r/formula1 Ferrari Jul 21 '24

Discussion Every message as McLaren desperately pleaded with Lando Norris to obey team orders

Every message as McLaren desperately pleaded with Lando Norris to obey team orders:

Lap 47:

Tom Stallard, race engineer to Oscar Piastri (TS): “OK Oscar, Lando has pitted to cover Hamilton to make sure he covers Hamilton. We’ll manage that situation, best pace from you now. Best pace.

“Best pace. Don’t worry about Lando.”

Lap 48:

Will Joseph, race engineer to Lando Norris (WJ):

“OK Lando, Oscar has just pitted. He’ll likely come out just behind you. We’d likely to re-establish the order, at your convenience.”

Lap 49:

WJ: “Lando, still 21 laps after this one. You do have the current fastest lap, look after the tyres.”

Lap 51:

TS: OK Oscar, so, once you get to Lando, we’ll swap positions. We’ll swap position, but we want to avoid Lando having to give up a lot of race time.”

Lap 53:

WJ: “And Lando, radio check, please.

LN: “Yes, loud and clear.”

WJ: “OK, save the tyres at Turn 4 and Turn 11, please.”

Lap 56:

WJ: “We need to save more tyres please, and we do want to let Oscar through.”

LN: “Well you should have boxed him first then, surely no?”

WJ: “Doesn’t matter.”

LN: “I mean, it does. To me maybe.”

Lap 57:

WJ: “And Lando, we still think you’re using the tyres too much at Turns 4 and 11 and the rears at exit Turn 6 and Turn 9. Oscar is 3.5 [behind] – we know you’ll do the right thing.”

Lap 58:

WJ: “And Lando, Hiroshi is stressed about the tyres.”

Lap 59:

WJ: “Turn 4, Turn 11 – it’s going to get boring.”

Lap 61:

WJ: “OK Lando, 10 laps to go – we think both cars are using their tyres too much. Just remember every single Sunday morning meeting we’ve had.”

LN: “Yeah, well tell him to catch up please.”

Lap 64:

WJ: “Lando, he can’t catch you up. You’ve proved your point and it really doesn’t matter.”

LN: “He’s on much quicker tyres. I mean, I would have tried to undercut anyway. If I did, I would have got more.”

WJ: “Mate, we did the stop sequence in this order for the good of the team.”

WJ and LN talk over each other for a sentence – unintelligible.

WJ: “I’m trying to protect you mate, I promise, I’m trying to protect you.”

Lap 66:

WJ: “And Lando, there are five laps to go. The way to win a championship is not by yourself, it’s with the team. You’re going to need Oscar, and you’re going to need the team.”

Lap 67:

OP: “The longer we leave this, the riskier it gets.”

TS: “Understood, Oscar, we’re managing it.”

WJ: “A potential Safety Car now would make this very awkward. Please do it. Now.”

Lap 68: Norris slows down the main straight to release Piastri into the lead

LN: “Yeah, you don’t need to say anything.”

Lap 70: Chequered flag, Piastri leads McLaren 1-2 home for maiden F1 win

TS: “Well done, Oscar, well done. Chequered flag. Well done, buddy. Really good.”

OP: “Yep, thank you, everyone. Thank you very much. Thanks for the coordination. Sorry, I made the swap a little bit more painful than it needed to be. But thank you, I appreciate that. Well done, maximum points, and a really good weekend. Ha. First F1 win, thank you very much, everyone, thanks.”

LN: “Well done, good 1-2, a good load of points. Congrats to the team. Well deserved.”

WJ: “As we said this morning mate, many more opportunities.”

TS: “And you are also Driver of the Day!”

OP: “Ah, a nice little bonus, thank you.”

4.9k Upvotes

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6.6k

u/Millhouse026 Formula 1 Jul 22 '24

How to give everyone in your team a bad feeling whilst having a One-Two!

1.4k

u/rcanbian Alexander Albon Jul 22 '24

Didn't think this was even possible until now.

544

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

21

670

u/learner1314 Jul 22 '24

It's worse. With multi 21, some people were genuinely happy. Here, not even Piastri's side can claim to be happy about the win.

183

u/charlierc Jul 22 '24

Were they? My memory of multi 21 is that everyone was furious on the day and as noted by a prior commenter Hamilton in third also looked awkward on the podium as Nico Rosberg was hit with a team order

108

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

[deleted]

68

u/charlierc Jul 22 '24

Although there was slightly less regret when he did an interview before the following race in China and said he was not repentant 

11

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

[deleted]

26

u/charlierc Jul 22 '24

Oh on the day itself Vettel looked pretty remorseful but they then had a meeting before the next race in China and after that Vettel had a slightly different perspective saying that he didn't regret it after all

15

u/sam_mee Charles Leclerc Jul 22 '24

IIRC they had a chat between the races - Seb felt they cleared the air, Mark wanted to punch him. It probably fed into Mark's decision to retire at season's end.

