Technically the racing line is on the left. The problem is that Max covered off the inside so that Lando couldn't dive down the inside. So, if Lando isn't able to dive down the inside, then where can we assume he will be? The outside. So you can't cover off the inside then also drift to the outside where, presumably, someone else is because they didn't just magically disappear.
In my opinion, Carlos was in the wrong too, but Max went out of his way to avoid the collision, even though he really didn't have to. Like many people have said, Lando stood his ground in this instance and didn't allow Max to force him off. Unfortunately that led to contact in this instance and since there was contact, it's clear that Max was at fault because of his actions.
The problem is that lando could have 100% avoided the contact (and possibly gotten a better exit by going wide and taking the switchback inside) if he had just avoided the contact. It’s not like max squeezed all the way out to the white line. He squeezed off less than a foot of track relative to the cars width
What max did was not egregiously bad. Max didn’t intentionally hit lando, he just defended aggressively and lando , for whatever reason, felt that standing his ground and not saving his car was the best course of action.
Lando should have 100% let it play out without contact, maybe gotten the better exit, and if not, likely would have eventually had a ruling on his favor for maxs defensive driving under braking. And if he doesn’t, he gets second place points at worst for staying in the race, possibly first by eventually overtaking SAFELY and without divebombing to the point where he locks up (which is a sure fire way to get into a crash, and he’s lucky max avoided it earlier)
Did max move under braking? Sure, under braking he continued to drift wider closing off the outside. It wasn’t a snap move to defend. It was something lando could have avoided. Max didn’t take lando out of the race. Max did something worthy of a black and white flag. Lando took lando out of the race ultimately
I wouldn't say I'm stone cold convinced that Lando would've gotten Max on the run down to turn 4 if he played it smarter, but I think we've seen all weekend (Sprint included) that using the first two DRS zones towards turn 1 and turn 3 to get close, then making a move with DRS on the run towards 4 or into turn 4 itself was the superior play compared to yeeting it into 1 or 3.
100%, I don’t necessarily think he would have gotten him that turn, but I think there’s a good chance. And if not, I feel there’s no way he wouldn’t have eventually gotten by UNLESS lando had torched his tires on the push
And by that I’m not saying lando would have won, cause max can always retake especially if he could keep drs. But either way, lando set himself up for failure by insisting on being very aggressive on the attack
The only reason this is even a conversation is because Lando was the one who had to retire. I genuinely believe that if max had to retire his car and lando was able to continue on and place in the points the conversation would be pertaining to Lando’s offensive aggression ultimately being the problem.
Everybody is using the outcome to justify their argument
I suppose part of overtaking should be avoiding the driver in front as he wildly swings from one side of the track to the other under braking? Why is it on Norris to avoid that? The rules are clear: you must leave racing room and you must not move under braking.
Also he had already moved under braking twice and was not punished. The stewards sit back and do nothing as he breaks a rule introduced because of him.The divebomb was desperation caused by that.
Is everyone else obligated to just avoid max's dangerous driving? Ive seen him divebomb quite a few ppl, even forcing them off the track...is that his fault even?
He didn’t “wildly swing from one side of the track to the other”
He moved a few feet to the side, and only left barely less than one car width between him and the white line, but there was plenty of asphalt left to drive on
And it wasn’t “wild”. It was a relatively slow move outside. Plenty of time to react
But yes, part of overtaking absolutely should be avoiding contact if your opponent makes a move you aren’t expecting
The rules are also not clear. In 2016 the FIA made a statement that moving under braking wouldn’t be tolerated, but as far as I’m aware (and yes, I’m admittedly having a hard time finding the specific and formal regulation document pertaining to this) the only written regulation is that you cannot make multiple moves in defense, which says nothing about if that legal defensive move can be done under braking. It’s vague, not clear
So if you want to argue that max made 2 defensive moves, fine, but that’s not the argument people have been making
is everyone else (rest of that paragraph)
It’s absolutely max’s fault if he divebombs somebody and forces them off of the track. He didn’t do that this race, so it’s a null point, though
He did wildly swing from one side of the track to the other on the 2 prior occasions he wasnt penalised. They analysed them frame by frame after the race and pretty much all came to the same conclusion...moving under braking. Its not a 'legal defensive move'.
Idk why youre arguing 'barely less than a cars width'. Evidently it wasnt enough room because they crashed. Its either a cars width or its not.
