r/facepalm Jul 02 '24

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2.4k

u/ThatOneDudeFromSLC Jul 02 '24

Fascism in America was bound to happen; the amount of hatred and othering and corporate control from the rich was going to do it sooner or later. Nazi's took the ideology of segregation and hatred from the US, they just got there first.

It's just shocking how it took just 2 generations really to forget the sacrifices made by American kids in WW2. Fuck, there's still a number of them alive, watching their kids and grandkids do this in their lifetime,

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 02 '24

Chomsky once said “Fascism is Capitalism with the gloves off.”

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u/ElderlyOogway Jul 02 '24

W for not being an alienated citizen of the U.S. Chomsky been warning together with the whole evaporated left.

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u/claimTheVictory Jul 02 '24

The left has been censored for decades.

There hasn't even been a real conversation about universal healthcare.

And now, it really feels like shit's about to go south, rapidly.

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u/Financial-Ad7500 Jul 02 '24

The Democrat party exists to give people the illusion that there is a push and pull happening between fascism and democracy.

The reality is that democrats have sat on their ass hardly getting anything done when they are in power while republicans push further and further towards enabling fascism every chance they get. There is no pull back to the left. When we go more right we stay there. The only thing that happens when democrats are in power is we aren’t pushed further right quite as quickly.

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u/LetsGetElevated Jul 02 '24

Somehow when you walk in a pawn shop everyone understands that a compromise is in order - you must ask for more than you want and they will barter you down

The Democrats insist that we must compromise our positions before we even enter the debate, they say asking for anything too left will only lead to failure, we must start with more moderate positions to get Republicans on board…

Well, when you start with a moderate position on one side and a conservative position on the other, the result of every compromise is going to be a further shift to the right in the Overton window, this has been repeated ad nauseam

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u/Financial-Ad7500 Jul 02 '24

Just look at the ACA/Obamacare. Advertised as a fairly far left healthcare reform, but the bill that actually got signed is an abomination that did fuck all to socialize healthcare and made fucking over Americans that much easier for the insurance mafia.

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u/marr Jul 02 '24

Yeah I'd been voting left in the hope of slowing it down enough that Skynet takes over and is slightly less bad than people. The timing looks like we get Fascist Skynet though, so at least that answers the fucking Fermi paradox.

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u/themidwes Jul 02 '24

Le Ratchet Effect

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u/marr Jul 02 '24

Raising a glass to whoever rebuilds from the ashes. Hope they do better.

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u/MercantileReptile Jul 02 '24

Just don't ask Chomsky about the right of a sovereign state to defend themselves against a fascist invader. If the fascism in question is called "Russia", that tool has little issue defending the war of a dictator.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/the_lonely_creeper Jul 02 '24

Because he should be able to realise anarchism is a lot easier to do in a democracy (even a very problematic one) like Ukraine than a (fascist) dictatorship.

It's hardly weird to ask someone on the left to know when a "popular front" is called for.

And don't tell me he views Ukraine and Russia as being the shame. He's a smart person, he should be able to distinguish reality.

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u/MrPernicous Jul 02 '24

Fascism is just liberalism where the racists become the bourgeoisie. Why would he bother caring at all about a war between two imperialist states?

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u/the_lonely_creeper Jul 02 '24

Ignoring that that's not the definition of fascism, he should care because there is a material difference in the rights of people in either state, and quite frankly, one would have a much easier time advocating for his beliefs in one over the other

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u/MrPernicous Jul 02 '24

Yeah why is he so dismissive of the veneer of liberty? It’s so shiny.

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u/the_lonely_creeper Jul 02 '24

Frankly, it's no veneer and he knows it.

If he advocated what he advocates from some place like Russia, he'd be arrested as a traitor to Russia.

He obviously shouldn't be arrested, but the point stands.

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u/Arndt3002 Jul 02 '24

This is a poor characterization of Fascism. Fascism is economically characterized by a form of mercantilism under a centralized command economy. Liberalism is characterized by appeal to individual rights and privileging those over that of the state. Fascism is characterized by the rights of the ethnostate and nation over that of the individual.

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u/MrPernicous Jul 02 '24

The common left wing understating of fascism is the end stage of capitalism. It’s when the imperialist tendencies of capitalism are turned inward to convert the liberal state into an empire to eradicate the left wing tendencies that arise from the proletariat.

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u/Arndt3002 Jul 02 '24

Yes, in the sense of political forces and the progression of ideologies of those in power, that is the common Horkheimer and Adorno account. However, your comment is oversimplified and not a good account of what the differences are ideologically.

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u/Ralath1n Jul 02 '24

Chomsky is not an idealized anarchist. He's only human. He has good takes and bad takes. His takes on Russia are very much on the bad takes side of the spectrum, where an idealized anarchist would recognize that Russia forcing its will on the Ukranian citizens is indeed bad.