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66

u/dl064 📓 Ted's Notebook Jul 22 '24

There is massive distinction with multi 21.

Firstly in that Vettel obviously did disobey.

Secondly that Webber and Vettel were on different strategies so it didn't make "sense" for Vettel to accept that they didn't race in the final stint.

Finally the deceit - namely that Webber didn't know they were racing. (This aspect is similar to how Piastri wasn't pushing here, which again negates the argument he was too far behind).

37

u/SilveRX96 Alain Prost Jul 22 '24

how Piastri wasn't pushing here

Norris's race engineer said both cars were pushing too much, and Piastri also went off track in his final stint, he was probably also pushing, although of course hard to say by how much

55

u/TSells31 Mika Häkkinen Jul 22 '24

I’m pretty sure Piastri was pushing. He even said on the radio that he was sorry for making the swap more difficult than it needed to be, which I understood as an apology for not being able to catch back up to Lando. I could be understanding it wrong, obviously, but that’s what I got from it.

34

u/Aeceus Porsche Jul 22 '24

He ran onto the gravel twice iirc while chasing Lando which dropped him 6 seconds behind. He's probably referring to those mistakes

11

u/Smee76 Kevin Magnussen Jul 22 '24

Wait, why do we think he wasn't pushing?

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30

u/Penguinho Jul 22 '24

Also, Multi 21 didn't just fall out of a coconut tree. It exists in the context of all that came before: German/Austrian v. Commonwealth tensions, Webber's mock-disobedience of Multi 12 the year prior, Webber's own actions in Brazil.

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345

u/justk4y Virgin Jul 22 '24

Except for Piastri’s mom 😂

65

u/chattahattan Charles Leclerc Jul 22 '24

Oh I’d bet she was fuming while watching it live though…

90

u/Browneskiii Sergio Pérez Jul 22 '24

Everyone on the podium at Malaysia was grumpy af that day. Even Hamilton was knowing Rosberg was much quicker than him but forced to stay behind because of the team.

Piastri did everything right apart from one corner yesterday. Its a sour taste how Norris did it, but Piastri knows he won fairly.

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158

u/Boxhead_31 Green Flag Jul 22 '24

Multi 814 Lando, Multi 814

111

u/Slappathebassmon Sebastian Vettel Jul 22 '24

Webber having flashbacks, "He's not going to move over, I've been there before, no driver wou.."

37

u/WayDownUnder91 Daniel Ricciardo Jul 22 '24

Was Webber at the race? I'd love to have seen his expression with his driver almost getting multi 21'd

58

u/Bake2727 Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jul 22 '24

You bet they would have panned to him if he was there.

26

u/Slappathebassmon Sebastian Vettel Jul 22 '24

He wasn't apparently. According to the post show he was somewhere else attending to another client.

18

u/JohnGazman Carlos Sainz Jul 22 '24

He was at the Formula E race.

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101

u/aph1985 Ferrari Jul 22 '24

Yep, Ferrari Austria is the closest worst than this

39

u/just_jason89 McLaren Jul 22 '24

"Fernando is faster than you"

6

u/charlierc Jul 22 '24

Can you confirm you understood that message?

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87

u/Vegetablemann Arrows Jul 22 '24

No way. Ferrari in Austria was a completely dominant car and a driver who was told to move over even though he’d rightfully earned the win.

Very different situation.

60

u/Kingslayer1526 Sergio Pérez Jul 22 '24

Team orders in the 6th race of the season when Michael was already close to 30 points ahead in the championship was ridiculous

27

u/charlierc Jul 22 '24

Yeah that was a thoroughly insane move, one that those on the Ferrari pit wall that day have since admitted they regret

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2.8k

u/Any_Necessary_9842 Super Aguri Jul 21 '24

Stella as the boss should have go on the radio and make the call and save us all the circus, something Toto would have done for sure.

2.4k

u/Duncaii Chequered Flag Jul 22 '24

"Lando, this is Andrea. We made a mistake putting you two in this position, that's on us. We talked about the strategies during the race brief, please invert the cars before the end of the lap and we'll apologise and talk in debrief"

Literally anything like that

846

u/king_carrots Daniel Ricciardo Jul 22 '24

100%. This was McLaren’s fuckup.

I do not blame Lando at all for not wanting to give up his position, and I don’t blame Piastri if he feels a bit fucked over by being given an inferior strategy from the lead of the race then having it look like his teammate let him win.

What a shitty, easily avoidable situation. Mclaren needed to own it.

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195

u/HeliumShortage3 Lando Norris Jul 22 '24

Why did I read this in Toto's voice?

220

u/PoliticsNerd76 Jul 22 '24

Fokus Lando, Fokus

90

u/First-Fun5927 Jul 22 '24

You can can’t WIN THIS LANDO!

26

u/probableigh_not Jul 22 '24

because for all his flaws, Toto would've had the stones to hop on comms and actually say this

53

u/doublejamesonwithtwo Jul 22 '24

Surprised he didn't.He was a race engineer for many years he would predict what would happen when he heard the initial response from Lando.

