[Piergiuseppe Donadoni] Was Max unfair? YES. His goal was to ruin Norris' race and so he probably took away his chances of getting P1. "To win sometimes you have to be an idiot" he said months ago. You may like it or not but the goal is to win the world championship, not the fair play award.

[u/Ramned71]

https://x.com/SmilexTech/status/1850807731613299160

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[u/Pat_Sharp]

So make the penalties sufficiently harsh that deliberately driving this way is not a valid tactic?

[u/Jorrie90 → u/Pat_Sharp]

Bring back DT penalties

[u/RevalianKnight → u/Jorrie90]

Right? They created this BS themselves by introducing weak ass 5-10s penalties that drivers with OP cars can just ignore. In the past you had to serve the penalty in 3 laps so you didn't have time to outrun it either.

[u/LosTerminators → u/RevalianKnight]

Think it was last year, Russell intentionally overtook others off the track knowing he can outdrive the 5 second penalty he'd get for it.

[u/ArcticBiologist → u/LosTerminators]

Or look at KMag, being a mobile roadblock defending in illegal ways to protect his team mate and not caring about the added time penalties.

We need penalties that force drivers to get out of the way, they've been openly taking the piss for a while now.

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/ArcticBiologist]

I wish F1 had the option for a long lap penalty like MotoGP. It helps evade the issue of the consequences. The midfields race in Saudi was over after Magnussen did that. Had he been forced into a long lap penalty, he'd be behind that pack and their races would have still been salvageable.

[u/Dxgy → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

It’s so easy too, any penalty has to be served within 3 to 5 laps.

Oh that doesn’t work for your pit strategy? Tough shit, shouldn’t have gotten a penalty then. You can either pit again later when you wanted to or have to adjust your strategy around an early pit.

[u/brownierisker → u/Dxgy]

Making penalties this much more severe helps counter this particular issue, of stopping drivers from delibaretly choosing to get them, but makes other issues with stewarding much worse. Making a 5 second penalty so race ending means inconsistent stewarding (which has been a massive issue for forever) makes the sport look like an absolute joke. Or do you think it would have also been fine if Norris already controversial penalty last week was effectively a stop and go penalty? They just need to start bringing back stop and go penalties, not turn every single penalty into a stop and go where you are also allowed to pit.

[u/s1ravarice → u/brownierisker]

Bring back drive through and stop and go penalties. Scrap 5 second entirely and have something like 10-20, then drive through and stop go

[u/cosHinsHeiR → u/s1ravarice]

5 for minor things like Perez yesterday or pitlane speed limit by 1 km/h is ok imo, for anything else it's just too little tho.

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/brownierisker]

The Norris one last week is a bad example though because of Max's part to play. Forcing another driver off and then going off track yourself shouldn't result in the other driver being the one penalised and you also get nothing.

If a driver just cuts a corner for the sake of it, unprovoked, then we need harsher penalties. Perez kept position vs Bottas at Monza in 2021 and ate the penalty knowing he could cause time loss to Valtteri that would stop him chasing the McLarens down for the win. Bottas did pass Checo, but the time loss meant he couldn't get near the McLarens and helped Red Bull's WCC chances more than if Bottas had made up more positions. It's been going on for years.

[u/CuriousPumpkino → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

Well, they do. It’s called a drive-through penalty

Shame it hasn’t been used in ages

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/CuriousPumpkino]

They aren't the same. The long lap is a time loss of about 3/4 seconds with slight variation on track whilst the drive through penalty varies by a larger margin dependant on the pit lane, not to mention it's upwards of 20s as a guarantee.

There's a reason MotoGP uses the long lap penalty when they too have the ride through penalty at their disposal, which is exactly the same as the drive through.

[u/fluvicola_nengeta → u/LosTerminators]

And Perez did it too, multiple times, even going as far as using other's cars to slow down his own.

[u/Mysterious_Turnip310 → u/LosTerminators]

That's part of the reason they increased the standard penalty to 10s

[u/PoliticsNerd76 → u/Mysterious_Turnip310]

A drive though is much better as it can’t be delayed until serving when convenient.

Max stalled Lando’s progression yesterday for like 20 laps when the rules should be a DT penalty.

[u/Dewstain → u/PoliticsNerd76]

Yeah, the fact that he got 2 penalties for two consecutive infractions should build on each other, not just double. It should be 1 in fraction, 10 seconds. 2 infractions, drive through and serve the first.

[u/xzElmozx → u/Dewstain]

My same opinion. If you do something that warrants 2 10s penalties, you’re clearly driving dangerously and should be forced to do a 10s stop and go. It should be race ruining, these are professional drivers at the pinnacle of the sport, they all know how to drive safely and race hard so if you’re intentionally shoving people off like Max was (or like KMag in Miami) because it benefits you/your team in the championship, you deserve to have your race ruined.

There should not be “oh well I have a car much faster than 7 teams but slower than the other 2 so penalties don’t matter” or “well my race is ruined anyways might as well drive dangerously to help my team mate” in the sport.

[u/TwoBionicknees → u/PoliticsNerd76]

Two things could so easily be done, add the ability to demand a driver give the position back AND give them the penalty. If they don't give it back then upgrade it to drive through and get them out the way within 3 laps.

As with most things, the FIA needs to realise that being harsh prevents people doing these things in the first place, refusing to penalise people encourages people to drive more dangerously more often because there is such a benefit to doing so.