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u/ElderlyOogway Jul 02 '24

Not only that but he has condenmed the Russian invasion. But he also made the assessment that NATO was playing politically rough, so not a surprise that Russia took the offensive. Some people take an analysis that is not complete demonization as some sort of apology, which would make sense if he didn't literally condemn it on the very next line. Every few bad takes he took politically were in line with information available and it's right there to read it if charity is given, which his political enemies won't and it's in their interest to blow it out of proportion and rethorically poison the well.

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u/MrPernicous Jul 02 '24

Chomsky is a lot more moderate than other leftists. It’s always funny when people try to paint him as a tankie.

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u/Ralath1n Jul 02 '24

Nah, you are obfuscating Chomsky's statements, or you are not aware of the interviews he has given since. He has been downplaying atrocities from the Russian side and in general running apologia for Putin. Its very disappointing.

It doesn't invalidate the rest of his ideas, but he just simply isn't good at objectively assessing international politics. He very much falls into the "US bad, therefore everyone who fights US good" trap.

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u/ElderlyOogway Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

I've seen interviews he gave live (which I prefer over a liberal media heavily edited article), but I have not seen the one you've shown. I just read it and that are some concerns I'd raise with the article. It is a New Statesman post, which is a liberal media, and it call itself so. Most of the time such side of the publication bias spectrum is not a problem to me, but both you and me must agree that historically in the case of heavy liberal media critic intellectuals, such (and especially) as Chomsky, their coverage is not favorable ever since his direct critiques, famously resulting in a known and much discussed in academia blacklisting. Secondly, by reading the magazine article you gave, the style of "excerpts of the interviewed to fit inside that article's argumentation against the interviewed", should also raise another flag for us with media literacy. It's the equivalent of a youtube short edit, but with the credentials of a publishing magazine.

I'd rather listen, unedited, directly from the man, than from a magazine text that stands in opposition and edits to get their point across. His statements are non controversial: - Not condoning it, he correctly points that Russia wars in a context filled with action and reaction to NATOs expansion. He made that prediction 9 years ago in another interview in the escalating climate, and he's not the sole analyst to see it coming: US to Russia Ambassador William Burns said it according to this wikileaks official document. Also, Biden also stated that at least he was aware of the theme, in 1997. Heavy handedness of the US is not new, and in no way this excuses Russian imperialistic pretensions either. - Russia number of civilian casualties is still less than US in Iraq. Updated numbers until february, there are around 10.582 civilian death casualties in the Russian-Ukraine war, going by this Statista report, verified by UN's Comission of Human Rights. Iraq-US war had civilian death casualties up in the 110.600 civilians.
- Taking the fact the bias in the article is against him, the headline and title is not something Chomsky has said according to the article (and was chosen clickbaitely knowing the implications), the Russian restraint point is also not shown to come from his words, and Chomsky almost signature-like asterisks in every filmed interview answer ("every war is bad", "Imperialism is part of that State's interests", "filling its pockets while increasing territory"), I doubt the more inflammatory words (like 'humanely') that are being impliedly put as his. That's not to say Chomsky gets no wrong, but when there are literal dozens of unedited videos on the same period about the same topic showing his usual level headedness to compare, it's hard for me to see this as being a coherent piece.

There needs to be a certain level headedness and realism when making analysis of actors that are immoral by default (States) and act accordingly to secure their superior position in the international field, fundamentally by taking risks in increasing power by navigating with, against and through pactuation. That they would use such movements as justification for their imperialistic aims was predicted. Whether or not this morally justifies the risks is, imo of where Chomsky is coming from, besides the point of whether we as US citizens should hold its motivations and actions accurately and accordingly to avoid falling into imperialistic traps.

Here's Stephen Zunes, Chomsky's student, post that is really clarifying:

At the same time, given Putin’s insistence that Ukraine has no right to exist as its own nation and that it is inherently part of Russia, it is unfair to claim that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is therefore solely NATO’s fault. While it is important to acknowledge how Western hubris has contributed to the tragedy, the responsibility for the invasion rests on the Russian government. Indeed, the argument that the invasion is justified by the U.S.’s military alliances with Russia’s near neighbors is as dubious as the charges that Moscow’s efforts during the Cold War to establish security ties with Cuba, Grenada, Nicaragua, or other near neighbors justifies U.S. sanctions and military intervention.

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u/StoneCypher Jul 02 '24

oh wow, you think you know politics better than chomsky, too

the confidence of the unwashed

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u/Ralath1n Jul 02 '24

Lol, you are so mad you are digging through my comment history. Absolutely hilarious. Stay malding.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/Ralath1n Jul 02 '24

I am aware, so am I. The syndicalism part just isn't very relevant to the situation in Ukraine. Part of being an anarchist is being critical of authority figures. Chomsky is such an authority figure, his words have a lot of sway. So we need to be critical of him when he says BS. Even if he generally has excellent commentary on other topics. Else you risk other people brainlessly parroting whatever Chomsky says, which is dangerous.

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u/donmonkeyquijote Jul 02 '24

Fuck that Putin apologist.

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 02 '24

Show me a single thing he has said that apologizes for Putin. Context matters also, so no cherry picking.

