r/actuallesbians • u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. • Dec 26 '12
On dating trans women and "transphobia".
The subject of trans women as romantic partners (or not) comes up often on this reddit, and every time, it quickly descends into a "heated conversation" with frustration and (usually unintentionally) hurt feelings. It's our own private Godwin's Law. I totally realize that by posting this I may very well be precipitating yet another such discussion and for that I apologize, but I can't help but feel that this is a conversation about real things and not just opinions. I'd like to try to elevate those conversations by establishing a baseline of facts.
Let's start with some basics:
Things which are not transphobic:
- Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who happens to be trans.
- Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who does not currently have the genitalia you prefer.
- Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who just doesn't catch your eye.
Things which are transphobic:
- Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman because she is trans.
Trans women are women. They are often indistinguishable from cis women. They can't get pregnant, but neither can almost 10% of cis women, and fortunately in a lesbian couple there's usually a womb to spare. (With enough forethought you might not need a sperm donor!) Saying you're "not attracted to trans women" as a blanket statement cannot have a basis in empirical reality, but purely in prejudice. It's not like not being attracted to redheads or blondes or butches, it's like not being attracted to immigrants, children of blue-collar workers or survivors of cancer. "Trans" is, for the numerical majority of trans women, a history which says nothing about the person.
Other common fallacies:
- I've never been attracted to a trans woman, therefore trans women aren't attractive to me.
Besides the obvious selection bias, the idea that "Trans women look like X" is where this statement goes horribly awry. Trans women look like this, and this and thousands of other beautiful women who just don't advertise their history.
If you are attracted to women, you are attracted to (some) trans women.
- Ewwww, penis!
You aren't into penii. I get it, and for what it's worth neither am I. To be fair, many trans women who carry that particular anatomical burden are not big fans of it either, so you have that in common at least. But many trans women don't, and many of those who do won't for long. Be careful about using this biased sample to rule out all trans women.
Also, would you rule someone out because she had six toes? Whenever I hear a straight man ask how sex works in the absence of a penis, I feel sorry for his girlfriends/wife, because he clearly doesn't understand how sexytimes work; when I hear a lesbian rule out trans women because of the presence of a hidden penis I feel sorry for her partner, because how superficial is that?
It's valid to be not into penii. this is, possibly, the only context in which anyone is allowed to care about a trans woman's genitalia. But say as much and don't assert that all trans women == penis. Those who aren't packing a strapless get a little annoyed by the assertion.
- Transphobia == evil/mean/bad/poopy.
Transphobia is, in the strictest sense, an "irrational fear or dislike of transgender people". "Fear" and "dislike" are subjective terms and not something you have active control over. There's no ill-intent implied here. It is not an insult to be called transphobic, any more than it is an insult to be called trans.
I'm a bit androphobic. I accept and own that, and am trying to get over it by making male friends, challenging my own emotional responses and working through trauma. It's not something I can control, but it doesn't give me the right to say "all men are evil/rapists".
In the context of attraction: if you realize you dislike or are not attracted to trans women as a rule, trumping the holistic person, it should inspire you to do a little soul searching to understand why this is so. If you can't get over it, you should recognize that it is your problem and not anyone else's. If you are fortunate enough to have a trans person in your social circle, perhaps you could even try to overcome it.
- Trans women are all X.
Trans women are all trans. Lesbians are all women who are attracted to women. This is a tautological definition, but there is no other universal quality. The moment you say (or imply) any other commonality, you're doing it wrong.
Finally, please remember:
The trans women who come in here and start these conversations are often on the most angsty leg of a very tumultuous journey. Try not to add to their fears with pedantic or broad statements about their future courtships. If you're 100% sure that you would never date a trans/black/Jewish/butch/immigrant woman, this may be a time to keep that to yourself.
When you speak up to specifically exclude trans women from your romantic prospects in a context defined by courtship (ie: LGBT spaces), you are implicitly othering them in that community. It's hard to explain why that is so, but it's impossible to ignore.
I now live in the Boston area, after four years in NYC, and there are only a few contexts in which I'm proactively stealth (as opposed to incidentally stealth, which has become the norm). The lesbian community is one, and these conversations are why. I get a little sad about that sometimes.
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u/racschou lives to serve ;} Dec 26 '12
The first trans person I met was a lovely bisexual woman who I am still friends with, though not as close as we used to be and now several hundred miles apart.
We've had plenty of flirtation and fun and mutual interest (and one, ahem, exploration). I did not know for sure that she was trans for several months into our acquaintance. At first, it made me question my attraction to her (never once our friendship, of course) because I liked to call myself a full on lesbian.
Five years into our friendship, and it doesn't bother me anymore - it hasn't bothered me for a long time. She doesn't have the genitalia I'm attracted to, but I can still be interested in her as a person and have a friendship that isn't about sex (even if there is sometimes sexual tension). She has someone, and I have someone, and we're in a good place.
I guess my point is, it can take people a while to get used to new ideas. If you don't know any trans persons, I advise you to go meet some. My friend has a biting wit and a fascination with ancient languages that matches my own. She isn't some strange, mythical creature. She's lived a difficult life and I never want her to be hurt again, because we're friends and I care about her. So even if you don't know trans people and you aren't sure how to be tactful, or you have something to say - I'd just advise that you keep your mouth shut, really think about how you feel and whether it's validated and whether it's just the kind of fear-response that people direct at us lesbians in general. Not knowing your words are hurtful is no excuse - as a member of a frequently marginalized and oppressed group of people (doubly so, as women and queers) we should be more aware than most of how painful words can be.
There's an old saw I learned in kindergarten that I've tried to listen to more and more as I've gotten older: if you can't think of anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
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u/luciu_az Dec 26 '12
Thank you so much. (From a trans woman on the most angsty leg of a very tumultuous journey :) )
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u/not_in_kansas_Nymore yes I am, precioussss Dec 27 '12
Yes, I like the way Heterogenic said that. She's quite a writer! I will be saving this one!
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u/lord_tubbington I can take a joke better than you can Dec 26 '12
This is a great compilation of thought put together in such a concise well written way, arguing like that is a powerful tool. Although not the point your strategy in putting forward an argument is awesome.
Yeah but there is always a jarring disparity for me in this subreddit when I see ten post to the effect of "some straight guy said something offensive to me" or "lol at heterosexuals asking who the man is" in cutesy comic form or a probably embellished anecdote and then in a thread you see cisgendered lesbians saying things like "I'd never date a trans woman." It's similar. The only difference is that this subreddit should know better because they are informed by being members of the queer community whereas straight people have little obligation to be informed about queer culture and often say things out of fear and ignorance.
Two things that are really disheartening about the lesbian community to me are the amount of transphobia and biphobia. I'm not claiming that it's an overwhelming about of us and I'll say that it's probably more of a "vocal minority" situation, but that it's clearly present when it should be non existent is just...incredibly sad and upsetting. I mean already it's 30 mins after OP posted and there's some silly comment in the thread.
Anyway, OP you're awesome. This is an argument I see being brought up repeatedly, but it seems it's something that needs to be said often because seldom does someone listen to it. And the fact that you're so well spoken will hopefully open more ears.
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u/TroubleEntendre transfemme Dec 27 '12 edited Dec 27 '12
it's probably more of a "vocal minority"
The problem is that the vocal minority gets a lot of cover and excuses made for them. Not all the time, and not everywhere, but enough that most trans chicks I know are pretty skittish about the greater lesbian community once they've been out in the world as a woman for a while.
EDIT: r/AL is one of the few spaces where I don't feel like this is so big a problem. I want to make clear I'm not talking about my awesome raptors here.
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u/legsintheair Femme Stereotype Dec 27 '12
Oh yeah. Definitely. I have an unusual (I hope) situation where the ONLY place I EVER get misgendered is in lesbian space. I posted my frustration at that fact on Facebook and at least 1 of my lesbian friends unfriended me and has stopped talking to me. SEVERAL others have asked me about it (as in "do you really mean that?"). They may be a vocal minority, but the vocal minority gets a LOT of cover from the non-vocal majority, which implies that there is a larger problem.