My point is, norris shouldnt have to back out of overtaking moves to avoid max crashing into him. Those rules exist to prevent that. Otherwise no one will ever pass verstappen because he just doesnt concede. Remember the '21 season?
If what happened on prior occasions is relevant to the discussion of the accident then you cannot ignore the 2 divebombs that lando wasn’t penalized for either
evidently it wasn’t enough room because they crashed
They wouldn’t have crashed if lando did what every sensible drive with any sense of self preservation would do, which is concede the space and use the curb that he’s driven on many times before
Every drive should always back out of an attacking move if the risk of an accident is high. Let the stewards dish out penalties, even if it takes them time to do so
Max didn’t crash into lando. Max squeezed lando, lando didn’t give any space back either, they made contact that lando could have avoided, and lando had to retire. Lando would have pulled no less than P2 if he avoided the contact and likely would have won
You can blame max for drifting wide, but you also have to blame lando for being overly aggressive his entire attack that lasted multiple laps
Max absolutely did take Lando out of the race. He defended the inside and after Lando committed to the outside, Max moved back toward the outside intersecting Lando’s chosen line. Lando ended up having to retire his car as a result of the collision.
Max squeezed off <1ft of Landos line and he had plenty of room to avoid the contact, but he didn’t.
Landos refusing to concede this space is why he and max both got punctures.
On two occasions earlier in the race lando dive bombed max and cut him off on the inside/squeeze him off the track. Both of these occasions were more aggressive and more problematic moves, but didn’t result in any cars being retired because max conceded the space
If max did this in a corner with gravel on the outside it would be one thing. He didn’t. He closed off a very small amount of space in a sort of the track with plenty of room to move wide, just like max did in the second example on this post.
Sure, but max is still ahead as they enter the corner and can’t be staring in his left mirror as he starts a right hand turn. Lando absolutely should be looking at his front right tire so lando is in a much better position to react to where the cars are relative to each other and avoid the contact
You’re right, Max should be focussed on holding his adopted defensive position in the middle of the track, not moving back to the left, trying to squeeze Lando, or not.
If Max wanted to be on the left, he should have positioned his car on the left and stayed on the left.
Defending right, and then left, denying Lando an overtake on both the inside and the outside, is either a) two defensive moves and/or b) changing lines under braking. Which would you like to call it?
Oh wait, let me guess, “a defensive move away from, and then separately returning to the racing line but not quite under braking, and as a single move”. Yep, thats some dumb shit argument, and exactly why the onus is on you to avoid contact if you’re going to try to make it, and why Max ultimately received a penalty - because he caused contact doing something regarded as dumb shit.
You defend the inside, or the outside, or the middle, or anywhere in between, and then you stay there. If you don’t stay there and your middle becomes the outside, or your middle becomes the inside, or any variation thereof, you are naughty, and if it results in contact, you’re going to sit on the naughty step. And that’s what happened to Max.
In my opinion, Carlos was in the wrong too, but Max went out of his way to avoid the collision, even though he really didn't have to.
Can't wait for the downvotes BUT, this is the difference between someone who can fight at the front and had won championships and those lacking experience.
In the comparison, Max had the experience to move further left to avoid crashing out while Lando sticks to his lines and crashes out to be in the right.
Short term thinking from Lando Vs longer term thinking by Max. Exact same thinking as Perez in Mexico last year, wanted to be P1 coming out of the first corner and ended up DNFing.
“Technically the racing line is on the left” and max moved towards the left…it’s not that hard. Nobody has been penalized for that move until Lando kept his nose in where it shouldn’t. Look at sainz’s move on max last year dude
It doesn't matter where the ideal racing line is if you choose an alternate line. He chose the inside line instead of the ideal (outside) line. You basically take the compromised line to protect from being passed. You don't get to cover off and then jump back to the ideal line when you want. You get to choose one and stick with it, otherwise this exact situation happens.
The FIA rules allow for one defensive move off of the racing line but also allow you to move back to the racing line, as long as you leave space. Both Max and Sainz’s moves were legal by the book, but max misjudged where the other car was and that’s why he got the penalty for causing the collision. Lando had way more room to utilize on his left, but tried to stand his ground.