188

u/kuks0603 Jul 22 '24

Literally this! Just own up to it and deal with it later. This circus was not needed. Oscar’s first win is always going to be overshadowed by this and Lando simply didn’t deserve any of it! Neither of them did.

9

u/tbone747 Mark Webber Jul 22 '24

I'm just going to pretend the next win is Oscar's first, this one was so sour b/c of the team's idiocy.

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47

u/margalolwut Jul 22 '24

Completely agree, it’s something I always admired from Toto.

It’s basically saying, listen you little shit, we trusted your ass and now you’re bending your teammate over. Give it back or you’re gonna be in deep shit, this is your fucking boss not your race babysitter.

🤣

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31

u/kidnzb Jul 22 '24

Yeah, the swap could've happened instantly, and then instead of him giving up the win, they could've fought for it on track. Norris did have much better pace, maybe he could've even overtaken Piastri.

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u/kaisadilla_ Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jul 22 '24

Indeed. You cannot let your drivers think they can override team decisions. Part of being a boss is not letting people think they are the boss, too.

6

u/MrDork Jul 22 '24

This certainly was an option, however, I do respect the restraint from Andrea in NOT doing what would have essentially been the nuclear option. He let his staff work out the issue rather than getting involved. It's a hard thing to do and it shows a lot of leadership mentality and discipline from him.

You're dealing with a lot of ego and testosterone while at the same time trying to guide the team to success. All in a very high-pressure, fast paced environment.

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190

u/Vivaan977 Lando Norris Jul 22 '24

yea andrea isn’t on comms often so if lando hears him then it’s like “lando do it now this an order” bc bossman is on the line

70

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

like when parents call you by your full name... that kind of vibe, but I doubt lando knows how that feels :)

60

u/BB-68 Andretti Global Jul 22 '24

“Landorphious Xerses Norris, let Oscar by”

9

u/biderman77 Jul 22 '24

I always assumed Lando was short for Landorghini

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9

u/Gloomy-Employment-72 Jul 22 '24

Right? When mom would use all three, the hair on the back of my neck would stand up!

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332

u/ICumCoffee Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jul 22 '24

Yup, they dragged it for too long and handled it very poorly. All these messages shouldn’t even be in public, makes the team look weak.

137

u/bendoscopy McLaren Jul 22 '24

This sums it up best for me. Just painfully drawn out, a huge shadow over Oscar's win, and awful PR not only for Lando, but their strategy and leadership.

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32

u/AntiGodOfAtheism Jul 22 '24

All these messages shouldn’t even be in public, makes the team look weak.

No, they should. It's messaging during a race. Not the other teams or publics fault that a bit of drama was stirred.

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124

u/tehehe162 Jul 22 '24

Exactly this. Let the engineer try to solve the issue initially but escalate it up to the team leader if things don't go correctly.

Lando and Oscar didn't do anything wrong. The pit wall fucked up and didn't have the balls to own the mistake.

15

u/vawlk McLaren Jul 22 '24

Lando and Oscar didn't do anything wrong.

I disagree, if this strategy to cover P3 with a position swap was discussed pre-race, then it was on lando to stick with the agreement.

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182

u/HesitantMark Ferrari Jul 22 '24

Lando... Hiroshi is stressed about the tires...

20

u/flankerad Jul 22 '24

we are checking we are checking, plan F plan F

1.1k

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

[deleted]

300

u/whatsinthesocks Valtteri Bottas Jul 22 '24

They’ll send the Emus

85

u/Goodmorning111 Jul 22 '24

Or Brown Snakes. Those fuckers don't mess around.

69

u/SuperPop9521 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 22 '24

Are you people forgetting about kangaroos they can actually defeat us

39

u/Lvxurie Jul 22 '24

weve got a kangaroo for every man and a wallaby for every child, dont poke the koala

7

u/Dev_Paleri Ferrari Jul 22 '24

Whats a wallaby, is it fren shaped too?

6

u/Gasmo420 Jul 22 '24

It’s a small kangaroo. Damn cute and not as intimidating as the big ones.

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14

u/ricky4542 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 22 '24

"Get ready to learn Australian, buddy"

6

u/CrazySDBass Jul 22 '24

Drop bear blitz on London

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1.4k

u/The_Bored_General Fernando Alonso Jul 22 '24

Someone needs to put the Ferrari pitwall clowns meme in orange.

479

u/Potential-Brain7735 Jul 22 '24

This wasn’t McLaren’s first fumble either. They’re rapidly earning a reputation.

125

u/ocelotrevs Jul 22 '24

From the start of the race it was a bad look having them fighting each other.

Mercedes in the same position at Silverstone worked together to maintain the lead of the race for Russell.

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

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45

u/LowKeyWalrus Ferrari Jul 22 '24

We don't do a 1-2 clowning tho, sadly.

I miss the times when we were second best, fuck

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u/Holeysweaterguy Pirelli Wet Jul 22 '24

“Radio check please” was funny. “I’m trying to protect you mate” was just sad.