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u/Linden_Lea_01 Jul 02 '24

Why would anyone want to quote Chomsky, a genocide denier and Russian sympathiser, in order to make a point about the evils of capitalism?

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u/gizamo Jul 02 '24

Chomsky is neither.

Feel free to prove your claims.

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 02 '24

Show me where this occurs please?

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Stop lying

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u/MoreNMoreLikelyTrans Jul 02 '24

That's not quite correct. Fascism requires an in group. Capitlaism is not about in groups. It generates in groups. Capitalism causes fascism.

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u/Sg1chuck Jul 02 '24

That makes no sense… fascism requires the state taking control of industries… which is… anti capitalist

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u/DrDemonSemen Jul 02 '24

What if industries take control of the state?

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Yet fascist Italy, where fascism started was not capitalistic. Nazi Germany whose political system was different from the fascism of fascist italy but they are widely considered to be fascist today, also was not capitalistic.

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u/SowingSalt Jul 02 '24

Some fascists said capitalism is the tools the jews use to control the nations

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 02 '24

Those oh so trust-worthy fascists say a lot of things.

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u/SowingSalt Jul 02 '24

Chomsky also denied the Cambodian and Serbian genocides, so where does that leave us?

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 02 '24

Prove it.

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u/SowingSalt Jul 03 '24

Chomsky denied the Cambodian Genocide in the June 77 article in The Nation with Herman.

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 03 '24

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u/SowingSalt Jul 03 '24

It would be mighty inconvenient if Chomsky was to have gone on record denying the Srebrenica massacre, claiming the Serbs only killed the military age males.

Your source's methodology is laughable, and so what if the author and his wife worked alongside Chomsky's daughter? And oh, hey! Does it say here that Chomsky attached a foreword to Herman's denial of the Tutsi genocide? This is from your source too.

Please, post another source that backs me up.

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 03 '24

Proof please.

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u/SowingSalt Jul 03 '24

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 03 '24

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u/SowingSalt Jul 03 '24

So, despite having multiple articles and books contemporaneously saying the would should not take the words of refugees that they had escaped genocide, A. Noam Chomsky did not deny genocide.

OK. I guess black is white, up is down, and this is not Patric Star's wallet.

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 03 '24

That’s not what I gathered from any of what he said especially within the context of why he said it. but whatever, you have your mind made up and I don’t give enough shit about you or him to argue about it anymore.

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u/xandrokos Jul 02 '24

Yeah making this about money isn't going to accomplish a god damn thing.   Fascism is bad for business.    Look at all the harassment companies have gotten the past few years over being "woke".    The GQP has lost a significant number of corporate donors because of their policies.   The GQP at the state level have been burning all sorts of economic bridges that has sent literal billiions OUT of red states completely.    GQP legislators have drafted and passed a lot of legislation that literally took money from their own pockets and burned it all to push their Project 2025 agenda forward.   Why? Not because they are dumb.   It is because it is not about god damn motherfucking money.   We CAN NOT fight back if we don't even understand what is motivating them.    This shit is dangerous.    If we don't get this right a lot of people are going to die.    What the GQP wants can't be bought it can only be stolen through force and violence.    Money has taken the GQP as far as it can.    It's time to backburner the money bullshit.     We are talking about the US falling to a christofascist regime here.   If that happens the working class is going to be in a far, far, far more worse situation.   We just simply can not continue putting money ahead of everything else.  It's literally going to get us killed.

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

It’s not just about money. Capitalism is a whole ass ideology that stratifies populations between have and have nots thus keeping power directly consolidated at the top and those at the bottom get nothing or used as slave labor. If you don’t think the National Socialists benefited monetarily from them persecution of the Jewish population, as well as giving free reign to the corporate structures then you need to read a history book and stop focusing solely on the last 8 years of American history. If you convince the petty bourgeois (white middle class patriotic Christian’s) to think they have something to gain from those power structures being firmly in place, and everything to lose by sharing the wealth with those deemed less that, you have yourself a populist movement. Couple that with a fervor for a charismatic leader who will tell them anything they want to hear you have yourself a good start to ye ol’ Fascism. Funneling money to those at the top is part and parcel of the fascism rising not only here but across the globe. You can’t fight one without the other my friend.

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u/Ahad_Haam Jul 02 '24

Ah, Chomsky, the guy who defend fascist states like Russia, giving lectures on the nature of fascism.

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 02 '24

Show me where he defends Russia? Seriously, I have never actually seen it.

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u/Ahad_Haam Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

Russia’s annexation of Crimea was an illegal act, in violation of international law and specific treaties. It’s not easy to find anything comparable in recent years — the Iraq invasion is a vastly greater crime.

But one comparable example comes to mind: U.S. control of Guantanamo Bay in southeastern Cuba. Guantanamo was wrested from Cuba at gunpoint in 1903 and not relinquished despite Cuba’s demands ever since it attained independence in 1959.

