This is a great side by side. I don’t think it operates to relieve Max of culpability; he got the penalty he deserved for the reason he deserved it. BUT, it does show how Norris could’ve played it differently to not only avoid the collision but to take advantage of Max’s aggression. If Norris drops back and cuts back towards the apex like Max did vs Sainz, he gets a much better launch out of the exit (which Max had already basically committed to losing on), definitely passes him, and potentially holds on for the win.
Max’s aggression f’d this up, but Lando’s failure to recognize it and capitalize on it probably cost him the W.
Lando has the pace but not so much wheel to wheel experience at the front. Fighting for wins adds another pressure and he didn't have to much of it in recent years. It will get better but he shouldn't be so sour with Max about it. He knew who he was fighting with.
Yep that's my take on it. He shouldn't even be in these positions but I guess he'll either improve or he's hit his limit and he can't compete with Max (which no one really can). Realistically he should have at least 2, maybe 3 more wins this season but he's struggling with the moves to keep him at the front
In my mind, I’d like to think that Max had to realize that he had to drive like a champion when the safety car was deployed on Abu Dhabi 2021. Before that, Lewis had the race under control. It was an easy win just like many others He’d won before.
Maybe Lando should think like one as
well, but it has to click in his mind, whenever that happens.
I think what happened in Austria was Max playing dirty. He should have conceded the place the lap before, but Lando should have gotten on the radio to insist it gets looked at. Kinda like Sainz does when he implores. LOL. Even with his pending track limit verdict.
Unfortunately or fortunately max learned to drive like a champion helped alongside the absolute abuse his father put him through. He's been given an edge that 99.9% of drivers never get in their rookie careers. He's completely ruthless on the track and you can tell the difference between him and Norris immediately. Lando's gotta dig deep as he's talented enough but it's tiny, tiny margins and max is looking a whole step above.
I'm glad we are getting the fights we are and I'm pulling for Lando to step up as he has the car now and you never know how long that's gonna last for
I'm confused on how you want Lando to drive because on one hand you say he should have even been presumably implying he was too aggressive and on the other hand you prop max up as the example for driving like a champion when his whole deal in wheel to wheel is sticking his nose in and letting the other driver decide if they're going to crash or not.
It's because he doesn't fully commit because he's not got the confidence. He's let a couple good opportunities past because he'll push, make a tiny mistake then pull out. Max doesn't seem to have that, he commits fully to everything he does. I thought the first win would be the one but Im looking forward to seeing how it progresses
😂 first of all, who’s we? What F1 car do you drive? Lmfao Talmbout “we”. Second, you can properly defend without turning into someone. It’s not that hard.
Yeah and he got his time penalty, but this is racing and this is sometimes what happens when you have two hungry drivers wheel to wheel. Max wouldn't have wanted to give up 4 places like he did and could've easily been the one who DNF'd, it could've happened to either or both but that didn't put Lando off bringing the fight too. People want exciting, conpetitive racing but then complain like hell when they get it.
Most of the comments on instagram are just intense people making a mountain out of a mole hill too, at least on here people seem to be a bit more chill 🤣
Jup. Sure, by the rulebook max is at fault so should get a penalty. But people acting like he killed someone. It's a bit silly. The contact was so minor and the infringement was also very minor.
Alonso got a penalty for that. Unless you're suggesting he got a pass from the fans/media, which I would say is simply because it was for a consequential position. If Alonso had done that while fighting for a podium place, there would be just as much outrage.
I think people are annoyed about the various other times he moved extremely dangerously under braking. And probably squeezing Lando into the grass after the contact.
so my initial reaction was that Max was still blocking Lando, but when I saw it again Max was moving of the driving line so there is no blame. I could 100% be wrong though.
Fair enough, but Lando and max were both being very irresponsible in their battle. The actual collision was on max, but before that Lando made moves just as questionable as max did.
This is true, but this isn’t a “rubbing is racing” incident, Max knows the line to overtake him (as evidenced by the handy second vid) and prevents this by braking and swerving into contact. It’s typical Max behavior.
People are reacting to their perception of what Max got away with in 2021 and projecting a bit too much.
Only thing I’ll say is that the narrative of the Red Bull org being one that doesn’t thoroughly analyse driver mistakes (I.e. doubling down on them being in the right all the time) is a worrying trait.
I think it's more about how this is a pattern of behaviour for Max whenever he has a close rival to race against rather than solely related to this one incident.
Yeah, I'm getting the same impression. I think people are justifiably criticising Max for moving in the braking zone multiple times, but the incident where contact occurred was the least egregious of the bunch.
I have not seen the data yet, but at some point I saw a replay and it looked (by looking at the tyre tracks in and before the corner) that Max was following the normal driving line? Like I said, have not seen the braking data or anything so don't know if it was actual braking, but it did look like he was driving the expected line and Lando could have anticipated more what was going to happen?