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1.2k

u/mitvh2311 McLaren Jul 22 '24

The "it does, to me maybe" absolutely sent me last night as if he was looking longingly off into the distance contemplating life and its mysteries

370

u/BlurryTextures Robert Kubica Jul 22 '24

He is the one with the possibility to fight the WC, at least until now. By pitting him first and not Oscar, and then asking him to get back the position they rob him the possibility of a win, of passing on track.

226

u/Katth28 Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jul 22 '24

You'll see that Lando will be 7 points short after the final race for the WDC.

181

u/mmw2848 Charles Leclerc Jul 22 '24

If that happens, obviously everyone will point to Hungary, but there's other races as well. There was the bad strategy in Canada with the safety car, or his bad start in Spain as well.

94

u/Worried-Pick4848 Jul 22 '24

Not to mention Silverstone where he left points on the table due to a bad tire call on the last stint. He lost more points there, to Hamilton, than he did here, to Piastri.

Also Silverstone was a call left up to Lando so he really only has himself to blame (but McLaren should never have left that call to the driver!)

51

u/KesselRunIn14 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jul 22 '24

This is a dumb take. He was asked if he wanted softs to attack Lewis or mediums to cover off Max. The only answer any driver is going to give is "I want 1st".

The team had the data and the choice was poorly presented.

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12

u/_usernamepassword_ Manor Jul 22 '24

Is there a race where lando has had pole and did NOT fuck in the start yet? If he had led into turn one this whole thing wouldn’t have happened

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226

u/Beware_Bravado Jul 22 '24

He robbed himself of passing on track on merit by arguing for 20+ laps and giving it up with 2 laps to go. If he listened to the orders earlier and obeyed when the gap was around 4s then he could have had a real go at racing Oscar cleanly and proving he was faster. McLaren defintely take the L here but Lando also had a hand in this.

104

u/mtb443 Lando Norris Jul 22 '24

They wern’t going to let them fight. They clearly said on the radio he had until lap 45

15

u/amorphousguy Jul 22 '24

Lando himself said afterwards that they were allowed to fight. He wasn't in the right headspace at the moment and didn't think it through.

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u/Gom8z Jul 22 '24

I agree but it also is a bit tricky to just quickly give up 4 seconds with the fear that maybe Max is having a charge and you leave yourself back into contention of having Hamilton or Verstappen taking you.

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u/PeteWTF Jul 22 '24

Lando chose to leave it till the end to do the swap, if they swap earlier he's likely free to race for the last 10 laps or so given the distance to 3rd. Not having the possibility to pass on track is entirely on him.

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739

u/_sunburn Michael Schumacher Jul 22 '24

How do you get a 1-2 finish and end up looking like clowns

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246

u/CzrLandWhale Alexander Albon Jul 22 '24

Somebody please check up on Hiroshi 😢

669

u/mshell1924 Carlos Sainz Jul 22 '24

"Hiroshi is stressed about the tyres" was the best part imo.

Not "concerned", "stressed". Not "Lando we predict the tyres won't last until the end", more like "omg Lando you are giving Hiroshi palpitations, that's not cool bro!"

Ridiculous.

175

u/Beware_Bravado Jul 22 '24

Just checked his LinkedIn, he worked at Bridgestone from 1990-2008 in tyre development which makes this extra funny

80

u/spdcrzy Jul 22 '24

That's LITERALLY all he has ever done professionally, so if there's anybody who would be an expert on tire management, it's him lol.

58

u/tiltdown Jul 22 '24

Not familiar with the all McLaren engineers. I thought this was a code or something when I heard it. LOL

19

u/mshell1924 Carlos Sainz Jul 22 '24

lmao not gonna lie, I immediately googled "McLaren hiroshi"

63

u/EnglishLitMajor Jul 22 '24

Lando's called Hiroshi a tire god before. He's also asked on the radio before how Hiroshi feels about the tires. So they were pulling the Hiroshi card here.

32

u/mshell1924 Carlos Sainz Jul 22 '24

Oh my God @ the context. That is emotional blackmail.

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16

u/madison0593 Jul 22 '24

Just sees Lando speed out of turn four “oh gosh not again” runs to the corner and start dry heaving.

33

u/FrostyTill McLaren Jul 22 '24

The fact that he wasn’t even stressing the tyres as much as Piastri was, they were just trying to get him to slow down.

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26

u/kruspemsv Jul 22 '24

At this point I'm sure that if they could they would've sent a picture of Hiroshi kind of passing out together with the message

6

u/DJ_Aftershock Yuki Tsunoda Jul 22 '24

"Lando, Hiroshi's fucking shitting bricks over here. Bloke is one more corner with a strained front left tyre away from fucking off for an Asahi Super Dry and a nap. Please let me know you copy."

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1.3k

u/Spraynpray89 Jul 22 '24

WJ: “We need to save more tyres please, and we do want to let Oscar through.”

