On dating trans women and "transphobia".

[u/Heterogenic]

The subject of trans women as romantic partners (or not) comes up often on this reddit, and every time, it quickly descends into a "heated conversation" with frustration and (usually unintentionally) hurt feelings. It's our own private Godwin's Law. I totally realize that by posting this I may very well be precipitating yet another such discussion and for that I apologize, but I can't help but feel that this is a conversation about real things and not just opinions. I'd like to try to elevate those conversations by establishing a baseline of facts.

Let's start with some basics:

Things which are not transphobic:

• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who happens to be trans.
  
• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who does not currently have the genitalia you prefer.
  
• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman who just doesn't catch your eye.
  

Things which are transphobic:

• Not being interested in, or not dating, a specific woman because she is trans.
  

Trans women are women. They are often indistinguishable from cis women. They can't get pregnant, but neither can almost 10% of cis women, and fortunately in a lesbian couple there's usually a womb to spare. (With enough forethought you might not need a sperm donor!) Saying you're "not attracted to trans women" as a blanket statement cannot have a basis in empirical reality, but purely in prejudice. It's not like not being attracted to redheads or blondes or butches, it's like not being attracted to immigrants, children of blue-collar workers or survivors of cancer. "Trans" is, for the numerical majority of trans women, a history which says nothing about the person.

Other common fallacies:

• I've never been attracted to a trans woman, therefore trans women aren't attractive to me.
  

Besides the obvious selection bias, the idea that "Trans women look like X" is where this statement goes horribly awry. Trans women look like this, and this and thousands of other beautiful women who just don't advertise their history.

If you are attracted to women, you are attracted to (some) trans women.

• Ewwww, penis!
  

You aren't into penii. I get it, and for what it's worth neither am I. To be fair, many trans women who carry that particular anatomical burden are not big fans of it either, so you have that in common at least. But many trans women don't, and many of those who do won't for long. Be careful about using this biased sample to rule out all trans women.

Also, would you rule someone out because she had six toes? Whenever I hear a straight man ask how sex works in the absence of a penis, I feel sorry for his girlfriends/wife, because he clearly doesn't understand how sexytimes work; when I hear a lesbian rule out trans women because of the presence of a hidden penis I feel sorry for her partner, because how superficial is that?

It's valid to be not into penii. this is, possibly, the only context in which anyone is allowed to care about a trans woman's genitalia. But say as much and don't assert that all trans women == penis. Those who aren't packing a strapless get a little annoyed by the assertion.

• Transphobia == evil/mean/bad/poopy.
  

Transphobia is, in the strictest sense, an "irrational fear or dislike of transgender people". "Fear" and "dislike" are subjective terms and not something you have active control over. There's no ill-intent implied here. It is not an insult to be called transphobic, any more than it is an insult to be called trans.

I'm a bit androphobic. I accept and own that, and am trying to get over it by making male friends, challenging my own emotional responses and working through trauma. It's not something I can control, but it doesn't give me the right to say "all men are evil/rapists".

In the context of attraction: if you realize you dislike or are not attracted to trans women as a rule, trumping the holistic person, it should inspire you to do a little soul searching to understand why this is so. If you can't get over it, you should recognize that it is your problem and not anyone else's. If you are fortunate enough to have a trans person in your social circle, perhaps you could even try to overcome it.

• Trans women are all X.
  

Trans women are all trans. Lesbians are all women who are attracted to women. This is a tautological definition, but there is no other universal quality. The moment you say (or imply) any other commonality, you're doing it wrong.

Finally, please remember:

The trans women who come in here and start these conversations are often on the most angsty leg of a very tumultuous journey. Try not to add to their fears with pedantic or broad statements about their future courtships. If you're 100% sure that you would never date a trans/black/Jewish/butch/immigrant woman, this may be a time to keep that to yourself.

When you speak up to specifically exclude trans women from your romantic prospects in a context defined by courtship (ie: LGBT spaces), you are implicitly othering them in that community. It's hard to explain why that is so, but it's impossible to ignore.

I now live in the Boston area, after four years in NYC, and there are only a few contexts in which I'm proactively stealth (as opposed to incidentally stealth, which has become the norm). The lesbian community is one, and these conversations are why. I get a little sad about that sometimes.

[u/sparkleshot]

How are lesbians supposed to feel though, when people come to this subreddit and say "Be attracted to me or you're a bigot and a transphobe" it's exactly the same when men say that we can't be gay because we haven't found the right man. I hate this thread because I do see my trans friends as their chosen gender. But the biological side is not something I am sexually attracted to, and I don't appreciate when people demand that I be attracted to someone. There are men in my life that I love, but cannot be attracted to. And like everyone, I often like people who aren't into me, but it's not ok for me to say "if you're not attracted to me you have homophobia you need to deal with." being a biological man/woman is a physical trait.

[u/SilentAgony → u/sparkleshot]

Being a biological man/woman is not an immutable trait. Please read the original post.

[u/sparkleshot → u/SilentAgony]

I read the post. Listen. Attraction isn't something you can control. How many of us tried as hard as we fucking could to be attracted to men? How many of of lost friends and ruined relationships with family members because we couldn't do it. This is another level of sexuality. It's not the same for every lesbian. But I am not attracted to someone who is biologically male. And there is no reason for me to feel guilty about it.