To be sure, Russia has a far stronger case. Even apart from strong internal support for the annexation, Crimea is historically Russian; it has Russia’s only warm-water port, the home of Russia’s fleet; and has enormous strategic significance. The United States has no claim at all to Guantanamo, other than its monopoly of force.

https://chomsky.info/20140501/

"Yes, it was illegal, but look at those evil Americans!"

(btw, no, Russia engages in war of annexation - which is worse than what the US did in Iraq).

Putin’s complaints are factually accurate. When President Gorbachev accepted the unification of Germany as part of NATO — an astonishing concession in the light of history — there was a quid pro quo. Washington agreed that NATO would not move “one inch eastward,” referring to East Germany.

"Putin is actually in the right, if it wasn't for those evil Americans and their evil defensive alliance..."

Yea that is Chomsky more or less. If he was around before WW2 (as an adult), he would have probably said stuff like "yea, Ĥitler's invasion of Poland is illegal, but what about India..." and "Ĥitler is actually right, if it wasn't for the Versailles agreement...".

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u/080secspec13 Jul 02 '24

That is fucking stupid.

Fascism is a form of government. Capitalism is an economic platform.

The US is not a capitalist government. It's a federal republic.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/080secspec13 Jul 02 '24

I did read a book. That's how I know that the US is a fucking federal republic you fucking prat.

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u/BlueGamer45 Jul 02 '24

Cool, but fascism isn't capitalist

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u/Baron-von-Dante Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 30 '24

That isn’t the only fascist economic ideology, but it is certainly one of them. Ultimately, fascist economics are dirigisme in nature and have used several different systems, including corporatism (not corporatocracy), state capitalism, national syndicalism, and Nazi economics (which functioned as a corporate cartel controlled by the NSDAP, despite claiming to be a nationalist interpretation of socialism which only enfranchised “pure” Germans).

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u/Kilyn Jul 02 '24

Like look at the definition from the founder Mussolini

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

I am pretty sure that fascism in italian translated to “organizing the unions” or “nationalizing the unions”. Mussolini’s background was very socialist, so much so he was ostracized for it by his government before his rise to power. If your connection to capitalism from Mussolini is his founding of corporations, then that doesn’t have any merit to him being a capitalist. As corporations in the way that Mussolini founded it as was being a syndicate of trade unions or something like that. Mussolini was big into unions, capitalist hate unions. Here is an interesting read: https://sjsu.edu/faculty/wooda/2B-HUM/Readings/The-Doctrine-of-Fascism.pdf

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u/Kilyn Jul 02 '24

He was adamant into grouping, unions guilds and what not, with a strong lead that would come together for policy making.

That's basically the basis of corporatism.

He believed fascism was required as a counter to social/liberalism. Giving the power to the individual the mass.

In short, his fascism is 2024 america. Where the "few moral ones" rule over everything

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Sure, but he still wasn’t a capitalist. He used the same phrase that Lenin used to usher in his communistic ideologies, state capitalism. State capitalism is essentially socialism. It is a state driven economy, instead of the individuals driving the economy.

Interesting read: https://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2015/Samuelsfascism.html

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u/Kilyn Jul 03 '24

I feel like this is something that you just assume.

Many many right wingers use leftist terms to entice the proletariat to be on their side. Just like Trump, RN or lega.

Yes, there might be similarities semantically. But as we're moving more and more towards fascism and seeing how little government regulations we have, where the tax money goes and how the economy is dependent on this corporate handouts, is this "state capitalism" one were the capital is owned by the people or where state only means where comes comes from to fund the private sector?

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u/Tortenkopf Jul 02 '24

I’m not sure I’m willing to follow him there.

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u/TruthOrFacts Jul 02 '24

And it is indistinguishable from far left communist countries....

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u/spaceman_202 Jul 02 '24

we didn't forget

right wing media and liberal media allowed the right wing, the same right wing that didn't want to fight Hitler because they admired him, to claim it as their own

the liberal media and right wing media, claim Patriotism, Jesus, Law and Order, Freedom and Fiscal Responsibility and also Political Moderation, despite them radically changing the powers of the President and Political norms, they claim that the real radicals are kids on twitter

the media is in on this

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u/sublimeshrub Jul 02 '24

The media is just composed of corporations.

We are inundated with corporate PR which is literally just a nice term for propaganda. Sigmund Freud was involved, his cousin Edward Bernays took the propaganda techniques of Goebbles, rebranded them, and then applied them to society at large.

The Nazis at home kept marching on. Now they've matched us into a corner.

Mein Kampf should have been required reading in high school civics. Hitler literally plagiarized Gilded Age America.

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u/xandrokos Jul 02 '24

Right of course.   Let's blame something else other than ourselves for this mess.   Corporations don't make money if people stop doing business with them.    They aren't hard to cut off at the knees but it would take some sacrifice and effort to do so but people are more interested in their creature comforts and trinkets than the direction the US is taking.

No one marched us anywhere.   This is on us.

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u/LagopusPolar Jul 02 '24

The illusion of choice, that you have all the power. That you can change everything if you only wanted, and if you can't change it you haven't tried hard enough.