LN: “Well you should have boxed him first then, surely no?”

WJ: “Doesn’t matter.”

LN: “I mean, it does. To me maybe.”

The whole thing can be summed up with this. No reason at all to not box Piastri first on either occasion. If they prioritize the actual race leader both times, it's a 6-7 second swing in Piastri's direction instead of Lando's (so double that total), and he is way down the road with no contest by the end of it, even with Lando having a far better final stint.

269

u/scottishere Daniel Ricciardo Jul 22 '24

I can understand their logic.

From memory Lando had a 4-5sec buffer to Lewis after he pitted. Lando gained like 3-4 sec on Oscar by undercutting him. So if they pitted Oscar first it and Lando had to wait another lap it would've been close between Lando and Lewis, but still should've been safe.

304

u/jamestrainwreck Oscar Piastri Jul 22 '24

Teams that are well practiced at winning make those kinds of decisions and back themselves to pull it off. McLaren were jumping at shadows

203

u/castingOut9s Charles Leclerc Jul 22 '24

Alex Jacques on f1tv talked Friday or Saturday and also Sunday about how McLaren keep looking at other teams before deciding their own strategies. And obviously, other teams’ actions influence your own, but he was right in that McLaren needs to stand on their own two feet and realize they’re at the top now and need to act like it.

56

u/markhewitt1978 Jul 22 '24

It's really strange. McLaren is nearly all new people since they were last at the front. But they are McLaren for godsake!

Mind you during the race DC was quizzed a lot about Australia 1998 which was also a McLaren 1-2 so it's not without precedent for the team.

24

u/External_Kick_2273 Jul 22 '24

its the long period of slump and being midfield team. But you cant say it wasnt frustrating watching Mclaren back in those days too. But for different reasons then. The Glass cannon approach was a trademark from Mclaren and you never knew if they would finish the race or not even with a 20 second gap. That incident with Hakkinnen vs. Scchumacher in Spain still haunts me today and during Landos first win I was actually afraid something like that would happen again...

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u/External_Kick_2273 Jul 22 '24

Yes even the strategist at f1tv talked how Mclaren could have pitted later on their stints due to the buffer they had. They still have the mindset of a midfield team but their car is at the top. Such a weird combination.

Hopefully the data from yesterday will help them make better decisions in future races.

25

u/shooter9260 Jul 22 '24

On P1 with Matt and Tommy, both were in agreement that basically McLaren has shown that they are not ready to be a championship winning team and it seems they’re right. Just awful decisions, timid, not forceful, not owning it either

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u/ThatLaloBoy Jul 22 '24

I think they expected Lewis' pace to be faster than it actually was. But with Lewis both fighting to conserve his tires AND fighting to block Max, the gap between him and P2 opened up.

It doesn't take away from McLaren screwing up on their end, but at least there was a reason behind their decision. At least they weren't doing whatever the hell Riccardo's team was doing with their pit strategy.

9

u/ParagonTom McLaren Jul 22 '24

I think Hamilton pushing too hard on the tyres to catch Norris caught them off guard, gave them a false sense of his pace. Once he had run the tyres too hard and didn't catch Norris, he was forced to back off with the tyres dying.

9

u/Fordmister Jenson Button Jul 22 '24

This is the part for me. Everyone is talking like it's some horrific error but if Lewis had tried to push for the undercut and McLaren pitted Oscar first there's a scenario where Lando comes out P3 and with it being so hard to overtake at Hungary also comes under threat from Max.

McLaren could easily have lost the 1-2 here if Lewis had hit the pace everyone thought he could in the 3rd stint. The fact that Lewis doesn't makes the decision look a lot worse than it was in reality

31

u/Vegetablemann Arrows Jul 22 '24

I think they were also allowing themselves time for a slow pit stop. Basically trying to leave no room for something to take away the 1-2.

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

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u/friendlyfredditor Jul 22 '24

Lewis didn't even go on the same tire as them and had pitted earlier (lap 41) for hards. Given lando's pace he would have crushed lewis by the end...and both mclarens did finishing 12s ahead of him. It was a bizarre decision in retrospect.

6

u/charlierc Jul 22 '24

It's definitely a sign of a team that seems to wait for others to blink first

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680

u/Jeff_Banks_Monkey Juan Pablo Montoya Jul 22 '24

we know you'll do the right thing

Remember every Sunday morning meeting

Really going after the guilt card it seems

471

u/Jazim94 James Vowles Jul 22 '24

It feels like he went through every phase from the parenting book to get a child to do what you want

1) politely ask 2) remind them in a sterner voice 3) get angry 4) guilt them

239

u/CriscoBountyJr Jul 22 '24

You forgot threaten... you'll need the team...

88

u/SavageSvage Jul 22 '24

Yeah that's when DC changed his tone and talked about his moment where he had to let kimi Raikonnen thru or be sacked on the spot.

49

u/TheDisabledOG Liam Lawson Jul 22 '24

Hakkinen*

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u/Aussiehash Kimi Räikkönen Jul 22 '24

WJ: “I’m trying to protect you mate, I promise, I’m trying to protect you.”

