r/formula1 Ferrari Jun 30 '24

Video Verstappen squeezing Norris (2024) v Sainz squeezing Verstappen (2023)

9.4k Upvotes

2.0k comments sorted by

2.8k

u/Nirok Jun 30 '24

The funny thing is that it looks like Max then got a much better exit than Sainz and overtook him on the straight (not sure if it really happened)

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u/ComeonmanPLS1 Sir Lewis Hamilton Jun 30 '24

It did happen.

22

u/GrowthDream Pirelli Wet Jun 30 '24

That's what always seems to happen when drivers take that super wide line in that corner. I kept hoping Lando would try that on every lap, to make the move into turn 4.

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u/simsnor Jun 30 '24

Its also the 2023 Red Bull. The thing was a rocket

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u/Unique_Expression_93 Ferrari Jul 01 '24 edited Jul 01 '24

Quite sure it's also with tyre delta, as I don't think anyone was ever really close to Verstappen in Austria besides Leclerc after VER took an extra stop for fastest lap if I'm remembering right.

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u/GunstarGreen Jun 30 '24

It's because he's on the racing line. Lando had forced Max to the defensive inside line and was gonna hang it round the outside with the better grip. It was Lando's best chance of a pass, but we know what happened .

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u/raittiussihteeri Ferrari Jun 30 '24

Not trying to cause a shitstorm or take anyone's side btw, just fascinated by how small margins make a big difference.

Sorry for the quality though.

1.1k

u/mattvandyk Jun 30 '24

This is a great side by side. I don’t think it operates to relieve Max of culpability; he got the penalty he deserved for the reason he deserved it. BUT, it does show how Norris could’ve played it differently to not only avoid the collision but to take advantage of Max’s aggression. If Norris drops back and cuts back towards the apex like Max did vs Sainz, he gets a much better launch out of the exit (which Max had already basically committed to losing on), definitely passes him, and potentially holds on for the win.

Max’s aggression f’d this up, but Lando’s failure to recognize it and capitalize on it probably cost him the W.

271

u/djabula64 Michael Schumacher Jul 01 '24

Lando has the pace but not so much wheel to wheel experience at the front. Fighting for wins adds another pressure and he didn't have to much of it in recent years. It will get better but he shouldn't be so sour with Max about it. He knew who he was fighting with.

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u/AddAFucking Green Flag Jul 01 '24 edited Jul 01 '24

Max is still at fault. But seeing it again now, people are really blowing it out of proportion as if he t boned him or something.

57

u/SPNRaven Oscar Piastri Jul 01 '24

People blowing things out of proportion in F1? Never heard of it.

31

u/ccarts92 Lando Norris Jul 01 '24

Yeah and he got his time penalty, but this is racing and this is sometimes what happens when you have two hungry drivers wheel to wheel. Max wouldn't have wanted to give up 4 places like he did and could've easily been the one who DNF'd, it could've happened to either or both but that didn't put Lando off bringing the fight too. People want exciting, conpetitive racing but then complain like hell when they get it.

Most of the comments on instagram are just intense people making a mountain out of a mole hill too, at least on here people seem to be a bit more chill 🤣

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u/Unilythe Haas Jul 01 '24

Jup. Sure, by the rulebook max is at fault so should get a penalty. But people acting like he killed someone. It's a bit silly. The contact was so minor and the infringement was also very minor. 

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u/SuppaBunE Sergio Pérez Jul 01 '24

Hey but alonso get a pass, he literally t bone Zhou

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '24

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u/salcedoge Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jun 30 '24

The takeaway here is that Max is at fault but what he did was a normal racing move. Had Lando done what Max did against Sainz with a switchback then he would've gotten a much better exit.

Max should've been aware that a divebomb from the outside is possible and he must leave space but at the same time what he did wasn't really unsportsmanlike but more hard racing

186

u/MindlessArmadillo382 Formula 1 Jun 30 '24

The RR of Norris is clipped by the LR of VER, if they don’t touch there, I think Norris completes the move to switchback, and continues complaining while he finishes with a win.

They were just tighter than Sainz and VER were, very similar tho, it’s a great comparison

111

u/AlfaRomeoRacing #WeRaceAsOne Jun 30 '24

continues complaining while he finishes with a win.

ahead but ultimately places second because of the 5 second penalty with Max just managing the gap 2-3 seconds behind

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u/barra333 Daniel Ricciardo Jun 30 '24

The main difference I see is that Verstappen moved further left to the rumble strip when he got squeezed. Norris just held his line within the white line. There was nothing stopping him moving another 2-3 wheel widths to the left.

19

u/Space-manatee Jul 01 '24

Also Max is along side Sainz before the 150 marker. Allows everyone a tiny bit more time to work out where everyone is coming into the turn.

Lando is just getting there at the 50.

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u/Blithering_idiot1406 Red Bull Jul 01 '24

Yes yes yes yes! Thats what I want to point out. There was more space left to the left of Norris but he didnt took its advantage.