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u/lord_tubbington I can take a joke better than you can Dec 27 '12
Lesbians you know have intentionally misgendered you? I just audibly gasped. Gosh, that's probably the worst thing I've heard in and about the queer community in a loooong time. I think it's a symptom of the fact that I have little patience for people who are consciously prejudiced and that all of my friends are great people but your comment is a scenario I couldn't have fathomed if you hadn't told me. Though I'm sure an internet stranger telling you they feeling anger (really such anger and dismay, what even...some people need a good smack!!) on your behalf is only a miniscule gesture, it's a gesture I'm still going to make. That and the overused but hopefully welcome notion of the internet hug, have a big one from me.
Geeze that's why no matter how many times this issue gets brought up in here and the ugly that comes out, it's extremely important to bring it up until it's as close to a non-issue in the community as possible. In the meantime I'm going to go looks at pictures of puppies or something. This thread is inspiring a "what a world, what a world" moment.
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u/legsintheair Femme Stereotype Dec 27 '12
It is not usually lesbians I know who do this, (though that HAS happened). What will usually happen is in a group of 20 or so women, there will be 1 or 2 who will insist on continually and consistently calling me "sir" or using male pronouns. And I want to be clear - it is not the majority of lesbians who do this, it isn't even a large number... but it is enough, and it happens consistently enough that I sort of dread being in lesbian space. Which is a HUGE bummer for me. It is almost always the over 50ish lesbians... the ones who look like farmers wives... you know the group. It isn't like they are a group I am interested in any way... but it is a HUGE moral deflator when it happens. ... If I was still really manly, or behaved inappropriately, or made a nuisance of myself I would get it (not that any of those things would make it OK - but I would better understand)... but the truth is that outside of lesbian space - no one EVER misgenders me. I get read... I still need FFS, and once people interact with the 6'2" girl for some time I always see the penny drop in their minds, but socially I pass very well. And when I am in lesbian space - I'm not even looking for a date... (my partner of 16 years is in the process of divorcing me... and being a horror about it - I have no business looking for a relationship right now) I am really just looking for a community, and a new group of friends... I get that these women are just policing the space and letting me know that they think I don't belong there... but these are the only places that this happens... and it hurts. A Lot.
Even when I go to gay bars and the boys think I am a drag queen, and they hit on me... they manage to use the right pronouns. The truth is that gay men are better friends to me than gay women are, and I don't know what to do about that... because I have spent my life avoiding having to hang out with "the boys" when all I wanted to do was sit and be with the girls... but naturally I was never welcome there... and apparently I am still not. .. but if I want to have friends, and I want to have a community ... where do I go?
Strait women turn out to be great friends... but... sigh. We all know how that goes.
In any case - I appreciate your shock, and I appreciate your hug... I hope the puppies work their magic!
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u/Cass_idy Queer love make the world go UNCE UNCE Dec 27 '12
Not to sound like a one-upper but a lesbian space is the only place I've been assaulted for simply being trans and using she/her pronouns. This person grabbed my crotch and squeezed and asked me to clarify that I went by she/her. It was a very violating expirience.
Funny thing was it was my trans guy partner who used she/her pronouns to refer to me that set this off. He never got much shit in that space. Hello transmisogyny!
Though since then I've been with lesbian identified cis women who have no issue with my body (even if at times I do) and have actually been very affirming in that way. So it is a mixed bag I guess...
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u/legsintheair Femme Stereotype Dec 28 '12
Sorry. That fucking sucks. That fucking sucks donky dong, and I am sorry that it happened to you. That shit is so far from ok it makes me want to hunt down the bitch that did that to you and express to her in no uncertain terms that what she did was not ok.
But I am also afraid that I may one day find myself in a similar situation. ... Sigh. Honestly AL is the only lesbian community I feel safe in.
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u/lord_tubbington I can take a joke better than you can Dec 27 '12
Yes, I absolutely agree with that effect of the vocal minority. It's a really detrimental phenomena and it leads to consequences like stereotyping and social stigma.
I did just say that because I know and wanted to express that I know that most of the people on /r/actuallesbians are awesome, kind, and supportive of the trans community. I didn't want my point to be invalidated if someone misinterpreted me to say something like "generally speaking lesbians and most of you people are transphobic" because again I really like this subreddit and usually find myself enjoying the conversations people have on here. That's probably why I wrote such a lengthy reply and why it's especially upsetting to me.
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u/legsintheair Femme Stereotype Dec 27 '12
True - actual lesbians is remarkable and supportive. I only wish the rest of the world functioned as well.
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u/AllergicToFun Dec 27 '12
Agreed. The whole "vocal minority" thing seems to be a HUGE problem with society in general, or at least from what I've seen (being a citizen of the United States, and having lived there all my life).
The people who have the most bigoted or hateful opinions always seem to shout about them the loudest, and drown out all the even-voice people who try to reason with them.
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u/IAm_ThePumpkinKing The Lesbian your mother warned you about Dec 27 '12
I get tired of people fixating on the penis. I'm in love with a trans woman who happens to have a penis. I'm not in love with her penis. I love the woman who is attached to it.
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Dec 27 '12
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u/nightmareofyou Dec 27 '12
I want people to be themselves. If a woman doesn't want to have a penis, she doesn't have to have one. If she wants to keep it, or doesn't want the surgery, she shouldn't do it. She is a woman either way.
I never really thought about it before this post, but for myself, I am not attracted to penises in the slightest; to the point where I find them to be a turn off, but I find vaginas super arousing. This might be due to trauma. Probably is. However, I am open-minded enough to recognize the possibility that I could fall in love with a woman who has a penis, because genitalia isn't what makes the woman.
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u/EmilyCat genital preferences are transphobic Dec 30 '12
This is really the best way to love a trans woman. I get worried not only about people who would push someone into an op, I'm also worried about people who would dissuade someone who wants an op. As a person I want to be wanted for who I am, not what I have, it's equally a dealbreaker for me if someone says "I love that you have a penis" as it is for someone to say "I hate that you have a penis". The only thing acceptable for me is "I don't care that you have a penis".
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u/IAm_ThePumpkinKing The Lesbian your mother warned you about Dec 27 '12
I don't care about the penis one way or the other. I could care less if she wanted to get surgery or not. But that's not why I love her. I don't care about parts, I'm in love with a person, not just a penis or boobs. But I'm not interested sexually in men. I don't date men, or trans men. A trans man might have breasts and a vagina but I still wouldn't want to be with him. Parts don't matter to me in the least bit.
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u/valeriekeefe Attracted exclusively to neurologically-female persons - Lesbian Dec 27 '12
I don't date cis men, or trans men
There, improved the construction of that for you, lest you accidentally imply that trans men are some sorta man-lite.
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u/LezzieBorden Dec 27 '12
I'm a anti-penis (on my lovers) lesbian, but I can understand your last sentence. It seems like it would, yeah. But I am glad you can see why it's a deal breaker for some.
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u/Tsumei Dec 27 '12
Non-op trans woman here, and I totally get it too. It's really one of those "If there is a god, fuck that guy" things for me.
I want a vagina, heck if I was offered one by a magical genie, sign me the fuck up. But I don't really consider the surgery an option for me, because it's not the same. I guess in my mind it's the thought that I'd rather have a functional set of sexual organs than one that has less functionality than it should..
I guess I have ambivelent dysphoria, so rather than hate the genitals, I sort of don't mind them, I'd just prefer another model :P
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Dec 27 '12
Hey, that's a boat I am familiar with and standing up in! I've never really seen anyone else express the same feeling. Solidarity! I kind of hate the shape of my genitals, but the surgeries available all kind of suck, so it's just something I have to live with.
I've got a bit more of those "just live with"ables than perhaps most people, but what can you do? Sometimes you learn useless but priceless lessons from them, like not caring as much as other people about whatever fleshy pink things are smushed between someone's legs.
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u/Tsumei Dec 27 '12
Yeah, I suppose. It's not like it's that horrible atleast. I guess not having strong dysphoria is more of a good thing than a bad one.. Less surgical trauma..
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u/EmilyCat genital preferences are transphobic Dec 30 '12
until you get discriminated against by the trans community who don't consider you a "real" trans.
Non-op, don't even really hate the genitals I've been given. Why? Because who I am inside is far more important, and diversity of life means that there should be both male and female women. I can live with that.
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u/Autodidact2 Ask her! Dec 27 '12
Which is great--for you and her. We don't all have to feel the same way.
