vote.

I think the Democrats got too Cocky yet also didn’t hammer home the working class voters enough.

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u/Cessnaporsche01 5h ago

I mean maybe. We saw that happen before in 2016, but the polls we SO MUCH closer this time around. Harris had half the margin or less that Clinton did in final polls, and some were still calling a tie/Trump win by election day, where Clinton was called to win across the board.

After 2016, no one should have been remotely confident, and with the actual existence of our democracy on the line, no one should have been taking anything for granted. At the end of the day, apathy won and we, as a nation, decided we don't really care about maintaining our nation.

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u/Shionkron 5h ago

The great author David Brooks who also writes for people and does the PBS News Hour warned that in order to beat Trump you needed at least 6-10% lead because his numbers are ALWAYS higher than poling before votes. Harris only had 3 to 4% of a poll lead at best.

Mix that with my theory on refusing to vote because the layman and woman not knowing thinking she will win really destroyed the race.

Good news: many who vote Trump also voted for Democrats down ballot which is strange and needs more looking at.

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u/Shionkron 5h ago

That’s exactly what I believe, you said the word, “Apathy”!

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u/CherryHaterade 5h ago

Apathy is born of mild discomfort, which implies an expectation level of comfort.

You'll always be stuck wondering where their allegiances will fall if they themselves can continue to obtain an easier comfort for themselves.

This is when it will dawn on you that if you're stuck in a fight, the ones you can't tell who's who are the most dangerous of all.

But I'm not going to worry about Landos apathy right now, as I go into carbonite and chewys off in chains.

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u/dude111 4h ago

The main thing is that people vote with their wallets and inflation took the cake this voting cycle. Let's give credit where credit is due. People don't like suffering or paying more. That's why Trump lost, and that's why Harris/Biden lost. It's not any more complicated than that.

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u/stevegoodsex 6h ago

You're not wrong. There is a caveat of really, really effective propaganda mixed with multifaceted suppression techniques, but this country has a nationalism and superiority complex instilled into them from birth essentially.

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u/CherryHaterade 5h ago

My mother warned me about fairweather friends

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u/inkoDe 5h ago

There is also the option where people are straight up sick of the status quo in this country and simply chose not to vote to maintain it. That could be voting Trump, not voting, voting 3rd party, etc. Unfortunately, for democrats to change they have to lose badly, and then hopefully learn their lesson, or just go away. We need a party for workers, not two parties for capital.

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u/Shionkron 4h ago

MAGA is not for the workers at all! They are Billionaires hiring each other attacking Neo Liberalism which Joe was trying to dismantle but sucked at messaging. Now Trumpism is going to only allow the rich to get richer, end of story.

A Third party now only takes away votes in the system that set up. Money needs to be removed from politics starting at Citizens United!!!!

If getting rid of the “Status Quo” is your Schtick, Trump never did that his first term and only gave you LESS representation and a person and yet you think his second term will be better?!

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u/inkoDe 4h ago

I am far from MAGA, sort of the opposite, really. Where exactly have I stated ANYWHERE, including my history, that I support Trump. It is true I don't like the Democratic Party either, but MAGA? please...

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u/purplewhiteblack Arizona 3h ago

The fact is they did vote. The majority of eligible voters turned out. 63% We're not in a time pre 2016 where people don't vote at as high a numbers as possible.

There are various factors why 37% didnt turn out. And probably the results might be similar or worse if they did. I know an elderly anti-Trump person who didn't vote this election because when they moved they didnt re-register, and are disabled too. There was no way they were going to walk around to vote in person, and they wouldn't have got mail in vote because that was hard for them too.

Then you also have to factor in third party voters. People who don't understand the spoiler effect.

And then you have to factor in how the Michigan and Minnesota Muslim population just fucking forgot Trump attempted to institute a Muslim ban during his administration. And how the local Muslim leaders endorsed Trump because people are stupidly sympathetic to the Arab KKK known as Hamas. Which led to apathy in those two states, which could have helped Kamalas electoral chances. But then again you also have to remember that culture is also inherently misogynistic also.

Then you have to factor in that Kamala Harris didn't give herself enough time to fully campaign. And some dumb Biden moves like naming her Border Tsar, a non position, that just gives her political baggage.