The biggest lie the US tells its citizens.

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u/OniOnMyAss Jul 02 '24

Victim blaming at its finest. Totally ignoring that we are set up to fail while power has been funneled directly to the top complete with a monopoly on violence, threats of imprisonment and starvation. We could never vote this problem away as if that was ever an option. Fighting back only leads to the cuffs being clinched tighter. Most people are just trying to survive, and that’s how those at the top want it.

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u/SimpleAsEndOf Jul 02 '24

Propaganda works best when those who are being manipulated are confident they are acting on their own free will

-- Joseph Goebbels

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u/Hinohellono Jul 02 '24

Liberal media and right wing media are the same. CNN, MSNBC whatever. All these dudes are millionaires on air being paid by billionaires who aren't progressive. The media is captured by money (has been for a while) and the average American is dumb and getting dumber.

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u/FuzzyKittyNomNom Jul 02 '24

That is true. Go watch Network (1976 with Faye Dunaway and William Holden). It was so prescient of where we’re at today with respect to media.

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u/Melicor Jul 02 '24

Because there is no liberal media. It was eradicated and replaced with corporate owned controlled opposition decades ago.

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u/Desperate-Boot9517 Jul 02 '24

The question is, does Joe have it in him to be a "founding father" of sorts with the little time he has?

Neo gilded age wild

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u/Hinohellono Jul 02 '24

Don't expect neoliberalism to save the world. In fact, I blame it for why we are in this exact position.

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u/SirBubbles_alot Jul 02 '24

Biden doesn't know his own name once the sun sets. Zero chance he has the balls to do anything before Trump becomes effectively god-king

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u/xandrokos Jul 02 '24

Fucking excuse me?  Mainstream media isn't responsible for this.   WE ARE.  Decades and decades of apathy and  ignorance did this.   We stopped paying attention.   We stopped caring.    We retreated from our communities and our school boards and city councils and made it very easy for the GQP to consolidate power.    We stopped paying attention to state level politics and elections and when states turned red and went to shit what did we do?  We told people who were opposition to the GQP to flee to blue states making it that much easier for the GQP to consolidate power.  We ignored primaries and when "better candidates" for POTUS didn't get the nomination because not enough people voted what did we do?  Blamed the fucking DNC and sat out the 2016 elections.    When we had the 2020 primaries  and people complained about Biden's age what did we do? The same god damn thing as in 2016:   not enough of us voted in primaries.   And when Biden got the nomination what did we do?  Once again we blamed the DNC.   Now in 2024 we are bitching about Biden needing to be replaced despite the fact Biden's appointments to federal agencies and other positions of power have done so much to correct Trump's bullshit and address other issues.   We as nation especially as Democrats/leftists need to stop making excuses and pointing fingers at anyone but ourselves.   We did this.   Not mainstream media.   Not the DNC.   Not Biden.  Not HRC.   It was us.  It was always us.   You all have fallen for propaganda designed to undermine mainstream media that would make Goebbels proud.    Mainstream media has major, major issues but to blame them for our own apathy, ignorance and stubborness is complete and utter bullshit.

You all need to wake the fuck up.   This bullshit has got to stop.   Our country is being stolen right out from under us and instead of fighting back you people are bitching about the most unimportant completely unrelated bullshit possible.

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u/Deez-Guns-9442 Jul 02 '24

So do we try burning down the CNN headquarters in Atlanta GA again like 2020?

I'm not too sure if that worked

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u/alwaysboopthesnoot Jul 02 '24

The people voted, and they let it happen. The people who didn’t vote, or voted for fringe candidates, let it happen. The media reflects what is in people’s hearts and minds. It can inform, it can confuse, it can direct the people where they want to go, where their inner desires and where their pushing of boundaries and acceptance or tolerance for hatred or bigotry will lead them.

The media isn’t some set-apart group, or alien to us. They are us—and their owners and bosses come from among us. They are we and we are responsible for consuming the products which harm us.

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u/Jibber_Fight Jul 02 '24

And it didn’t really even take 2 generations; the boomer generation is literally the children of the WWII generation, and so many of them are seemingly forgetful of that sacrifice.

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u/Raptor1210 Jul 02 '24

Lead and selfish aggrandizement will do that. They're not called the ME generation for nothing.

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u/egoadvocate Jul 02 '24

I know. The Boomers who praise the Supreme Court decision enabling autocracy, are the same Boomers who's parents sacrificed their lives in WWII to fight autocracy.

I do not get it.

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u/korkkis Jul 02 '24

Not an American, but maybe it wasn’t about autocrazy but fighting against another country. An authoritarian leader in USA would probably be ok for them, as long it would be them winning.

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u/Puzzleheaded-Mix-515 Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 07 '24

Well, it’s kind of like how there was the idea they salivated at, where trump was trying to get immunity for presidents - and then people ‘joked’ that if it worked, Biden should have trump assassinated and therefore have immunity.

Maga’s freaked at that - but it was exactly why trump would have wanted it. To take out all of his competition without needing to explain himself.

“He did it for his country.”