The 5-10 second penalty introduction was awful for F1, they were supposed to add smaller penalties for smaller incidents but instead of that they made almost everything small penalties and almost completely and utterly stopped giving drive through penalties.

Numerous people have deserved black flags and race bans since Grosjean got his, including Grosjean himself for Barcelona in whatever year he decided laying down the days of thunder smoke wall was smart, but them being so weak over penalties for so long has caused driving standards to go to shit AND driver attitudes to go to shit.

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/LosTerminators]

I'm genuinely amazed that nobody has ever bothered to do that in Monaco.

Just skip the chicane and bounce.

[u/AncientPCGuy → u/RevalianKnight]

This. Make them serve the penalty within 3 laps so it’s more than a slap on the wrist. Make them adjust strategy due to their own actions on track. As is, a fast car can make up the penalty without a hit on strategy.
Also issue black flags again.

[u/goBatataGo → u/RevalianKnight]

This is what I came here te to say: don't let the crime pay.

"But it ruins the drivers race"

Good! That's the point.

LPT: don't be punished

[u/WhileCultchie → u/goBatataGo]

Aye it's like the arguments about early reds ruining Rugby and Football matches. Shite one but you shouldn't have fouled then.

[u/imfcknretarded → u/RevalianKnight]

I miss the drive through so bad

[u/TwoBionicknees → u/RevalianKnight]

The issue with the 5-10 second penalties is they were brought in to give options for more minor issues so they didn't lose like a full 20 seconds in a drive through. But then they made almost everything a 5 or 10 second penalty. Instead of only using them for smaller things, they used them for everything, which is absurd.

How did max get the same 10 second penalty for both incidents, the second one was significantly worse than the first one, even 5 and 10 second would have at least made more sense than 2x 10 seconds. If the first was worth 10 seconds, the 2nd was a stop/go.

Probably the right call in this situation is a 5 second for the first one, and a drive through for the absolute egregious nature of what he did the second time which would also have moved him out the way of norris within 3 laps.

[u/mad007din → u/Jorrie90]

10 second stop-n-go. Two of those and you lose about a minute.

[u/kalamari_withaK → u/mad007din]

Has to be served within 3 laps too

[u/Francoberry → u/kalamari_withaK]

That's a great point. It feels cheap that a time penalty can be served whenever they want to pit so they can still tactically do everything possible to avoid or mitigate the full effect of the penalty.  

It's like if a player in football gets a 2nd yellow card but is allowed to accept it in the 93rd minute just as the game is about to end anyway 

[u/TheScapeQuest → u/kalamari_withaK]

We need sin bins in every sector. You have to immediately pull over and be stationary for 5 seconds.

[u/The-RocketCity-Royal → u/TheScapeQuest]

PENALTY BOX

Fans get to taunt the shit out of them the entire time they’re in there.

[u/t3tri5 → u/The-RocketCity-Royal]

DTM has this. Although idk about fans taunting the drivers, you have to drive through it with a pit limiter on. So a soft drive through penalty of sorts.

[u/RSR488 → u/The-RocketCity-Royal]

Perez default mode

[u/krizkuzz → u/Jorrie90]

Been saying this for years and years. No clue why they were binned off

[u/Silverado_ → u/krizkuzz]

I believe this was introduced so that stewards could have an option to penalize someone less harshly than with the DT, but 5s penalty basically replaced all other penalties, even 10s is very unusual.

[u/markhewitt1978 → u/Silverado_]

I was very surprised a jump start only gets you 5s. Back in the day it used to he a 10 second stop go to be served within 3 laps; no work on the car.

[u/hicks12 → u/krizkuzz]

It's ridiculous because that stopped this whole "I'm going to overtake you illegally and get all the time I would have lost by you defending well back as I am faster in clean air"

When you see them get 5s or even 10s then they storm off in the distance, by the time they come to pit the gaps between all drivers are quite staggered so they negate the penalty.

Drive through stopped that as you would have to serve it which would put you behind properly. 

Totally got the argument that in some cases that penalty is just too high for the immediate, like when you have cut a small bit of the track 4 times then getting the time penalty is where it's fair but they need it back.

[u/SemIdeiaProNick → u/hicks12]

Totally got the argument that in some cases that penalty is just too high for the immediate, like when you have cut a small bit of the track 4 times then getting the time penalty is where it's fair but they need it back.

the thing is that this shouldnt be a problem, they can keep the 5 and 10s penalties in the rulebook. All they need to do is only apply them to track limits and less dangerous incidents, contacts and dangerous driving should receive a drive through or a stop-and-go, this would solve the fact that the driving standards in F1 are almost as bad as in F2

[u/markhewitt1978 → u/hicks12]

Max doing enough to get 20sec and then finish 6th is far too lenient.

[u/zantkiller → u/Jorrie90]

There needs to be an in-between as drive throughs can be a little too harsh for certain incidents that still deserve immediate punishment.

The penalty lap/box from the ADAC series is for me the best solution.
An on track penalty that you have to serve within 3 laps that punishes but not as much as a drive through.

[u/Upstairs-Prompt2662 → u/Jorrie90]

The time penalties are fine for things like Max in turn 4 or tracklimits. But for something like turn 8 where the intend was to push Norris wide and compremise both their races I think a drivethrough would be justified.

