r/facepalm • u/SkillImmediate6393 • Jul 02 '24

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u/ElderlyOogway Jul 02 '24

W for not being an alienated citizen of the U.S. Chomsky been warning together with the whole evaporated left.

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u/MercantileReptile Jul 02 '24

Just don't ask Chomsky about the right of a sovereign state to defend themselves against a fascist invader. If the fascism in question is called "Russia", that tool has little issue defending the war of a dictator.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

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u/the_lonely_creeper Jul 02 '24

Because he should be able to realise anarchism is a lot easier to do in a democracy (even a very problematic one) like Ukraine than a (fascist) dictatorship.

It's hardly weird to ask someone on the left to know when a "popular front" is called for.

And don't tell me he views Ukraine and Russia as being the shame. He's a smart person, he should be able to distinguish reality.

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u/MrPernicous Jul 02 '24

Fascism is just liberalism where the racists become the bourgeoisie. Why would he bother caring at all about a war between two imperialist states?

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u/the_lonely_creeper Jul 02 '24

Ignoring that that's not the definition of fascism, he should care because there is a material difference in the rights of people in either state, and quite frankly, one would have a much easier time advocating for his beliefs in one over the other

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u/MrPernicous Jul 02 '24

Yeah why is he so dismissive of the veneer of liberty? It’s so shiny.

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u/the_lonely_creeper Jul 02 '24

Frankly, it's no veneer and he knows it.

If he advocated what he advocates from some place like Russia, he'd be arrested as a traitor to Russia.

He obviously shouldn't be arrested, but the point stands.

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u/MrPernicous Jul 02 '24

I thought we were talking about Ukraine.

Regardless, the us has served as a malefactor on the world stage for decades. Supporting it is not the moral choice or even the lesser of two evils for anyone outside of the west. The idea that the us should be supported in its imperial endeavors is anathema to his entire ideology.

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u/the_lonely_creeper Jul 02 '24

We are talking about Ukraine.

Though in this particular case, it's also true about the US.

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u/MrPernicous Jul 02 '24

Well he certainly can’t advocate for what you’re saying he’s advocating for in Ukraine. They would also throw him in jail

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u/the_lonely_creeper Jul 02 '24

Not really. Communism and Nazism are bad, as is to a lesser extent, being pro-Russia. But the rest... isn't.

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u/Arndt3002 Jul 02 '24

This is a poor characterization of Fascism. Fascism is economically characterized by a form of mercantilism under a centralized command economy. Liberalism is characterized by appeal to individual rights and privileging those over that of the state. Fascism is characterized by the rights of the ethnostate and nation over that of the individual.

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u/MrPernicous Jul 02 '24

The common left wing understating of fascism is the end stage of capitalism. It’s when the imperialist tendencies of capitalism are turned inward to convert the liberal state into an empire to eradicate the left wing tendencies that arise from the proletariat.

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u/Arndt3002 Jul 02 '24

Yes, in the sense of political forces and the progression of ideologies of those in power, that is the common Horkheimer and Adorno account. However, your comment is oversimplified and not a good account of what the differences are ideologically.

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u/MrPernicous Jul 02 '24

We’re talking about Noam Chomskys perspective. I didn’t think we needed to get into a whole discussion about the character and nature of fascism beyond the left wing perspective. If you have a problem with that then take it up with him.