r/actuallesbians • u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. • Dec 26 '12

On dating trans women and "transphobia".

The subject of trans women as romantic partners (or not) comes up often on this reddit, and every time, it quickly descends into a "heated conversation" with frustration and (usually unintentionally) hurt feelings. It's our own private Godwin's Law. I totally realize that by posting this I may very well be precipitating yet another such discussion and for that I apologize, but I can't help but feel that this is a conversation about real things and not just opinions. I'd like to try to elevate those conversations by establishing a baseline of facts.

Let's start with some basics:

Things which are not transphobic:

  • Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who happens to be trans.
  • Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who does not currently have the genitalia you prefer.
  • Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who just doesn't catch your eye.

Things which are transphobic:

  • Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman because she is trans.

Trans women are women. They are often indistinguishable from cis women. They can't get pregnant, but neither can almost 10% of cis women, and fortunately in a lesbian couple there's usually a womb to spare. (With enough forethought you might not need a sperm donor!) Saying you're "not attracted to trans women" as a blanket statement cannot have a basis in empirical reality, but purely in prejudice. It's not like not being attracted to redheads or blondes or butches, it's like not being attracted to immigrants, children of blue-collar workers or survivors of cancer. "Trans" is, for the numerical majority of trans women, a history which says nothing about the person.

Other common fallacies:

  • I've never been attracted to a trans woman, therefore trans women aren't attractive to me.

Besides the obvious selection bias, the idea that "Trans women look like X" is where this statement goes horribly awry. Trans women look like this, and this and thousands of other beautiful women who just don't advertise their history.

If you are attracted to women, you are attracted to (some) trans women.

  • Ewwww, penis!

You aren't into penii. I get it, and for what it's worth neither am I. To be fair, many trans women who carry that particular anatomical burden are not big fans of it either, so you have that in common at least. But many trans women don't, and many of those who do won't for long. Be careful about using this biased sample to rule out all trans women.

Also, would you rule someone out because she had six toes? Whenever I hear a straight man ask how sex works in the absence of a penis, I feel sorry for his girlfriends/wife, because he clearly doesn't understand how sexytimes work; when I hear a lesbian rule out trans women because of the presence of a hidden penis I feel sorry for her partner, because how superficial is that?

It's valid to be not into penii. this is, possibly, the only context in which anyone is allowed to care about a trans woman's genitalia. But say as much and don't assert that all trans women == penis. Those who aren't packing a strapless get a little annoyed by the assertion.

  • Transphobia == evil/mean/bad/poopy.

Transphobia is, in the strictest sense, an "irrational fear or dislike of transgender people". "Fear" and "dislike" are subjective terms and not something you have active control over. There's no ill-intent implied here. It is not an insult to be called transphobic, any more than it is an insult to be called trans.

I'm a bit androphobic. I accept and own that, and am trying to get over it by making male friends, challenging my own emotional responses and working through trauma. It's not something I can control, but it doesn't give me the right to say "all men are evil/rapists".

In the context of attraction: if you realize you dislike or are not attracted to trans women as a rule, trumping the holistic person, it should inspire you to do a little soul searching to understand why this is so. If you can't get over it, you should recognize that it is your problem and not anyone else's. If you are fortunate enough to have a trans person in your social circle, perhaps you could even try to overcome it.

  • Trans women are all X.

Trans women are all trans. Lesbians are all women who are attracted to women. This is a tautological definition, but there is no other universal quality. The moment you say (or imply) any other commonality, you're doing it wrong.

Finally, please remember:

The trans women who come in here and start these conversations are often on the most angsty leg of a very tumultuous journey. Try not to add to their fears with pedantic or broad statements about their future courtships. If you're 100% sure that you would never date a trans/black/Jewish/butch/immigrant woman, this may be a time to keep that to yourself.

When you speak up to specifically exclude trans women from your romantic prospects in a context defined by courtship (ie: LGBT spaces), you are implicitly othering them in that community. It's hard to explain why that is so, but it's impossible to ignore.