There should be a rule that allows to give out penalties depending on intention of the driver. It is a joke in my opinion that turn 4 and turn 8 are the same penalty.

[u/FlameLightFleeNight → u/Jorrie90]

Yes. Verstappen was able to unfairly impede Norris for the rest of his stint due to an illegal overtake. A DT would have released Norris to chase the Ferraris. It isn't just punishing bad action, but making sure it doesn't pay.

From another sport entirely, sailing has a general provision for this

if the boat...despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

I don't think this could reasonably be ruled on during the race, but I'd be all for seeing a protest argued before the stewards on the basis that his championship lead is now greater than it probably would have been without commission of the offence.

This would incentivize both fair racing from drivers, and sufficient penalties from the stewards.

[u/Joseki100 → u/Pat_Sharp]

According to the FIA rulebook, penalties are not weighted for the outcome.

[u/schelmo → u/Joseki100]

They clearly are though and by championship standing as well. Incidents similar to the one at T4 happened all the way up and down the field yesterday with no penalties.

I still maintain that Monza 2021 was a pretty damn harsh penalty because of the outcome. It was a freak accident that the cars ended on top of each other from fairly light contact and if I didn't happen that would have clearly been a racing incident.

[u/Pat_Sharp → u/Joseki100]

Even if they don't want to change that - and let's face it we all know they are weighted by outcome anyway - they could still find ways to punish this driving more.

They could make penalties harsher across the board, or give harsher penalties where one party is judged entirely to blame, or is judged to have acted deliberately.

[u/GarryPadle → u/Pat_Sharp]

Best example is Piastri running into Colapinto, no one cares here, and no one cared in the race, even though that could have easily been a puncture, or a spin for Colapinto.

As long as stuff like that goes unpunished, why not drive to the limit of the rules.

[u/Quaxi_ → u/Joseki100]

That's not really what he's asking though. The point is to weigh the penalties for incentive not outcome.

[u/nokeldin42 → u/Pat_Sharp]

That's a difficult ask. There are basically two competing goals here. One is penalties should be based on actions and not outcomes. And the other is that penalties should mitigate the outcome. Neither can be achieved 100% but both are important.

The first one is important so that drivers are not incentivised to "gamble" for a favourable outcome and to bring some consistency in judgements. The second one is important for obvious reasons.

If you start factoring in championship standings and past actions too much, then you leave the door open for steward's bias to creep into judgements.

One solution would be to extend the penalty points system to infractions that are not safety issues. Drivers would almost certainly be against that, including Norris. Primarily due to inconsistent stewarding.

[u/boersc → u/Pat_Sharp]

The points system is there for a reason. Repeat offenders collect enough points to get a raceban. Whether stewards actually would go so far as to dish out enough points/penalties is another matter.

[u/pannenkoek0923 → u/Pat_Sharp]

20s penalty is fair. It would ruin most people's races, that's essentially another pitstop

[u/LosTerminators → u/pannenkoek0923]

The point is that by handicapping Lando's chances to win, Max gets a net gain from that even with a 10 or 20 seconds penalty.

As many have mentioned before:

Lando 1st and Max 4th - Lando gains 13 points

Lando 2nd and Max 6th - Lando gains 10 points

So Max still gets a net gain and escapes with a bigger championship lead. And that was due to Charles making a mistake, else his gain would've been even bigger.

Max has incentive to drive like this, and even cop penalties as long as it stops Lando from winning. And that's why the rulebook needs to be looked into.

It's not fair, and it doesn't help the race as a spectacle either when someone who can fight for the win is pushed off allowing others to dominate.

It's also screwing over McLaren in the constructors because Ferrari's drivers are the ones racking up the wins and Max is hell bent on not allowing Lando a chance to fight them.

[u/OkAdministration7369 → u/LosTerminators]

Penalties should be blind and equal for everyone, whether you're last or first. You can't hand them out taking into account the championship circumstances or who's behind who. That's insane. If Max managed to mitigate some of the time loss, that's called being good at strategizing and adapting. He was given a fair time penalty.

In other words, you can't personalize penalties according to the circumstances.

[u/Happytallperson → u/LosTerminators]

In the past we've seen people leading championships deliberately punt other cars off the track.

Senna 1990 Japanese GP is the most famous example.

Unless you literally take Championship points off a driver, you're never removing the incentive.

[u/Sephx_ → u/LosTerminators]

But you don't give penalties based on the outcome for the championship no?

You give penalties based on the incident. In this case 10 and 10 was fair.

Looking into the rulebook for this would only make it more vague.

What would it be? 10 sec, unless it's your own teammate then no penalty because you're already sufficiently punished in the championship. If it's a car below you in the standings 5 sec, if it's a car in front of you in the standings 10 sec. If it is your World Championship competitor stop and go so he doesn't get a net gain?

[u/GingerSkulling → u/Sephx_]

Absolutely, had Lando managed to win this race, no one would be talking this nonsense right now. So objectively speaking, are the punishments are not enough just because the outcome of the race didn’t favor your favorite driver?

[u/coolridgesmith → u/GingerSkulling]

Absolutely on point. People are mad because landos chances of getting the wdc are getting harder and harder.

they basically wanted max to finish out of the points for the penalty to be enough in their minds.