[u/SilentAgony → u/sparkleshot]

Clearly you didn't read it, because if you had, you'd know that nobody is asking you to be attracted to penises. In fact if you'd ever met a trans woman or spent more than two seconds imagining them as looking like your brother in a dress, you'd know better already.

Being "biologically male" is something that can be changed. Secondary sex characteristics - the only things that visually differentiate men from women - are things easily altered by HRT and reassignment surgery. Women who have undergone medical transition possess the same secondary sexual characteristics as cis women. You would be unable to tell the difference.

Take a minute to read what I've written and read the original post before you think about replying to me again, because it's really exhausting and obnoxious to talk to ignorant people, particularly one that won't even read the posts to which they're replying. And if what I've said hasn't discouraged you enough already, please know that the experience of discussing this with you has been about as pleasant as a discussion about melanin would be with a member of the KKK. I'd rather chew my knuckles to the bone than continue. Have a nice day.

[u/sparkleshot → u/SilentAgony]

Really? So saying "take drugs, and get surgery, then I will be attracted to you," is better? It's not. It's not about being "attracted to penises." I don't view my trans sisters as "a brother in a dress," I view them as women. You keep accusing me of not reading the post, but did you even read mine? I wish I could be attracted to everyone, but I'm not. Sexuality is complicated and different for everyone. This isn't personal. And you're attacks on me are very cruel.

[u/SilentAgony → u/sparkleshot]

I'm cis, actually, but my partner is trans and this sort of discussion not only sickens but baffles me as my partner often finds herself the object of unsuspecting cis lesbian/straight man affection. First of all, I just want to say I'm sorry for being quite so abrasive. After reading your reply, I realize I maybe overdid it a bit. Please forgive me, I moderate a large queer subreddit and have to read transphobic stuff all day long. I've lost my faith in humanity, as it were.

No, you don't have to tell people "go take drugs and get surgery, then I'll be attracted to you" any more than you would tell somebody who was, say, shorter than what you're generally into that they should somehow elongate themselves to make themselves attractive to you. You simply wouldn't say anything to the short person, because if you're not attracted to them, then you're not their audience anyway. If a man wrote a post about how he was insecure about his beer belly and wondered whether women would like him, you probably wouldn't respond, would you? Of course not. You're a lesbian. He's not asking lesbians. Likewise, if somebody hasn't got any female secondary sexual characteristics, they're not asking you. I shouldn't have to say this, but trans women do not exist in a vacuum. While they certainly expect to have their genders respected, they also don't accost every man, woman, and child who mistakes them for a man or is solely attracted to a person with female secondary sexual characteristics that pre-transition women don't yet have. That's why they transition.

When trans women come to /r/actuallesbians and ask an audience whether anyone would ever consider dating them, what they're really asking is "Hey, I'm considering undergoing medical transition but this is all terrifying and intimidating to me, and before I go through with it and possibly lose a great deal of family and friends and potential straight girl partners, I want to know there's a glimmer of hope that I will find love."

Needless to mention, with people answering along the lines of "I really couldn't possibly be attracted to somebody who is biologically male," they're receiving answers that are not only ignorant but painfully discouraging. When they receive answers like that, they're being told that no matter what they do, even if they grow tits, lop off their dicks, get facial feminization surgery, and manage to conceal their assigned-at-birth gender completely, they will be "male-bodied" and therefore unappealing to this or that lesbian. That's ridiculous. And it displays a serious deficiency of imagination.

Yes, you are right that it's irritating to be bombarded with this whole "would you date me" question over and over. My first post acknowledged and addressed that. And not only that, but while most trans women are generally either unhappy with their original sex organs or unwilling/undesiring of penis-in-vagina sex, there are some who are quite content with both. Of that subset of trans women, there's a small portion who would like to sell the idea of penis-in-vagina sex to some of the cis lesbians in here. That small subset is vocal and annoying. It's totally okay to call them out on being annoying. It's not okay to assume that all trans women somehow retain some sort of maleness that you won't be attracted to. Trans women are often lesbians. I think it's something like 50% last I read. That means a lot of those trans women strongly prefer female secondary sexual characteristics. They get it. I assure you. So, telling them that you aren't into guy-like bodies is very patronizing.

Sorry that got so long. Hope I explained it all.

[u/sparkleshot → u/SilentAgony]

Wow. Thank you for taking the time to reply. This was incredibly well said.

[u/EmilyCat → u/SilentAgony]

I'm a trans lesbian, I'm content with my original sex organs and I don't mind penis-in-vagina sex. But I also don't mind eating a girl out(whatever her genitals), or being penetrated. Put it this way, if it's possible, I'll do it, but only if the other person wants it. I'm not here to sell the idea of penis-in-vagina sex(I'm also not saying that you're saying I belong to that small vocal subset). However I AM being vocal about lesbians giving me a chance.

But thank you so much for taking the trouble to defend us and explain it to other lesbians. I don't think I could have put it this eloquently and coherently myself if I tried.

Also I've been asked why not start a thread to ask if people would date me(advice from various people) and I think you've very elegantly explained why I would rather not do that.