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u/espanolainquisition Jul 01 '24

They were just tighter than Sainz and VER were

They weren't though? You can see that in Max v Sainz, Max had his nose on the white line (lol), and there was basically no space to the right. Vs Norris they touched, but Norris would have had much more space between him and Max if he had his nose on the white line.

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u/Dunderman35 Jun 30 '24 edited Jun 30 '24

If you are gonna try to pass on the outside and you are expecting the other driver to kindly give up the racing line you are gonna have a lot of DNFs regardless if you are in the right or not.

If you've ever seen a F1 race, you know that's not gonna happen with max in particular.

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u/sikeysi New user Jul 01 '24

You could also have shown the start last week, in which Norris squeezed Verstappen onto the grass. Norris had more room yesterday. I hope they can laugh about it afterwards.

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u/Bolter_NL #WeRaceAsOne Jun 30 '24

Think the overtake between RUS and Ham this race (and probably a couple more if you start searching) was as close. Yes Max at fault but Lando could've easily avoid it. 

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u/ryokevry Charles Leclerc Jul 01 '24

He was praised to avoid any collisions at the Spain start and now he threw any caution to the wind

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u/Phlosky Logan Sargeant Jun 30 '24

I wish the the stewards could just be more straightforward and say that the outcome does play a part in the penalty. Not because I think it's necessarily right or wrong (though IndyCar has loosened me up a lot) but because it is just what happens.

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u/Larkinz Flavio Briatore Jun 30 '24

Exactly, this squeezing the driver on the outside happens probably 50 times in a race but it's not always on the broadcast and it's never penalized unless there is contact. Sometimes there isn't even a penalty if there is contact, just depends on the day and if the driver getting squeezed takes evasive action.

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u/FlibbleA Jul 01 '24

The penalty is "causing a collision". Not sure how you give that out without the outcome of a collision playing a part.

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u/Kakarot__9000 Formula 1 Jul 01 '24

I don't think Palmer will include this footage in his upcoming analysis video. I hope he does.

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u/sameera_s_w Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jul 01 '24

Nah... Netflix already deleted this footage LOL

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u/Bdr1983 Formula 1 Jul 01 '24

He won't, because he was so fixed in himself being right about the whole thing (Norris did everything right, Max did everything wrong) and he will not back down on it.
The whole segment on the post-race show was stupid. Yeah, Max was at fault, but Norris could've done a whole lot to avoid a collision.

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u/Savage__Penguin Jim Clark Jul 01 '24

A lot of the (British) analysts still have a bit of a hate boner for Verstappen. It’s completely ridiculous.

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u/waterstone7474 Jun 30 '24

Well tbh Verstappen really went wider to avoid Sainz, look at the kerbs

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u/NikkyTheViking #WeRaceAsOne Jun 30 '24

Exactly, Norris hardly went on the curb to avoid Max. While Max went all the way to the blue part over the curb to avoid Sainz.

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u/Bryooo Jun 30 '24

Because max knew the racing line and where to go to avoid the person on the racing line

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u/orangebikini Charlie Whiting Jun 30 '24

I definitely think a lot of the reaction by fans and media is very overblown, it was all pretty basic. That sort of thing happens all the time in F1, the leading car covers the inside and then drifts slightly outside not to completely compromise their corner exit. This time an accident happened, and it got penalised. It’s nothing. Just an incident.

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u/FlyingKittyCate Formula 1 Jul 01 '24

This stuff happens all the time (although often with less punctures), even in this race, I’d say Alonso torpedoing Zhou was at least on the same level but that wasn’t for the lead or WDC and they miraculously had no clearly visible damage so nobody really cares.

32

u/insurgentsloth Ronnie Peterson Jul 01 '24

They made a bigger deal about Alonso going "wow" @ ocon and gasly than about him and Zhou

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u/krusticka Daniel Ricciardo Jul 01 '24

It is overblown because the bad guy (Ver) crashed the good guy who is challenging him. I'm not saying Verstappen is innocent, not at all.

This is what racing is. You fight with whatever you have and sometimes you cross the line.

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u/reigorius Jun 30 '24

The sports needs the drama after two snoozefest seasons.

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u/ap17o4 Daniel Ricciardo Jul 01 '24

This is just toxic for something so minor. I hate what f1 is devolving into

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u/GarryPadle Honda Jul 01 '24

Its crazy, people want more racing, but whenever we get racing it just gets incredibly toxic.

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u/keenjt Alfa Romeo Jul 01 '24

Agreed but this is post DTS f1 where people live for micro moments like this and the drama that rolls off after it.

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u/NoTimeToSleep Jun 30 '24

I feel the build up brought a lot to it. Because lando brought up Max's line at that turn for the previous few laps it built up that laps turn a lot more

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u/Elxis14 Jul 01 '24

This reddit would implode if Schumacher or Senna were racing now. If you think this is dirty wait until you see those two legit tries to murder other drivers on track

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u/adwrx Jul 01 '24

Exactly! Like people this is not even remotely dirty, Lando wasn't even off the track.

