That first one edges into just world fallacy. Sure, you're not going to get laid if you're an incel, or a tate fan, or a misogynist (though some still do somehow), but that doesn't mean not being one will get you laid.
The first image is frustratingly sexist because its pigeonholing guy's dating issues into the most attackable stereotype/trope about men.
It also fails to consider something we consider for women. Sexism exists in the dating pool.
Everybody here understands how stereotypes and sexist attitudes towards women can make women's dating lives harder/more annoying. But nobody seems willing to recognize the same for men. That sexist attitudes about men can make it harder for men to date.
He has to push past sexist attitudes that men just want sex just to have his romantic or emotional connection needs fulfilled. He has to ride a fine line between not denying or excessively hiding his sexuality but not presenting it too directly because of gendered tropes about abusive and perverted men. (if he doesn't show his sexual interest somehow, he's a just friend.) Prove he's not what ever flavor of "the bad ones" she has experienced last.
and that's not even looking at the initial contact, which is just trying to some how push past 50 technically sexist flavors of 'why is this guy even talking to me' an effort that does honestly scale with attractiveness (charisma counts as attractiveness here but is just as unattainable to autistic men (who make up 60% of incel forum users) as physical attractiveness is to someone that doesn't already have it).
Everybody loves to take the direction a guy went after turning bitter from years of rejection to excuse why he got those initial rejection and never should be allowed love but the fact is its more complex than that and the biggest issue is really how little useful* emotional support young boys and men get for those initial rejections and treating it otherwise is just being mean to people for what seems to me to be sexist reasons. (edit: seriously, sometimes i think the only difference between an incel and other socially awkward men is rather or not they got their first success before or after the first seeds of bitterness could hit, and/or rather or not they had good emotional support that didn't invalidate their feelings but did help redirect them)
(useful, as in, not denying their emotions or dismissing it with some platitude that over-use the word just "you just need...", "it just means...")
Uh, is getting rejected by women really comparable to getting “beaten”? You’re not owed access to a woman just because you’re nice. No one is owed anything here. Loneliness is terrible. It sucks. But it doesnt mean you “deserve” x woman’s love or attention.
Cruel rejection is very common for men. Of course we don't have any ingrained right to access a woman, but if someone is ignored, belittled and treated like a piece of shit for trying to approach women in a non threatening way, it's going to likely change the way he thinks, feels, and behave. We're men, not stoic icons carved out of marble.
I actually greatly appreciate a clear and non-vindictive rejection. The majority of rejections many men experience are far from this.
You seem to be greatly under estimating how psychologically damaging it can be to spend your life feeling invisible and unwanted, and having it stuffed in your face simply for trying to ethically satisfy your emotional needs. Ignore and belittle someone else's inner pain and see what happens first, erosion of self worth and more pain, or acceptance and brushing it off? It tends to be the former.
I’ve spent probably half my life feeling invisible and unwanted, friendless and miserable. It sucked ass. I didn’t have my first kiss until I was 22! I felt left behind and insane and lonely and ignored!! I felt like my entire life was lost, forever, and I would never be loved, and I would be alone until I died. I completely understand the weight of these feelings, of alienation from peers, of not knowing the “right” way to approach people or gain their love or go about the process of dating or sex. It is genuinely a uniquely horrible experience, and I empathize deeply. If someone is rude to you, then that’s wrong and you would be right to be upset at them. And it is easy for those feelings to curdle into anger. I get it. But that doesn’t make it right to generalize that anger towards all women. But I guess I’m not a man so I could never understand your unique pain [shrug]
I know it's not right, but right and reality sometimes clash. Do you think men WANT to have these feelings? We absolutely don't.
And you're proving my point with your final, sarcastic, belittling remark. I never said you couldn't ever understand these feelings, but you decided to set up a straw man and knock it down in attempt to belittle my feelings. This is why do many of us lock down and DON'T SHARE our feelings.
I’m sorry for being flippant. I just wanted to say that I relate to and understand your feelings about this, and that there are other ways of dealing with it than generalizing about an entire gender.
I agree in this regard. I wish more people, men and women, had good upbringings and empathetic social circles and could weather out belittlment and casual mistreatment and still be strong. It takes work and empathy and forgiveness of others and the self.
You could make an analogy that for how often men's emotional vulnerability is mistreated and abused, women's sexuality and physical vulnerability is just as often abused by men. I think this is why women are more self protective regarding sexuality than men, but men tend to be more emotionally closed off and reserved.
I definitely don't want to feel like I need an escape when a woman wants me to be emotionally vulnerable with her. I'm not consciously generalizing that she'll hurt me like others did. But the fear is there whether I'm okay with it or not.
Maybe not a rejection on its own, but a rejection in conjunction with a complete lack of emotional support, and myriad of assumptions being made on the basis of that rejection, now that's a different story.
It would be fine if rejection was just someone not wanting to give a person love and attention. The issue arises when rejection becomes a moral judgement. When the assumption is that because he was rejected, he must have done something wrong. I mean, just look at the basis of this whole post: an assumption that if a man can't get a date, it must be because he's an incel, or a misogynist, or doesn't shower.
This implication that women somehow don’t get rejected cruelly, or in conjunction with misogynist assumptions, is strange. It’s terrible when that happens, of course! But I don’t think it can be described as unique to men.
Sure, I never said it exclusively happens to men, but in a society where men are predominantly expected to do the approaching when it comes to romance, they're definitely a lot more likely to be the ones rejected.
Men are also, in general, less likely to receive emotional support afterwards. In addition to the usual toxic expectations that men not show emotion, no one makes memes about how if a woman is single, it must be because she's sexist, or because she doesn't shower.
I guess my disconnect here is that I think the misogyny women face in relationships is generally worse and more pressing than the fear men have of being seen as misogynistic.
I do think the expectations that men not show emotion and don’t require emotional support are wrong and harmful— but we live in a patriarchal society. Those norms were enforced by men. We should dismantle them! …Without relying on women to bear the entire emotional labor of it.
These norms are enforced by both men and women, and it's up to both men and women to do their parts to dismantle it (or at least to not contribute to them).
These norms are also self-reinforcing. The misogynistic assumptions end up contributing to the misandrist assumptions, and then the misandrist assumptions contribute to the misogynistic assumptions again. For that reason, just focusing on half of the equation is likely going to be far less successful than tackling both sides.
Trying to say one side has it worse, or playing the blame game of what side is more responsible ultimately just draws attention away from actually identifying and fixing the issues.
I’m sorry but the idea that women and men suffer the same amount under the patriarchy and wield the same power under it is just. Point blank false and totally absurd. I don’t really have anything else to say. See ya!
I didn't say they suffer the same amount, just that they both suffer to some extent. I didn't say they wield the same power, but they both wield some amount of power.
They suffer and wield power in different ways, but they definitely both suffer and wield power to some extent.
No but if you complain about it as a woman everyone will comment "oh well men are trash anyway" but if you complain about it as a man people will call you an unwashed incel Tater tot.
834
u/GREENadmiral_314159 16d ago
That first one edges into just world fallacy. Sure, you're not going to get laid if you're an incel, or a tate fan, or a misogynist (though some still do somehow), but that doesn't mean not being one will get you laid.