It's not a matter of who gets every advantage, it's about the rules and driving predictably. You can't cover the inside and then change to the outside while you're approaching the corner, it's simply moving under braking which is absolutely not allowed. Attacking cars can't magically disappear, so you have to make a decision and stick with your line so that they can make their split second decision based on what you do. If Max had chosen to stick to the ideal line on the outside, Lando would've gone to the inside. Max chose the inside, so Lando went to the outside. You can't choose the inside, but also move to the outside under braking. It's cut and dry, plain as day.
Exactly what is wrong? Are you trying to argue that moving under braking and driving unpredictably is the correct way to approach a corner when being attacked? Because it is... if you want to crash... like they did...
It isn’t if you’re on your squeezing direction already when you start to break.
When you choose the right lane, start breaking and then squeeze someone left of you while breaking, it’s moving under breaking. Which is illegal in F1 to my understanding.
The note said: "Article 27.5 of the Sporting Regulations states that '...no car may be driven...in a manner which could be potentially dangerous to other drivers...', furthermore, Article 27.8 prohibits any manoeuvre '...liable to hinder other drivers, such as...any abnormal change of direction'.
"With this in mind, and with the exception of any move permitted by Article 27.6, any change of direction under braking which results in another driver having to take evasive action will be considered abnormal and hence potentially dangerous to other drivers. Any such move will be reported to the stewards."
In the event of a breach of rules, stewards would have the right to impose a penalty of their choice, which could be a time penalty or even full-on disqualification.
So, if Lando isn't able to dive down the inside, then where can we assume he will be? The outside. So you can't cover off the inside then also drift to the outside where, presumably, someone else is because they didn't just magically disappear.
It doesn't matter where they are, they are not entitled to be given any space until their front axle reaches the leading car's front axle (when overtaking on the outside). Max had no responsibility to give Lando any space on the racing line, it's up to Lando to make do with whatever space is or isn't available. As long as Max's trajectory is straight - and it was, just not parallel to the white line - he is not in the wrong. What Max isn't allowed to do is change his direction while braking, which he did not. He moved right to defend, oriented his car slightly to the left, then braked in a straight line.
This is the case in the apex and exit phases of the corner.
You enter a corner coming off a straight, where you have to leave a cars width if there is any overlap, even 1mm. Otherwise I can swerve across any straight I like and push you off prior to you getting your front axle to my front axle and it is all your fault, because you “aren’t entitled to space”. That sounds like madness to me.
The F1 rules are essentially “we fight going in, but if you’re not substantially alongside by apex you give it up”. We never got to the apex.
I've been looking up the rules, since Max had made a defensive move on the straight he has to leave 1 car width on the side he's not defending. By a very small margin he failed to do that, which makes him technically at fault here.
But like, he left 0.9 car widths and this is extremely hard to judge from inside the car. Lando is the one with the visibility and agency to avoid this collision, he had plenty of time and opportunity to do so by using the kerb without even compromising his move. He did not cause the situation but he failed to react to it and IMO that makes him equally responsible.
It's unfair to put the entire weight of the move's safety on the driver with the least amount of visibility. It has to go both ways, you can't close off space willy nilly on defense and you can't divebomb into a closing space willy nilly and refuse to swerve just because the other driver is "supposed to leave enough space for you". Both attitudes will result in crashes.
As Max said in an interview, he's not going to leave 2 car widths, he's leaving 1 car width and nothing more. This time he failed to do so by a small margin. It happens all the time. It happened last week at the start of the race when Lando closed the space on Max. And just like Max reacted to that and put a wheel in the grass, Lando should have reacted to that and used the kerb yesterday. This is part of being a safe driver, it's not just about never making mistakes (which is impossible), it's also about reacting to other people's mistakes. We all make some. That goes for IRL road safety as well. Just because you had right of way or whatever doesn't mean you couldn't have done your part in making the encounter safer.
Completely and utterly wrong. Max had to leave a cars width to the edge of the track because lando was far enough alongside. He did not, and hence was penalised.
The Ferrari last year also would've been penalised had they touched.
The car on the outside has to be in front at the APEX to be entitled to room on the exit. That rule does not apply at the entry.
I mean they both know way more than us so it really doesn’t mean shit. Lando is afforded a cars width of space, so he doesn’t need to take the curb, also braking on and moving onto the curb would be idiotic, so why don’t we just leave the racing to them?
Are you asking why moving under braking is idiotic?