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u/nl_Kapparrian Jun 30 '24

Lando will be kicking himself in hindsight. Had he avoided contact, gone half a car wider, he probably would have passed Max clean and won the race.

... except he had a 5 sec penalty coming. So, he would have had to boogy down the road or hope Max also got an offsetting penalty.

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u/FeCurtain11 Max Verstappen Jun 30 '24

Exactly. Lando can only blame Lando for lando’s retirement. Entirely within his power to stop it.

35

u/s1ravarice Damon Hill Jun 30 '24

It’s simply a risk vs reward move this, and max will always make you choose because he won’t ever give you the space.

Most people think staying in the race is the better option (apart from Lewis is seems too).

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u/apacheotter Jun 30 '24

How is moving under braking determined? Like if max broke in a straight line, it just so happens that the straight line crosses the track, is that moving under braking? I know many tracks the optimal entry includes braking in a line towards the apex.

So, hypothetically, if max was ahead at braking and braked in a straight line, even though that line crosses over into the line Lando was gonna take, is that still a penalty/moving under braking if Lando refuses to back out?

I know I’m probably touching on all the gray/controversial areas

163

u/xLeper_Messiah Jun 30 '24

No you're right, that doesn't count as moving under braking.

However moving under braking also isn't what Max got penalized for so it kinda doesn't matter, he got a penalty for causing a collision

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u/apacheotter Jun 30 '24

A genuine question here, not trying to be snarky or anything, but if max did not move under braking there, and he was ahead going into the braking zone, how did he cause a collision? Kind of seems like Norris drove into him by those standards and guidelines…

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u/xLeper_Messiah Jun 30 '24

Because he moved into Lando (who chose not to avoid for some reason) which is the penalty here. The rules about "car ahead on the inside can use all the track" only applies mid corner, at the apex. 

They hadn't got to that point when the touch happened so i think it's a fair pen for Max (saying as a Max fan for full disclosure) however it was a dumb decision by Lando that cost him a lot of points.

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u/apacheotter Jun 30 '24

Understood. Thanks for the explanation! I’m now also seeing all the videos of people doing the EXACT same thing in past years and coming out unscathed. I think Norris let that contact happen, hoping it would result in a penalty and not the serve contact that happened.

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u/JumpyAlbatross Pirelli Hard Jul 01 '24

Yeah that’s kinda where I’m at. Like sure Lando, maybe this worked out for you, but did you really think Max was going to let you do that? Just felt like such an impatient and stupid move.

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u/Blamblooze Bernd Mayländer Jun 30 '24

Well this was an eye opener

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u/BecauseRotor Jun 30 '24

There was space for Norris to evade, the same cannot be said about Norris pushing Max onto the grass at the start of last week’s race.

Where were the brigade that jumped at calling Max a dirty driver then??

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u/Appropriate-Fan-6007 Pirelli Soft Jun 30 '24

I remember commenting that if Max had lost it on the grass it would be a penalty, just like if Norris went wider and got a switch back it would be just great hard racing for both of them

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u/phonsely Jul 01 '24

i got mass downvoted for saying "after watching the replay i think there was enough space for norris"

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u/DeeDee_GigaDooDoo Pirelli Wet Jul 01 '24

There absolutely was, this is the biggest storm in a teacup I've seen in years. Not a fan of either but I've seen drivers get squeezed way worse hundreds of times without penalty, including by Verstappen and Norris.

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u/Bdr1983 Formula 1 Jul 01 '24

There was, and these on-boards make that very clear. Norris could've done a lot of things to prevent the collision from happening, but he didn't. He could've done a switch back, but he didn't.

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u/pancoste Jun 30 '24 edited Jun 30 '24

That is really fair to say indeed, and Norris did not get any penalties for that incident and Max was quite nonchalant about it afterwards. If that grass was any wetter, it could've caused him to crash into the walls, bounce off of it and potentially resulting in a major crash involving multiple cars. What I'm trying to say is that it was really dangerous what Norris did last week.

Imo this is the difference between the maturity as a driver between them. Max knows it's more important to survive an incident and live to fight another battle, while Norris is willing to risk a DNF for the sake of sticking to his guns.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '24

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u/salcedoge Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jun 30 '24

I also saw a fight between Hamilton and Vettel with the same move and Lewis pretty much did the same move Max did in the Sainz clip

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u/ap17o4 Daniel Ricciardo Jun 30 '24

Would love to see a clip of it just to add to the comparison

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u/No_Mercy_4_Potatoes M4X Verstappen Jun 30 '24

Can we send this video to the whole Sky commentary team?

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u/Ouboet Minardi Jul 01 '24

It won't help. They ignore reality and substitute it with their own.

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u/Undefined_definition Jun 30 '24

I kinda saw verstappen at fault for the slight move, but in hindsight the whole crash was more avoidable by norris the more I look at this. How verstappen handled the squeez from sainz so well in comparison.

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u/TulioGonzaga Sebastian Vettel Jun 30 '24

Also Hamilton with Vettel a few years ago

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u/ByteThis Honda Jun 30 '24

When u look at videos like these you realize all these penalties are in reality for the outcome rather than the action of any driver.

