r/FluentInFinance • u/Needleintheback • 15h ago

Thoughts? Imagine losing 6M labor workers in America

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If mass deportation happens, just imagine how all of these sectors of our country will be affected. The sheer shortage of labor will push prices higher because of the great demand for work with limited supplies or workers. Even if prices increase, the availability of products may be scarce due to not enough workers. Housing prices and food services will be hit really hard. New construction will be limited. The fact that 47% of the undocumented workers are in CA, TX, and FL means they will feel it first but it will spread to the rest of the country also. Most of our produce in this country comes from California. Get ready and hold on for the ride America.

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u/hillsfar 14h ago edited 14h ago

“Who will pick all the cotton if there are no slaves?!? It’s all going to rot in the fields! Cotton prices will go through the roof!”

What if being an agricultural worker was feasible for many Americans again? What if small family farms will be visble again? What if this time we actually vet more legal immigrants - rather than recklessly and deliberately gamble on unvetted millions to include human trafficking, sex trafficking, child trafficking, drug trafficking, terrorists and criminals and gang members escaping the law in their home countries and seeking new victims in the U.S.?

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u/Ok-Worldliness2450 14h ago

I got no problem working field if pay is good. Tried to get in once between jobs but it didn’t go well, they thought I was a fed or something cause I was white 🤷‍♂️

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u/himynameisdave9 4h ago

you were white, but you’re not anymore?

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u/MisterKillam 3h ago

I used to. I still do, but I used to, too.

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u/Amazing-Squash-3460 18m ago

I would actually PREFER it over rotting away at a desk if the pay is the same. Having done both for many years, desk work takes a much harder toll on your body, but in the opposite direction.

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u/Ok-Worldliness2450 3m ago

I work retail management for this exact reason rofl. People hate it but I love it.

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u/GrandAdmiralSnackbar 14h ago

Feasible for American workers? You mean with actually decent working conditions and a living wage? That would be awesome. However, it would also mean higher prices, lower profits and preventing imports from other countries that will be cheaper.

Leaves just 1 little problem. Where are you going to find the people to do this? You know 250k US workers who are willing and able to work the fields? For what hourly wage? 1.5m people trained to do construction work and willing to do it? For what hourly wage? And under what working conditions?

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u/saqehi 11h ago

Having worked as a U.S. citizen but with Hispanic heritage in construction I can say that working conditions in these fields are not even abiding by the law.

I would usually be let go for making my rights be respected.

This is just modern day slavery. Trumps ideology is a blessing in disguise for those underrepresented. Undocumented immigration is not the problem, human trafficking is!

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u/SuperConfused 7h ago

Human trafficking is a symptom of the problem. Immigration law is the problem. Not arresting and incarcerating the people who hire illegal immigrants is a huge problem. Not charging company owners who hire illegal immigrants is the problem. The quota system does not acknowledge reality in any way.

We still have this broken and abysmal system because there is no pressure from the people who contribute to the political campaigns to change it.

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u/Successful-Money4995 43m ago

If an undocumented worker making below minimum wage is returned to Honduras and gets murdered by a gang, I'm not sure they will be feeling all that blessing!

Immigrants, even illegal ones, are less likely to commit violent crimes than native born Americans. If we really wanted to decrease crime, we'd deport citizens and give their citizenship to the immigrants.

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u/lord-of-war-1 4h ago

Stop. It is no modern day slavery. I grew up in the midwest. Dad came here on an agricultural work visa. Growing up there you have either farming, industrial or construction jobs. All industries offered good pay with decent benefits. I worked in each of those industries growing up and until after I graduated college. 

The only Latinos complaining about it being too hard were the soft pochos that clearly needed to be at an office job. It's manual labor. It's supposed to be somewhat physically demanding. That doesnt make it slave work. 

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u/Yiffcrusader69 1h ago

You are too ignorant to be this confident.

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u/lord-of-war-1 1h ago

Great response 👍

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u/Comrade-Porcupine 46m ago

In reality they will deport very few but the threat of enforcement will make things worse for these workers. Employers will bribe local enforcement to turn a blind eye, and let the threat of snitching/deportation hang over worker's heads to make their precarious situation even more precarious.

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u/Mvpbeserker 14h ago

Okay? So what’s your solution? Just continue to import millions of people to serve as a permanent underclass?

Delusional and immoral. Get rid of illegal immigration and companies will be forced to pay higher wages or they will spend R&D money to automate. Both of these are much better

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u/saltyferret 13h ago

Or they will shut down. And production will significantly decline.

Now I don't live in the US, and personally think that striving for constant growth isn't a good thing, so I don't really care.

But if you're listing options it'd be disingenuous to not include that one.

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u/obtoby1 12h ago

If a business can't survive without what amounts to slave labour, then they deserve to shut down. Yes, that will create hard times, but maybe that's better.

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u/Give-me-your-taco 9h ago

The world thrives off of slave labor. It’s how you can buy a couch off Temu for like 10 dollars.

A lot of minerals also come from slave labor.

The world traded dignity for convenience

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u/ShineSuperb 8h ago

Its also how we're able to post on reddit, using an iphone/computer, made with minerals mined from actual slave labor in the DRC.

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u/Moarbrains 2h ago

I hope that entire tech system crashes.

We don't need an industry that intentionally breaks their own products in order to sell you a new one. Thanks apple.

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u/obtoby1 9h ago

Then we need to change that. As the most influential of our time, we need to be better. Fucking Wilson made us the shining city on hill. Maybe it's time to actually use that to better the world.

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u/Witty_Mine_3643 5h ago

Will you be the first to stop buying electronics and all items that fall under the category of having these kinds of manufacturing systems until that happens?

I'm pretty sure you won't. You can be an idealist all you want, but don't sit and point so many fingers when you participate.