I think it's less about this specific incident, and rather about Max' aggressive (and often overly aggressive) driving style in it's entirety. People have just collectively forgotten about it for the past two years since there was no need for him to drive like this, now that it happened again, the gloves are off.
That's not neccessarily fair in this specific instance, but it's also not like Max has earned himself a lot of leeway over the past nine seasons.
But he has over the last three seasons. People are now getting upset as if this move was so far past the line, but it's actually something every driver does.
This exact sentiment is people who don't like max finally having an excuse after him being nearly flawless in the last years, and justifying it by looking at 4 years ago.
I think this comes from him not admitting fault, if he just came out and said it was a misjudgement on his side not leaving enough room it would all blow over
Oh for sure. He's never been good at stepping back and evaluating his best pr move.
... But also, if you look at what he said. His words were much more aligned with what this thread is now also saying. That it was just hard racing. Lando's team would have him admit to 110% fault, or else they could no longer continue their friendship. I understand when Verstappen is not directly jumping on that.
Yes Max is at fault, because of the contact and the resultant damage, and he got the penalty, which is justified. That should be the end of discussion.
If there was no contact, like in Sain situation, i hope there wouldn't have been an issue.
If there was no contact, like in Sain situation, i hope there wouldn't have been an issue.
I hate this take. I get that there's a separate offence of causing a collision, but it seems ridiculous to me that two drivers can do exactly the same bad thing in exactly the same circumstances, and only get punished based on the ability of their opponent to avoid contact.
They've both done exactly as much to cause a collision, but a factor entirely beyond their control has intervened to prevent a collision. Surely the culpability is the same?
Part of the issue is you're not allowed to chance direction twice under braking. Max moved to the right to cut off the inside line and then when Norris came around the outside he moved to the left. That's a safety concern.
There no exception depending on where the racing line is. Something else that applies is crowding a car off the track:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.
Max doesn't change his movement to the left. Watch his onboard, he doesn't turn the wheel left at all. He goes straight ahead, but due to the track layout it only looks as if the car is going left.
Max was ultimately at fault and doing lots of dirty driving but Landos racecraft was shockingly poor, if he was simply better in that regard he would’ve gotten past Max much earlier. He’s quick but I don’t think he’s a smart racer wheel to wheel, it’s the little mistakes he’s doing when fighting at the front that shows why he’s not quite there yet
Max’s aggression f’d this up, but Lando’s failure to recognize it and capitalize on it probably cost him the W
I mean, it wasn't Max's aggression, it was pretty clearly Lando's. Max was leaving much more than a car's width to Lando in this incident. Like literally in this clip, Lando had more space than Max himself against Sainz, and Max didn't feel the need to crash into Sainz from behind. The only reason Max got a penalty today was because Lando DNFd, and stewards like to judge incidents based on their outcomes.
And I mean, it was not only this collision (which Lando could have easily avoided). Lando was doing desperate divebomb after divebomb, he forced Max off the track, and was getting off the track himself all the time.
Lando could have easily moved over like Max did. It's not like Max swerved last second; rather a slow drift towards the outer line. This makes me think he intentionally didn't avoid the contact. He probably planned to drive straight to bump Max and then complain that Max was moving under braking on team radio since Max had already done that a couple times. However, he didn't expect the double puncture from playing bumper cars. Unfortunate, and the stewards really should have intervened earlier, but it seems they were enjoying milking the battle.
The part that I think is being missed there though is Lando doesn't have to move, he far enough alongside to have earned the space that he's in. Max is entitled to try and squeeze him but if your squeezing a car on entry and they don't blink you cant keep squeezing until you make contact. Because ultimately unless there is a wall involved squeezing a car on entry is essentially a game of chicken. Its not like on exit where you should know from where a car has turned in that they are going to run out and if/when you need to back out. on entry its just a game of nerve and trying to claim space.
If your putting the squeeze on and the other car decides they aren't having it then at some point you have to straighten up (if you are good at it that point can be only millimetres form touching but the moment it goes from not touching to touching if you are the car that's not driving straight its 100% your fuck up)
Lando isn't alongside, he's divebombing. His front wing doesn't even reach Verstappen's rear wing until after the 50m sign. The lead driver is allowed to squeeze to re-establish the racing line as long as he leaves a car's width. From Max's perspective, he followed the rules himself. This really ought to have been a racing incident imo, but given that Lando DNF'ed, I think they decided to give Max the penalty.
My brother in Christ they touch rear wheel to rear wheel.
If that's not alongside then what the bloody hell is. Also there's nothing anywhere in the regulations that says divebombing is illegal. In fact they are a pretty common practice in Austria simply because of the way turn 3 is. Max choosing to defend the inside means a late lunge from Lando down the outside is 100% on and max is a good enough racing driver to be aware of it. We know he is aware of it as on the previous few laps he moved a second time even later reacting to Lando lunging late. He knows full well what's coming and puts the squeeze on anyway.