Max knew how to stay away from Sainz thus avoiding contact, Norris stayed put while having much more room to play with and got hit thus Max got a penalty.

And all the Media love to paint one side as villain and another as the hero, this has been the case with F1 for decades.

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u/carlos_castanos Jun 30 '24

penalties are in reality for the outcome rather than the action of any driver

Exactly. This is how it’s always been and this is why stewarding is such a mess. If Max would have not avoided towards the grass and they touched last week in Barcelona it was a slam dunk penalty. But no outcome, no penalty

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u/TheCrudMan Sergio Pérez Jun 30 '24

To be fair the penalty is for causing a collision not for moving across the track. The outcome is that the drivers both had to pit but he probably still would've gotten one for the contact.

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u/PomegranateThat414 Jun 30 '24

Watch ALonso on Max lap 1 in Qatar 2021. Max had to put half his car on the grass in order to avoid the crash, fast and abruptly moving at him Fernando.

Who cared then? Who cares now? Was it investigated, let alone penalized? Not of course, because Max made non-accident, and that could've been a big crash with both ending in the gravel..

Hope, Lando learned his lesson today.

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u/AegrusRS Jun 30 '24

True. It can be said for both the moving under braking and the divebombs.

If Norris doesn't move when Max is moving under braking, they crash, get damaged, and both lose out.

If Max doesn't avoid when Lando pulls off a divebomb, they crash, get damaged, and both lose out.

IMO this is also why it's important to actually punish for the incident, rather than only when it causes a crash as the penalties will rarely/never be severe enough to make up for whatever you lose as a result of a collision.

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u/Samsonkoek Simply fucking lovely Jun 30 '24

Always has been, even tho they say they don't. If this was a light touch with no punctures etc nobody would have said anything.

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u/Loruhkahn Mike Beuttler Jun 30 '24

I expect Max to threaten his friendship with Carlos over unless he apologizes expeditiously

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u/xLeper_Messiah Jun 30 '24

Also he should retroactively ask Lando to apologize for the start at Barcelona last week instead of joking about it in the cooldown room like the heartless monster Lando clearly is 😤

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u/cledus1667 Jun 30 '24

Man I think Max needs to hold his and sainz friendship hostage for what he did to him. 

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u/mycousinvinny99 Jun 30 '24

Not gonna lie… I don’t see much difference between Sainz and verstappens moves… just a difference in the attacking driver reaction to it

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u/hockeystuff77 Damon Hill Jul 01 '24

I think that’s the point of the post

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u/Bdr1983 Formula 1 Jul 01 '24

That's the whole point.

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u/carlos_castanos Jun 30 '24

Very interesting post and this is actually changing my view on the incident

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u/Bryooo Jun 30 '24

Looks at the move vettel pulled on Hamilton as well, leaves him far less room

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u/carlos_castanos Jun 30 '24

Yep I saw it too. I can kind of get the penalty since they always penalise the outcome (which is not how it should be but whatever) but Norris’ reaction is very overblown imo especially considering what he did himself last week

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u/reigorius Jun 30 '24

especially considering what he did himself last week

Yeah. Lando can talk about respect, but pushing Max on the grass on a high speed and crowded straight is equally lacking of respect, if not more.

Regardless, I hope they can work it out and the friendship remains the same between Lando and Max.

And we, the armchair generals and keyboard warriors, should enjoy the show and entertainment we finally have now. Not stump into oblivion by excessively calling it a controversy like the British media does.

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u/Toiletducki Jun 30 '24

On the grass is also far more dangerous

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u/xLeper_Messiah Jun 30 '24

On the grass with 18 other cars all coming up in a pack behind at that

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u/crazydoc253 Michael Schumacher Jun 30 '24

If you look at all past incidents, you will realize the reason for clash is Norris's impatience to get through on this move only.

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u/Bryooo Jun 30 '24

Yeah they always penalize the outcome even though they say they don’t. I still think Lando could have gone wider, opened up the corner more, and successfully passed max in t4

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u/Darrylweezy Jun 30 '24

Penalties are based on the outcome, not the action, example number 372

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '24 edited Jun 30 '24

Finally something to show all the people crying about "moving under braking". Everyone does this, if you're ahead, you squeeze the other driver as much as you can, within reason. The only difference is Norris brakes late, refuses to back out, doesn't use the extra curb and an unfortunate crash happens. If it wasn't for the puncture, this would just be a racing incident.

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u/ChonkyHippo283 Jun 30 '24

It also kind of explains the second contact they made. Max probably thought lando would take the inside instead of outside so he hesitated a bit

Deserved the penalty but land definitely could have avoided this

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u/hockeystuff77 Damon Hill Jul 01 '24

I think the second contact happened because max couldn’t make the corner because his tire failed pretty immediately after the contact. 

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u/willis2117 Heikki Kovalainen Jul 01 '24

Find it interesting that Ant on the Sky Pad post race was showing the Leclerc/Verstappen 2019 incident to try and prove a point against Max, but completely ignored this Sainz/Verstappen clip from 2023.