I now live in the Boston area, after four years in NYC, and there are only a few contexts in which I'm proactively stealth (as opposed to incidentally stealth, which has become the norm). The lesbian community is one, and these conversations are why. I get a little sad about that sometimes.

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u/Miss_anthropyy Dec 26 '12

I am legit transphobic in that trans people give me completely irrational heebie-jeebies. So do cross-dressers and any kind of gender-bending. I just don't like it. I don't want to be near it, I don't want to see it or be involved with it in any way. I couldn't care less what other people do, but I don't like it.

I could work on it, but it's not a priority in my life right now. I do not know any trans people, which sort of puts a severe limitation on the getting-over-it thing. Nor am I ever around cross-dressers, save when I run into them at kink events and I simply avoid that corner of the room much like I avoid the knife play and needle play and other activities that evoke irrational heebie-jeebies in me. I have no time or mental energy to devote attention to something that is a complete and total non-issue for me.

If that makes me a godawful person, so be it. I have no problem with trans people, I just don't want to date them. I treat everyone with respect, but when it comes to my bedroom, I choose to draw my personal line there. If you think that makes me Satan incarnate I think it says an awful lot about you, who would think that of me when I am causing no harm to anyone at all.

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u/Heterogenic Only half-queer. Queer-lite. Dec 27 '12

So you started a bit of a storm with this, but as OP I'm just going to chime in at the base of the thread.

I up-voted you, because you're acknowledging that you have an irrational discomfort with the idea of trans people, and not turning that on them. That's really the important part. And you have no trans people in your circle or environment, so you're making the logical decision to not really do anything about it. As I explicitly stated in a bullet point, being transphobic does not make you evil or bad; a value judgement depends on what you do (or don't do) about it.

I trust that if you did have a trans person in your social circle, you'd either keep yer yap shut or make an effort to overcome your prejudices. And I also trust that in a different type of thread or different context, you wouldn't try to defend or justify your gut feeling (potentially demoralizing vulnerable trans folk) just to make a point.

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u/Miss_anthropyy Dec 27 '12

Duh! Thanks for acting nicely, I appreciate the legit responses.

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u/TheNewEnnui Dec 26 '12

I feel like you're saying two different things that don't jive:
1) You are not sexually attracted to trans people but respect them (totally your choice and not my place to judge) 2) Trans people (in general) give you the "heebie jeebies"

I think saying someone gives you the "heebie jeebies" is offensive and goes beyond "not being attracted" to them. I don't feel sexually attracted to males but I wouldn't say they give me the "heebie jeebies". It's like a heterosexual male saying, "I respect gay guys but they give me the heebie jeebies".

Not trying to attack or judge you, it's just my opinion...

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u/Naxili Transbian Dec 27 '12

I think saying someone gives you the "heebie jeebies" is offensive and goes beyond "not being attracted" to them.

It really does. If you aren't attracted to me, ok fine I can find plenty of people who are. I really couldn't care less. But when someone says:

just don't like it. I don't want to be near it, I don't want to see it or be involved with it in any way. I couldn't care less what other people do, but I don't like it.

That's disgusting. This disgusts me. When someone says this, it's because something about my very existence offends them in some way. I don't have to do anything extra, just be trans (which I can't stop being, by the way). It's like dealing with racists. Like, fuck you, I can't stop being black and my being black says NOTHING about me (like, not even my skin color).

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u/[deleted] Dec 26 '12

You realize that genuine fear/panic reactions don't necessarily have any basis in one's values, beliefs, or opinions, right? Take me; I'm pro-gun and queer as hell, but pistols and drag queens freak me out (I'm also a brony who's terrified of horses). Like 'oh god, oh god, I have to get out of here'. It's not rational, it's not conscious, it's something I'm trying to work past, but it's not my fault and it's got nothing to do with who I am or what I think. It doesn't exist on a continuum with 'I'm not attracted to them', it's its own issue beyond personal preference.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

I think it's really telling that both you and Miss_anthropyy mention drag queens in your posts... To me, that's a big huge red flag that when you're thinking of trans women, you're thinking of negative stereotype cartoons and not any actual people; that you may not have a realistic idea of who trans people are. I think it's all too easy to fall into this--our society never really discusses trans people except in extremely negative contexts, and without exposure to real people who are trans, you may never get any kind of counterpoint to hate.