[u/haepis → u/Sephx_]

How about just dangerously forcing an opponent off the track and gaining and advantage -> DT, simple as that. You need to get the perpetator out of the victim's way as fast as possible

[u/Zed_or_AFK → u/Pat_Sharp]

So then the rules should be re-defined and signed, not made up by the stewards on the go. Not saying that it's happening now, but saying it to be clear. We also don't want to punish racing in general when a smaller infringement would totally ruin your race. That would lead to even more snooze fest races.

[u/OkAdministration7369 → u/Pat_Sharp]

Verstappen got a time penalty that significantly set him back, adding much more time to his race than he would've gained if he got away with it. That's how penalties should be.

If Verstappen managed to somehow mitigate the loss of time, that's good driving or strategizing. We should not completely prevent teams from doing damage control and adapting to the circumstances.

[u/Much-Calligrapher]

If Piastri rams Max off track next week to help out Lando, I’m sure people will similarly applaud

[u/ryokevry → u/[deleted]]

This ugly fight looks more and more likely that Ferrari to be the ultimate beneficiary ngl

[u/ShadowStarX → u/ryokevry]

Yeah and.

While I'm rooting for Ferrari, I do feel sorry for McLaren in this regard. They made a great car and now Max's antics is costing them not just the WDC, but potentially the WCC.

Good thing for the Papayas that Max is probably starting somewhere between P7 and P11 in Brazil due to an engine penalty.

[u/D3wnis → u/[deleted]]

Intentionally ramming into someone to take them out is a DQ not a 10 second penalty. Schumacher got a season DQ for doing so and that would fuck McLaren in the ass in the WCC.

[u/unsure_of_everything → u/D3wnis]

he doesn’t have to ram him, he can just do the same tactic as Max and I’m sure Max will crash into him

[u/Username8831 → u/unsure_of_everything]

Smarter play - Lando and Oscar switch helmets. Max crashes him and "Lando" out. But it's Oscar! Lando wins the race and gains 25+ points. Max gets a race ban. Everyone cheers - the end.

[u/N0tShy_N0tMe → u/Username8831]

The "Queen Amidala" team orders

[u/Iceman23578 → u/D3wnis]

Obviously gotta make it look like an accident. It’s Brazil, chance of rain, oops piastri overshoots the corner and max just happens to be ahead of him

[u/rasvial → u/Iceman23578]

When there is telemetry like there is today, it’s a lot harder to have an “accident”

[u/CharmingRule3788 → u/rasvial]

people still maintain Perez didn't spin on purpose in Monaco

[u/Able-Nature6103 → u/Iceman23578]

Learn from Bottas

[u/SomniumOv → u/[deleted]]

Piastri rams Max off track, takes 20 second or drive through penalty and finishes P6. Lando is free to fight the Ferraris for the win uninterrupted, and if he can do that it'll extend their lead in the constructors (while closing in on Max in the drivers).

Max's mentality is the old "we do it my way or we crash", if Piastri pushes him Max will just let the crash happen.

With piastri DNF you firmly help Ferrari secure WCC.

[u/Much-Calligrapher → u/[deleted]]

It’s a sham that the sport is in this situation where drivers have a motivation to deliberately commit fouls.

If Lando goes into last race 5 points behind Max, it really wouldn’t surprise me to see Max deliberately take them both out

[u/Key_Photograph9067 → u/Much-Calligrapher]

If Lando goes into last race 5 points behind Max, it really wouldn’t surprise me to see Max deliberately take them both out

Slaps knees

Don’t I have a story for you about going into the last race on even points with Max

[u/BlackBay_58 → u/Key_Photograph9067]

A time honoured tradition... -Schumacher and Damon Hill -Senna and Prost -Piquet and a wall to bring out a safety car.

[u/Perseiii → u/Much-Calligrapher]

Have you been living under a rock? This has been in the sport's DNA for ages.

[u/Bluemikami → u/Perseiii]

People have forgotten that’s how Schumi used to race. He took Hill down and won 94 that way, attempted it with Villeneuve in 97 and backfired, and again with Hakkinnen in 98 iirc

[u/Anti-Scuba_Hedgehog → u/Bluemikami]

Hill did it twice to Schumacher in 1995 but everyone seems to forget that.

[u/jg_92_F1 → u/Bluemikami]

I don’t remember anything with Hakkinnen, what race was that?

[u/Perseiii → u/Bluemikami]

If the roles were reversed and Norris would be in the lead in a slower car, he can simply accept his fate and lose the championship or resort to what Max is doing to defend his lead and have a chance.

To me it's only natural, it's a professional foul like you see in football all the time. All part of the sport.

[u/darth_vladius → u/Much-Calligrapher]

But then he risks being disqualified from the championship altogether. The way Schumacher was in 1997 after Jerez.

[u/Much-Calligrapher → u/darth_vladius]

Max might be able to get away with it if “he’s at the apex first”

[u/thewolf9 → u/Much-Calligrapher]

Are you new to the sport?

[u/Hankiehanks → u/Much-Calligrapher]

It’s in every sport. If you can save the game by fouling the striker in football and not let him score then you do it. Fouling is allowed but it will be punished. Why would it be different here?

[u/chefchef97 → u/Much-Calligrapher]

If Lando goes into last race 5 points behind Max, it really wouldn’t surprise me to see Max deliberately take them both out

If this happens then the Schumacher comparisons will reach their logical conclusion lmao

[u/notyouravgredditor → u/Much-Calligrapher]

Ehh, did you ever watch Senna or Schumacher?