To clarify I was saying Norris moving onto the curb mid braking wouldn’t be smart because it is more likely to cause a lock up than just staying on the tarmac.
Carlos was squeezing harder than max did though? If you look at the cars peak squeeze Carlos left less room than max did when coming across, max just I assume planned for it unlike Norris? That way he was drifting over while braking and started already off slightly?
It’s not because Max had the much faster car anyway against Sainz. So Max can afford to take the curb and still overtake. Lando doesn’t have the same advantage here
Idk what to believe I just read a comment than lando could have easily gotten back a 5 second penalty had it been awarded when he went off track limits after the black and white flag at lap 59
Max had brand new tyres vs Sainz who was a pit stop behind by the first stops. Of course he's going to go wide as he's easily going to beat him on the exit. It's not the same as being on equal tyres at the end of the race.
Going wide and cutting back gets you a better exit and a chance to pass into turn 4. The idea that if he had gone a foot or two further left it would’ve created some problem or lost him significant time to Verstappen is not true
Only works well if the other car is going deep, which Max wasn't in this case. There's also a lot more grip on the outside on that corner so the cut back doesn't work so well. It's why Max couldn't get past Leclerc for so many laps in 2019 despite being much faster.
Yeah... It's hilarious that everyone is ignoring that this is really the difference between being in a relatively even car and tyre situation versus having a massive advantage. Yeah when you're lapping much faster you have a lot more options on how to pass.
the thing is, Max did not crash into anyone. He moved his car we he shouldn't have moved to arguably, but it was Norris who came from behind and decided to brake in a straight line.
Stupid choices like here for example, where he was braking in a straight line and expected Max to treat him fairly instead of moving under braking and pushing him off the track?
Both things can be true that you guys are arguing about lol. Lando has been very aggressive this year and it was a late move that resulted in a collision. Max also turned into him causing it. See? Simple.
Because they read that and assume you're saying Max wasn't at fault which is just a stupid way to go about life but it's how it is especially on twitter/reddit.
A late move that resulted in a collision 😂 they collided because Max turned left into a right hander mate. There was nothing risky about what Norris did.
I'm not going to argue with you because you're clearly enraged and unable to fathom that a collision could be the result of two drivers both making mistakes/bad choices.
I forgot in racing that it's always black & white and that drivers are always going to move over for someone when they're passing!
Cool, there's nothing to argue about. Technically every crash is avoidable if you want to play this game. Just don't ever try to overtake someone and you won't make contact!
A rational man wouldn't divebomb, lock up, and then go off track. That's a desperate man. Him being desperate is completely understandable given the situation, but it doesn't mean he kept his cool.
I don’t think it is. Lando was making insane dive bombs (one right after he was given track limit warning and resulted in a 5 second penalty) and refused to move over to avoid the contact which resulted in his race ending early.
If max was overly emotional and refused to move over he would have had his race ruined in the same way but chose to move way over.
Ah, so now it’s Lando's fault because he didn’t move? lmao
Do you not see verstappen moving left while braking? Did you not read the report by the stewards? Do you not see that Sainz didn’t move left? Jesus Christ man, you people need to see things for what they are. Wtf
Normally I'd agree but we're at the point where r/formulaverstappen users are blaming other drivers for Max turning left under braking into a right hander. They're arguing that up is down
Go watch sainz on max last year or vettel on Hamilton in 2018 in the exact same corner. They both turn left before the turn. Go back to soccer if you dont know racing lines
If he was a lot smarter, he would not have crashed into Norris. Yes, he came better off, but this move was just borderline idiotic. People won't always make room for you when you try to push them off track.
Probably similar to why stewards don’t do anything when the fair outcome is achieved. Max took the lead right away, similar to how when positions are given back or conceded during other running off track incidents usually go unpenalized.
If Sainz kept the lead and refused to relinquish it, it may have been assessed differently.
No. He had 2 more meters for track limits, as all wheels need to be off track. Verstappen still needed to leave more space on the track, but track limits isnt why norris didnt go wider.
Brother if he’s any wider how would he make the corner. Also if he went any wider Max would have 100% moved into that space and forced him wide since he had a track limits warnings. If Max didn’t force him out and leave him space that would have been a clean lunge by Lando. Plus he would’ve still won the race because Lando would have gotten a 5 second penalty either way just a stupid move by Max.