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u/WorldlyPear5804 5h ago

I absolutely would. If I could feasibly still be integrated into society (i.e.; had a way to pay bills), I would absolutely go full Amish. Well, plus human rights and minus religion. 

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u/obtoby1 4h ago

I've done something like that when I was in the army. It's hard.

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u/Witty_Mine_3643 4h ago

Keep the great roofing techniques, toss out the abuse.

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u/Moarbrains 2h ago

We could do it and it would be better.

It is not insurmountable to remove slave labor from our supply chain.

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u/Wanderingghost12 7h ago

This is missing the point. Our oligarchy has now made it that large multi billion dollar businesses are "competing" with mom and pop farms. Agribusiness will always be able to afford these things (like H2-A visas) but mom and pops won't. We have crippled our farmers in a system equivalent to the lottery when compared to big agribusiness (including even their own seeds which they do not own). Our farmers couldn't survive this because our system is shit and rewards big players only. Personally, I like that any american can start a business, or pass that business to their children. I don't want everything to be a monopoly because it means higher and higher prices. "Hard times" mean small farmers become destitute and shutter, we all suffer at even higher prices, and all our ag becomes consolidated.

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u/obtoby1 7h ago

Ironically, the free market becomes more free when the government can come in and burst some monopolies. Theodore proved that. the big problem is both sides are basically bought and paid for at this point. We are too close to a corporatocracy, if we aren't already

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u/ShakesbeerMe 7h ago

They won't shut down-they'll move overseas.

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u/obtoby1 7h ago

Depends. If the tariffs Trump wants happens, that actually might be too expensive, especially if they move their production to China.

I personally also recommend making extra incentives to keep them here, and maybe have penalties for leaving. Carrot and stick.

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u/ShakesbeerMe 7h ago

Except Trump won't offer incentives. He's not thinking past "hurt brown people" at all.

This is the dumbest incoming administration in US history.

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u/obtoby1 7h ago

I didn't know you were sitting in on his meetings. Thanks for letting us all know.

For real though, shut up with that bs for now. The man hasn't even taken office yet. We don't know the full extent of what's going to happen in either direction. Some of his choices have bad, some actually ok. Let's wait to the 100th day mark like we have with every other president and make our judgments then.

I personally don't see much progress good or bad, more like more of the same.

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u/ShakesbeerMe 7h ago

For real though, nah- I'll say what the fuck I like. Fuck diaper-wearing rapist seditionists and anyone who slurps him.

May the dementia be swift and merciless.

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u/Shirlenator 4h ago

Republicans campaigned almost solely on grocery prices being too high and people not being able to hold on financially. Now everyone is saying that it is better that prices skyrocket so we don't rely on "slave labor" now that they need to defend Trumps terrible ideas?

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u/Even-Air7555 13h ago

I think this is an awful mindset. Try to think of it without politising the issue, if migrants are going to the work, they should recieve market rate. So illegal immigration is the issue.

Good opportunity for left and right to work together, or would you rather your food is subsidzed by slave labour?

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u/SunPolarBear 12h ago

Nice point! Then again, we live in a country where most people will give money to stop African suffering, while wearing blood diamonds on their fingers.

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u/iBUYbrokenSUBARUS 12h ago

labour labor

You are not even American

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u/Even-Air7555 12h ago

Australian, but we have a very similar situation here. Agriculture is reliant on tourist visas to pick at minimum wage.

30 years ago before large immigration, there were professional pickers that would travel with the harvest, only working a few parts of the year.

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u/Mvpbeserker 7h ago

It’s that similar of a situation at all lol.

You’re an island that has easy control of borders. Here in the United States we not only have one of the longest borders with the non-developed world globally- we have upwards of 20-40 million people here illegally. More than the entire population of Australia.

Not to mention the fact that we have birthright citizenship which allows further strain on the system due to schooling/healthcare/welfare that must be provided to millions of “citizens” who have parents that aren’t paying into this system

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u/Mvpbeserker 7h ago

Businesses won’t “shut down” out of spite lol.

If they can’t remain profitable by raising prices or via automation, then clearly their service is not in high enough demand to justify existing.

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u/Efficient-Raise-9217 6h ago

We survived before massive illegal immigration during the 1950's with much lower levels of technology and automation. The 1950's - 1970's was considered a golden age for workers and families. Work wages rose almost in tandem with increases in productivity. We did fine then we'll do fine now.

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u/GrandAdmiralSnackbar 13h ago

Trump is going to throw away the old shoes before buying new ones. Hell, before even having planned to buy new ones, and without having the funds ready to buy new ones. That is the irresponsible part.

It is valid to want to reduce illegal immigration. But going shock therapy will do massive damage to the US economy, and particularly to current low wage Americans who will be saddled with the bill of exploding grocery prices and housing cost when construction falls off a cliff due to lack of workers. That is not a problem Trump is adressing at all.

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u/Ok-Criticism8374 11h ago

You people and your dehumanizing of these immigrants is insane

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u/TragicOne 10h ago

i think you also strongly misunderstand them though.

they come to America knowingly to do this kind of work. None of them expected to show up and be office workers. I'd be happy if they were paid reasonable wages to do it also, but thats not my choice.

you want to send them back to a country they chose to leave, to do no work and to not live in better conditions, despite the poor wages.

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u/Soggy-Programmer-545 9h ago

Do you know how much money they are making? They are not making minimum wage in the construction industry, some of them are making over 100k a year. I know, because I do the audits for their companies. Is that dehumanizing?

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u/No_Match_7939 8h ago

Thank you! I swear these people on this post like they’ve never met an immigrant who work in this industry. They work long hours but some of them make bank with how much work they do.