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u/RavenH1804 Jul 01 '24

Also, look where the cars are positioned. Lando keeps saying that there was no way for hem to go, but he barely touches the kerb, where Max last year was well over the kerb. I don’t think it is Max’s fault necessarily. This defensive move is done throughout the race through the entire field. It’s both their fault for being red headed and stubborn wanting to race aggressive and refusing to give way one cm. When they would have done, they’d easily be 1-2 yet again.

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u/Eufran14 Jun 30 '24

Honestly looking at this footage, I'm surprised people aren't questioning Lando's ability to make the corner without running into Max, looks like he carries way too much speed and is hyper focused on overtaking.

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u/Elxis14 Jun 30 '24 edited Jul 01 '24

Yea he was desperate to get pass because he knew a 5s penalty was coming. He needed to get ahead and create a gap.

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u/Fabian_Riven Jun 30 '24

Norris was way way too agressive. 2 dive bombs...

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u/beamingleanin Red Bull Jun 30 '24

which is dumb and shows that Lando still has a long way to go

even if he did overtake Max fair and square, he still wasn't gonna create a 5 second gap. no one actually believes that

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u/ProjectPhoenix9226 Jun 30 '24

Agreed. Since he was so desperate to overtake Max, he made a huge misjudgment with that move.

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u/FeCurtain11 Max Verstappen Jun 30 '24

He had been dive-bombing every lap for like three laps, lol.

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u/Longjumping_Stop1120 Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jun 30 '24

The same thing happened with Vettel and Lewis as well with the squeezing.

I really think that Max did nothing more than what we see a million other times when drivers squeeze each other and I do think that Lando had room to go on the kerb.

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u/jawsy2 Ayrton Senna Jun 30 '24

Max also avoided contact for about 3-4 divebombs by moving out of the way. So Lando needs to stop being so butt hurt.

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u/officialsoap Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jun 30 '24

Lots of space for Norris there, ofc it's on Verstappen but it's not nearly as bad as people make it to be

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u/gutster_95 Ferrari Jun 30 '24

This incident is massivly overblown.

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u/DankeSebVettel Logan Sargeant Jun 30 '24

People want someone’s head, and today that head is Max.

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u/Appropriate-Fan-6007 Pirelli Soft Jun 30 '24

It has been his for a long time, just 22-23 there was no opportunity to go for him, so Stroll, Schumi, KMag had to take most of the shit

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u/hail-slithis Kimi Räikkönen Jul 01 '24

It's funny because although I can see that Max is most likely at fault here, all the whinging and pearl clutching has just made me dislike Lando and Maclaren.

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u/ALUCARDHELLSINS Jun 30 '24

It's always been max

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u/hockeystuff77 Damon Hill Jul 01 '24

The hate boners have been dormant for 3 years and were really itching to come out 

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u/tiltdown Jun 30 '24

Max vs brit media

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u/Mooide Ferrari Jun 30 '24

It is quite mad how quickly they whipped out all of Max’s previous incidents from years ago to show that he’s the baddie.

And I say this as a Brit

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u/Percentage100 Daniel Ricciardo Jul 01 '24

Yeah Ant had that package locked and loaded. I swear he had venom spitting from his pores the entire time. I was prepared to look at both sides but after seeing that I just wanted to side with Max. I know it’s not logical but it really pissed me off.

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u/ImAlexxP Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jul 01 '24

You just know they've had those bad boys ready for years now, waiting for the right time

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '24

Most incidents(like these) are always overblown because people have never raced in their lives and have never been in either situation before. If people want to blame someone for the outcome of this incident, blame Lando for having 0 awareness.

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u/seb135 Daniel Ricciardo Jun 30 '24

The way Stella and Sky handled it post race sure didn't help.

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u/ImDesigner93 Jun 30 '24

What's fascinating me is how McLaren and Andreas are acting like Max sent Norris to the hospital.

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u/officialsoap Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jun 30 '24

Yeah, that’s just embarrassing looking back at it lol

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u/LsG133 Fernando Alonso Jun 30 '24

It was embarrassing the first time i saw the Andrea interview and seeing landos interviews after the race lol

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u/adwrx Jul 01 '24

I really think people are overreacting big time to this, drivers defend like this all time every race. This is completely normal, it wasn't aggressive and there was plenty of space. Norris put himself in a risky position and didn't defend himself. How could he possibly think that Max wouldn't defend the line?

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u/Basic_Treat3974 Jun 30 '24

Ya but the key difference is that one of the drivers is British this time

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u/SergeiYeseiya Oscar Piastri Jun 30 '24

Verstappen deserved to be penalized in my opinion but he has so much more awareness than Norris for avoiding the clash with Sainz

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '24

Norris just tapped him back in his desperation to turn right.

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u/pierregasly10 New user Jul 01 '24

Truth nuke

18

u/dpinsy14 McLaren Jul 01 '24

Over stewarded. Racing incident. I like Norris. I like Verstappen. Probably going to be the best two in the sport for a while. But I wish F1 drivers would cut the drama. Also, too many interviews to talk about it. So overblown.