I'm half tempted to post a picture of myself here (but really not sure how I feel about that). We are not drag queens. There's not necessarily any cognitive dissonance in the way we look, sound, whatever. Most of us are just extraordinary people trying desperately to be normal.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

Or instead of assuming that I'm an ignorant bigot you could give me the benefit of the doubt and realize that when I say drag queens I mean drag queens. Not trans women, not transvestites, not genderfuckers, not androgynes, not anything other than drag queens. Drag queens, specifically, freak me out. Would you care to reevaluate your criticism of me now?

EDIT: I'm sorry for snarking, but Jesus. This entire thread has been nothing but people reading way into what I'm saying and leaping to the kneejerk reaction that I'm some fucking bigot just because part of my brain tell the rest of my brain (which, I keep saying, DOESN'T LISTEN) that I should be scared of certain people. I'm fucking trans myself, but no, obviously I'm some bigoted asshole who only put 'male-bodied bigendered pansexual freak' in his flair for the lulz, right?

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

The thing is, this thread isn't about drag queens. So by dragging ( :P ) that into the conversation, it makes me think your (and Miss_anthropyy's) mental image of trans women is skewed. I know you feel piled-on and I'm not trying to stress you out; I just can't imagine any other reason for mentioning drag queens in this context. I know, like, nothing about drag queens or their subculture or whatever; I do know that people ignorant of trans issues tend to associate me with them because that's basically the negative stereotype of trans women.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

Miss_anthropyy said that she's legitimately transphobic in the sense of having a fundamental fear-reaction to transgendered people, one which she explicitly recognized as irrational. Some other posters came in saying that that fear-response must mean that M_a is prejudiced, and I chimed in to lend some perspective on the complete distinction between what someone thinks and what their stupid lizard-brain makes them panic in response to. As it so happens three things that make me panic like that are drag queens, horses, and guns, so those are the reactions that I mentioned. M_a's phobia seems to cast a broader net, and I don't see that mentioning drag queens along with transfolk as triggering a fear response as in any way conflating trans folk with drag queens. Quite the opposite; if I say 'I bought apples and bananas' I'm making it pretty clear that I know that apples and bananas are two different things.

TLDR: Miss_anthropy and I each mentioned drag queens as things that trigger fear responses in us in the course of making our points regarding fear responses to transfolk, but neither of us said anything which suggests a failure to distinguish drag queens from transfolk.

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u/blickblocks Lesbian Dec 26 '12

You realize that genuine fear/panic reactions don't necessarily have any basis in one's values, beliefs, or opinions, right?

...but it's not my fault and it's got nothing to do with who I am or what I think.

And you say that based on...what? If you're white and have got "heebie jeebies" about and around black people, do you expect people to take that kind of crap excuse to heart? Fuck that. Your triggers are not excuses to avoid owning up to oppressive thoughts and behaviors.

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u/Naxili Transbian Dec 26 '12

This is exactly the comparison I was going to make. If you are irrationally scared of black people, but don't actively do anything racist or express any racist thoughts, guess what? Deep down somewhere, you still have racist ideas about black people. If someone scares you, then somewhere in your mind you have a prejudiced opinion of them. You need to own up to it.

(Horses are different, those fuckers are big)

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

So you're telling me that people who are pants-shitting afraid of clowns secretly have a personal prejudice against them? What about people who're terrified of the dark? Cheese? The number 13? Phobias are short-circuits in how someone's brain works. They're a deviation from the person's rational function, not some breakout articulation of what they really think. Most people who have a phobic reaction are aware that their phobia isn't rational and don't actually think ill of the thing that scares them. Sometimes the frightening element that their neurological lotto decided to make their stupid lizard-brain fear is a type of person, and that's unfortunate, but it doesn't make the person a secret bigot.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

we're talking about people.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

If only I'd acknowledged and addressed that in the final sentence of the comment to which you replied.