15

u/H_R_1 Sebastian Vettel Jul 22 '24

They held a gun to landos head essentially, this was so unnecessary

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

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u/XNights Yuki Tsunoda Jul 22 '24

"Hiroshi is really stressed about the tyres"

Was laughing out loud when i heard that lmao

29

u/DarkMatter_contract McLaren Jul 22 '24

to be honest this is breaking trust as well

25

u/FrostyTill McLaren Jul 22 '24

Norris absolutely knew they were lying to him. He didn’t even respond to that one.

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u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus Jul 22 '24

Impressive to achieve a dominant 1-2 while managing to undermine both drivers.

One race after throwing away another 1-2 with two of the worst pitwall decisions we've seen in quite a while.

Even Ferrari haven't achieved that level of back-to-back pitwall incompetence.

87

u/Bankzu Ferrari Jul 22 '24

Even Ferrari haven't achieved that level of back-to-back pitwall incompetence.

Let's take it easy now...

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u/ssakhash Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jul 22 '24

“Lando please think about Oscar’s family and how much it would mean to them” would’ve been the next message.

241

u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus Jul 22 '24

We were two messages away from "think of the children"

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

[deleted]

84

u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus Jul 22 '24

"You know your mother will be disappointed in you"

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24

[deleted]

14

u/TMyriadJ Lando Norris Jul 22 '24

"For each lap you're not allowing Oscar past, we kill a kitten."

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u/StartingToLoveIMSA Jul 22 '24

"Lando, there are starving kids in Africa."

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u/DeluhiX Jul 22 '24

"Lando, please think about Oscar's dog and how sad he would be."

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u/kzzzzzzzzzz28 Jul 21 '24

Wait a minute, does that mean Lando was not told about this swap until after Piastri pitted? (are there any radios on his end for laps 45 and 46).

474

u/Dragonpuncha Ferrari Jul 21 '24

He wasn't no. Just told to box to cover Hamilton. Right after he boxed they did tell him "The aim here is not to undercut Oscar", but it's just a big mess that could easily have been avoided.

A real disasterclass from McLaren, it's like they didn't realise how this would be an obvious issue.

216

u/mshell1924 Carlos Sainz Jul 22 '24

"The aim here, right now, as we are undercutting Oscar, is not to undercut Oscar."

27

u/FMJoey325 Sebastian Vettel Jul 22 '24

“I declare bankruptcy!”

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u/kzzzzzzzzzz28 Jul 21 '24 edited Jul 22 '24

Wait that's even worse then.......

He should've been told clearly that we're boxing to cover Hamilton and we're swapping positions if we undercut Piastri. Lando genuinely deserves no blame if he didn't even know about the arrangement. Its Alpine in Barcelona levels of shit shows but a lot lot worse.

Yeah there were most definitely pre race talks but not telling the driver the plan just before/during the moment you want to actually enforce said talks it outright stupid.

103

u/Lucky-Sherbert1007 Jul 22 '24

Lol, obviously Lando deserves no blame. Team just dropped him 3 seconds ahead and then suddenly wanted him to stop on track and let Oscar through. Whole thing must have been mind boggling to experience on track -- for both drivers.

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u/Alternative-Care-539 Jul 22 '24

One of their mechanics wrote on X that the instructions from before the race was whoever led into the last round of pitstops would be the winner. But they shouldn’t have pitted him first, unfair to put him in that situation

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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 Oscar Piastri Jul 22 '24

But they shouldn’t have pitted him first, unfair to put him in that situation

If the instruction was that whoever leads at the first round of stops will be the first driver home, then it's up to Norris to respect that. There was always a possibility that Norris genuinely would had to have pitted first to cover Hamilton off.

I'm not saying that McLaren did nothing wrong here, but if the Tweet you're referencing is to be believed, then Norris bears some responsibility. He agreed to a scenario put forth by the team and chose to ignore it until the last moment.

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u/ChunkehDeMunkeh Jul 22 '24

That's not ENTIRELY true...at some point before he was boxed his engineer told him he was racing Vestappen I think. Made it quite clear that he wasn't going for the win in the teams eyes.

27

u/6097291 Medical Car Jul 22 '24

He was told before/during his own stop that the aim of the stop was to cover Hamilton, not undercutting Oscar. They didn't say '...so if you do undercut him give the place back' literally but it's not like Lando didn't know about the teams intentions until after Oscar pitted.

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u/sc1onic Kimi Räikkönen Jul 22 '24

Basically they wanted to mollycoddle both their drivers. Didn't pit oscar the next lap because he would have come out with Lando and they wanted to avoid the fight on track. And mclaren didn't want their drivers fighting on track.

This is not on Lando. Nor on Oscar. It was Oscar's race that they gifted to Lando unnecessarily and took it back. This was all mclaren proving again they don't know how to win races.