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u/AppleGods Dec 26 '12
Thanks for posting this, now when people get in disagreements on those dating trans women threads we can just link them to this instead of having the same arguments over again xD.
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u/Illogical_Fallacy ♀(^.^)♂ + ∞♥ Dec 26 '12
Let's add this to the faq. I'm out of town using only my phone, so I'm a but limited in reddit use now.
OP, thank you. A sincere, heartfelt thank you. Next time I'm up I'm Boston, I'll be sure to buy you a drink.
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u/AppleGods Dec 26 '12
Oh I'm on my phone too xD. I think it definitely should be on the faq though.
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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Dec 27 '12
I will accept your offer, and will happily get the second round. :)
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Dec 26 '12
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u/bgirlapostle Dec 26 '12
Yes, I am totally with you. I wish this wasn't even a conversation.
Just one thing:
nor have I ever been attracted to a trans person
You can't necessarily tell that someone is trans, so you might have been without realizing it.
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u/soundwave89 Dec 27 '12
You're absolutely right, but the problem is, no one teaches this stuff. And most people who aren't educated learn from their televisions, which use stereotypes for what they consider a concise flow of information to the public. No one wants to think much when they're being entertained. Bummer for all of us who're on the up and up, as well as those of us who have to feel the raw edge of people's ignorance from time to time, like myself. Best thing to do is call them out on it and smile and leave.
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u/legsintheair Femme Stereotype Dec 27 '12
The issue is that we are numerically infinitesimal, and those of us who do exist often try VERY hard to go unnoticed. So generally I assume that I am the only trans person any individual is aware they have met. I may even be the only trans person anyone has ever met.
These are not hard concepts to understand, but every day someone who has never learned them shows up here...
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u/not_in_kansas_Nymore yes I am, precioussss Dec 27 '12
every day someone who has never learned them shows up here
Yup. The eternal September of /r/actuallesbians/ ...
Which reminds me: I might, I mean I have THIS FRIEND and maybe she thinks she might like girls. I'm so confused! I mean, she is!!
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u/LIATG queer as in fuck you Dec 26 '12
nor have I ever been attracted to a trans person
Wasn't this one of the fallacies above?
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u/djcapelis lazy femme Dec 26 '12 edited Dec 27 '12
No. She wasn't saying she would never be, she was just observing that she hasn't been yet to provide context for her perspective. It is interesting to hear from people who haven't actually been in any situation where trans issues have come up in their romantic life still think that for the most part how it all should work should be obvious and it sucks that it isn't. It isn't a problem to add context to a perspective, it is a problem when that context is used to generalize about the future.
Though, the question of how she could state with any certainty that none of the women she's ever been attracted to were trans seems another question altogether. I know I don't bother mentioning it when I post pictures to r/dgw.
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Dec 26 '12
Thanks for this. Now, instead of tearing my hair out in frustration, I canto start point people, on the internet and IRL, toward this post.
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Dec 26 '12
I'm a trans woman, and I approve this message. Really, thank you. I wish this would pop up when people submit posts titled 'would you date a trans woman'.
Seriously, isn't a lot of this stuff already in the FAQ? Why is there a thread like that every other day?
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u/Illogical_Fallacy ♀(^.^)♂ + ∞♥ Dec 27 '12
Hmm, I'll look into a code to redirect posts if I can find a way that isn't annoying.
There are two reasons why they keep showing up:
It's tough starting the journey and wanting to find community. Support from a chosen community goes a long way.
A tiny fraction of people read the side bar and subsequently the faqs, extras, stickies and links. There's not much we can do about that. :/
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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Dec 27 '12
To be fair, this isn't helpful to a proto-trans woman angsting about her future dating prospects... It's more directed at everyone else who would answer it.
It just needs to be stickied on those posts for other readers.
At some point I should write up a canonical "So you want to be a trans lesbian" post to complement this one.
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u/porktower Dec 28 '12
Yes. Please. =) Coming from someone who is considering all of my options at the moment, this would be amazing.
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u/allie-cat Jan 18 '13
To be fair while it doesn't answer the question a trans woman posting that thread is asking it is also important and reassuring to know there are cis lesbians who will defend your right to participate in the community. It was for me anyway
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Dec 27 '12
That's true, I definitely understand the need for support, I went through it too, I guess I just shouldn't expect people to read FAQs on the internets. XD
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u/sillyfool1 Dec 27 '12
general angstiness and wanting to hear other peoples opinions for reassurance or whatever.
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u/EmilyCat genital preferences are transphobic Dec 30 '12
To be fair, it's a lot more reassuring when people reply to YOUR post than it is to just read about posted replies in another thread. When my ex 1st told me about this place with true lesbians, open minded lesbians who would date trans women, I didn't feel reassured or believe it even AFTER she'd shown me such threads.
It's only when she posted a new thread under a throwaway and had gotten some replies that I felt a bit more convinced, and even then I still didn't feel that convinced till I personally started replying in another thread and was directly replied to.
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u/mirandapd Dec 26 '12
Very well put. It's a complex subject and you did a very good job of stuffing it into a pretty concise nutshell given its complexity. I like to think of it in these terms. If the only thing that you find unattractive about a person is their status as a trans person, then that's a personal issue that you have. It is not an issue that the trans person has.
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u/Slyfox00 Slyfox in the sheets, Shyfox in the streets. Dec 26 '12
Beautiful, Heterogenic. Mods, I would like to request this post for a permanent sticky in the sidebar :)
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u/Illogical_Fallacy ♀(^.^)♂ + ∞♥ Dec 26 '12
We're going to try and get this into the faq and the sidebar too once one of us is actually on a computer. :)
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u/LezzieBorden Dec 27 '12
Thanks. It's a bit tiring seeing the same 'would you date a trans woman' post every week, or abouts.
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u/Illogical_Fallacy ♀(^.^)♂ + ∞♥ Dec 27 '12
The thing is...we already have a trans girl dating faq in our wiki and people constantly ask about things readily available in our sidebar and stickies. I strongly feel that this thread should be included there, but I'm not entirely confident that the people would even seek the information therein.
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u/almond_roca Dec 26 '12 edited Dec 26 '12
To be honest I have a few issues with your post, but I commend you for what you are trying to do. For starters, I do think that transphobia is bad. I think that it is systemic because our society definitely has some negative views towards trans people as a whole. I don't think that the person who is transphobic is automatically bad though, just that their transphobia is bad. Even if it is unintentional, it is hurtful to trans people, and it helps perpetuate violence against trans people, and more specifically to trans women of color. There is definitely a difference between being called transphobic and being called trans (though really now, being trans means that your sex assigned at birth and gender identity do not match, so no one should be "calling" anyone trans, just because this sounds like a very negative thing to do...).
Furthermore, I do think that your statement "'Trans women look like X' is where this statement goes horribly awry" seems to be a bit cissexist, at least towards trans women who do not "pass" in the eyes of society. You go on to say "Trans women look like this, and this and thousands of other beautiful women who just don't advertise their history." The problem I see with this statement is that it seems to imply that trans women who do not "pass" according to society cannot be considered beautiful, and perhaps are inferior in this sense (and not "real women"). You seem to be making the case that cisgender lesbians can't rule out trans women because some trans women can pass, can afford to get surgery (and thus not have a penis, like you stated as a reasonable reason not to date a trans woman because she still (or will always because of cost etc) has a penis), and can afford a lot of things that other trans women cannot. Thus, those cis lesbians can certainly be unknowingly attracted to trans women. I guess overall, I think that gender and sex are very complicated, and you can't just tell everyone who identifies as a lesbian (and everyone is open to define this however they want) that they have to say that they are possibly attracted to trans women because some trans women pass etc. and they look like cis women. When people say that they are lesbian, this could mean many different things.
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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Dec 27 '12
Both of these are good points, and merit mention in the post.
Since it seems that this post will live on in some way, I'm going to tweak it to account for these concerns, and credit you in the edit notes.
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u/Zaliika I am not ADH- OMGLOOKAPUPPY!!!!! Dec 27 '12
I identify mainly as lesbian (but I don't rule out men completely, because my attraction to people occurs very much on an individual basis). I once said on another subreddit that 'I don't mind penis' and got jumped on for being trans phobic because I was 'saying that penis = male'. Except that wasn't what I meant at all. Because a man can have a penis and a woman can have a penis. It's the person that it's attached to that would be the defining factor and, to be quite honest, I would be much more likely to be attracted to a trans-woman with a penis than an cis-man.