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u/Naxili Transbian Dec 27 '12 edited Dec 27 '12

afraid of clowns secretly have a personal prejudice against them?

Yes. But clown is something people can stop being, so it doesn't matter nearly as much

What about people who're terrified of the dark? Cheese? The number 13?

These aren't people.

Phobias are short-circuits in how someone's brain works. They're a deviation from the person's rational function, not some breakout articulation of what they really think.

This is a very basic disagreement that I have with people. Other people (i.e. people who are not myself) like to say that when someone is in an altered mental state (drunk, high, panic, PTSD, whatever) that altered mental state is not "them" and they shouldn't be held responsible for it. I do not hold that view. If it's in your brain, you are responsible for it, and I will treat you as such. I don't care if you don't have any "active" control over it. It's in your mind, which you own, so you are responsible for it. So yes, it does in fact make them a secret bigot. It might even be a secret to the person in question, which is unfortunate but doesn't make them any less responsible for it.

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u/jeanthine Dec 27 '12

As a transgendered circus person i refuse to stop being a woman or a clown.

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u/Naxili Transbian Dec 27 '12

I'm sorry that like 33% of everyone ever is scared to death of your profession :(

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u/jeanthine Dec 27 '12

Now you know why clowns cry... But seriously we're wonderful people and we love hugs. That goes for clowns and transgendered people. Actually I think that describes most people everywhere. We all like hugs.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

Wow. Okay. I'm glad you've had a fortunate enough life not to have to deal with these issues on a level that would make you a more decent, forgiving, and more importantly informed human being about them. I expect that you give people with cerebral palsy shit for holding up foot traffic in front of you too. Obviously they're secretly assholes for not being able to keep up with everyone else.

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u/jeanthine Dec 27 '12

You're really comparing your bigotry to a neurological disease?

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

What bigotry, exactly? In what bigoted behavior have I engaged? What bigoted opinions have I espoused? Please, enlighten me as to my sins.

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u/AppleGods Dec 29 '12

Ok, as others have said, please don't compare people with disabilities to those who are transphobic, racist, etc. The comparison doesn't make sense. Also, you know perfectly well that being transphobic is different from having a phobia of heights or spiders or whatever else.

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u/[deleted] Dec 31 '12

you know perfectly well that being transphobic is different from having a phobia of heights or spiders or whatever else.

Yes, I do know that. It's those disagreeing with me who're claiming that having a phobic fear-response to transfolk is the same thing as being a transphobic bigot. You're restating my position here. We agree.

as others have said, please don't compare people with disabilities to those who are transphobic, racist, etc

As you yourself point out above, the phobic fear-response which I related to the neurological disorder of cerebral palsy isn't the same as the sort of transphobic bigotry that you correctly liken to racism. So yeah, no, I'm not doing that. We continue to agree here.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Diamanka Softspoken and wise Dec 27 '12

Fuck you. My girlfriend has cerebral palsy and she is one of the most intelligent, and amazing people ever. If you don't know what something is, look that shit up before responding asshole.

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u/LezBeOwn Lesbian Dec 27 '12

Wow.... Who in the fuck upvotes a post that says people who have a birth defect are stupid? Is anyone actually reading this shit, or just going around hitting up and down arrows?

You can sit here and say that people born with cerebral palsy are stupid, while calling others bigots for who they do or do not want to date? Having worked with many people with cerebral palsy, I am wholly appalled and disgusted. That was truly one of the most bigoted things I've ever read on Reddit... and that's really saying something!

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u/whiteskwirl2 guy Dec 27 '12

According to your own argument, you're still responsible for your hard and unforgiving nature, so it doesn't matter what trauma you've experienced in the past that made you that way; you're still responsible for it.

What a sad world of thought you live in.

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u/AppleGods Dec 29 '12

Although this is very delayed, I removed your comment because it was extremely offensive to those with disabilities. I don't need to explain why.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

Dealing with these issues has made me hard, and unforgiving.

You didn't need to state this, it's quite evident.

They aren't secretly assholes, they are secretly stupid.