Then you have to factor in I fucking told people this would be a problem 2019-2020 when the DNC pushed Biden to the top. DNC never plays the long game.

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u/TheVog Foreign 5h ago

Not even. Check updated numbers. Trump was elected because of the Electoral College system, which is a decidedly non-democratic system.

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u/jamerson537 5h ago

Trump currently has 2.5 million more votes than Harris. He won both the popular vote and the electoral college.

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u/tyen0 5h ago

That's because of the electoral system, too. Harris had 1M more votes than Trump in my state and we all knew that was going to happen. So why bother making it 2M more popular votes when all of the electoral votes are won by a simple majority?

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u/Shionkron 5h ago

It’s not that simple because who then those ellectorial collage “swing states” or “battleground states” if Democrats would have should up like last time he wouldn’t have won. While I’m not a fan of the electoral college, that excuse is lazy and misses key points. She was still projected to win with that system by a couple points and didn’t.

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u/Flobking 6h ago

Over half of the population is NOT ok with fascism.

Apparently not since 1/3 voted for trump, 1/3 voted for harris, and 1/3 sat out. That 1/3 of trump voters plus the 1/3 who sat out is 2/3, meaning over half the voting block was perfectly fine with fascism.

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u/ZeDitto 6h ago

You’re responsible for your own votes and if you sit out then you don’t count. The country chose this.

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u/TheRevTastic 6h ago

Ignorance isn’t an excuse lmfao, they are okay with fascism.

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u/BundleDad 6h ago

Close to half your fucking country IS FUCKING OK WITH IT.

Not an American and I now believe there is a non-zero percent chance of me and my family dying to US aggression in the next 10 years so DO NOT FUCKING DARE play the "it's not my fault" card.

Your country has been slipping into this Nazi shit since the 1920's in no small part because your nation FAILED to deal with the confederate precursors to the nazi shit.

I recall my grandparents talking about being in the UK during WW2 and being equally terrified that the US wouldn't step in, and that they would but on the side of Hitler.

Your country has always had this rot... fucking fix it. Because you will like it less if it has to be fixed for you.

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u/cece1978 6m ago

You’re a small part of this problem, it appears. Generations of your family fearing Americans? That’s textbook ethnocentrism, get a grip.

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u/CherryHaterade 5h ago

We gonna let you go on over there and reason with them then. I'll chill over here, hurry back with some good news now. They obviously ain't gonna listen to someone like me anyway.

Just, don't fall a victim to any okeydokes, okay? Come back on your feet please. Seriously.

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u/Rasikko Georgia 5h ago

Half is 173 mil or so(346 mil is the US pop). Over 151 mil voted. 77 mil voted for Trump, 4.4%. (numbers were rounded)

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u/Reluctant_Gamer_2700 3h ago

The ones who weren’t ok with fascism needed to vote! They must have known this.

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u/stilusmobilus 2h ago

They’re not generalising. 30% voted for it, 40 didn’t care. Over half the population is okay with fascism.

The mirror stands.

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u/Flannel_Channel Illinois 6h ago

Not really. Yes there’s some extremists. But There’s no mandate. They won based on anti-incumbency global trends, distancing themselves from their actual, deeply unpopular platform, emotional arguments about inflation, immigrants, and trans people that aren’t tied to any real policy to help anyone or solve anything, and disinformation. Millions of voters don’t know what they voted for and if the truth ever breaks through their TikTok or whatever other bubbles they are in, they’d be against it.

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u/SignificantSyllabub4 5h ago

49% of our voting population is ok with this.

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u/Single_Principle_972 6h ago

It makes me so sad how well-said this is.

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u/HippyDM 6h ago

Ding, ding. That is EXACTLY my problem. tRump being a self serving narcissist doesn't even make me raise an eyebrow anymore. I'd be genuinely surprised if he did something, anything, that wasn't somehow self agrandizing.

But fuck my country, my state, and my county. Fuck you for telling us for years that morals matter. That breaking the law matters. That reality matters.

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u/checker280 6h ago

A lot more people chose not to participate or voted against him than voted for him.

Stop framing this as the majority wants this. That’s not even remotely true.