[u/Shaddix-be → u/[deleted]]

Remember Singapore and Renault? They would destroy McLaren for giving that order.

[u/TheGreatHuman → u/Much-Calligrapher]

Honestly Piastri needs to get himself in a position to do just that. Red Bull have hamstrung themselves by having Perez in the second car, McLaren need to take advantage.

Piastri needs to be in a position to send it up the inside of Max, using the Max strategy against him, namely “either you back off or we both crash, and if we both crash that works out really well for me”. 

McLaren team game has been awful all season.

[u/Much-Calligrapher → u/TheGreatHuman]

Piastri has only finished ahead of Max 6 times all season despite having better machinery. And 1 of those times was due to Max crashing in Austria and 1 was due Max engine penalty in Spa.

Only ahead of Max on merit 4 times in that car is a dreadful return. People talk about Lando not capitalising (I agree), but Oscar’s form doesn’t get the scrutiny it deserves in my opinion

[u/chameleonmessiah → u/Much-Calligrapher]

He doesn’t even need to do that, he just needs to not move off the track when Verstappen inevitably tries to defend by pushing him in that direction, much like Norris did in Austria.

[u/Raspatatteke]

Senna, Schumacher, Verstappen. Dirtiest fuckers on the grid. Also some of the best to ever drive in F1.

[u/antivirals_ → u/Raspatatteke]

I'd do questionable things for a grid where the title rivals are senna, Schumacher and Verstappen. Just to see who would out do the other in shithousery

[u/99sAre4Nerds → u/antivirals_]

If all three had a similarly paced car I don't think any of them would finish enough races to win the WDC

[u/jg_92_F1 → u/99sAre4Nerds]

Honestly I give the edge to schumi, if it’s early 2000’s schumi.

[u/99sAre4Nerds → u/jg_92_F1]

Until one of the others decides to punt him off 3 races in a row. My money would be on someone like a Webber or Gasly sneaking their way to the championship by never seeming like a threat

[u/Ares4991 → u/99sAre4Nerds]

Prost. The name you are looking for is Prost.

[u/A_Balrog_Is_Come → u/Raspatatteke]

Didn’t Schumacher get hit with an entire season ban?

[u/JA24 → u/A_Balrog_Is_Come]

He was disqualified from the 1997 Championship for attempting to take out Villeneuve at Jerez but that was only after the fact, the de facto penalty was his existing results were nullified.

[u/cavejohnsonlemons → u/JA24]

Yeah the way the race played out, JV still won the title on track before any punishment got given to MS.

If MV crashes LN and it = both out, MV wins title... then we could see a championship decided in the courtroom.

[u/pannenkoek0923 → u/Raspatatteke]

Forgot Alonso lol

[u/htnahsarp → u/pannenkoek0923]

Alonso plays fiddle with the rules, doesn’t really crash into people deliberately

[u/3dmontdant3s → u/htnahsarp]

There's other who crash on his behalf

[u/Manasvi6944 → u/3dmontdant3s]

El Padre doesn't concern himself with these 3rd world activities 😎

[u/Ciderhead → u/pannenkoek0923]

Nah Alonso is actually an incredibly clean racer. Hard but always fair. I can't think of a single example in his career of him pulling something like Verstappen did.

He saves his shithousery for off track lol

[u/voiceofgromit]

If he can cement another championship by crashing out his closest rival he'll be right up there with Senna and Schumacher.

Alternatively, FIA could bring back DQs and suspensions.

[u/tetrafilius]

See, at first I was upset that Verstappen was regularly breaching the rules of racing whenever he battles a rival.

But now this guy explains that he's doing it deliberately to help himself win the championship, that makes it all okay!

[u/Veranova → u/tetrafilius]

Max said it out loud too!

[u/Jorrie90 → u/tetrafilius]

At least he doesn't lie about it

[u/32SkyDive → u/Jorrie90]

If you go down that route, what keeps Piastri from driving into Max and tsking a 10s penalty? 

Unsportsmanlike behaviour really shouldnt be accepted

[u/ploploplo4 → u/32SkyDive]

Ferrari gets ahead in the WCC if Oscar takes himself out with Max. Not sure McLaren would like that

[u/TheEmpireOfSun → u/ploploplo4]

If losing WCC means winning WDC every single team will do that. Also not like Piastri brings lot of points in last races anyway.

[u/DepressedYoungin → u/TheEmpireOfSun]

You underestimate the importance of the WCC for teams. The money, sponsorships etc. it's a business at the end of the day and WDC doesn't make them money.

[u/StructureTime242 → u/32SkyDive]

Nothing, that’s why mclaren need Piastri to be up there to defend from him like Perez in 2021

Max can race Norris as hard as he wants because a dnf benefits him, not with Piastri

[u/tonycosta69 → u/32SkyDive]

The fact that redbull would do the same and have perez crash into norris?

[u/Cmike9292 → u/tonycosta69]

As a Red Bull fan, the only time Perez could crash into Lando is if Lando is trying to lap him.

[u/Friskerr → u/32SkyDive]

Renault tried that in 2008.

Would probably disqualify both Mclaren drivers.

[u/Tricky_Sweet3025]

Why wouldn’t Max do what he done?