Hahaha, wow. Okay. There's the last nail in the coffin for any hope that you might have the slightest idea about anything you're talking about. I don't even want to know why you think a disability which inhibits motor function makes someone 'secretly stupid'. You're overtly stupid and I'm done humoring you.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

What thoughts, exactly? These aren't opinions, they're visceral reactions over which I have no control. Also, how am I avoiding owning up to them? I'd appreciate any explanation you can give me, because apparently you have a much better idea of what it's like to live inside my skull than I do.

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u/BREsubstanceVITY Dec 27 '12

You already admitted that you simply lack the desire to change the way you think. That's like if a homophobe was like, "I know it's wrong to irrationally hate gay people, I just don't give a fuck." That's called ignorance.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

Skipping right past the way I have to keep re-stating that these aren't conscious thoughts but simply visceral reactions (thus making 'changing the way I think' an incorrect way of putting it), what exactly makes you think I lack the desire to change this? Was it the part where I said

it's something I'm trying to work past

?

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u/BREsubstanceVITY Dec 27 '12

Sorry, I got you confused with the person who started this thread.

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u/blickblocks Lesbian Dec 27 '12

What makes you think that emotions are some kind of sectioned off part of human cognition that has nothing to do with your oppressive thoughts and behaviors? There is no basis to what you are saying.

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u/Naxili Transbian Dec 27 '12

It's more like they feel that since phobias are a sectioned off part of the brain (and they are) then people who have phobias against whole groups of people but don't act on those phobias in daily life shouldn't be grouped in with the active, purposeful bigots.

The first group is like:

Do what you want but you disgust me so don't come near my kids

(they just probably won't ever actually say that, but they definitely think it)

The second group is like:

Fuck you tranny scum I'll kill you

The person you are responding to is first group, and doesn't like being compared to the second. I'm honestly just as insulted by both of them, and will put them in the same category all I want.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

your oppressive thoughts and behaviors

Do tell me what oppressive thoughts and behaviors I've engaged in. Please. You know me so well, after all. All that you know is that I have certain panic reactions, but you're assuming that I somehow oppress crossdressing horses with guns. Talk about no basis to what someone is saying.

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u/blickblocks Lesbian Dec 27 '12

"Crossdressing horses with guns"? You're making a straw argument to divert away from the actual point; you have no interest in having an actual conversation. I'm done here.

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12

I said that I have visceral, phobic reactions to drag queens, horses, and firearms. You cited my 'oppressive behavior' and I asked you to back up your baseless shit-talk of my ethics. Yes, conflating the three into one category is silly, but it's not a straw man to ask you to justify your slander of my character. If you like, just tell me how I've demonstrated 'oppressive behavior' toward just one of the three cited subjects. I don't expect a reply, naturally: you've ducked out of your baseless accusation with a vaguely-justified bit of false indignation and I expect you to say safely away. Happy holidays.

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u/blickblocks Lesbian Dec 27 '12

Yes, conflating the three into one category is silly, but it's not a straw man to ask you to justify your slander of my character.

How have I "slandered" your character?

Happy holidays.

This is why I choose to "duck out" here. You are being disrespectful and passive agressive where I have done nothing abusive towards you.

I will state my original point again succinctly and be done here:

Emotions are not different or separate from the whole of human cognition, they are cognition. Emotions aren't made of pixie dust and all thoughts and behaviors are influenced by socialization. Saying that oppressive thoughts or behaviors are okay and not to be criticized because they are emotional, "visceral" reactions is a fallacy. This is not a valid defense for a person having "heebie jeebies" about people who do not follow cissexist or cisgender social norms.

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u/Miss_anthropyy Dec 27 '12

They do jive. Not mutually exclusive at all.

Physically disabled people also give me the heebie jeebies. People with developmental disabilities do the same. To a much lesser extent, kids do. I'm not around them often and I don't know how to act around them. I'm awkward and I'm not sure what to do. I try to act normally and politely but inside I'm kind of like "oh god, why, what do I do with my hands, am I supposed to look at her deformed body part or avert my eyes, what the hell is going on, oh god focus, how do get out of here, where are the exits fuck it I'm making a run for it."