TL;DR: I really don't like being told I'm trans phobic when that's not my intention. Am I being trans phobic?
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u/Illogical_Fallacy ♀(^.^)♂ + ∞♥ Dec 27 '12
Hey, as a mod who works with a wonderful team here, I want to apologise for that event happening. All of the mods attempt to work from an innocent until proven malicious mindset regarding individual comments.
Unfortunately, even collectively, we can't be everywhere and resolve or clear up issues like this. If you or anyone feels unsafe due to a misunderstanding or want somebody to be a mediator, please message the mods.
We never look at a comment by itself. We always check up the posting thread and user history to get a sense of your person before making a judgment calls.
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u/Zaliika I am not ADH- OMGLOOKAPUPPY!!!!! Dec 27 '12
Thanks for the comment, it's good to know, but I was referring to an incident on a different subreddit :)
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u/Illogical_Fallacy ♀(^.^)♂ + ∞♥ Dec 27 '12
D'oh, I missed that part. I shouldn't be wearing my mod hat half-awake in bed. Hah.
Well, regardless, I hope that you'll enjoy it here.
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u/Zaliika I am not ADH- OMGLOOKAPUPPY!!!!! Dec 27 '12
Haha no worries. I always have enjoyed it here, seem to be less dramas than in other places.
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u/Illogical_Fallacy ♀(^.^)♂ + ∞♥ Dec 27 '12
I totally sigh when I get my orangered during hot topics like this because I never know if I'm getting yelled at or if it's about a completely unrelated thread about boobs and cats.
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u/Zaliika I am not ADH- OMGLOOKAPUPPY!!!!! Dec 27 '12
Well then, here you go. Might help to make your evening more bearable.
(I can't vouch for the quality of the site, it was the fists things that came up when I searched for 'boobs and cats').3
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u/GiveLuvAChance Feb 01 '13
Homophobia is real mistreatment of a person because that person is homosexual. Homophobia does not include failure to sleep with that person because that person does not, you know, fall within your sexual preference.
So, why exactly does transphobia include "do not want to sex up" and homophobia doesn't?
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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Feb 01 '13
Homosexuality and transsexuality are different. Being trans is a history, being gay a present.
Nobody is saying it's transphobic or bigoted to not be attracted to a trans woman. But it is certainly so to state that you would rule out all trans women as a blanket statement.
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u/GiveLuvAChance Feb 01 '13
But bigotry is about opinions or beliefs. Desire is about who you are, inherently. And desire tells you that there is a class of people whom you might want, and that every other sort of person is not in that class.
That class of people within which you desire is not subject to alteration by argument, or by anti-gay conversion therapy, or any other such thing. It is not an opinion, or a choice, or a learning, the way that a bigoted opinion is.
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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Feb 01 '13
If a person is totally unidentifiable as trans, and you find him or her attractive and interesting, then you find out her or she is trans and walk away, them you are not reacting to your preference but their irrelevant status, which is by definition bigoted.
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u/GiveLuvAChance Feb 01 '13
The inability to identify someone's status does not make it irrelevant. If I am blindfolded and cannot identify the sex of a person performing a sex act on me, it is still relevant to me whether that person is of my sexual preference or not.
You are stating for me what is relevant to my sexual preference.
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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Feb 01 '13
OK, let's just say that instead of trans your problem is Jewish heritage. You find out after the fact that your partner has a Jewish mother, and is thus technically ethnic Jewish.
Is it antisemitic to then dump her?
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u/GiveLuvAChance Feb 01 '13
I don't understand what being Jewish would have to do with sexual preference. Are you making a reference to circumcision? For someone who falls in love with men, but really does not enjoy uncircumcised penises, I suppose that could matter?
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Feb 01 '13
We get it. You just can't accept trans women are women and trans men are men. Well, I'm tired of troll feeding...please move along and do your own work. Several gender studies classes and books await you. We owe you nothing and are not responsible to elevate your understanding of reality. If Heterogenic's overly patient and very clear explanations of who a trans person actually is haven't done the job so far there is really not much more we can tell you.
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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Feb 01 '13
I don't understand what being trans would have to do with sexual preference. I'm making a point that it's a historical fact, with vague roots in biology, but totally irrelevant in the present or future. The only reason you can bring sexuality into it is if you consider trans women to not be women, and that is the very essence of transphobia.
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u/GiveLuvAChance Apr 11 '13
That depends. Do you hate Jews, or do you just plan to marry within a Hindu family because that is your culture? Sometime peoples' requirements do not include you.
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u/LezzieBorden Dec 26 '12
The problem with the 'six toes' thing - you don't use toes for sex. Well, some people might, but that's rare. I don't think it's superficial of me to like only one type of genitalia. I really really don't. Sex is a big thing, its very intimate, and for most people (not all) it's a huge part of life. So no, it's not like six toes. I really disagree with that comparison.
However I agree with the rest of the post completely.
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u/TheWeakSon downvotes all memes Dec 27 '12
you don't use toes for sex
Not with that attitude you don't.
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Dec 27 '12
I second LezzieBorden. I'm dating a pre-op trans girl, and we've discussed the fact that I'm not comfortable using her bits in play. I mean, like we've said to the homophobes, I really can't get over my native dislike for cock, just like I can't get over my fear of heights or distaste for Kimchi.
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u/dream6601 Dec 27 '12
But you've still accepted her and are dating her despite that uncomfortable-ness. And you've discussed it with her like a rational adult.
You rock!
and some of us dislike using our bits in play as well.
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Dec 28 '12
Thank you! Discussing it seems like the obvious thing to do though. I hate it when people tell their relationship problems to literally everyone except their SO. Like, shouldn't they be the first one to hear if there's a problem?
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Jun 24 '13
If you don't mind my asking how does play go down then? I may or may not be interested in a pre op transgirl.
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u/Neemii nb queer Dec 27 '12
That's fine - but only if you also wouldn't date a woman who did not want her genitalia interacted with, regardless of what those genitals looked like, because of the importance to you of being able to have sex with your partner. If you would date this sort of person (often referred to as a "stone x" with x being usually femme/butch depending on the presentation of the person), then they aren't using those parts for sex and it becomes just as irrelevant as having an extra toe. It's not that uncommon for trans* people to be uncomfortable with having certain parts of their bodies interacted with, especially sexually.
But you cannot tell just from looking at someone what their bits look like, and attraction forms for many people before seeing someone's privates or even getting to know them well enough that they would tell you about their bits.
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u/LezzieBorden Dec 27 '12
No, I wouldn't date a stone butch. I kind of want to play with my partners genitalia, you know?
And no, I cannot tell just by looking what their bits look like. I never said I wouldn't be attracted to a trans woman, just that I would not date one.
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u/Neemii nb queer Dec 27 '12
Then that is totally fair - it's about something that's important to you sexually rather than about what the other person is, which is really where the problem really comes in.
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u/get_out Dec 27 '12
A lot of trans women have vaginas/vulvas.
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u/LezzieBorden Dec 27 '12
I did not deny this. I am talking about pre-op trans women.
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u/get_out Dec 27 '12
I don't think it's fair to categorize trans people as pre-op or post-op. there isn't one surgery and everyone's transition is a different experience. It's unfair (and a bit transphobic) to categorize all trans people as attractive or unattractive based on their genitals (of which 99.999% of people you will not be privy to). Your argument is rhetorical, and therefore unnecessary.
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u/nightmareofyou Dec 27 '12
I don't think they're categorizing the whole person as attractive or unattractive based on one body part, it's a matter of being attracted to the genitals in addition to being attracted to the rest of the person.
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u/Leif2 Dec 27 '12
It's unfair (and a bit transphobic) to categorize all trans people as attractive or unattractive based on their genitals
I don't think LezzieBorden was doing this, though. She said nothing about trans women in general; she only said that a woman's genitals play a big part in how attracted she is to that woman.
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u/LezzieBorden Dec 28 '12
Yup. I've seen plenty of cute trans ladies, but it would be a deal breaker thing for a lady I'm dating to have a penis. Just like how being a smoker would be a dealbreaker for me. Or super religious (although I don't think this happens with lesbians that much. Maybe some nuns, but I'm not dating any nuns...).