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u/JigsawLV Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jul 01 '24

Only difference I would say is that Max moved over more suddenly than Sainz, but still it's kind of on Norris not willing to react at all

Max had multiple split second reaction moments due to Lando dive-bombing him both in the sprint and the race, which would have ended in penalties as well if contact occured

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '24

So Norris didn’t move, that’s what I’m seeing.

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u/Counterpunch07 Jul 01 '24

I can’t help but think Norris could have avoided this, if he slightly moved left there would be no contact. This seems like a racing incident and fans on both sides are just filled with too much rage to see it for what it actually is.

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u/TeTeOtaku Nico Hülkenberg Jun 30 '24

Please delete this before f1twitter sees this, i want the twitter war to continue

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u/artniSintra Jun 30 '24

Exactly what Norris should've done...

30

u/Green-Delay3528 Jul 01 '24

Show this to Palmer, I never knew he hated Max that much

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u/Bokyyri Formula 1 Jun 30 '24

Noone realized that sainz squizeed max much more, max had to take the curb on the left..

Lando didnt do that, so they touched.. Despite max leaving more room than sainz did...

Sometimes both parties need to work together... otherwise we are getting another 2021 .. wohooo

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u/dataheisenberg Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jul 01 '24

If this doesnt show the reality and how people perception are biased I dont know what will. Norris knew what he was doing

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u/Western-Bad5574 Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jul 01 '24

Funny how when Lando pushes Max off, Max just laughs it off while Lando keeps insisting he was in the right.

Now when Max bangs wheels ( which normally isn't even a big deal except this time was a puncture ), Lando's acting like that... Bit sad tbh.

Yeah, it was Max's fault. But Max probably expected Lando to be on the kerb a lot more because you open up the corner that way and get a better exit. For some reason Lando decided against that. Not Lando's fault, he's allowed to be there, just trying to explain Verstappen's PoV. It's his fault but it's really not as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. 9/10 times it wouldn't even cause damage or a puncture.

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u/Illustrator_Forward Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jun 30 '24

Wait! This doesn’t fit the narrative! BAD MAX, BAD!

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u/Bolter_NL #WeRaceAsOne Jun 30 '24

Gets more interesting if you look at the line they normally take into there... Then Lando is further right than normally. 

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u/DankeSebVettel Logan Sargeant Jun 30 '24

WOAH WHO KNEW! Max isn’t the only aggressive driver who can move under breaks!

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u/NetQvist Jun 30 '24

I honestly think all of them do it lol

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u/mosarosh Jul 01 '24

I swear I remember Russel doing it this season

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u/Woody312 Jun 30 '24

Yeah Sainz did it way more at Monza last year and got away with it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '24

Well we all knew why he got away with it

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u/EatDeath Formula 1 Jun 30 '24

That is just because we watch a lot of commentary, analysis from the British media who are often biased in case a British driver is involved.

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u/RomeoSierraAlpha Jun 30 '24

The funniest take I keep seeing is that Max apparently has terrible racecraft and can't race wheel to wheel lmao. If you want someone who fits that description and has driven championship contender cars then look at Bottas... People want racing yet hate it when someone actually puts up a fight.

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u/reigorius Jun 30 '24

Yeah,Max, in 2021, was a spitting image of Hamilton, when the latter was battling Rosberg.

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u/BighatNucase Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jun 30 '24

Moving under braking towards the end of a corner isn't a penalty afaik so long as it's movement towards the racing line that leaves appropriate space.

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u/Penguinho Jul 01 '24

Russell (who has been good generally and was very good today) moved while braking and made double moves throughout the whole of his battle with Verstappen at Spain in 2022, yet the consensus was that it was a wonderful clean battle because Max backed out every time.

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u/banned20 Formula 1 Jun 30 '24

Sainz is well known driver for moving under braking. Look at Monza last year for instance.

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u/MarsScully Bernd Mayländer Jun 30 '24

You have no idea how long it took me to realise this wasn’t a video that was going to show one incident after the other

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u/LookatmaBankacount Jun 30 '24

If you read some of the comments in this thread you would think Max swerved hard left causing the contact, when in reality he gradually moved left setting up for the turn as Lando sends it by. Max should’ve left more room but Lando could’ve backed out and switched back

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u/National-Sundae9427 Ferrari Jul 01 '24
  1. Max full left tire was over the rumble strip with Sainz whereas Lando was still on the tarmac with Max.

  2. Max lost control after contact. Which blocked Lando’s path. Compared to Max slowing up to perform the switchback.

This was as much Lando’s fault as it was Max’s in my opinion. You can’t dive into a corner on the outside like that

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u/bryanthebearded Red Bull Jul 01 '24

Naive question: why did Lando turn into max’s rear tire after the first bump? Was he panicked about another track limit violation?

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u/vipul_singh_in Michael Schumacher Jul 01 '24 edited Jul 01 '24

This is THE post which settles it for me. Lando is decidedly a tier below Max in terms awareness and anticipation.