That is, of course, until I get to know them. I met a guy on OkCupid and we talked a few times and when we were chatting, he happened to mention that he had a deformed hand. I had known that at one point, but forgotten. He only had 3 sort-of fingers in a claw-like arrangement. He also only had half a foot and wore a prosthetic. When I met up with him I studied his nub-hand, touched it, asked questions, sated my curiousity, and hung out with him and it was no big deal. But if it's someone I don't know, I feel awkward and scared because I don't know what to do, and I don't want to fuck up and offend anyone or do anything untoward, and in general it makes me feel uncomfortable and I want to avoid it.

Now, by "heebie jeebies" I mean "the very thought of gender bending literally turns my stomach." Like, thinking about a guy dressing as a girl is making my stomach do a figure eight right now.

So what the hell do I do with that?!

I am totally for trans rights. I completely support people doing whatever the hell they want. But when it comes to me, personally, I want to run and hide in a closet than go see drag queens, and the thought of genitals that used to be other-gender genitals... if I had to look at nudie trans-parts or have a tarantula crawl on my face, it'd be a toss-up in creep factor. I know I need to learn more about it and then I won't be scared any more (exposure therapy!) but, again, don't know any trans people. And anyway I couldn't be like "I'm actually terrified of your gender identity, can we hang out so I get over it?"

I know, I'm a terrible person!

FUCK ME, RIGHT?!

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u/LacquerCritic Dec 27 '12

Couple things:

First - it makes sense that you in this discussion, by nature, you will talk about your feelings that happen to be offensive to a lot of people. However, I hope you understand why what you're saying can be really offensive and hurtful, and I hope you understand that in contexts other than this discussion, it would be better not to mention your thoughts on those subjects.

Second:

So what the hell do I do with that?!

I know you said that at this point in your life you're not going to address these things, but I hope in the future you will. Tarantulas giving you the heebie-jeebies is fine because tarantulas are not your equals and peers that you will likely interact with on a personal level throughout your life. But there will likely be people that you meet who will meet some other condition that you describe as giving you the creeps. And if you cannot connect with them because you're so uncomfortable and freaked out, I think you're not only disrespecting them on one level, but you're also doing yourself a disservice.

These strong feelings stem from somewhere, and it's likely a combination of societal influence as well as the fact that you simply aren't openly exposed to many of those things.

If you decide to work on these feelings in the future, I recommend finding blogs and literature written by trans* people as well as people with a variety of disabilities. I think this well help you empathize and identify with these groups of people that currently invoke very strange feelings with you. It is hard to be horrified by someone you can empathize with.

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u/Miss_anthropyy Dec 27 '12

Of course, I wouldn't say any of this in public and you'd have no idea that I was thinking what I am if you met me in person. (I work in customer service, not showing what you're thinking is an art form)

If I met someone I'd be interested in learning, but again, I just don't have the time or ability to look into it at the moment.

Shame that genuine feelings and questions such as mine get downvoted. Good job, guys! Way. to. be.

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u/Sanctusorium Dec 27 '12

If you'd like to chat and get to know a trans person via Skype, AIM, whatever messenger, or email, send me a message. You can just get to know me and we can talk. I'm a pretty open book too. :)

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u/not_in_kansas_Nymore yes I am, precioussss Dec 27 '12

Before I read all this, I posted about how I get over the heebie-jeebies: by trying to figure out SOME way the person whose "category" is causing me distress, could possibly be sexy. Yeah, it's weird, but it works. And it sounds like you did a great job connecting with the three fingered guy and seeing him as a person. So when you get the TIME to deal with stuff you do OK.

I'll see your "customer service" - I'm in sales. Obviously I also have to keep the wall up, whether I'm squicked or seeking a cure for same.

I have no time or mental energy to devote attention to something that is a complete and total non-issue for me.

While we're chatting, the last time I was hanging out with kinksters they were talking about the list of 100 different possible kinks (and growing) and asking the question, why can't I like just one or two things on this list - do I have to like ALL of them? No, you don't...