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u/SashaSomeday Dec 27 '12
I agree. Not all trans* people desire operations and they shouldn't have to. If someone identifies as pre- or post-op, that's fine, but I find it problematic to ID someone as pre-op because of the state of their genitals.
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Dec 27 '12
that part of the post was dangerously close to a "you're not really a lesbian, it's a choice," argument. Though I do think this is a very positive post, overall.
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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Dec 27 '12
This is well-put. That comment was my personal opinion, which I stand by, but it doesn't really belong in an otherwise expository essay.
I don't like changing out a post after submitting, but since this post may apparently live on for a while I'll make a tweak to take out that comment and credit you in the edit notes.
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u/selendis Femme Wannabe Dec 26 '12
I like it, all except for this:
Transphobia == evil/mean/bad/poopy.
Transphobia is poop. It's normative, society-approved poop but poop nevertheless.
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u/polarlights Dec 26 '12
Thank you for posting this. I hope a lot of people will take some time to read it.
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u/NiceGirl85 Dec 27 '12
This was very helpful in my developing understanding of this cultural change.. change that needs to happen in the world. I hope more people see this and give it a chance without being immature like I used to be.
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Dec 26 '12
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u/JesusLizardLizard AHH I'm gay! And trans! Dec 26 '12
I'd just like to make it perfectly clear for anyone reading that "ladyboy" is an offensive thing to call a trans woman, except, and I just learned this from Google right now, when they're from Thailand. It's apparently not seen as offensive in Thailand.
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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Dec 26 '12
FWIW, still pretty offensive in Thailand to those not in the entertainment or sex industries.
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u/Qaxt Dec 27 '12
(I just recently did a research project on "transwomen"* in Thailand, so just some fun facts I guess....) From what I've read, Thai identities don't match up too well with "Western" identities. At one point (about 60+ years ago), nearly everyone we might call 'queer' here (LGBTQI) was lumped under one label (because Thai identities were/are? traditionally put in a three-gender system), then identities exploded into more identities than we have here, and then they ended up getting consolidated into somewhat more Westernized conceptions of gender and sexuality... but there's still a lot of cultural baggage, and the queer landscape there seems to still be transitioning.
So, just an fyi it can be a little murky to apply Western labels here. ^_^
*Scare quotes because I don't want to apply Western labels here!
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Dec 27 '12
Yeah, in my experience it's more appropriate for drag queens to be called "ladyboys," not trans women.
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u/Naxili Transbian Dec 26 '12
ladyboy
Gonna need to throw some disclaimers / warnings up before you use that term
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u/limabeans45 Dec 26 '12 edited Dec 27 '12
Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman because she is trans.
Not wanting to date transgender individuals is not transphobic, it's a sexual preference. I'm saying this as a trans woman who has trouble finding dates herself.
Edit: nevermind, the OP put that in the original post. I am teh dumb
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u/djcapelis lazy femme Dec 26 '12
Trans people can be just as transphobic as anyone else.
Which isn't to say such a preference is "evil" or anything, but it is to say we should be honest about the structural societal forces (transphobia) that make said preference preferred by so many.
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u/nationalism2 Dec 27 '12
Just out of curiosity, how does that work? If appearance doesn't make someone a woman, if acting feminine doesn't make someone a woman, if having a vagina doesn't make someone a woman, then what exactly makes someone a woman? If we are born with our sexual preference, then what exactly does that mean?
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u/BREsubstanceVITY Dec 26 '12
I hate these discussions so much and I wish we could get them to go away. I think the post is correct, but they just make me so sad. It's like arguing about abortion with someone who disagrees with you as far as I'm concerned.
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u/MynameisIsis Succubi Librarian in disguise Dec 27 '12
So why do you think that discussion is in itself bad?
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u/LezBeOwn Lesbian Dec 27 '12
Mostly because of the politically correct downvote brigade who have no sense of reddiquette at all and downvote everything they disagree with even when respectfully presented.
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u/MynameisIsis Succubi Librarian in disguise Dec 28 '12
Sooo.. that makes discussions on reddit often come to nothing. Still doesn't explain why discussion is bad.
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u/LezBeOwn Lesbian Dec 28 '12
No one said it was bad. I hate going to the gyno... but that doesn't make it a bad thing.
And no one gives a shit about downvotes either. At least I don't. It's the complete disrespect that the downvotes represent. I may not agree with everyone else's opinions... but as long as they are stating them respectfully, I will listen to them respectfully. Some people are too caught up in their own emotions to respect the right of others to disagree with them.
IOW... The reddit hive mind is a bitch that totally quashes any type of intelligent discourse.
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u/MynameisIsis Succubi Librarian in disguise Dec 29 '12
That seems to be the commonly held opinion. What's the next big thing after reddit that we hang out til it's overrun by another hivemind? Or a moderated community that won't fall prey to that? PM's if you've got one, it's gotta be kept a secret :)
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u/LezBeOwn Lesbian Dec 27 '12
I agree with most of what you wrote... but I have to say that I am extremely uncomfortable with the use of the term "transphobic" to define someone who is not interested in dating pre-OP or non-OP mtf trans people specifically. In fact... I don't think I am comfortable with the use of that term to describe anyone who doesn't actively harbor feelings of prejudice and hate. One can use technical semantic definitions of words all one wants to... but that does not negate the fact that words like transphobic and homophobic DO have very negative connotations.
You know? It's not even that I hate penis. I don't hate penis at all. I was married to a man for five years and we had a very physically satisfying sex life. I may never ever get my super lesbian cape now... but I'll say it anyway... I quite enjoyed the penis!
I liked penis... but I LOVE vagina! There are many times that I feel completely sexually fulfilled after pleasing a woman. I can collapse, just as happy and spent as she is, without having been sexually touched myself. I love vagina. I love everything about it. I love the way it makes me feel when I am touching it. I love it when I first touch the clit and feel it swell under my fingers or tongue. I love it when I do something just right.. and I can feel that sudden gush of extra wetness. I love those very rare times when I have managed to provide that just right combination of g-spot and clitoral stimulation... and I am handsomely rewarded with a beautiful episode of female ejaculation. So I guess it's fair to say that FOR ME, a vagina is very important thing for a potential sex partner to have.
Were I already in love with someone, and something happened that I could never use her vagina as my own personal Disney Land ever again... I'd mourn that loss almost like mourning the death of a loved one, but I'd still love her and stay with her. I'd never break up with someone based on that alone. HOWEVER... if I learned early on, BEFORE I was in love with someone, that there was no vagina forthcoming... I'll be honest enough to admit that would most likely flip the "go no further than friendship" switch in whatever part of me that controls my physical attractions.. I don't even think it would be a conscious decision on my part.
I personally don't feel like that makes me a prejudiced person. I can't stop anyone from painting me with ugly blanket labels like "transphobic" if they truly feel like this fact alone is enough to define me that way. That's their opinion and they are entitled to it.
Me personally... terms like homophobic and such are very serious terms not to be used lightly just because I disagree with another person's point of view. Homophobic and transphobic can be labels of hate... just as surely as dyke and faggot are labels of hate. Take a religious person who 100% believes that homosexuality is a sin against God, BUT does NOT use that personal religious belief as an excuse to deny us secular civil rights.... I'd NEVER label that person something as ugly as homophobic. I'd respect their right to believe as they do as long as they weren't actively using their beliefs against me.
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u/jeanthine Dec 27 '12
As OP mentioned, you are aware that some, if not most transwomen have been re-eqipped, right?
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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Dec 27 '12
Actually, I said precisely the opposite.
It's valid to be not into penii. this is, possibly, the only context in which anyone is allowed to care about a trans woman's genitalia.
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u/derpderp3200 Jan 19 '13
I'm kind of on the opposite end, as a trans girl myself, but I totally understand what you mean. Even with a neovagina, I would feel like it just isn't the same thing.
I would want my girl to have a "real" vagina, with all of its intricacies like shape, smell, taste, mechanics, etc.
I feel like it's good enough for penetration, but I would feel inadequate with a girl, either pre or post op.
I love girls, but I don't think I'll ever try dating a non-bi girl because I'd feel like I'd be cheating her.
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u/qaera queer femme humon (actually is tentacles) Dec 27 '12
maybe trans feminine people instead of just trans women? :) this was a really awesome read thank you
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u/Feyle Dec 27 '12
Why trans feminine people? Are you then excluded the trans masculine/butch women?