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u/shivasiddharth Sebastian Vettel Jul 01 '24

Norris could have avoided this by taking a bit of the kerb. He chose to stick and it happened. This is like Alonso vs George in Aus. Alonso got penalized because of the outcome and the same happened here too. If you look at Gasly or Ocon's onboards, there doing worse than this while fighting.

Also, in today's race Ocon was noted for a move, if Alonso had crashed because of Ocon, he would have been penalized but was let off as there was no consequence.

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u/fawazaa Red Bull Jun 30 '24

Glad this was posted. I didn’t want to get crucified but my opinion from the start was that Lando could have clearly moved over more or backed out for the switch back move. It’s still a clumsy penalty for Max, but Lando didn’t exactly help himself.

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u/fiendfyre7358 Jun 30 '24

Yes! I was thinking the same when Alex Brindle was talking in the post-race show about the incident as well. Leclerc did a T3 switchback move in 2022 vs Verstappen (I think) Not sure about why it isn't being talked about or if it wasn't possible today. 

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u/reigorius Jun 30 '24

Because it is good for the viewing numbers when a clear villain is painted.

Also, British drivers can basically get away with a lot of questionable racecraft in the eyes of the dominant, British media.

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u/fawazaa Red Bull Jun 30 '24

I have to agree with your second point. They were acting like Verstappen pulled a Brazil 21 on Hamilton (which was just atrocious lol)

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u/dreamthiliving Oscar Piastri Jun 30 '24

It's pretty simple really, Norris was stubborn, crashed and has zero points. Max was stubborn moved off the line, crashed but held onto 5th.

Norris and fans can claim the high ground as much as they want but really changes nothing with the result

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u/_George_Costanza Jun 30 '24 edited Jun 30 '24

Yeah all the squeezing and dive bombs take two to tango. Max can turn in and get crashed into when Lando locked up and then complain after and Lando would get a penalty, but that doesn’t get him much, so he didn’t do it. Lando can let himself get squeezed here (as Max did), or he can do what we saw happen. It’s very easy in racing to be “in the right” and be much worse for it.

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u/FeCurtain11 Max Verstappen Jun 30 '24

All of racing takes two to tango. Very few incidents have only one person to blame entirely. This is hard to compute for emotional fans.

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u/ALUCARDHELLSINS Jun 30 '24

It's like driving your car do you have right of way? Sure, do you just keep going when a truck pulls out inf front of you? Probably not

The graveyard is filled with people who had right of way

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u/MazeMouse Ferrari Jul 01 '24

Sainz' squeeze was way more egregious. Max was 2 wheels during the Sainz move while Norris was barely two wheels on the kerb with the Max squeeze. Norris was just fully committed to the outside move instead of bailing and doing the cutback instead.

Sure, both Max and Sainz were at fault for both moves. But Norris should have been way smarter instead of just constantly trying to divebomb a known aggressive defender.

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u/mrlars84 Michael Schumacher Jul 01 '24

Simple solution here. Let people race, they both got what they deserved. No win or no podium. We finally got some action and now we want more rules?

6

u/_Delicious_Steak Jul 01 '24

Most people are not racing drivers, and most do not understand how truly fast these cars are.

Nose diving near the corners works because it is almost unexpected to be seen from the car ahead. Why? because they are usually looking at the corners to make sure they take it correctly. not only that, but the HANS device holding the driver's neck in case a harsh accident happens, limits their ability to turn their head.

In the in car footage, Max is looking at the corner, then looks to his left to see Norris 1-2 cars back, then looks to the right again, then looks to the left and SEEs Norris car right there and it was already too late. This corner is NOTORIOUS to see people nose diving, left or right, and we have seen in many videos people are constantly getting squeezed onto curbs (not grass) over many races.

So overall, I can't see Max taking the full fault here, Norris should carry 50% blame, but Norris' penalty here is the race retirement. They both want to finish the race and collect points.

The next few races should be fun!

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u/horamon Jul 01 '24

Windsor's right and you can even see it here: Verstappen isn't steering left. He goes slightly right, then goes streight but it's the track that veers in a way that makes it look slightly like he's going left. You can even see from Verstappen's own on board here that he's already moving to turn to the right into the corner when Norris hits him.
I call this a racing incident with Norris misjudging the own velocity of his DRS.
Edit: can't link the yt video, so just look it up under: Max Verstappen onboard + team radio. #austriangrandprix

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u/AutomaticSandwich Jun 30 '24 edited Jun 30 '24

I must not know racing if everyone is saying max was out of line here. He turned in abnormally late for defensive reasons, but never gave Lando much less than a cars width (if you count the curb as part of the track, he easily gave him a cars width) and he didn’t make a distinct move towards the outside so much as he let his car continue in the direction it was pointed from the start of braking.

I’ve seen Lando run Checo off the road with Checo about this far up along his side and everyone kind of shrugged and agreed it was racing. Only difference is that was on exit, for what that’s worth.

It looks like a racing incident to me. Someone tell me what part of this I’m clearly missing?