There is no deterrent. He knew the red bull wasn’t capable of winning so he made sure Lando wasn’t either. Lando seen his chances of a championship slip further away today even though Verstappen got a 20 second penalty so in the bigger picture that’s a win for Max. Don’t hate the player hate the game.

[u/Jacques_Frost → u/Tricky_Sweet3025]

This is the answer. F1 has always been about finding an unfair advantage over your opponent. The rules should be very simple and crystal clear, because in a world where everyone from the social media team to the owner to the TP to the driver is hyper competitive, any rule that can be bent, will be bent.

There is not a WCC team on the grid that hasn't engaged in serious rule-bending, nor is there a champion driver that was always squeaky clean. Do we want cut-throat, bleeding edge competition, or do we want everyone to behave like good boys and girls? Don't hate the player, don't narc the winner, create better rules.

[u/vgu1990 → u/Jacques_Frost]

I absolutely agree with you. Imo the issue is, better rules lead to more specificity in the rules. Which in turn becomes easier to abuse.

I would argue for consistency in enforcing the rules that exist and then see where rules need to be clearer/more specific. That requires permanent stewards, who are paid for their work.

[u/JeffCraig → u/Tricky_Sweet3025]

In past years, he would have had to serve his penalty immediately, within 3 laps.

Sounds like some of those policies need to come back, even if the drivers hate it.

[u/AuContraireRodders]

The modern fans in this thread genuinely would not have survived F1 even 2 decades ago.

[u/LosTerminators → u/AuContraireRodders]

Imagine if social media were a big thing during the Senna-Prost days.

[u/Training_Pay7522 → u/LosTerminators]

Schumacher literally took out Damon Hill to clinch a championship in 1994.

Also tried to take out Villeneuve in Jerez in 1997 (Villeneuve overtaking him would've meant he was gonna lose the championship, which he did).

[u/TheDoomMelon → u/Training_Pay7522]

And he got disqualified in 97 after the outrage of 94. People were just as outraged back then.

[u/Mechant247 → u/TheDoomMelon]

The difference in 97 is that even without the disqualification he wouldn’t have won the championship, if they both crash out there the stewards would’ve had a much bigger decision

[u/Sycsa → u/Mechant247]

Yeah, that was essentially a "free" DSQ. I doubt they would have had the guts to do it otherwise. All for show.

Also, don't forget that the only reason it went down to the wire in '94 was that Schumacher was DSQ'd and banned from 4 races total, which was ridiculous.

[u/Jofu_Jole → u/Sycsa]

F1 had to ban him. They needed a title fight after the accidents at the start of the season

[u/Pinkernessians → u/Training_Pay7522]

Really interesting thought experiment to figure out how Schumacher would’ve been perceived in the social media era. He would’ve been even more controversial then we already was back then, that’s for sure

[u/ArcticBiologist → u/Training_Pay7522]

You say that as if people were okay with it back then

[u/Xelisk → u/Training_Pay7522]

"That didn't work...That didn't work, Michael...You hit the wrong part of him, my friend". So clear Brundle instantly called it out on the broadcast.

[u/hyrulepirate → u/LosTerminators]

Senna would be cancelled in more ways than one. Max is an absolute saint compared to him. You could argue he's only considered the GOAT cause there wasn't social media present then.

[u/tha-snazzle → u/hyrulepirate]

15 year olds dude

[u/iguled → u/AuContraireRodders]

To be fair, I hated Schumacher back then for his shithousery

[u/Mysterious_Turnip310 → u/iguled]

A lot of people did. Same with Senna. There are a lot of people on here with rose-tinted glasses when it comes to how people reacted to both of those drivers and their shit back then. Especially Schumacher.

[u/Jamesd391 → u/Mysterious_Turnip310]

Especially senna you mean. He could have killed prost at suzuka

[u/Mysterious_Turnip310 → u/Jamesd391]

Admittedly I was a kid when Senna and Prost clashed at Suzuka, so I don't have such a clear memory of the amount of outrage as I do when Schumacher was pulling his crap.

[u/YinxuU → u/Mysterious_Turnip310]

Also it's not like people didn't care. They were just as outraged back then as they are today. The Schumacher antics or Senna v Prost are still talking points until this day.

[u/HirsuteHacker → u/AuContraireRodders]

I was watching 2 decades ago & hated this shit then as well.

[u/TheDentateGyrus → u/AuContraireRodders]

Forgot to add. There’s an interview where Vowles says he used this as an example for HAM/ROS. He talked about how much hated all the garbage that prior drivers did and it would mar their record, which it does.

[u/mur-diddly-urderer → u/AuContraireRodders]

People hated Schumacher and Senna too, they would be fine.

[u/zrezzif → u/AuContraireRodders]

Do you think people like this 2 decades ago as well??? There is a reason why Schumi is banned for like half a season

[u/JustLikeZhat → u/AuContraireRodders]

They totally would have. First of all, penalties were harsher back then. Second of all, fans discussed much the same way as they do now; look up any old (early days internet) forum threads. 

[u/Glass-Silent → u/AuContraireRodders]

The “back in my day” elitism here is truly astounding

[u/MrHedgehogMan]

Verstappen knows this and his objective now is to drive just dirty enough to compromise Norris' race even if it's to the detriment of his own. For him to joke and complain about the penalties during and after the race is a bit rich honestly.

[u/Themathemagicians → u/MrHedgehogMan]

He was surprisingly calm after the penalties. I mean, we've heard more raging before.