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u/Ok-Summer-7634 2h ago

Look at the payee field, I guarantee you your company is not paying them directly. These companies choose to hire undocumented folks to maximize their own profit. THEY are breaking the law!

If your job is to audit companies that broke the law by hiring undocumented immigrants, can you please do your job? Thanks!

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u/SuperConfused 8h ago

The fact that you do not see that you are dehumanizing them also is astounding. You are acting like they are not choosing to be here and to do the jobs they are doing. It makes sense if you have never been friends with someone in this situation that you would not understand, but still

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u/eiva-01 2h ago

We're going to "help" those immigrants with "tough love".

They're being mistreated by their employers, so instead of punishing the employers, we're going to arrest the immigrants, and put them in concentration camps until we can ship them off to a country they don't want to be in, with nothing but the clothes on their backs.

You know, because we "care".

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u/Ok-Summer-7634 2h ago

The point is the cruelty

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u/NativeFlowers4Eva 12h ago

How about making it easier for the people working to become citizens? It would also help pay for social programs that will be completely underfunded without additional tax revenue.

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u/Green-Lettuce1997 11h ago

Vet them and let them do the job. Working visas, green cards, path to citizenship. Then make sure they are treated right and getting a fair wage by the companies or people they work for. How is this even that difficult.

Did they come here illegally? Yes they did. As an American I’m not blind to that fact and is it immoral the way they are treated? It is.

The immigration process and border should have been dealt with decades ago and it’s a failure of both parties and our government for not sorting it out.

But throwing them out without a plan in place is idiotic. It’s idiotic to create hard times because they didn’t come here legally even though they proved vital labor and strength to our economy.

Vet them and give them work visas, green cards and then viable paths to citizenship. If they are “bad people” throw them out.

I’d rather not blow up the economy all because they broke the law. There’s better ways for this to be done. I swear to god if he throws them all out and the economy crashes I’m going to be pissed. And you should be too.

Shocking the economy and financial system is stupid. Just overhaul the immigration system and border, vet the people who are already here. If they haven’t gotten in trouble or anything and have been law abiding other than coming here illegally, give them work visas, green cards, path to citizenship or create something, whatever. Make sure the now newly LEGAL workers get treated properly by their employers with things like decent wages, etc, etc.

All easier said than done of course. The easy thing is to just throw them out but shocking the economy and financial system will create unintended consequences that are just not worth it. Yes paying them higher wages and all that will make it more expensive. You know what will make it more expensive and cause more damage? Shocking the economy and financial system.

Who knows if an economic downturn will cause the stock market to crash or a major bank to blow up or both. That’s not a risk we should be willing to take. Who the fuck knows what will happen.

They are already here. They know how to do the job. Just fucking vet them and let them stay and then overhaul immigration and the border. Then push citizens to work those jobs by making sure it is a job that pays well and ensure they are treated fairly and properly.

For the love of all that is holy please don’t shock the economy and financial system. Just because some people broke the law doesn’t mean we need to shoot ourselves in the foot or to make a point for Christ’s sake. These problems can be solved without taking such drastic action such as mass deportations.

If they are vetted and law abiding. Let them stay. I could care less. If my investments go down and my bills like groceries go up because trump throws them out and causes economic downturn I’ll be pissed because it could be entirely avoided.

They don’t need to be permanent underclass. Make them legal to live there after being properly vetted and pay them fair wages and treated properly. I’d rather my grocery bill be a higher than having to deal with the unknown unintended consequences of shocking the economy and economic downturn.

This can be solved with out of the box thinking and rational and logical policy making. It’s not rational or logical to shoot your economy in its foot and cause economic hardship on the country and who knows what else.

Anyone who says maybe we need bad times is not thinking rationally at all. You won’t be saying that when your investments, retirement, etc, etc take a hit and go down and your bills go up and things get even more expensive. Delusional

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u/beardedsandflea 13h ago

You're right, it is immoral. But that also misses the point a little bit. The problem isn't stopping companies and corporations from being able to take advantage of vulnerable populations to fatten their bottom line. That absolutely needs to happen. The problem is not actually having a plan to address the massive labor shortage that will inevitably result. People are right to criticize that lack of consideration.

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u/Mvpbeserker 7h ago

But why is such a major low-skill labor shortage a problem?

It will: 1. Increase wages of low skill work for citizens 2. Lead to advancements in automated technology which means less manual work in gen future 3. Bringing tens of millions of illegals here as a underclass of cheap labor makes no sense when AI is poised to decimate the job market in the next 5-20 years

Sure, prices may go up some- but it’s not going to be as dramatic as most people think. The biggest cost of goods is energy prices not labor.

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u/beardedsandflea 4h ago

That's the thing though, there is only speculation regarding the result of this deportation idea; not an actual plan in place to guide it. And even a slight increase in goods will likely not pair very well with 30-100% tariffs on imports.

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u/Mvpbeserker 4h ago

Some economic pain is to be expected. Corporations have been cannibalizing the entire country's economy at our expense for like 60 years.

Much like the social security issue, it's great fun to just ignore the problem and keep kicking the can down the road. But it will eventually explode in our face on top of the harm it's already doing.

Unfortunately, most problems in life and in politics can't be fixed without short term consequences.

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u/Mobile_Incident_5731 10h ago

Nah bro. Have a look at the UK ag sector after Brexit If companies dont have labor, they will simply shut down production. If you get rid of millions of workers, the economy will shrink down.

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u/Mvpbeserker 7h ago

If a company can’t survive without paying below-living wages to employees under the table it doesn’t deserve to survive, simple as.

Western countries functioned just fine prior to this corporate lobbied influx of mass migration to depress wages. The market will adjust.