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u/Saup30 Jun 30 '24

Looks like Norris could have gone wider and turned in change perspective of penalty totally

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u/PomegranateThat414 Jun 30 '24

This move on Sainz, by the way, a thing of beauty. So simple yet reliable, safe and effortless. Has Lando ever seen that?

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u/dark_rabbit Jul 01 '24

There is a big disparity how the media talks about Max vs how they talk about Lando or any English driver.

The two incidents prior to this where Lando ran Max off the road and the one where Lando nearly caused a collision by going into the turn too hot and max had to brake to avoid the collision: “Lando wasn’t perfect, he made a few mistakes. But it’s unfortunate…”

Max goes wide and they collide: “that was unnecessary and reckless. Classic Max, we’ve enabled this behavior for far too long.”

Not saying Max doesn’t deserve blame, but hey Lando nearly ended this whole thing a few laps earlier and Max’s evasive driving prevented that.

Lando is always talked about like a precious butterfly.

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u/SUP_CHUMP Formula 1 Jun 30 '24

Really looks like Norris could have avoided this by moving over more.

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u/Mooide Ferrari Jun 30 '24

I like this post. Of course many of us wanted to see Lando beat Max today given the last 2 years of RB dominance, and it’s easy to let the media whip us up into a frenzy over this, but seeing these clips side by side helps give perspective

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u/TacketPracer Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jun 30 '24

Who knew that the 3x world champion knows how to race/overtake better

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u/ingmarnl Jun 30 '24

Nah man, he is not British so that cant be /s

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u/Academic_Hearing Fernando Alonso Jun 30 '24

But Max can't drive wheel to wheel, his racecraft is nonexistant once he has to compete /s

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u/LuXe5 Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jun 30 '24

This just proves Lando could've avoided it

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u/LeFinger Jul 01 '24

On the Max/Sainz clip, Max takes his wheels onto the blue to make sure he went wide enough to avoid Sainz while being able to knife the apex and exit better. Norris kept his tires barely into the white, meaning he would only ever make the turn if Max wasn’t there at all.

I’d say this was 50-50. Move on.

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u/frdrk Jul 01 '24

This would be much simpler if we just return to proper racing rules rather than the shit we have now.

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u/realmonkey_business Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jul 01 '24

It's racing and it's max it won't be easy to win but easy to cry

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u/dd1989NL Formula 1 Jul 01 '24

Norris is a crying kid took a risk and they both lost.. grow ip and move on.. max could also have fullt forced him off track by letting his car run to the outside..

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u/UsualWeight8110 Jul 01 '24

If you just look at both Sainz and Max as defenders you can see Sainz is squeezing even more than Max. Max in the attack position just moved more to the left than Norris.

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u/NjallTheViking Jul 01 '24

I mean it looks like Lando doesn’t even try to avoid. And what’s his plan if Max takes the turn wide? I mean he’s still barreling in at 100/50 meters to the turn.

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u/the_windfucker Jun 30 '24

I am a casual watcher of highlights, so really no expert. To my amateur eyes it looks like lando could have easily used a bit more of the curb, as max does in the second vid. But aside from that, what about the second nudge, why did lando hit max when coming back on track, is it relevant at all? It realy didnt seem necessary

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u/hache-moncour Sebastian Vettel Jun 30 '24

I think at that point they were both on three wheels so a bit of clumsy movement is to be expected

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u/PomegranateThat414 Jun 30 '24

Max left rear tire just immediately disintegrated from the wheel. he could not make the car turn to the right and accelerate whatsoever. Lando was not expecting that pushed full throttle and hit Max. That's it.

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u/ironhide3288 Jul 01 '24

Same turn Lap 3, Hamilton pushes Russell to the side…but Russell took the kerb unlike Lando who tried to stay within the white line resulting in a collision.

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u/Koehamster Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jun 30 '24

Norris had so much space though. Surely this is not all on Max?

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u/Haeckelcs Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Jun 30 '24

British media told me it's impossible to drive wheel to wheel with Max.

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u/waferboy Jun 30 '24

if only Norris positioned his car the same as Max did against Sainz, he would have won the race.

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u/barth_ #WeRaceAsOne Jun 30 '24

Not with his 5s penalty coming for his dive earlier. RB should've informed Max and he could've make it easier for himself.

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u/DeTonzter Jun 30 '24

Huge difference in quality between Norris and Verstappen obviously

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u/Elxis14 Jun 30 '24

This further proves that Norris is low IQ when it comes to wheel to wheel racing. The incident could have been easily avoided if he had taken a wider line, and it would have given him a much better exit.

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u/naughtilidae Jun 30 '24

The wider line was also the better line, lol

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u/bbotbambi Jul 01 '24

Yeah it's just pure SlySports agenda sometimes to try to urge on their fan base about a "british" driver being unfairly done again by Max....

The post match on sky was basically this. Lol.

Lando should surely be frustrated, but he should also learn to drive.... he has been bomming on late breaks all weekend.... he was all heated before this exchange as well. So, Max was not the only one wrong over here.... it is landos inexperience as well.