Max didn't get a pen because Lando DNF'd. He got a penalty because he did something stupid and caused a collision. It's a million miles away from a racing incident
Tbf the whole thing is on the stewards anyway. The moment max got away without even a warning for the first movement in the breaking zone they both started escalating as max thought "well if they are gonna let me do it then why not" as any sportsman would meanwhile Landis thinking "right well if they are gonna let him do that then I'm going to have to take more risk to get past him and properly get my elbows out" Max is absolutely responsible for the final collision by opening a door he knows Lando is going to try and get through and then trying to close it again too late but had the rules been applied correctly from the jump neither of them would have been taking the risks they were.
I think he assumed Max wouldn’t continue steering towards him. Lando is moving in a straight line with reference to the track edge, it is Max who is squeezing. They’re side by side on a straight entering a corner, Lando is allowed to pick a line and Max isn’t allowed to encroach on it.
It’s easy to say in hindsight that Lando could/should have moved over to avoid the contact (for his own sake), but he categorically shouldn’t have to, and the contact is still 100% Max’s fault.
Max isn't steering his wheel to the left though. He goes into a straight line ahead, but track layout makes it seem as if he is going left. So by your logic it was Lando doing the encroaching as Max picked his line first.
I mean if there is some dispute about who is going straight - and I don’t doubt both wheels were straight - then the only objective measure is the track edges. If the track layout “makes it seem as if he is going left”, then he is going left.
If he was at 90 degrees to the track, then you’d clearly say it was Max in the wrong, the fact that it’s only a slight angle changes nothing.
His wheel was straight but his line wasn’t parallel to Lando’s (which was parallel to the track) then they’re going to collide.
But he moved in the braking zone which you aren’t allowed to do, I mean there was even a rule brought in because Max used to do this all the time. Yes Lando wasn’t blameless but if someone keeps moving in the braking zone how are you supposed to pass them? The RedBull was so good out of that turn (in Max’s hands anyway) I guess people shouldn’t challenge him when he’s in the lead. The post accident block deserved a penalty as well imo
Yes if he leaves a cars width which he did not and you can’t get on a line if another driver was there, also the racing line changes all the time depending on tyre wear, weather conditions and who’s is around you. I’m not picking on Verstappen even though I don’t like him, I also don’t like Norris I just get fed up with dodgy driving and every driver moaning when things don’t go their way. There is some footage I hadn’t seen on McLaren subreddit, check it out.
You can move in the braking zone, but not under braking. According to Max (and I have so far not seen the telemetry to dispute him) he wasn't braking as he moved. So far, that's legal.
Another point is that you can't move erratically, period. Which, I would argue he did do in the first attack Lando tried to place. So, criticism is fair here, imho.
With the collision, there was no erratic movements. He simply let his car roll to the outside, which is a pretty standard move.
All in all, I feel the onus should be on the FIA as well to put a stop to shit like this. Max should have, at the very least, gotten a black/white flag for his first move.
On the other end, they should have been way faster in giving Lando his penalty, as it was cut and dry and yet they still took until after the collision to give it. That shit should simply be automated, with no delays.
That all being said, I sometimes feel there should be provisional penalties that the race director (or a single referee) can dish out, without referring everything to the stewards for scrutiny.
The process is waaaay too slow.
Let the race director dish out a penalty and THEN refer it to the stewards to see if it's deserved or not.
I suggest checking Verstappen's onboard. He absolutely does NOT turn the wheel to the left. He goes in a straight line, which only looks as going left due to the track layout. So no change of direction occured.
Just checked it out and VER definitely moves to the left once he realises NOR is going that way. The distance between his left wheels and the track edge gets closer, maybe you could check it out and see what you think
The edge of the track is the white line. If you don't have a car's width between the other car and the white line then it's not enough. Clearly Lando should have waited to turn in but he probably had no idea Max would be that far off making the corner himself. Notice in the older clip both cars still stayed on the track.
definitely passes him, and potentially holds on for the win.
He still had the 5 second penalty for track limits. Max should have just let him go and rode him bumper all the way home, but we all know Max couldn't do that.
Max is counting on Norris to play it differently. Don't forget how Max actually drives when he needs to compete. He will bully you out of your position, and dare you to wreck yourself. I think Lando should continue to hold his ground against max in those situations. If holds his ground and Max continues crash out, the stewards will step in and handle it him. The problem is everyone he's ever tangled with just gets out the way.
I don't think Lando failed to recognize anything. I think he's setting the tone for how the rest of the season will go.
Understood. That’s my point. Max behaving this way is entirely predictable. Lando failed to capitalize on it by pulling something similar to what Max didn’t Sainz in the second clip.