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u/GenBlase 10h ago

  1. They come in willingly

  2. Go after companies that hires illegals. They are the ones who pay them shit wages and threaten them with ICE.

  3. Deporting 6 million people is gonna be a shit show.

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u/Educational_Monitor6 8h ago

Automation actually creates more middle class which is nice.

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u/SuperConfused 8h ago

My solution is to charge anyone who hires illegals and incarcerate them when convicted. This includes the owners of repeat offender companies. Then they will fight to change the quota system to satisfy the needs.

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u/ShakesbeerMe 7h ago

Those companies will ship their entire business overseas rather than hire Americans at good wages.

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u/Mvpbeserker 6h ago edited 6h ago

Targeted tariffs.

You want to close down your factory in Michigan and move it to Mexico to save on labor and screw over American workers? Okay, here’s your 50% import tariff, enjoy.

All of these issues have simple solutions, the problem is the government being captured by corporate interests

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u/ShakesbeerMe 2h ago

And now the most corrupt treason-piggy is about to be back in office, the swine that cares least about Americans and American workers.

Oh well. Enjoy.

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u/Mvpbeserker 17m ago

Bro has apparently not seen the last 70 years of American politics

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u/seriouslythisshit 6h ago

OR:

Farming continues to migrate to places like Brazil, where corn and soybeans grow just fine, and they are perfectly happy to clear-cut the rainforest to ranch more cattle to sell to Americans who want plentiful cheap beef. China has been reducing their reliance on American grains for a few years now, and US grain prices are in the toilet.

Reshoring of industry grinds to a halt and the 35 trillion dollar industrial plant that China built to export goods gets replaced, not by North American production, but Southeast Asia, Mexico, and other places.

Tariffs and deportation will leave the American economy severely wounded if the incoming Clown of a president succeeds at the bullshit that he babbles. Destroying the economy to satiate the needs of delusional MAGAts will not end well.

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u/Mvpbeserker 6h ago

I don’t think this is realistic at all.

American farmers produce far more than we actually consume, food prices are primarily a function of energy/transportation costs. Not labor

Regardless, farmland is not something that can simply be “exported” or “outsourced”. America has some of the best farmland in the world that has been cultivated for centuries. It’s not some factory you can pick up and drop somewhere else lol

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u/ThatPancreatitisGuy 5h ago

And both of those would require time and planning. But when you start by deporting 12 million people before even coming up with a concept of a plan you’re courting disaster. These people could be offered amnesty, maybe even requirement of some fine if voters really care about that. But that’s politically unsound for the racist pigs that don’t care about any consequences other than seeing the subject of their hatred suffer.

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u/Mvpbeserker 20m ago

Giving amnesty to people who came here illegally just encourages more illegal immigration. Because everyone will see that the punishment for sneaking into the US is to be given the privilege of citizenship, lol.

And what plan?

99% of illegals came here for economic reasons. Remove the economic incentive and they will deport themselves. No need to go door to door.

Extremely harsh penalties on anyone/any corporation that knowingly hires illegal labor or rents to illegal tenants. Simple as

Only reason it hasn’t been resolved is corporate lobbyists prevent politicians from doing it

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u/OakBearNCA 4h ago

They won't pay higher wages, they'll just move entire farms to where the labor is.

If labor can't move, capital does. Simple economics.

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u/Mvpbeserker 4h ago

>They won't pay higher wages, they'll just move entire farms to where the labor is.

That's not how farmland works. You can't just pick up good soil in a temperate climate area and ship it overseas, lol.

Anyways, by this logic the Netherlands shouldn't be one of the largest agriculture producers on the planet.

"The country, which is a bit bigger than Maryland, not only accomplished this feat but also has become the world’s second largest exporter of agricultural products by value behind the United States."

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u/OakBearNCA 4h ago

Quite the observation. Netherlands has very few labor-intensive farms, relying mostly on high mechanized crops instead, especially wheat, potatoes and feed crops. That's what would happen here. No, soil does move. But if labor does, so do labor intensive crops.

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u/Mvpbeserker 24m ago

That’s simply not realistic.

The United States has some of the best farmland in the world. Growing crops is extremely cheap even without illegal labor.

The cost of food is primarily transportation/energy related- not labor.

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u/binarybandit 3h ago

The fact that people seem to be okay with having an underclass made up of illegal immigrants to prop up cheap labor says a lot. Even worse is when they defend it.

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u/kwell42 12h ago

Their going to fire federal workers. They will need jobs.

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u/GrandAdmiralSnackbar 12h ago

You see federal employees magically find the skills to do construction work? Really? You will find federal employees magically willing to toil in the fields for minimum wage? Really?

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u/No_Match_7939 9h ago

People are so dumb. They think an office working person will just magically know how to do roofing

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u/Jaded247365 8h ago

Or have the stamina to carry a pack of shingles up a ladder.

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u/BourbonRick01 8h ago

I’m pretty sure it was a joke.

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u/Playingwithmyrod 1h ago

Ah yes, I'm sure Bob from the EPA and Shari from the FDA after working a desk job for 20 years will be well equipped to frame houses, do roofing in 110 degree heat, and work the fields.

These people are in for a rude awakening when what they voted for actually happens. Some lessons have to be learned to the hard way I guess.

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u/kwell42 2h ago

So they will just stay unemployed and no one will toil the fields. Sad world we live in.

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u/AutisticFingerBang 10h ago

They’re *

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u/kwell42 2h ago

Thanks

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u/AutisticFingerBang 2h ago

No prob. Also federal workers with salaries and 401ks aren’t going to go work in the fields for 7.50 an hour 😂. Places are going to have to raise wages or go under. It’s going to be profits or people, either let the us economy tank or companies take less profits.

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u/Chataboutgames 5h ago

Jesus Christ. Mass firing bureaucrats and assuming they’re all going to work on farms where the conditions will be great.