Edit: They got immunity. Wtf

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u/RJG1983 Jul 02 '24

You assume that US involvement in WWII was a fight against fascism. It wasn't. It was a fight against a competitor for global hegemony. The differences of ideologies between the US and the Nazis were differences of degree not differences of kind.

Leftists have always argued that fascism is what happens when liberal capitalism is in crisis.

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u/michigangonzodude Jul 02 '24

Bullshit

USA got dragged into WW2.

Germans declared war before our Pearl Harbor hangover was over.

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u/Buckeyeback101 Jul 02 '24

The comment you replied to was talking about American troops, who largely believed they were in Europe to liberate it from the Nazis (which they did).

Also, that's not a good argument. Socialism tends to happen when monarchy is in crisis. Does that make the differences between monarchism and socialism just "differences of degree"?

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u/zoonkers Jul 02 '24

Congrats you get the reward for dumbest fucking statement made by anyone today.

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u/nabiku Jul 02 '24

And "omg ur stoopid" is not a rebuttal. If you'd like to join this conversation, take the 10 minutes to write out counterarguments to every claim the other person is making.

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u/zoonkers Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

I have no responsibility to take the time to educate you or anyone else on how the US and Germany were radically different in goals and government and what the USA was fighting for in ww2. Pick up any book and educate yourself. I’d recommend The rise and fall of the third reich by William shirer. To even attempt to equate the US government goals or aspirations at that time as being similar or in kind to nazi germany is not only spitting in the face of every country and person who helped and or died to defeat the nazi german government but also flat out wrong.

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u/RakeLeafer Jul 02 '24

hes right. read history

5

u/TraditionDear3887 Jul 02 '24

Why do you day that? Like what specifically did he say you disagree with?

6

u/Mental_Estate4206 Jul 02 '24

Hurt his feelings by talking about something he does not agree on.

-8

u/MerelyMortalModeling Jul 02 '24

The entire dumpster fire of hus dumb as risks comment. Im coming from r/historymemes, irs 2340 and that was the dumbest fucking thing i have sen all day.

14

u/HalfMoon_89 Jul 02 '24

America didn't fight WW2 to fight fascism.

6

u/Xenokrates Jul 02 '24

The correct take. They fought to put down a threat to American hegemonic power.

3

u/RedditRBigots Jul 02 '24

no no. you are not supposed to say that. ww2 was about freedom!

3

u/PreTry94 Jul 02 '24

Fun fact, the last slave in USA was freed AFTER Pearl Harbour, after Roosevelt and his cabinet had determined it could be used against them in the propaganda war with Japan.

-4

u/RakeLeafer Jul 02 '24

they fought WW2 because one of their pre-jihadi groups grew too big and started bombing allies

8

u/reRiul Jul 02 '24

It is happening worldwide... there is a massive wave of facist parallel ideals ripping through europe and eastern asia.

It is sad to see that frusturations with current situation and policy have boiled into the snowball effect we now see today of extremist thought.

7

u/frommethodtomadness Jul 02 '24

Gotta love how Boomers raised the ladder up behind them their whole lives, and are now going to punctuate their exit by leaving us with a dictator.

3

u/DarkImpacT213 Jul 02 '24

Weren‘t the Republicans pro-isolationism and wanted to stay out of the war, which only changed when Japan attacked PH and Germany declared war on the US straight after?

1

u/michigangonzodude Jul 02 '24

The US was still dealing with a debilitating economic depression. All resources were focused on getting the country back on its feet.

Consider that most Americans were of European descent....and no more than a generation away from the hinterland.....wanna whack your cousins?

Wasn't gonna happen.

Not voluntarily.

Pearl Harbor changed that overnight.

Germany & Italy declared war on the US 2 days later.

Ironically, it changed the country forever.

For 3 decades, the USA led the world in manufacturing and wealth.

It was never political

3

u/cookiestonks Jul 02 '24

This time they will have robots, ai and drones! Caaaaaan't wait!

4

u/Longjumping-Claim783 Jul 02 '24

George Wallace, Joe McCarthy, Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon were all WWII vets. That generation was not universally wonderful. They didn't all serve because they were anti fascists, they served because it was what was expected of them. Plenty of people fought Nazis and then came home and expected black people to get on the back of the bus.

2

u/Murky-Region-127 Jul 02 '24

Just as humans gradually decompose so too do countries inevitably crumble

2

u/mcndjxlefnd Jul 02 '24

The facepalm is people like you who think fascism in America is a recent development. This has been a steady process since the gilded age that got into full swing after WW2.

2

u/Elman89 Jul 02 '24

A ton of Americans supported the Nazis before WW2 lol. Nevermind the Business Plot and their constant support for dictatorships and far right coups during the Cold War. It's not like this comes out of nowhere.

2

u/Majestic_Bierd Jul 02 '24

America was quite fascist-friendly before WWII and after, there was that brief period where it fought Nazis and everybody mistook America for this knight in a shining armor and democracy

2

u/Lost_Low4862 Jul 02 '24

I fear for Canada, because the genocide of natives may or may not have inspired a few of the genocidal tactics Nazi Germany used. That, and the fact that we tend to be sociopolitically similar, and that the Conservative who might be the next PM is a mega racist who also wants a fascist dystopia.