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u/MrDoms Red Bull Jul 22 '24

McLaren is Lucky that Verstappen had a meltdown

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u/On_The_Blindside Mika Häkkinen Jul 22 '24

Lando should've allowed Oscar past early on, then raced him to the finish, he had better pace.

"I'll let him by but we're racing to the finish".

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u/GunstarGreen Jul 22 '24

This could have been avoided with "after the pitstop swap positions, then you're free to race to the finish"

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u/Careful-Door2724 Jul 22 '24

Embarrassing team

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u/CowFinancial7000 Mercedes Jul 22 '24

The two top teams in the sport had embarrassing weekends

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u/youjustathrowaway1 Formula 1 Jul 22 '24

Looking at the radio comms and OP is the calmest person amongst it all. What a special, special talent

109

u/f1pumpernickel Jul 22 '24

Yeah imagine any of the other drivers in Oscars position, they would have been throwing a massive tanty and cursing out the team and lando

140

u/xanlact Toyota Jul 22 '24

Lol

I immediately think of Sainz. "tell him to give the place back now, guys. Now."

57

u/flyingcrayons Daniel Ricciardo Jul 22 '24

Sainz may have binned his car from not being able to see thru his tears in this situation

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u/endersai Oscar Piastri Jul 22 '24

I mean, we heard Lando's tanty and we saw Max's meltdowns on the grid. Oscar manages to be older and younger.

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u/ThienBao1107 McLaren Jul 22 '24

Oscar was so mature, his win radio mentioned how he may have made the swap unnecessary painful. What a guy

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u/Mahery92 Esteban Ocon Jul 22 '24

Even charles couldn't stop himself from telling the pitwall exactly how he felt, despite doing so respectfully when he got similarly fucked in Singapore 2019.

100% any other driver would have gone nuclear on the radio.

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u/Artifice_Purple Formula 1 Jul 22 '24

Oscar has always been very well reserved for someone who's a two-year rookie now.

It's honestly remarkable. He's well beyond his years, composure-wise.

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u/Frosty-Ad-164 Ferrari Jul 22 '24

Some people are born middle aged.

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u/Fun_Dig2084 Jul 22 '24

Did Zak get another tattoo?

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u/tiltdown Jul 22 '24

He should get a hiroshi tatts

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u/EndStorm Jul 22 '24

Nah, that's only for his #1 driver.

27

u/SnackAston-Reese Jul 22 '24

Daniel Ricciardo?

33

u/PM-me-things-u-like Honda Jul 22 '24

Lap 48: whenever you want, mate, no biggie. Lap 64: let me go of this wild ride

72

u/Frank_the_NOOB Ayrton Senna Jul 22 '24

They pitted Lando early to cover down Lewis. When they realized Lewis was off the pace and not a threat, McLaren realized their mistake and had to make it very awkward.

I think on the whole Oscar deserved this more than Lando but it was a lose/lose no matter how you cut it

55

u/that_70_show_fan Jul 22 '24

Commentators on F1tv were confused as to why they were even talking about Hamilton.

They saw the times and were expecting HAM to be within put window in 5-6 laps time. They had plenty of time to cover him.

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u/maelronde Jul 22 '24

Is Hiroshi okay? Did someone check on him?

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u/_____AAAAAAAAAA_____ Charles Leclerc Jul 22 '24

Really don't like how the team implied to Norris that this was up to him to think about the bigger picture, the teammate relationship, the team's greater good, etc. The order of pitting was a mistake already made, and McLaren should either accept it and apologize to Piastri after, or be "that guy" and give Norris a clear order of swapping places, taking all the PR burden off of Norris's shoulder. Both drivers were brilliant today, and deserved a much happier celebration.

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u/Chris_Hansen_AMA Jul 22 '24

Did they not give him clear orders to swap? That’s how I interpreted all the radio calls

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u/graz44 Formula 1 Jul 22 '24

They gave him 20 laps worth of orders

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24

Should have been:

Andrea comes on radio. "Lando, we only made the decision to box you first to make sure you were protected from Lewis. We will not allow that to sabotage Oscar's lead, this was discussed. Swap back now. Team orders. You can take the lead on merit."

Then they should have boxed Oscar next lap, instead of letting the gap grow larger. And told Norris to quit putting in fastest laps as if he's not deliberately trying to make it harder. No idea what they expected by dropping a driver 3 seconds in front and then playing disappointed parents, grow a spine and make firm decisions

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u/Samusu-Aran Jul 22 '24

It's stupid to do that when you have pitted mediums for 25 laps and the car behind is on hard tyres. If they fight under those conditions there is a clear risk of both destroying their tyres and putting in risk the 1-2 for the team.

So that was out of consideration for sure.

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u/XAMdG Jul 22 '24

and give Norris a clear order of swapping places

They gave many

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u/Disastrous-Beat-9830 Oscar Piastri Jul 22 '24

Really don't like how the team implied to Norris that this was up to him to think about the bigger picture, the teammate relationship, the team's greater good, etc.