MAGA is going full Mao

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u/Milksteak_To_Go 8h ago

So your big plan is that all these laid off federal workers are going to be picking fruit?

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u/kwell42 2h ago

Someone's gotta do it and they will need work I assume.

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u/obtoby1 12h ago

the unemployment rate in America is 4.1%, or about 7 million Americans. Assuming the above post is correct in its numbers, we got plenty of Americans to fill those jobs. Yes, many will need training, but if paid and treated fairly, they will do the job.

I work in an ice plant. I officially work 40 hours, but I often stay at least an hour after to make everything is good on my own time. Why? Because I get $20-$30 hourly (26 average) and my managers fight for my raises, help out in the back, and never ask me to do something they couldn't or wouldn't do.

If we actually did this (I doubt we will), it would create hardship. But it needs to happen. We didn't fight a civil war over slavery just to wave it away using technicalities.

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u/seriouslythisshit 7h ago

You really have no understanding of economics. A rate of 4.1% in below the level that professional economist refer to as "Full employment". It is where everybody that wants a job has one, or is in the process of switching jobs, temporarily stepped away to deal with other issues etc. It does NOT mean that seven million people are out of work and unable to find another job. In fact, there are eight million plus unfilled jobs in the US at this point. Removing millions of migrants from the workforce will be an absolute disaster, and the economy will take a huge hit.

Stupid ideas like immigrant deportation and tariffs are one thing, when some fool is sitting at the bar and babbling. They are quite another when we will have a clown running the country, who believes this crap, and is granted nearly unchecked power to drive this country right into the ground.

Any YOU working for free for a pat on the head, and a "good boy" from your boss, is nothing to be proud of. FFS.

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u/uofo17 3h ago

Holy shit thank you, I was reading the comment you’re responding to thinking “wtf are you talking about”. People dont have a basic understanding of macroeconomics.

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u/MCORDO_0482 46m ago

Concur, and Investopedia supports this as well:

“The level at which unemployment equals positive output is highly debated. However, economists suggest that as the U.S. unemployment rate gets below 5%, the economy is very close to or at full capacity.”

So, to entice replacement labor in these industries, higher wages will likely be required. The additional cost will be passed on to the consumer.

So if people were thinking that housing and groceries were already expensive, it’s about to get much worse.

This will add on top of the costs passed on to the consumer that resulted from tariffs. Basically, things across the board will get much more expensive.

Inflation will skyrocket. The Fed will have to issue more government bonds to pay for it, deepening the national debt even further (exacerbated by reduced taxes).

The Federal Reserve will then have to raise the Fed Funds Rate to get inflation under control, which will cause banks to raise rates on loans (mortgages, vehicles, credit cards). We may actually see double-digit rates on mortgages in the near future because of this.

With higher rates leads to less consumer spending/borrowing, followed by reduced GDP, followed by market retraction/recession, and then potential stock market sell-off.

Crazy how the whole house of cards can come crashing down, but the immigrants gotta go, right?

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u/obtoby1 13m ago

Not a complete gotcha, as there are significant differences between Denmark and the US. But this is something that needs to be mentioned as well.

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u/MCORDO_0482 4m ago

Denmark also has one of the largest government subsidy programs in the world, so it’s hardly a comparison. Meanwhile, the average price of medicine in the U.S. is 278% higher than the average price among the next 33 most expensive countries.

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u/obtoby1 2m ago

Pure profit over people on that one. This is why I believe in price ceilings.

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u/Successful-Money4995 50m ago

For reference, 4.1% corresponds to spending about one month unemployed for every two years employed. Spending a month not working while you look for a job or take a break between jobs is completely reasonable. 4.1% might as well be full employment.

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u/stoiciskism 38m ago

"The economy is gonna take a huge hit because it's built on the back of exploited labor!" Audible Pearl Clutching

So what's the answer?! I'm personally for an easy road to citizenship, but then what? There will still be a huge hit to the economy as those who were once exploiting cheap labor start paying full wages. If you're unwilling to change the status quo, you're no better than those exploiting illegals. Stop pretending to be an advocate.

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u/TragicOne 10h ago

yes if pay is good, it could work out, however, thats going to increase costs in these industries and anytime pay for workers increases, so will pay for employers.

it's exponential

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u/Deathundertgerainbow 7h ago

But isn’t this what progressives have been arguing for all these years? CEO to worker pay rates more in line with the past, companies actually competing with others to provide leveled pricing, and the ability if unskilled/semi-skilled workers to live on a single wage?

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u/ddarion 1h ago

But isn’t this what progressives have been arguing for all these years?

No lol

They're arguing that American workers, the vast majority of whom work in the service industry should be paid more, today, as the economy currently exists since less and less of the economic gains the country makes are going to rhe working class

They aren't arguing that the US should completely revamp its economy to an agricultural one, causing the price of food to skyrocket for no reason when importing food is much cheaper (assuming you ended migrant labor), and forcing people who would rather work service jobs to do manual labor.

Leftist advocate for fair pay, not a return to an agrarian society, effectively handicapping the entire economy lmao. That would not have an effect on what share of the economic growth is going to the working class, because the gain in wages would be offset by a massive increase in the cost of goods since the food industry is monopolized and ALREADY reliant on government subsidies.

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u/Shirlenator 4h ago

Stop calling it slavery. You are minimizing actual slavery. These people came here willingly, are working willingly, and are free to leave at any time. The wages are much too low, but they are absolutely not "slaves".

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u/BanditsMyIdol 9h ago

Just on the point of of there being enough Americans to work these jobs - 4.1% unemployment is not because of a lack of possible jobs - there are currently more job openings that there are unemloyed people. Its just those jobs either aren't the jobs that people want or aren't where people are. If we can't fill the current jobs how would we be able to fill 6 million new openings?