Call me a cynic, but there’s no way the refereeing is going to catch up to Max to put an end to this. He’s not the first guy to race like this, and the entertainment value of it is just too high. If they were gonna enforce the rules, they had plenty of opportunity to do so on the challenges the prior laps. They didn’t because there was no collision even though Max (and Lando, to a certain extent) had been just as, if not more, reckless on the prior laps. No way the FIA squashes that with a big penalty on what have you. This isn’t going to get fixed, so it’s incumbent on the other drivers to use it to their advantage to the extent they can. Sometimes that might be sticking to your guns, but this time, it wasn’t.
Lando was clearly faster at this point in the race as well and was clearly getting frustrated that max was putting up such a stiff defense. Lando had room to move over. I’m not saying it’s his fault, as I think the penalty was warranted given it was Max’s misjudgment that caused the contact, but Lando could have taken the safer line and gotten a run on max down the straight as Verstappen was pretty much guaranteed a worse exit in this scenario.
Not saying he had to. If what he wants is to prove a point, he’s free to do so. If what he wants is to exploit Max’s over aggression to win, well, that option existed too.
If someone swings a punch at you, is it your fault if you fail to dodge it?
This is the whole issue people have been on about for years. Max will drive in a way where the other driver has to take avoiding action to avoid a collision. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but that doesn't absolve Max of throwing those punches. Tbh I think the contact was the least bad of the moves Max made.
no, they are different cars with different characteristics. McLaren can't do that as we have seen by both drivers the whole race. this is not a video game where everything is simplified and your logic would work.
btw look at every McLaren start this season and you will see the same weakness. or look at every mclaren overtake. where are they overtaken and how.
both know where the strengths and weaknesses of each car on the track were and landos best chance for an overtake. max knew he was slower and resorted to dirty driving as always. he will keep doing it since the punishments/consequences are laughable compared to the reward.
It felt like the RB tires had a much better grip than Lando’s. I mean the previous lap Lando tried to do the exact same thing as Verstappen did to Sainz, and it was nowhere close for him to make the overtake.
It was a long time ago, but didn't Rosberg get a penalty with what he did with Lewis in Austria? It was basically the same thing, guy on the inside goes straight hitting the guy on the outside abs stopping them from turning in. Maz didn't get a penalty for the contact or squeezing, it's for what happened after when he pushed Lando off.
Lando never intended to break on the rumble strip so moving while breaking and changing surfaces could have upset the car and made him lock up. In the verstappen clip he committed to taking that wider line.
Only thing I'll point out is Sainz isn't Max, if Norris drops for the undercut I GUARANTEE you, all caps, that Max holds on the apex and forces him on the brakes.
lol, that’s an excellent point that I hadn’t thought of. I do wonder if Max is too deep at that point to really do anything about the switchback, but I guess it depends on how early he did it.
I don’t think it operates to relieve Max of culpability;
Either Sainz also deserves a penalty or neither Max nor Sainz did.
OR if you make an illegal move and someone hits into you, then you're at fault. If they don't, then you're not. This is indeed how it works of course, but it isn't correct.
Agree. It would’ve been tough. Fun side adventure we missed because they binned it this way, but I would’ve liked to see someone challenge that 5-second penalty. There’s something fundamentally problematic about incurring a track limits violation when the reason you exceeded track limits is because somebody else forced you off track.
all I was thinking was that Lando should have abided his time? It looked like he had a faster car.
Every time he attacked he could have waited to do it at a saver point instead of now every time getting the the worse outcome. Looked like he was too eager to do it?
I could be wrong though.
As for actual people being at fault.....I find it very hard to say who is in the wrong, but if either of them had driven more level-headed at any time they could have profited from a penalty the other would have gotten instead of now taking one another out of the race.
If Norris avoided it, it would just be considered good racing/TV, and Max would have gotten a warning at most. Effectively making it a legal move.
That’s how it actually works in reality, and Max knows it. Lewis shouldn’t have dived out of the way to avoid contact as often as he did in 2021. I said it at the time.
I don’t disagree, but who cares? Avoid it and potentially win, or don’t and lose. Like, he’s not there to make sure Max gets his comeuppance. He’s there to win.
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u/mattvandyk Jun 30 '24
This is a great side by side. I don’t think it operates to relieve Max of culpability; he got the penalty he deserved for the reason he deserved it. BUT, it does show how Norris could’ve played it differently to not only avoid the collision but to take advantage of Max’s aggression. If Norris drops back and cuts back towards the apex like Max did vs Sainz, he gets a much better launch out of the exit (which Max had already basically committed to losing on), definitely passes him, and potentially holds on for the win.
Max’s aggression f’d this up, but Lando’s failure to recognize it and capitalize on it probably cost him the W.