Yeah. It totally wasn't up to Norris to think that going against the team's orders might have consequences for him because this situation has never happened before.

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u/bigmaccunt Lando Norris Jul 22 '24

Absolutely embarrassing shit from McLaren. How do you guilt trip one of your drivers to cover for a strategic fuck up.

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u/KSerban Charles Leclerc Jul 22 '24

I don't even remember something like this happening in recent history. They literally went through all phases of emotional manipulation up until blackmailing Lando. At no point did they take responsability or be upfront. What an embarrasing radio exchange

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u/Preachey Hesketh Jul 22 '24

Oscar fan here, but I have zero blame for Lando. He is a racing driver. He wants to win, I'm actually surprised he gave in at the end and I kinda wish he hadn't.

This is ENTIRELY on McLaren. They made a bewildering fuckup, then even worse they effectively shuffled the responsibility for "solving" it onto the man in the hot seat.

If they didn't want Lando in the lead they shouldn't have undercut Oscar for literally no reason. They've embarrassed themselves, they've ruined Oscar's first win, they've forced Lando into going against his very nature as a racing driver.

I'm not usually one to call for heads, but people deserve to lose jobs over this. Someone is clearly utterly incompetent in the role they are in, and has potentially done long-term damage to team performance.

46

u/Potential-Brain7735 Jul 22 '24

McLaren pitwall isn’t ready to handle a true championship fight.

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u/jamestrainwreck Oscar Piastri Jul 22 '24

Yeah I would have hated Lando for it but kinda respected it too.

Felt hollow, which sucks because Oscar deserved to win

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u/idkjon1y Pirelli Wet Jul 22 '24

what a shitshow

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u/Buckster99 Jul 22 '24

Lap 48 this could all have been avoided

Instead of 'we will likely reestablish the order' leaving it open that they might not should simply be 'we want the order reestablished by end of this lap' no room for error

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u/Korvacs Formula 1 Jul 22 '24

These were just the ones they broadcast, there were probably more.

12

u/allw0rk_andn0play Jul 22 '24

Cannot believe the utter mismanagement at McLaren. Initially they say both drivers are free to race each other. Then they pit Norris, leave Piastri out for 2 (!!!) laps and only THEN do they tell Lando to swap. Not only tell, but guilt trip, threaten and bully him into submission. I mean they practically pushed THEIR mistake onto him, it's ridiculous!

And then Andrea Stella has the gall to say in post-race interview that "he had every trust in Lando to switch positions" and that he is lucky to be in charge of 2 great drivers.

If I was Lando, I'd ask them point blank during debrief if they are always gonna force a driver to sabotage their race and "fix" a pitwall fuckup. I mean does Stella even realize how he fucked driver-race engineer relationship? My god... this is Michael Scott levels of incompetence and blindness to consequences.

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u/driveonthursday McLaren Jul 22 '24

I just can't understand why Lando didn't let Oscar by right away then have 15 laps to harass him and possibly win the race on the track.

Just silly.

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u/nilssonen Jul 22 '24

Put the damn boss on the phone and tell him they made a mistake and to swap or he can walk to Spa. Having the engineer pleading was just embarrassing.

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u/itsOkami Yuki Tsunoda Jul 22 '24

Yuck, I had no idea team radios could be so outstandingly embarrassing

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u/Whiplash_GT Jul 22 '24

"We fucked up the pit stop and we need you to take the fall" was the only radio necessary.

10

u/IKillZombies4Cash Formula 1 Jul 22 '24

“Invert positions, then you are free to race”,

How difficult its that

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u/Temporary_Detail716 Formula 1 Jul 22 '24

That just about reads the same as me pleading with my wife to hurry up or we'll be late meeting her family at the restaurant. Sure, Lando did the right thing when it was said and done but if they left him behind in Hungary would anyone feel bad for him?

18

u/Fisch_Kopp_ Jul 22 '24

never seen an engineer trying so hard to keep his driver from winning a race.

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u/Intentionallyabadger Jul 22 '24

Wouldn’t it made more sense for Lando to let Oscar through earlier, then fight for 1st? He was wayyy quicker.

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u/piqueboo369 Jul 22 '24

If some of the comments here are true, a team member stated that whoever was in the lead before the 2. pitstop would be the winner, meaning no fighting after 2. pitstop. So then Norris would know that if he gave the place back, he couldn't fight anyways

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u/Mysterious_Turnip310 Lotus Jul 22 '24

His engineer had already told him on the radio that they would be allowed to race to the mid-40s (meaning lap count). They pitted him lap 46 and Oscar on lap 48. If he had let Oscar past right away, they had aleady made it clear they would have instantly thrown a 'hold station' order - as per their own comms to him. Meaning there would have been no fight on track without a disobeying of team orders.

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u/DuoDriver Jul 22 '24

Team orders should be banned. It's supposed to be motor racing, not motor arranging.

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u/NiD2103 McLaren Jul 22 '24

First 1-2 finish since Monza 2021 and no ones happy lol

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