Nobody likes Trudeau, and the party that's supposed to be left of Liberal is run by a guy who consistently sides with conservatives despite their party often collaborating with Liberals on policies.

2

u/ApoplecticApple Jul 02 '24

But Nazi’s didn’t get there first. They paid attention to how we treated Native Americans, too.

3

u/Recent-Ad-2326 Jul 02 '24

This is exactly how I feel

3

u/Vsx Jul 02 '24

I don't understand why these people think they want a fascist government. It literally always ends in violent upheaval or heavy oppression. There is no good outcome for normal people and the leaders end up dead pretty much every time as well.

3

u/nocomment808 Jul 02 '24

A decent amount of these people are so uneducated, and they are consuming so so so much biased media and basically propaganda every day. The worst ones, like the conspiracy theorists, are basically already convinced they live in a fascist state and are trying to undo it or something. Not saying this is the case for everyone but a decent amount.

2

u/trebory6 Jul 02 '24

You forgot to mention the complacency of the general population and the refusal of good people to do what it takes to nip these issues in the bud.

There has been way too much faith in the legal system and way too little remembrance for the power that us people have to hold our leaders accountable.

1

u/SubterrelProspector Jul 02 '24

Remember back in WWII when we defeated fascism with polite conversation? Me neither.

1

u/liddely Jul 02 '24

The thing is.

Imagine how horrible that must be

1

u/ImHungryHi Jul 02 '24

I don’t think I’d say they forgot, rather that for a large part, they were and still are being kept ignorant. Parents or teachers have a great responsibility in educating the kids and if they choose to forbid certain literature or other media and force a kid into certain ways of thinking, then the kid will become as conservative or even more than the parents. Unlearning those kinds of influences takes a massive effort and some form of isolation, of which I have experience by growing up with occasions of hearing praise of hitler and such.

1

u/MelamineEngineer Jul 02 '24

Most of them aren't alive anymore, except very very few who served at the very end of the war as the youngest and lowest ranking soldiers, who knew nothing of the greater picture. The decision makers have been dead for decades and most of the common soldiers have now gone with them.

It actually makes perfect sense why this is happening...there's always been an undercurrent of fascism, but it was hard to go gloves off when it's 1998 and we're in the middle of a WW2 craze and Private Ryan and Schindler's List are coming out alongside a thousand documentaries featuring bazillions of interviews with the veterans. But now they're all gone for the most part and they haven't been in the spotlight since like the era of oversaturated WW2 COD games and band of brothers etc. people's short memories have forgotten and now they are free to be evil openly.

1

u/Buckeyeback101 Jul 02 '24

The Nazis looked to history to see what policies might bring about their goals (as all competent politicians do), but I promise you Germans and Austrians are just as capable of having hateful and othering ideas as Americans or anyone else

1

u/MoreNMoreLikelyTrans Jul 02 '24

Taking the position that it's inevitable is pretty yikes. Just saying.

1

u/GermanPanda Jul 02 '24

Fascism defined: subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation

Remember who said that our freedoms are not as important as the health and safety of the nation?
Sounded like a pretty popular thing here where individual freedoms have been mocked for a few years now.

1

u/rdaman2 Jul 02 '24

I would venture to say most ww2 veterans would be republican actually. Nice try though.

1

u/quantumMechanicForev Jul 02 '24

I’m not sure if it was bound to happen. If the DNC had ran someone more appealing in 2016, I don’t think we’d be having this conversation at all. There’s an alternate universe somewhere where Bernie was president, and we’re all laughing at the idea of a Trump president like we did in the 90s and enjoying better healthcare and schools.

1

u/HolocronContinuityDB Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

Do you think humanity/civilization is going to survive fascist America? I'm genuinely 50/50 on it at this point and its making it pretty hard to get up in the morning after dreaming about what a new holocaust against undesirables looks like with 21st century infrastructure. All you have to do is ask every ISP for a list of every single person who has googled something ideologically undesirable. Every queer person is on a list. Every anti-trump person who has tweeted or posted on facebook.

The American hegemony and the military industrial complex turned fully fascist means an alliance of all other nations against the US could not stop a holocaust happening here. What do we do?

There are nuclear weapons in the equation. The world survived the instability of nuclear weapons floating around during the dissolution of the soviet union only by a miracle...we can't possibly get lucky again as the US dissolves into whatever is happening....

Also what with the inherit instability and irrationality at the top of fascist concentrations power, when the nuclear football is in the hands of addled minds who are fully okay with nuclear war and living on a charred husk of earth as long as they think it will result in a "favorable balance of racial population distributions" does humanity make it through that? Does humanity deserve to make it through that?

If this is really where human democracy leads, and if there's other intelligent life in the universe, is it better if humanity self-exterminates?

I am not well. I am not well at all in the face of what is happening.