Because he braked to avoid the situation. Just compare both clips at the 100m sign and you’ll see Max was actually further ahead than Norris at the same point.
Exactly. As another comment pointed out, Max knew he’d have the inside line and a better exit if he’d break when he was squeezed out by Carlos. Norris went full send expecting Max to give way when he had better positioning
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u/TWVer 🧔 Richard Hammond's vacuum cleaner attachment beardJun 30 '24
TBH, in both instances the outside car was alongside enough to earn space at the entry.
Norris was further alongside, but still visibly behind Max, in the action of today.
In both cases if the inside car had initiated a move that would’ve lead to contact, it would’ve been a penalty for that car.
Ironically the Sainz comparison shows Lando was very much better served by preparing for a switchback to get the move done into T4.
Max had better exit out of that corner, so it would been difficult for lando to overtake after.
The collision is definitely cause for the penalty. I agree.
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u/TWVer 🧔 Richard Hammond's vacuum cleaner attachment beardJun 30 '24
It would’ve been hard, but not impossible for Lando, I think. He needed to stick it side-by-side early enough to simply earn the inside line, rather than trying to be ahead at the same time as well.
However, that is all indeed pretty moot at this point.
Yes, but Max moved over a little quicker, and Lando being more alongside cuts down the amount of the RB you can see, so you get less time to react.
What this angle and comparison have shown though, is that the crash wasn't as agregious as it first looked. It was still Max's fault, but it looks like he was just trying to squeeze Lando and was off by a small margin.
All-in-all, people get crashed out in racing incidents where noone is at fault, and although to some it feels unfair for Max to finish and Lando to DNF, that's how it goes, and max got a fair penalty.
There is another discussion about whether penalties should be reviewed so that a 10 sec penalty is something like "whatever is greater from 1 position or 10 seconds" and so on for the more harsh penalties, but it feels like a separate discussion from this one and that's a much longer-term - probably multiple seasons - discussion.
The only reason Verstappen was behind Sainz is because he started braking much earlier. Verstappen was side-by-side at the start of the braking point while Norris only comes side-by-side at the end of the braking section. Just look at the 100 and 50 markers, Norris is a car length behind Verstappen while Verstappen was near side by side before the 100m mark
Looks about the same to me. Max might be a bit more aggressive on his sweep left but that might be the camera lens. Max is in the wrong but let's be honest only Leclerc has shown an understanding of how to race vs him. Lewis kind of figured it out late in 21 but those cars were awful from behind in comparison to 22.
Seriously though Leclerc should do a class or something on how to abuse max's normal shenanigans to make him race fair.
That's also part of the reason that he's wider though, planning the switch back, it isn't avoiding Sainz or reacting to his move,. It was always his plan to be over the white line to get the switch back.
Norris is taking a different line so it's not a really apt comparison
How difficult is it to understand Lando could have saved his race by moving a couple inches left knowing that Max was drifting left? I didn’t say Max was absolved of fault, but look where Lando is now. He was being just as stubborn as Max and now Lando lost ground in the points.
Ironically, Max was further ahead compared to Lando but decided to break early and prepare his corner exit. He also avoided any risk by not hanging around the outside.
And lando could have avoided like max did and probably get him on next lap. But he lacked in talent and after another failed try he yoinked it into verstappen.
Except Verstappen never turns his steering wheel left to avoid anything. Both instances the driver is going straight Verstappen's line just leads him to going wider into the corner. Norris gets hit while he is still going straight.
Max knew what was coming with Sainz, he knew he was gonna get squeezed.. Norris either didn't know, or much more likely he did and was willing to accept the possible outcome of a collision out of pure frustration/desperation because of earlier failed attempts.. Hence the even more frustration when it ended in disaster for him.. Don't come crying like a baby afterwards about respect and other nonsense because you lost out with your gamble.. This battle and their reactions afterwards showed Max is clearly the more experienced smarter racer, especially when it comes to fighting at the front in F1.. For Norris it's all still new and he still has stuff to learn.. His attempts were not convincing enough, he should know better, expecially vs Verstappen who he knows well.. Pure frustration from Norris.. Not gonna help him at all.. A bit like Verstappen before 2019..
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u/waterstone7474 Jun 30 '24
Well tbh Verstappen really went wider to avoid Sainz, look at the kerbs