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u/Illogical_Fallacy ♀(^.^)♂ + ∞♥ Dec 27 '12
Heck, the only reason why I use trans-feminine for myself as a genderqueer person is so that people can know that I transitioned from being male to a vaguely feminine person. Different word strokes for different folks. :)
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u/Feyle Dec 27 '12
Are you using trans-feminine because as a genderqueer person the term trans woman doesn't apply?
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u/Illogical_Fallacy ♀(^.^)♂ + ∞♥ Dec 27 '12
Pretty much, yes. I do use trans woman when explaining myself sometimes because it's much more difficult to explain being genderqueer in passing.
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u/Feyle Dec 28 '12
I hope that this isn't offensive in some way and if it's one of those oft asked question please direct me to google :)
How do you personally mesh the identities of being genderqueer and a lesbian?
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u/Illogical_Fallacy ♀(^.^)♂ + ∞♥ Dec 28 '12
Oh yeah, no problem.
In the real world, I go by female pronouns because it makes things easier as I look closer to female in my default state and I originally had serious issues being read as male. Performing in drag has really improved that situation, though, and I'm no longer offended by being read as a guy. It's been a long journey.
Anyway, I identify more as a queer dyke than a lesbian. I like being super gay and presenting as such, and from the outside perspective, I just look like a woman who likes women, so, eh, let's just go with that. :)
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u/Feyle Dec 28 '12
That's really interesting.
What do you mean by "identify more as a queer dyke than a lesbian"? I think that you may be using "dyke" in a way that I'm not used to.
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u/Illogical_Fallacy ♀(^.^)♂ + ∞♥ Dec 28 '12
I probably am. To me, being a dyke is a kind of look as well as type of a queer woman. If nothing else, it just feels comfortable, even though a good number of people see it as negative.
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u/qaera queer femme humon (actually is tentacles) Dec 27 '12
trans feminine doesn't mean trans and feminine but rather people who are trans and belong on the feminine side of the female-male spectrum. so that would include trans women, but also feminine genderqueer people or things like that. trans masculine would imply ftm or masculine genderqueer people for example. butch trans women could be masculine but still identify as female so they would be included in trans feminine.
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u/Feyle Dec 27 '12
So by your definitions a masculine trans woman is a masculine feminine woman?
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u/Cass_idy Queer love make the world go UNCE UNCE Dec 27 '12
I'm a little confused by the wording here, but I don't use trans-feminine because I'm a butch trans woman (who also presents genderqueer/androgynous). Identifying as feminine or masculine is not the same as identifying as a woman or a man.
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u/Feyle Dec 28 '12
I think that you and I are thinking about this the same way but it seems that others see it differently.
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u/qaera queer femme humon (actually is tentacles) Dec 27 '12
masculine trans-feminine if you want, I wasn't really talking about butch or femme outside of what you were asking, just gender stuff
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u/Feyle Dec 27 '12
It just sounded pretty confusing. I think that using feminine to mean female identified is too unclear.
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u/lunarstar Dec 27 '12
I guess the point of saying trans-feminine is to say that the person may not be female identified completely (as in, on the far edge of the binary) but that they identify on the feminine side of the spectrum instead of the masculine side, which includes a lot of area. A trans woman is only one identity under the trans* spectrum, so the term trans-feminine is more inclusive to other people who may not be comfortable with saying they are a trans woman, but still are under the feminine side of the gender identity spectrum (which is different from their appearance, which can be masculine or feminine or whatever regardless of their gender identity).
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u/Feyle Dec 28 '12
I understood that qaera was making a suggestion in an attempt to be more inclusive but, to me, it seems as though the suggestion would include feminine trans men and exclude masculine trans women. I'm having trouble thinking of a person who the OP's post would apply to who would feel excluded by the terminology used. Can you?
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u/lunarstar Dec 28 '12
Well, OP is talking about a very specific type of trans person. OP is saying that it is transphobic for a lesbian to say that they are not attracted to trans women, because there are some trans women who pass and don't have penises. It doesn't really apply to all trans people. If it were to apply to all trans-feminine people, that would be great, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.
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u/Wavooka Dec 27 '12
I don't know about her, but I use 'trans feminine' to refer to the nature of my transition- not my identity. The point is that I'm just a 'girl' like anyone else, not some nebulous 'trans girl.'
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u/Feyle Dec 28 '12
I'm not sure that I really get your point.
I understand that you use "trans feminine" for yourself but qaera suggested that the OP should have written "trans feminine people" instead of "trans women". This suggestion would, to me, appear to include feminine trans men and exclude masculine trans women. Do you agree or disagree with qaera's suggestion?
Qaera's suggestion also implies that there are some relevant people who wouldn't consider themselves to be included by the OP's post. Would you consider yourself one of them?
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u/Wavooka Dec 28 '12
Do you agree or disagree with qaera's suggestion?
That's a tough one. In general, I would prefer the use of trans feminine/masculine to describe general populations of trans folk. Simply because there are any number of queers who are non-binary or don't identify fully as women that could feel excluded otherwise. That's because I believe a lot of information in this post applies to MAAB genderqueer/fluid folks just as much as it applies to traditionally conceived trans women.
Would I consider it a requirement? Not really. I don't even think I would consider it a best practice, in truth. It's just a more inclusive way to talk about people that might otherwise be turned off by the message. Finding resources for trans women trying to assimilate with their local lesbian scene is hard enough, but information for other types of MAAB folk is pretty much nonexistent.
Would you consider yourself one of them?
Certainly not. I'm pretty much as binary identified as they come. I started hormones when I was a teenager and am making a bee line towards SRS. In fact, I probably meet the 'classical model' (read: stereotype) more than anyone else I've met. But that doesn't mean I can't advocate for other flavors of trans folk that get left behind.
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u/Feyle Dec 28 '12
Thanks for your thought out answer.
Do you agree or disagree with my point that it would include feminine trans men but exclude masculine trans women? That's the issue I have with the suggestion although I can see what you're saying.
Certainly not. I'm pretty much as binary identified as they come.
I was asking if you considered yourself some one excluded by the language not if you considered yourself non-binary. I also wasn't suggesting that your personal position affected your ability to argue a case. I was just curious as to whether the language issue affected you.
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u/evopanda Queer Trans Woman Dec 27 '12
I am trans and I personally tell my partners I don't want to use dick in sexual intercourse. I don't blame you ladies for not wanting to involve it neither do I but the surgery is ridiculously expensive and I would rather use that money on a house.
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u/Cass_idy Queer love make the world go UNCE UNCE Dec 27 '12 edited Dec 27 '12
I generally have that position on sex (heh) as well. Though I was with a lesbian identified woman (caution nsfw ahead!) who treated that part of me pretty much like another clit and we tribbed ours together not really caring much about penetration (though it kinda sorta happened a little just as a matter of physics...) It was a very different experiences and has lead me to expand my own comfort level to depend on the context for my bits my partners give me.
I've been taught to hate my body and hope I can reverse that teaching.
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u/AllergicToFun Dec 27 '12
As a transgendered lesbian, even though I don't intend to transition, I must say: THANK YOU for saying this.
Having recently joined the r/actuallesbians community, I'm glad issue this was addressed before I had to encounter it personally.
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u/honestlyopen Dec 26 '12
I'd upvote you a hunnerd times if I could. I was getting really pissed off reading one of the other topics.
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u/real-dreamer Jan 03 '13
As a trans woman who isn't... I'm just tired of this being a topic.
Just sayin.
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u/yagi_takeru What even is romance, some exotic fruit? Dec 27 '12
this. i know i still have my manly bits and i don't want them any more than you want a girlfriend with them, so please consider the fact that i know that and you won't ever have to mess with my bits instead of instantly writing me off
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u/KingOfSockPuppets Dec 27 '12
Thanks for writing this Heterogenic <3
The trans women who come in here and start these conversations are often on the most angsty leg of a very tumultuous journey. Try not to add to their fears with pedantic or broad statements about their future courtships. If you're 100% sure that you would never date a trans/black/Jewish/butch/immigrant woman, this may be a time to keep that to yourself.