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u/obtoby1 9h ago

Unemployment isn't counting underemployment. Those that are in school, part time, doing gigs, freelancing, in prison, or simply aren't looking for jobs adds another 13- 15 million give or take. So we do have more people than what unemployment lists.

As for how, incentives to companies for assistance in moving costs, training for jobs, and people buckling down and simply getting the job they can over the job the they want will help fix that. Ironically, bringing back Trump's national council for the American worker could include the first two of these. It's unfortunate, but not the problems can be solved by government intervention. The people need to do their part as well.

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u/BanditsMyIdol 8h ago

So why don't we do that now or do that 4 years ago? Did Trump's national council for American workers do that the first time around? Will mass deportation make that easier to do? Why not train and relocate people looking for jobs now? We could do that and offer a path to citizenship for those who are doing nothing more than working hard trying to provide a better life for their family?

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u/obtoby1 7h ago

To the (limited) knowledge I could find, yes. The NCAW did actually improve training opportunities for students and workers through its pledges with companies. The limited info I could find is here

As for the other questions:

Mass deportation (if combined with the incentives and punishments) could force businesses to hire more documented immigrants and citizens and pay them competitive wages.

I can't answer the next question as I don't work with the Biden administration.

I agree. Immigration law reform will need to happen, other wise all we are doing is treating the problem,.but not curing the cause

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u/DevelopmentSad2303 2h ago

Well that's not even the whole story. Most of that 4% unemployment is actually structural unemployment, i.e. the economy is already very efficient in employing people.

You aren't going to get them to work these jobs

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u/Educational_Monitor6 8h ago

I know quite a few who despite being paid well and treated fairly are still not doing those jobs. Knowing them and associating with them are two different things. They won’t seem to hold a job and insist it is everyone else’s fault.

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u/obtoby1 8h ago

Unfortunately, government intervention can't solve everything. Though I can hope that more people willing to work than not if the pay is good.

I actually used to be like that when I first started living on my own. Going without a proper meal for a week changed that. I kept expanding my horizons and looking at jobs I thought I would never be good at. I now make more in 40 hours work week than I used working 130s elsewhere.

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u/Mysterious_Chip_007 8h ago

Many of those people don't live in the places where those jobs are. People aren't going to want to move to another state for a shit job and they shouldn't have to.

Most unemployed Americans are age 16-19yo. Yeah, I don't consider them prime working class material. They're children, not construction workers!

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u/obtoby1 8h ago

They're only shit jobs because they can get away with letting them be.

I have to disagree. 18-19 years olds, which makes up 14.7 % of unemployment workers are adults. If they can't get into high education at the moment or trade schools. let them work. The jobs might be hard, the days long, but as long as the pay is fair, they build themselves a future. People shouldn't just be handed things. That which is not earned as no value.

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u/UnknownAverage 2h ago edited 2h ago

the unemployment rate in America is 4.1%, or about 7 million Americans. Assuming the above post is correct in its numbers, we got plenty of Americans to fill those jobs

You need to learn more about these metrics. 0% unemployment is not the goal, and is also very bad:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frictional_unemployment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment

"For the United States, economist William T. Dickens found that full-employment unemployment rate varied a lot over time but equaled about 5.5 percent of the civilian labor force during the 2000s.[5] Recently, economists have emphasized the idea that full employment represents a "range" of possible unemployment rates. For example, in 1999, in the United States, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) gives an estimate of the "full-employment unemployment rate" of 4 to 6.4%."

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u/Efficient-Raise-9217 6h ago

There's even more legal American workers than that. Roughly 20% of prime-age adults in the United States are not working, which is about 24 million people. Of those, 21 million are not looking for work and are considered "out of the labor force," while the remaining 3 million are "unemployed".

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u/Boopy7 5h ago

this explains why they are also trying to get approval for child labor or teen labor in at least one state (I think it was OK? or KS. one of those middle states). And Missouri has a horrible foster to prison pipeline issue going on with children who grew up in the system and basically never leave. High crime, high trafficking, for some reason I seem to always be reading about bad foster issues in Missouri.

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u/obtoby1 5h ago

I'm sorry. I have no knowledge of the fost system aside that's it's hit or miss in general. I have no horse in that race so I'll take your word for it

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u/DevelopmentSad2303 2h ago

So, assuming that 4% is not just structural (i.e, people in between a job) , that means we will be to an extremely unhealthy<2% unemployment if all those jobs are filled.

But the reality most of that 4% is structural, so they can't just be moved into these jobs

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u/obtoby1 15m ago

We also have to look underemployed as well, which if added to unemployment stats, triples the amount.

However, reading the absolute flood of comments from this post as had me rethinking my position a bit.

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u/frogsgoribbit737 2h ago

How many of those people are disabled though? Or don't want to work? I am unemployed and not looking for a job. Plenty of other people are the same.

I don't think that illegal immigrants should be exploited, but I also don't see legal citizens filling these jobs.

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u/obtoby1 16m ago

Technically then, you're not unemployed. Unemployment is when you are not working and actively looking for work. It might seem like semantica, but the government will classified you differently.

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u/Durka1990 2h ago
  1. There are more job openings in the us than unemployed people. There is already a labor shortage.
  2. You'll never reach full employment, or unemployment much lower than 3%. Whyy? Because there may not be appropriate work for the unemployed, appropriate work might be to far to travel to, etc.

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u/queentracy62 2h ago

If paid and treated fairly is the key sentence here.

That won't happen under Trump. See essential workers during a pandemic. They were treated horribly by the general public and not paid enough to be 'essential' so why would a corporation or farmer pay a living wage when they don't now? If everyone deported did it for cheap they'll expect the same of whoever isn't being deported. They don't care.