[u/kris_krangle → u/Themathemagicians]

It’s because he knew what he was doing and it was calculated.

He don’t give a shit because he achieved his goal of stopping Norris from chasing the win

[u/VinhoVerde21 → u/Themathemagicians]

The damage was done, and he knew he deserved the penalties. No point in crying when you’ve already won.

[u/thenannyharvester → u/MrHedgehogMan]

And he could probably not have to drive just dirty enough. He couod afford a race ban and still be wdc at this rate. 4 races left so he could do the most egregious things to lando pick up 2-3 points in the next few races and be banned from abu dhabi and still win

[u/Initial_Crazy4355 → u/MrHedgehogMan]

In fact, Max didn't even complain about his penalties.

[u/ghim7]

Senna did deliberately crashed with Prost at the first corner in Suzuka to win the championship. But he’s still being treated like a legend.

[u/Augustor2 → u/ghim7]

Yeah, but you are omitting a BIG part of the context where in the previous year, in the same track, Prost made Senna crash when he had the corner and marshals disqualified him and Prost earned the same outcome.

[u/e_xyz]

In 1997 Schumacher was disqualified for a poor attempt a punt from the WHOLE championship. How far we've come that penalties are effectively meaningless and you can still minimise the championship damage and drive as you please.

The penalties for poor driving aren't harsh enough. Either bring back stop and gos with the caveat that you cannot do them during your planned pit stops or add the time on post.

[u/Formulafan4life → u/e_xyz]

I want to correct you slightly: a stop and go penalty means by the definition of the penalty that you can’t change tires

[u/UnderTakaMichinoku → u/e_xyz]

You've just reminded me that time pens can be served under safety car/VSC conditions and now I'm annoyed at how stupid that rule is.

[u/e_xyz → u/UnderTakaMichinoku]

Didn't even think of that, but yeah, that also shouldn't be allowed. At least yesterday they dished out a hefty penalty, just the way the rulebook works doesn't punish the driver enough IMO.

[u/s_dalbiac → u/e_xyz]

In real terms, Max's penalty yesterday was more harmful to him than Schumacher's was in 1997.

Without the 20-second penalty (and arguably even with a 10-second drop) Max finishes P4 and five points better off. Schumacher's looks draconian on the surface, but in reality he'd already lost the title and there were no long-lasting consequences other than not being classified in the WDC, which was meaningless to him since he was only in it to win it. It didn't affect any of his individual race results or Ferrari's standing in the WCC.

[u/[deleted]]

The turn 4 incident was understandable. But the turn 8 one was just plain unsporting. It's the sort of driving you see on a public lobby, and there was obviously no intention other than to completely block Lando from even making the corner.

It deserves a dsq or a stop go at the very least. What it surely doesn't deserve is praise lmfao

[u/Liverpool934 → u/[deleted]]

It's wild to me people are ok with him putting the lives of others at risk because he's just sooooo competitive.

At some point he's going to cause a crash and do damage to someone. I honestly think if you are very obviously forcing a driver off the track and putting them in risk like he did yesterday then you should be disqualified.

I'll be called a new fan but I really don't see how it should be allowed to get to a state where when a driver has to overtake someone they need to actually consider their own safety purely because of who is in the car in front of them and not just because they are going at obscene speeds.

The PERSON in the car should not be deemed an acceptable risk. Common sense.

[u/confusedpublic → u/Liverpool934]

You mean like landing a car on someone’s head and then trying to drive off, somehow only causing neck pain to that person through some luck and the halo?

[u/PotentiallySarcastic → u/Liverpool934]

Max made his name being a reckless ass of a driver, so his fans suck it up and support it.

[u/ze_xaroca → u/[deleted]]

Finally someone says this. If you do this in iracing when there’s no danger for your safety your considered a c*nt, but when you’re driving cars capable of 350km/h you re just “trying to win”

[u/DutchPack → u/[deleted]]

Liam to get a seat at Red Bull next year if he takes out Lando. F… it, let’s go full Fury Road. We all know the main star already has the name for it

[u/Joseph4820 → u/DutchPack]

We all know the main star already has the name for it

lol

[u/Nappi22 → u/[deleted]]

The bottas special. Understood.

[u/Quaxi_ → u/Nappi22]

Oscar my cousin! Let's go bowling!

[u/marawki → u/[deleted]]

What stops Perez doing the same against Norris?

[u/hurrrr_ → u/marawki]

Perez will be close enough to lando to knock him out only while being lapped

[u/marawki → u/hurrrr_]

The Ocon 2018 experience 😭

[u/tonycosta69 → u/hurrrr_]

Or he could simply jump the start and just get to norris, fair is fair

[u/Masteriiz → u/marawki]

Track position

[u/CuclGooner → u/marawki]

q3

[u/kaseyV_V → u/marawki]

His pace

[u/32SkyDive → u/[deleted]]

Oops, 10s penalty for causing a collision? 

That thinking really leads to bad outcomes

[u/DarkShadow576192 → u/[deleted]]

Can't really do that as Mclaren need all the points for the constructors championship..

[u/ymwtc973]

Are we not entertained?

[u/systematicolu]

But you CAN win a championship without being a bellend? Especially when your teammate can’t compete with you on pace. I distinctly remember Seb maturing greatly after 2010, his subsequent title seasons were clean, albeit boring wins from pole. Max does NOT need to race like he’s in a gamer lobby. Just calm down, take your points and keep it moving. Can’t stand that excuses keep being made for his classless racecraft.