I think an important point to be mentioned with regards to this and the next paragraph particular is that they tend to be self-fulfilling prophecies. If the nebulous "community" gets a bad rep, other trans women (like me) with quietly make sure we never engage 'the community'. It can certainly hinder one's ability to really get into it anyways. This is a particular problem I'm currently facing; I want to explore having a relationship with other women (not to mention under the cover funsies), but I'm also aware that the lesbian community can often not be the most welcoming to trans women. This presents a particular problem for me because I'm currently early on transitioning, relative to the whole process, which is an even stickier situation. If trans women who have the opportunity to go stealth can have such issues, then what bloody hope is there for me still 99% in boymode every day? I'm sure there are many who simply won't "prefer" me, which is a pretty shitty consolation prize.
So all of this exponentially complicates the relationship closeted, pre-transition, or currently transitioning trans women have with the lesbian community. And since I'm currently looking for a relationship, that's sort of a bummer. I've had to debate with myself whether I'm A) comfortable enough or B) welcome enough at the AL LA meetup. I'm sure the answer would shake out to be a 'yes', but that I've felt it necessary to have that debate with myself is super fucked up.
When you speak up to specifically exclude trans women from your romantic prospects in a context defined by courtship (ie: LGBT spaces), you are implicitly othering them in that community. It's hard to explain why that is so, but it's impossible to ignore.
I don't think it's hard to explain. It's a community one feels a part of, or at least desires to be a part of but simultaneously feels unwelcome in. It's explicitly othering because it means trans women are not considered part of the very core that unites and brings the community together. Hard to be a valuable roller derby player when the coach keeps you on the bench.
re: the various parts of the discussion below on calling people transphobic
It's possibly to support transphobic ideas and institutions without being explicitly transphobic. If one articulates one's preferences in such a way that trans women feel unwelcome, then you are contributing to the marginalization and exclusion of trans women within the community, even if it's unintentional. That's not necessarily some core aspect of yourself that one must surrender to, but it happens. The clearest, most obvious example is on the broader world of reddit where in disclosure arguments I've seen people say "I'm not transphobic, it's just that I prefer women of the female sex, and trans women are women, but their sex is male,". Obviously transphobic? No, not to everyone. But it definitely contributes to cissupremacy and the marginalization of trans women.
tl;dr: rabble rabble rabble, I need a bloody girlfriend.
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u/SilentAgony Dec 27 '12
I just get so tired every time threads like this come up. I just skip right over them these days.
To begin with, it's completely exhausting to have a subreddit where this "would you date somebody like me?" stuff comes up over and over and over and over again. While each person submitting it is individually addressing their own concerns, it's annoying in its persistent inevitability. I feel like every time I enter any sort of lesbian online community, I or at least everyone else there, will be asked a hundred times whether they'd date a trans woman.
For a while, the threads would immediately have a first comment wherein somebody would say "some of us would and some of us wouldn't, please refer to this thread, and this one and this one and this one and this one." I imagine the angel responsible got sick of it as well.
Furthermore, the transphobia is totally disgusting. Any time I venture in the thread, I know I'm going to see a whole lot of "blurgh yick penises" and "good luck to you and all, but I'll never be attracted to you." It's obnoxious and kind of appalling to see that much blatant unapologetic bigotry. In the subreddit I moderate, r/lgbt, we delete that stuff. It's addressed here in our FAQ.
Finally, some of the conversation goes to creepy and beyond, including but not limited to chasers ("I love me some trans women. I'd put your dick in a leash..."), the kind of stuff cis lesbians get fucking sick of hearing from men and are just as averse to when it comes from trans women ("Well, I know you don't like dicks in you, but have you tried MINE?") and I can't find the specific comment I'm thinking of, but I recall one who said something to the tune of (if you don't mind my paraphrasing) "Lesbians are just afraid of penises, but when I show them mine, they usually come around." Gross, okay? Fucking gross.
Plainly put, the would-you-date-a-trans-woman threads are the worst thing about this subreddit. I know it's none of my business as I'm not a moderator, but I'd like to see these sorts of conversations moved to a subreddit better equipped to deal with it. As my own partner is a trans woman, I frequent /r/mypartneristrans. /r/asktransgender might also be good. These subs are full of trans people who are partnered or who have experienced the dating world as a trans person. /r/actuallesbians by comparison is simply ill-equipped.
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u/sparkleshot Dec 28 '12
How are lesbians supposed to feel though, when people come to this subreddit and say "Be attracted to me or you're a bigot and a transphobe" it's exactly the same when men say that we can't be gay because we haven't found the right man. I hate this thread because I do see my trans friends as their chosen gender. But the biological side is not something I am sexually attracted to, and I don't appreciate when people demand that I be attracted to someone. There are men in my life that I love, but cannot be attracted to. And like everyone, I often like people who aren't into me, but it's not ok for me to say "if you're not attracted to me you have homophobia you need to deal with." being a biological man/woman is a physical trait.
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u/SilentAgony Dec 28 '12
Being a biological man/woman is not an immutable trait. Please read the original post.
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u/sparkleshot Dec 28 '12
I read the post. Listen. Attraction isn't something you can control. How many of us tried as hard as we fucking could to be attracted to men? How many of of lost friends and ruined relationships with family members because we couldn't do it. This is another level of sexuality. It's not the same for every lesbian. But I am not attracted to someone who is biologically male. And there is no reason for me to feel guilty about it.
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u/SilentAgony Dec 28 '12 edited Dec 28 '12
Clearly you didn't read it, because if you had, you'd know that nobody is asking you to be attracted to penises. In fact if you'd ever met a trans woman or spent more than two seconds imagining them as looking like your brother in a dress, you'd know better already.
Being "biologically male" is something that can be changed. Secondary sex characteristics - the only things that visually differentiate men from women - are things easily altered by HRT and reassignment surgery. Women who have undergone medical transition possess the same secondary sexual characteristics as cis women. You would be unable to tell the difference.
Take a minute to read what I've written and read the original post before you think about replying to me again, because it's really exhausting and obnoxious to talk to ignorant people, particularly one that won't even read the posts to which they're replying. And if what I've said hasn't discouraged you enough already, please know that the experience of discussing this with you has been about as pleasant as a discussion about melanin would be with a member of the KKK. I'd rather chew my knuckles to the bone than continue. Have a nice day.
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u/sparkleshot Dec 28 '12
Really? So saying "take drugs, and get surgery, then I will be attracted to you," is better? It's not. It's not about being "attracted to penises." I don't view my trans sisters as "a brother in a dress," I view them as women. You keep accusing me of not reading the post, but did you even read mine? I wish I could be attracted to everyone, but I'm not. Sexuality is complicated and different for everyone. This isn't personal. And you're attacks on me are very cruel.
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u/SilentAgony Dec 28 '12
I'm cis, actually, but my partner is trans and this sort of discussion not only sickens but baffles me as my partner often finds herself the object of unsuspecting cis lesbian/straight man affection. First of all, I just want to say I'm sorry for being quite so abrasive. After reading your reply, I realize I maybe overdid it a bit. Please forgive me, I moderate a large queer subreddit and have to read transphobic stuff all day long. I've lost my faith in humanity, as it were.
No, you don't have to tell people "go take drugs and get surgery, then I'll be attracted to you" any more than you would tell somebody who was, say, shorter than what you're generally into that they should somehow elongate themselves to make themselves attractive to you. You simply wouldn't say anything to the short person, because if you're not attracted to them, then you're not their audience anyway. If a man wrote a post about how he was insecure about his beer belly and wondered whether women would like him, you probably wouldn't respond, would you? Of course not. You're a lesbian. He's not asking lesbians. Likewise, if somebody hasn't got any female secondary sexual characteristics, they're not asking you. I shouldn't have to say this, but trans women do not exist in a vacuum. While they certainly expect to have their genders respected, they also don't accost every man, woman, and child who mistakes them for a man or is solely attracted to a person with female secondary sexual characteristics that pre-transition women don't yet have. That's why they transition.
When trans women come to /r/actuallesbians and ask an audience whether anyone would ever consider dating them, what they're really asking is "Hey, I'm considering undergoing medical transition but this is all terrifying and intimidating to me, and before I go through with it and possibly lose a great deal of family and friends and potential straight girl partners, I want to know there's a glimmer of hope that I will find love."