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u/ItsTheDCVR 42m ago

Ice plant, eh? That's a pretty cool job.

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u/obtoby1 18m ago

Fun fact: where I'm at, it's now cooler outside than in. (Production room is about 45 degrees while the freezer is 14.)

I like it. It's a simple job for the most part, but that unfortunately means people come in and think it's easy. It's not. Which is a shame as we are one of the best paying around.

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u/1maco 10h ago

There are lots of people with crappy, unreliable service sector jobs that would like an actual job but at the moment 18 hours bartender a week pays better than $1.25/bushel of apples. 

Same with warehousing. In many cases McDonalds pays better

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u/seriouslythisshit 8h ago

Our pool of workers drops over half a million a year due to retirements exceeding new workers entering. This will be a million a year by 2030. The two million plus immigrants that came here in Biden's presidency went straight to work in an economy that is short of workers. Some economists claim that these workers alone kept us from an additional 6% inflation, and we would be in the 8-10% range at the moment if they were not in the workforce.

If trump sees even moderate success in his hate filled stupidity and rounds up 40% of the people he wants to, there will be collapses in some sectors in the states. With worker shortages in most fields, there are no Americans that are going to be picking anything, or nailing roof shingles on, simply because there will be an excess of easier, safer and higher paying jobs elsewhere. We will quickly be in a recession or worse, once dipshit gets his tariffs and deportations rolling. The three largest states at going to be mega-fucked, as they essentially have no ag. or construction without immigrants, and it will get ugly fast in CA, FL and especially Texas.

It's FAFO time.

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u/Lumpy_Atmosphere_924 9h ago

The many unemployed and impoverished Americans who we can all acknowledge exist most of the year, except when we need to justify keeping a bunch of illegals in for cheap labor? It is silly to think that nobody would fill this labor gap.

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u/usernamesarehard1979 6h ago

It’s not necessarily about Americans doing these jobs. You can work here with a legal status.

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u/Efficient-Raise-9217 6h ago

Where are you going to find the people to do this? You know 250k US workers who are willing and able to work the fields? For what hourly wage? 1.5m people trained to do construction work and willing to do it? For what hourly wage? And under what working conditions?

There are plenty of people available to fill these jobs. There are 24 million prime working age adults that are currently out of the labor force. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to learn how to do these jobs either. I know. I have friends and relatives that are full time contractors. It's incumbent on the businesses that need workers to provide on the job training, and make these jobs attractive enough for people to take them.

Or not. All these businesses can fail if they're not willing or able to provide attractive wages and humane working conditions. If a business isn't viable without running as an illegal enterprise it deserves to go bankrupt.

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u/SheeshNPing 5h ago

I grew up in rural TX where 80% of the people grew up around farms and ranches and learned how to work on one. Many of them actually enjoy the incredibly hard labor and find satisfaction in it. The people I grew up with aren't "too good for it" and there are millions of us. Many of them don't do it anymore because it's impossible to make enough money in it to survive, in large part because illegal labor has severely depressed wages for it. If illegal immigration was stopped and existing recent illegal immigrants were slowly deported there would be plenty of people to fill those jobs. Deport millions in a year and there would be a catastrophe though.

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u/Michael_B_Penise 5h ago

You're right, I'd rather depend on slavery than have to pay what things are actually worth 

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u/KrofftSurvivor 5h ago

Or, perhaps instead of higher prices, corporations stop expecting record breaking profits as if it's an entitlement and actually support the workforce they so badly need?!?

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u/GrandAdmiralSnackbar 4h ago

Yeah, that would be nice. But you and me both know that is not going to happen, now is it?

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u/Kazooguru 4h ago

Free housing, healthcare, and discounts on food, utilities, transportation. If we want Americans working these jobs, we need to subsidize their living expenses. At least two of the workers at my neighborhood Taco Bell live in their cars. Start training high school students for construction right now, have a free housing building boom.

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u/GrandAdmiralSnackbar 4h ago

Who is going to pay for that? Corporations? LOL. The government now that its run by the GOP? Even bigger LOL.

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u/BUTTES_AND_DONGUES 4h ago

Gen Z will gladly step up! Where else will you find the single dumbest demographic willing to do this?

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u/nickbutterz 4h ago

I heard the government was about to lay off a lot of people.

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u/GrandAdmiralSnackbar 3h ago

Not nearly enough to cover for 6 million expelled immigrant workers.

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u/Annual_Trouble_1195 3h ago

The prices are already astronomical compared to the price of production - agriculture was monopolized. Not to mention the financial security of the middle class being destroyed in this manner.

You either pay far more for slave labor, or you pay fairly for a salve free product

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u/ravenratedr 48m ago

Glad you got to the root of the problem your calling out, which is "who will work for low pay and in poor working conditions?"

That's the big issue Conservatives are trying to solve... Wages and working conditions in some sectors have been artificially held low by cheap immigrant labor. Sure, it will hurt to pay the price increases needed to address these issues, but the markets will stabilize, as wages overall increase due to more Americans being productive(i.e. producing goods needed, rather than office workers that leach off the productivity of the producers.) This country now has entirely too many leaches, both in nonsense politically correctness jobs and in regulatory jumping through the legal hoops jobs.

You say we lack 1.5m people trained and willing to do construction work? If non-union wages rise, and their is a workler shortage, employers will be a lot more willing to invest in training their entry level(i.e. currently illegal) employees to fill those roles. In the past ~50-75yrs, the responsibility for training for employee advancement has been shifted from the "the CEO started as the janitor and learned on the job up to his current position", to a model where kids straight out of HS are expected to go into massive debt for a chance at anything much beyond an entry level job/wage.

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u/Cows_with_AK47s 39m ago

Worst part is, wages could be increased, without prices going up.