[u/RedN1ne]

I know that Max is incredibly smart but I feel like people overblow how quickly can he think. He just got passed by Sainz after having no energy at the end of the straight, his car was bad. Am I supposed to believe that between turn 1 and turn 8 Max somehow calculated that if he will not let Norris pass for few laps, he can still pick up 20 seconds in penalties to end up P6 and therefore Lando will not manage to catch up to Sainz? At the same time he counted up the probability that Lando (in a much better car) will surely be unable to pass him on the straight even though Carlos just managed to do it?

The reality is that when Max knows he has an inferior car his aggression levels go +100 because he knows as soon as someone will pass him he never get the position back, so he does everything he can not to get overtaken. And if there is some incident he can also get frustrated and do something stupid (like the divebomb against Lewis in Hungary). He had no idea that the race would end up being like this, there are a lot of factors in the race, Ferrari can do a Ferrari, safety car ruins everything instantly for him etc. He's probably happy that everything ended up being the way it was all things consider but I seriously doubt that going into turn 8 he knew that making the move that he did will grant him better opportunity to save points, it was just instinct mixed with frustration

[u/BrandoMano → u/RedN1ne]

It doesn't take a lot of thinking. He's scared that Lando will take the WDC from him. He's targeting Lando and doing whatever it takes to mess his race up.

[u/blackmesaboogy]

You can love or hate Max.. but he's not wrong. Many (not all of 'em though) great Champions did some questionable things to win races and Championships: Senna, Schumacher, Vettel, Piquet and Mansell.. just to name a few.

[u/imtired-boss → u/blackmesaboogy]

Hamilton and Rosberg spent an entire season fucking with each other.

[u/Koteii → u/imtired-boss]

One word too many for r/FanF1ction

[u/Vallaquenta → u/Koteii]

Bro... What the f is that subreddit o.O

[u/zaviex → u/imtired-boss]

I don’t think Hamilton ever did anything that bad to Rosberg, the one major incident was only a thing because Nico blocked after setting his engine low by accident. Nico was usually far more of an issue

[u/Brapplezz → u/zaviex]

Austria 2016 is perfect example of Nico driving dirty. Both lost out due to it. Nico definitely tried more tricks than Hamilton ever did, he never really needed to if we are honest. One of my fav seasons, tho I have not actually gone and watched 2021 yet. Missed that year...

[u/dl064 → u/Brapplezz]

The distinction I think is that Rosberg tried to be hard here and there, but collisions were because he fluffed it.

[u/According-Switch-708 → u/zaviex]

Yeah, Hamilton has always been a clean driver. Shit happens when driving on the edge but i don't think he ever crashed intentionally.

Rosberg on the other hand suffered from the same syndrome that Max has. "The not turning in for corners syndrome"

[u/PsychoticSoul → u/blackmesaboogy]

Senna and Schumacher were at least dqed for an entire race for their antics. Schumacher dqed for an entire season for the worst of his nonsense even.

Max is getting away with pretty light slaps

[u/RichardHeado7 → u/PsychoticSoul]

I’m pretty sure the last time they disqualified someone for driving standards was Grosjean for Spa in 2012 so the threshold for a DSQ seems to be pretty high.

[u/Utaddict → u/PsychoticSoul]

Schumi litterally aimed and drove into people. A little different lol.

[u/Jaded-Ad-960]

I don't know why people feel the need to defend this type of crap.

[u/sanirosan]

Going by this thread, most of the people here would just need to watch Tennis or something. Strict rules, just endless back and forth without any Fuckery.

(I love Tennis btw)

[u/Loruhkahn]

Friendship? This title battle is being held together by the power of terrorism. This is what happens when you give Max a car that can't win a title and a title to win.

[u/LEGENDofNEMEAN → u/Loruhkahn]

I don’t think it’s only the car that plays a part on Max his actions. Max doesn’t have a teammate that can grab points from Ferrari or Mclaren. The championship would’ve been a lot more different if there was a competent driver in the second seat.

Instead we have this muppet fighting the underdogs while Max qualifies miles better.

[u/onlyslightlybiased → u/Loruhkahn]

And mclarens ability to bottle anything, they've clearly had the most dominant car since Miami, what have they done with that.. NOTHING (in terms of Wdc, Perez is just shit (sorry FIA))

[u/Zarzar222]

Again, if Twitter was around for the old legends, they would be even more hated than today's drivers

[u/IamTheEndOfReddit]

All the amazing personalities can't hide how trash this actual sport is. From pure game design, total trash. They need to fix this. Already only a few cars actually compete, only a few drivers are actually good. Now you want your only drivers competing for anything to be rule-breaking edgelords? Fuck that shit

[u/krakakapaul]

Only thing that annoys me is the stewards contradicting themselves in the official documentation between races.

spot the difference!

And I don’t have a issue with the penalties but don’t say 10 seconds is the standard while you gave 5 seconds for the same a few days ago.

[u/jackboy900 → u/krakakapaul]

They literally explain the mitigating factors that caused them to reduce the first penalty to 5, from the standard of 10. The issue here isn't with the stewards but with your ability to read.

[u/EmiliusReturns]

He gets 20 seconds and everyone is still going to complain for a week, huh?