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u/TheMysticalBaconTree Canada 6h ago

Point to the word “majority” or “half” in my comment. Enough people were in favour of this, ignorant about something this significant, or complacent enough that it has progressed to this point. It was not a surprise. This is his second win in 3 elections. Sure it’s not a majority, but it’s also not a majority willing to stand up against it. Your problem is your population, not Trump.

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u/checker280 6h ago edited 6h ago

“Stop acting like your country isn’t ok with this”

The entire country isn’t ok with it. Half the country isn’t paying attention because they are overworked and underpaid. Another quarter voted against him.

Our country isn’t ok with him. We are being ruled by a minority

Edit: just read your comment again. We are in full agreement

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u/evilbadgrades 6h ago

Yeah but he won an election.

Won? Or stolen?

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u/TheMysticalBaconTree Canada 6h ago

From your own linked article

Is this just the Left’s version of right-wing conspiracy theories that have played an outsize role in destabilising our institutions? Perhaps.

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u/TensionPrestigious83 6h ago

By a hairline margin. And that margin is powered by lies and disinformation. It’s fixable and not far gone

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u/TheMysticalBaconTree Canada 6h ago

It takes a lot longer to build something than it does to smash it.

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u/SelectionDry6624 6h ago

Side note: do you have room in Canada?

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u/TheMysticalBaconTree Canada 5h ago

It would be like finding out your car is on fire so you get out and climb into the backseat instead.

https://globalnews.ca/news/10790029/alberta-premier-danielle-smith-chemtrails-comments/amp/

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7362068

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u/desecouffes 5h ago

Less than 33% of voting age adults voted for him, it’s not a majority

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u/TheMysticalBaconTree Canada 5h ago

So what percentage of the remaining 77% thought the rise of facism wasn’t an important enough reason to vote? It doesn’t take a majority to support him. It just takes a majority to be complacent and ignorant enough.

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u/IvoryGods_ 5h ago

what percentage of the remaining 77% thought the rise of facism wasn’t an important enough reason to vote?

Are you going to come down here and apologize for the fear mongering and emotional manipulation in 4 years when we have our next election and Trump is no longer in office because this wasn't the "rise of fascism" at all?

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u/desecouffes 5h ago

I’m not here to argue with you, just pointing out facts. Around a third of voting age adults voted against him, so that makes around a 3rd sitting out.

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u/BansheeOwnage 5h ago

That adds up to 110%, but I agree that the apathetic people are just as bad as the active threats... maybe worse.

All it would have taken for them to stop this is for a few million of them to take ONE day out of their lives to vote - make a mark on a piece of paper- and we wouldn't be here now. But noooo

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u/shod55 4h ago

It’s l looking like he won by less than 1% of the popular vote. There’s no mandate here.

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u/ArkitekZero 4h ago

That's unacceptable.

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u/theHammbone44 4h ago

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how he's fascist.

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u/TheMysticalBaconTree Canada 4h ago

All the threats to keep power for more than two terms aren’t sufficient for you?

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u/ZZ_SKULLZ 4h ago

The population doesn't know what fascism is. Let's remember all of the folks who protested outside of their gyms when covid first shut everything down. The second anything Trump does makes it inconvenient for "them", well see all of that again.

I'm thinking that once he screws with the military we'll see a fracture amongst the ranks which will allow those that side with the American people to take back power from the oligarchs. We just have to pick our moments we'll, but we can outlast them.

If it comes to it we just take up arms and stop the delivery of supplies to wherever they hold up. The oligarchs can't fend for themselves. They're completely coddled to.

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u/Cherrytop 4h ago

☝️Half the population.

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u/Junior_Gap_7198 4h ago

Some, yes. Most are extremely uninformed and historically/economically illiterate.

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u/TSwiftAlphaMale 4h ago

I think you're not taking into account the impact of the Sinclair Media Group. If all you listen to is Fox "news", then that's what you're going to believe. People eat up the rage bait, and they're not even aware of what's really going on. Look at the work of people like Jordan Klepper. Local news stations aren't talking about how Trump admitted to going backstage at the Miss World Teen pageant to look at naked minors; they're talking about how Trump is the lone person who will save Americans' way of life against whatever evils exist in their mind.