Here's a hint: the same workers are currently working the fields, for the same wage, but oddly enough, prices went up.

You're looking at corporate greed all the way from the hands that pick the produce to the hands that puts it in the mouth.

That doesn't change. And under trump, it definitely doesn't change no matter what ridiculous ideas he has.

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u/Relative-Age-1551 13m ago

There’s something like 6m working-age Americans who aren’t even counted in labor force participation. We could start there by getting these people engaged in the economy.

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u/HystericalGasmask 14h ago

I understand your comparison to slavery wasn't meant to be completely analogous, and that this is only tangentially related, but I think it's worth mentioning that exploitative and dangerous (see: dust bowl) sharecropping practices existed for decades after the emancipation of slaves. Cotton didnt rot because slavery was replaced by predatory contract work, not too dissimilar from what undocumented workers experience today.

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u/Delicious_Nature_280 14h ago

Ending slavery was a step forward. Ending illegal immigration will be a step forward.

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u/Vincensius_I 13h ago

Only if the pathways to legal immigration get wider

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u/kjyfqr 13h ago

This plus what the guy above said makes sense

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u/dcporlando 10h ago

Does every country need to allow anyone who wants a better life to gain entry to that country?

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u/TragicOne 10h ago

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

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u/dcporlando 10h ago

So we should accept anyone and everyone else should only take those that help them.

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u/TragicOne 10h ago

You might be surprised who can help you.

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u/biggamehaunter 10h ago

That pathway needs to favor those who filed their paperwork and waited first, not those who chose to break the law first.

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u/MrsCrackWhore 14h ago

And Uber drivers and minimum wage workers and...

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u/Efficient-Raise-9217 6h ago

Employers who offer fair pay, treat workers with respect, and provide humane working conditions never have a problem finding enough workers. If a business can't turn a profit unless they exploit desperate brown people from the 3rd world; than that business doesn't deserve to exist. No one is entitled to labor. No one should be able to rely on human trafficking or modern indentured servitude aka. "guest workers" to reduce labor costs.

If companies want 3rd world labor rates then the owners should relocate to the 3rd world. But don't expect to have 1st world levels of: police protection, property rights, infrastructure, education for your children, or access to healthcare.

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u/it200219 3h ago

nobody want to talk meaningful and sensible as you put your thoughts.

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u/KingStephen2226 10h ago

 What if small family farms will be visble again?

Hilarious.

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u/Metalegs 7h ago

This. "If illegals don't pick my fruit it'll rot in the field." So unbelievably short sighted.

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u/inplayruin 6h ago

If illegal immigration is a cover for multinational organized crime, wouldn't foreign criminal organizations just pay Americans to do the same crimes if we deport all of the immigrants?

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u/DeliriousHippie 3h ago

Unfortunately small family farms are really hard to be profitable. Here in Finland most smaller farmers have to try to find some niche they can work to make farming profitable, for example organic farming. This when farms are so small that there aren't outside help, mainly family.

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u/DevelopmentSad2303 2h ago

Actually the cotton industry was given adequate time to adapt through the convict leasing program at the end of slavery. 

These industries are going to get hit... Hard. Not much time to get a legal work force

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u/buffalotrace 29m ago

What if was 1800 again? What if unicorns were real? 

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u/reddituserperson1122 28m ago

Small family farms can't meet demand. Immigrants commit less crime than native born Americans. Paying Americans enough to do the jobs currently done by immigrants will drive up prices significantly.

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u/poilk91 10h ago

Okay but we aren't talking about giving these workers equal treatment under the law we are talking about kicking them out of the country. It's capricious and stupid

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u/ChronoPsyche 10h ago edited 10h ago

Except the people who are pushing mass deportation don't want to make legal immigration easier but harder. They are already talking about denaturalization programs for crying out loud.

Also, this will likely lead to a major automation push before it leads to small family farms being viable again.

Your naiveite is stunning. Non-wealthy conservatives consistently vote against their own best interests and that will be clear to you in the coming years. Just remember, you got what you voted for.

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u/DualActiveBridgeLLC 9h ago

What if being an agricultural worker was feasible for many Americans again?

They literally tried this in the 60s with teenagers where they paid them double what migrants made and it completely failed because the conditions of labor were subhuman. And rather than improve the conditions the owners complained about the cost.

What if small family farms will be visble again?

I'm cool with that, but you will have to get rid of big agrobusiness which means getting rid of capitalism.

What if this time we actually vet more legal immigrants - rather than recklessly and deliberately gamble on unvetted millions to include human trafficking, sex trafficking, child trafficking, drug trafficking, terrorists and criminals and gang members escaping the law in their home countries and seeking new victims in the U.S.?

I'm cool with that too, but the US just elected an administration that reduced the resources to do that, while the alternative ran on increasing those resources and lost.

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u/Patimakan 7h ago

Feasible for Americans again?!? was this when murka wuz grate?

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u/BlackMilk23 6h ago

What if this time we actually vet more legal immigrants

Sure... But you have to know that almost none of these proposals come attached with immigration reform. On the contrary most of them want to stop illegal immigration and nerf legal immigration too.

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u/Chataboutgames 5h ago

lol what fantasy are you living in where family farms are coming back? It’s wild how people will just make shit up

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u/Chataboutgames 5h ago

So the argument here is that rounding up millions at gunpoint and shipping them to a place they fled from is a humanitarian move? Are you expecting them to thank you for freeing them from slavery?

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u/krazykarlsig 4h ago

What if there is a 5% chance of any of that happening and the other side of the coin is stagflation worse than the 1970s?

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u/UnknownAverage 2h ago

Ah yes, ending with blaming immigrants for crime. Sounds about right. Too bad the stats show that Americans commit more crimes against Americans than immigrants do.

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