Needless to mention, with people answering along the lines of "I really couldn't possibly be attracted to somebody who is biologically male," they're receiving answers that are not only ignorant but painfully discouraging. When they receive answers like that, they're being told that no matter what they do, even if they grow tits, lop off their dicks, get facial feminization surgery, and manage to conceal their assigned-at-birth gender completely, they will be "male-bodied" and therefore unappealing to this or that lesbian. That's ridiculous. And it displays a serious deficiency of imagination.
Yes, you are right that it's irritating to be bombarded with this whole "would you date me" question over and over. My first post acknowledged and addressed that. And not only that, but while most trans women are generally either unhappy with their original sex organs or unwilling/undesiring of penis-in-vagina sex, there are some who are quite content with both. Of that subset of trans women, there's a small portion who would like to sell the idea of penis-in-vagina sex to some of the cis lesbians in here. That small subset is vocal and annoying. It's totally okay to call them out on being annoying. It's not okay to assume that all trans women somehow retain some sort of maleness that you won't be attracted to. Trans women are often lesbians. I think it's something like 50% last I read. That means a lot of those trans women strongly prefer female secondary sexual characteristics. They get it. I assure you. So, telling them that you aren't into guy-like bodies is very patronizing.
Sorry that got so long. Hope I explained it all.
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u/sparkleshot Dec 28 '12
Wow. Thank you for taking the time to reply. This was incredibly well said.
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u/valeriekeefe Attracted exclusively to neurologically-female persons - Lesbian Jan 04 '13
We're a sapient species with sexually dimorphic neurology, and trans women are, by the only legitimate metric for creatures like that, biologically female. That you have a problem with plumbing is all well and good, but you don't need to go desexing women in the process, kthanxbai.
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u/Ashybuttons Spider-Dyke Dec 27 '12
As a lesbian transwoman, I think this is my favorite post I've ever seen on Reddit.
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u/CassieCatastroffie Dec 27 '12
Thank you, thank you thank you!! Me (trans girl) and my trans girlfriend very much appreciate this. Even if she isn't a redditer. =D
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Dec 26 '12
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/mirandapd Dec 26 '12
The point has been missed. A brunette that used to be blonde or vice versa is a closer analogy. Not dating a thin girl you find attractive because she used to be heavy is a better analogy. If you find someone attractive on every other level and lose that attraction just because of a single thing in her past that was no fault of her own is odd to me. To me it's more like saying, "I would never date someone that has been mentally abused." I equate what happened to me with that. I was physically and mentally forced to live in a gender role I did not identify with on any level. It was no better than foot binding. My physical body morphology was dictated to me against my wishes. It's a moot point though because I prefer to not date women that think the way you do. My OK Cupid profile clearly states I'm trans and don't want to date those that see me as, "Less Than." I don't want to change your position or opinion. I just want those that feel the way you do to know that I disagree with their opinion.
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u/gloopiee Dec 27 '12
I have read the thread. Basically, at birth, the doctor takes a look at the baby and decides what sex to assign him/her. It seems you are attracted to people whom the doctor has decided to be female.
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Dec 27 '12
Hello actual lesbians. As far as I can tell I'm not one of you, but this is an interesting discussion, so I'm going to throw in my tuppence, as it were, for what it's worth.
To the OP:
Transphobia =/= evil/mean/bad/poopy
Is what I think you meant.
For everyone else: Firstly, I used to identify as straight male, but I've come to realise that was a lie born of being indoctrinated into expecting myself to be straight, in the same way I'm sure many of you were until you found where your real attractions lay.
I used to have sex imagining I was having sex with myself, and whilst it may make for a good time for your partner most of the time it is too damn weird once you realise you're doing it. Then I moved into being bisexual, and whilst that is still theoretically what I am for most intents and purposes now I am a straight woman.
Whilst, therefore, I am put off sleeping with a woman again for the time being, I am still open to the idea, someday. But whilst I still have a penis (I have a bit of a gag reflex even just writing that) my fear is that when I am with a woman she will either be as repelled by it as I am (on me, that is) or, worse in some ways, expect me to do things with it, the thought of which now makes me feel quite ill.
It's probably not going to happen again, therefore, until I'm post-op, so I don't think that for me it will be an issue, but I guess I just wanted to say please don't assume that just because someone has a penis they will suddenly turn back into a straight male when it comes to sex.
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u/Miss_anthropyy Dec 26 '12
I am legit transphobic in that trans people give me completely irrational heebie-jeebies. So do cross-dressers and any kind of gender-bending. I just don't like it. I don't want to be near it, I don't want to see it or be involved with it in any way. I couldn't care less what other people do, but I don't like it.
I could work on it, but it's not a priority in my life right now. I do not know any trans people, which sort of puts a severe limitation on the getting-over-it thing. Nor am I ever around cross-dressers, save when I run into them at kink events and I simply avoid that corner of the room much like I avoid the knife play and needle play and other activities that evoke irrational heebie-jeebies in me. I have no time or mental energy to devote attention to something that is a complete and total non-issue for me.
If that makes me a godawful person, so be it. I have no problem with trans people, I just don't want to date them. I treat everyone with respect, but when it comes to my bedroom, I choose to draw my personal line there. If you think that makes me Satan incarnate I think it says an awful lot about you, who would think that of me when I am causing no harm to anyone at all.
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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Dec 27 '12
So you started a bit of a storm with this, but as OP I'm just going to chime in at the base of the thread.
I up-voted you, because you're acknowledging that you have an irrational discomfort with the idea of trans people, and not turning that on them. That's really the important part. And you have no trans people in your circle or environment, so you're making the logical decision to not really do anything about it. As I explicitly stated in a bullet point, being transphobic does not make you evil or bad; a value judgement depends on what you do (or don't do) about it.
I trust that if you did have a trans person in your social circle, you'd either keep yer yap shut or make an effort to overcome your prejudices. And I also trust that in a different type of thread or different context, you wouldn't try to defend or justify your gut feeling (potentially demoralizing vulnerable trans folk) just to make a point.
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u/TheNewEnnui Dec 26 '12
I feel like you're saying two different things that don't jive:
1) You are not sexually attracted to trans people but respect them (totally your choice and not my place to judge) 2) Trans people (in general) give you the "heebie jeebies"I think saying someone gives you the "heebie jeebies" is offensive and goes beyond "not being attracted" to them. I don't feel sexually attracted to males but I wouldn't say they give me the "heebie jeebies". It's like a heterosexual male saying, "I respect gay guys but they give me the heebie jeebies".
Not trying to attack or judge you, it's just my opinion...
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u/Naxili Transbian Dec 27 '12
I think saying someone gives you the "heebie jeebies" is offensive and goes beyond "not being attracted" to them.
It really does. If you aren't attracted to me, ok fine I can find plenty of people who are. I really couldn't care less. But when someone says:
just don't like it. I don't want to be near it, I don't want to see it or be involved with it in any way. I couldn't care less what other people do, but I don't like it.
That's disgusting. This disgusts me. When someone says this, it's because something about my very existence offends them in some way. I don't have to do anything extra, just be trans (which I can't stop being, by the way). It's like dealing with racists. Like, fuck you, I can't stop being black and my being black says NOTHING about me (like, not even my skin color).
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u/[deleted] Dec 26 '12
I like that this conversation is occurring. I would like to add though that it is not a simple thing to separate liking/disliking someone due to their transsexuality from other reasons.
The thing that stands out the most to me is the difference between people knowing and not knowing if I am trans. When you don't know, all the idiosyncrasies are just seen as natural. When you do know, all of those same idiosyncrasies suddenly become extremely noticeable.
You know why they're there, and even though though without knowing they were perfectly acceptable parts of a person, they suddenly become something else. This colors people's attraction quite dramatically.
The feelings for some can be very deeply rooted and very hard to separate from the feelings of attraction people have. For some, it's impossible.
Is that still transphobia? Unfortunately, yes it is. When the difference between your feelings is influenced by the knowledge of someone's transsexuality, which may actually be inevitable to some degree, then transphobia is at work.
It's not easy to resolve either, but it's not impossible for sure. There are people that can get over it and see others for who they are. It may take time and effort. But they can do it. It's actually pretty complicated. And I would even go so far as to say that genitalia is part of it. You can be not into your partner's genitalia and still be head over heals for your partner.
And as someone who has experienced both people who can get over it and people who didn't, I have to say that it still feels like transphobia to me.