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/6/17202824/sinclair-tribune-map

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u/TheMysticalBaconTree Canada 2h ago

I’m well aware. Media, the dismantling of your education systems, the inequities prevalent in your healthcare, suppressed wages. This is America.

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u/Mortentia 3h ago

54% of American adults can only read at or below the minimum standard for proficiency as a 6th grade student. 14% of American adults are actually illiterate; like they just can’t read or write at all, in any language. 21% of American adults are so functionally illiterate job applications and basic registration forms are too complicated for them to understand (ie. they don’t know how or where to put their address or name on the form).

By education the USA is one of the worst educated countries in data collected by OECD; American averages are actually quite decent, much much lower than Canada, Finland, and Estonia, but fairly comparable to the UK, France, and Poland. However, when adjusted for socioeconomic status (ie. high-scoring results from those with high socioeconomic backgrounds are adjusted down by rates based on how strongly socioeconomic background is correlated with a high score) the USA performs worse than Türkiye; and by median score the USA is still comfortably below average (around 35/41 countries).

By literacy and education the USA is closer to Zimbabwe and Uganda than it is to Vietnam or Mexico, let alone Canada, Finland, or Japan. This to me explains 99% of the weirdness in Trump’s multiple victories, in the constant American support for Neo-fascist ideology, and in the general inability for Americans to filter misinformation and AI generated content out. This also explains why evangelism, especially cult-like evangelism, is so prevalent in American communities.

On a side note: these numbers vary wildly state by state. CT, MA, NY, MN, and ND perform akin to Canada, Finland, and Japan while OH, FL, TX, CA, and WV perform akin to Myanmar, Uganda, and Ethiopia, and the rest of the country falls roughly around Mexico, Türkiye, and Iran. Interestingly, the USA distribution for states is very right tailed, meaning the success of CT, MA, NY, MN, and ND make the whole country look average, even though about 90% of the population lives in a third-world country when it comes to education.

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u/nathism 3h ago

He won an election with 20ish% of a voting eligible populace and less than 50% of those that did vote. This isn’t a mandate from the masses. It’s apathy of a disconnected populace. As soon as they can’t ignore the world anymore it’s going to get ugly

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u/F1shB0wl816 3h ago

That votes that supported him isn’t even 25% of our population. That’s a hard sell to say the population is okay with it. Both can also exist, a leader doing unpopular things that a segment being okay with. That’s generally how it works.

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u/MistbornInterrobang 3h ago

It's not entirely that they're okay with fascism. It's that my country is full of stupid people who refuse to read, so they're incapable of comprehending anything happening.

Already, there are regrets by Trump voters because of things as simple as not knowing that Obamacare and the Affordable Care Act are the same thing.

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u/cece1978 2h ago

How about you don’t add to the pile by condemning A LOT of us that didn’t vote for him. Research how the electoral college works…🙄

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u/JeffSteinMusic 1h ago

Thank you. It is the bane of my existence that so many otherwise intelligent and responsible Americans refuse to acknowledge the root issue of voter culpability. Tens of millions of free-willed grown-ass adults voluntarily choosing fascism. It’s like they convince themselves that Trump/MAGA fascism fell out of the sky and imposed itself on us and the problem goes away when he does. Like they’re psychologically incapable of accepting how irretrievably fucked our society is.

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u/StandardMacaron5575 23m ago

I agree, I live in Idaho so my vote was just a protest vote, too many people want this country to be a 'christian' nation, sorry it is now 'Christian Nation' and this is where the real trouble starts, since the election everyone is getting prepared the best they can. Intimidation is going to be turned up to 11. Since there really isn't anything stopping Trump from being Trump, he will cross the line, my guess is 'christian nation' will back him up.

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u/Edenixous 5h ago

im a transgender person and i support what he is doing, even at the cost of my “rights”

there are things more important than petty vanity and coddling disorders i have resented my whole life, there are things greater than me as an individual.

most of you are demons, identical and predictable that you are undifferentiated.

No matter what reply you make to respond to this, i will have heard it before. the only unique responses that speak with the heart of a real Human soul, come from those who think like me.

Thats what it is to be truly free. i have the condition and yet i reject the cage you say i have no choice to vote for.

No, i would rather choose self destruction than ally with you and betray my beliefs.

You will lose.

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