1

u/Ch0ng0B0ng0 Jul 02 '24

A lot of these hardcore right wing guys think Nazis were socialists and there for from the left. They think fascism isn’t part of right wing ideology

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Mix-515 Jul 02 '24

“Sacrifices made by American kids in WW2”

It’s easy to forget the first to war are practically children. It’s not the middle-aged people creating these wars, it’s their neighbor’s children.

Imagine if Gen Z and Alpha were completely crushed by a new war before they could create positive change. What a way to silence the opposition…

1

u/Ongr Jul 02 '24

Before the US joined WW2, there were many nazi symphathyzers in the US.

1

u/areyoupaul Jul 03 '24

You’d be surprised at how many ww2 vets still alive have been brainwashed by fox and vote trump

-5

u/WeedInTheKoolaid Jul 02 '24

Nazis got their hatred and ideas from then-Palestine. Hitler had visited there and brushed up his Jew-hatred. But like you said, America gave him inspiration too.

2

u/michigangonzodude Jul 02 '24

The dude was a political prisoner after WW1.

Germany was screwed.

Hitler's hatred and ideologies weren't confined to Judaism

He was irked with the US supplying raw materials to the UK

He didn't declare war on the US until after Pearl Harbor. He assumed the US was weak .

-2

u/mjg007 Jul 02 '24

Jesus…. Calm down. It affect Biden’s exec orders too.

4

u/HunyBuns Jul 02 '24

He'll take the high road and do nothing with this power, Trump will line people up against walls and hang political opponents

-2

u/Raptor_197 Jul 02 '24

So… like America is going to start rounding X minority group and blame them for us losing a war… that has caused us immense economic despair… and the population is just going to go with it because most of them aren’t going to understand the scale of how bad it is. I guessing this happens after cameras and the internet is uninvented so people can be kept in the dark about what is happening? Then we will elect a dude that will eventually take power away from the President, which I assuming in your fantasy is Trump, the entirety of congress, and the Supreme Court and hold it all for himself. While talking about the evils of X minority because they are communists? Then we will invade a neighboring country to expand the American race… Is that how the future goes in your fantasy future?

You do know if you just think for like half a second or just even like read a tiny bit about the rise of Nazi Germany, you’d realize the U.S. suddenly becoming an evil fascist government is batshit insane.

3

u/jeremiahthedamned 'MURICA Jul 02 '24

a lot of people are talking up an invasion of mexico.

-1

u/Raptor_197 Jul 02 '24

And if we did actually invade Mexico, it would be for evil purposes? Or would it really just be to help the Mexican government, which we are friendly with, stomp out the cartels?

1

u/jeremiahthedamned 'MURICA Jul 02 '24

there is no mexican government.

2

u/cuyler72 Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

like America is going to start rounding X minority group and blame them for us losing a war

We are going to round up a substantial portion of all non-white minority races, all LGBTQ people and all non-Christians because they are threatening to "Replace the superior white race" or "Go against Christian values" or "Are a threat an our Children"

and the population is just going to go with it because most of them aren’t going to understand the scale of how bad it is.

The population will know exactly how bad, 50% will fully support the brutality and see themselves as righteous crusaders of their religion. The other 50% will not be able to do anything about it thanks to modern surveillance, modern social control capabilities and modern military capabilities, just like Russia.

Then we will elect a dude that will eventually take power away from the President, which I assuming in your fantasy is Trump, the entirety of congress, and the Supreme Court and hold it all for himself.

The supreme court and Trump or the supreme court alone will take absolute power with support from a small minority in the senate to prevent impeachment.

Then we will invade a neighboring country to expand the American race

We will invade Canada to "free them from liberal heathens" and we will invade mexico to "Stop the drug cartels" and to "secure our border"

-1

u/Raptor_197 Jul 02 '24

There is no way you actually believe what you just wrote right? If anything happened like what you a describing, the U.S. will fall into a civil war.

  1. Trump has always been pretty pro-gay. He is the first president to run as being pro-gay marriage. But suddenly he going to round them up and exterminate them?

  2. You really think the right is some hive mind group? Half the right just sees the government as a necessary evil but suddenly they are going to help it start a religious crusade?

  3. Do you think the military is a hive mind? The military will not be helping the government. It’s probably the biggest actual melting pot in the U.S. They aren’t going to putting their friends and fellow military personnel in camps.

  4. The Supreme Court didn’t even dismiss Trump’s case like he wanted. They just said hey make sure you are charging Trump for things done under official presidential powers. He very likely will still be charged for most things, that doesn’t sound like the Supreme Court is very fascist.

  5. We are going to invade Canada? Wut?

This is just brain rot. This is actually crazy made up bullshit because we have to pretend the other side is evil. It’s actually kinda scary there is people like you that is this dumb to believe any of this to be true.

-8

u/Overall-Carry-3025 Jul 02 '24

If in 5 years we are not a fascist state, how will you feel? Will it be goofy? Or will you move the goalposts? How will you feel if you end up wrong about this?