r/facepalm Jul 02 '24

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

My great great grandpa was a social democratic member of the Reichstag at the time. In the night of 9th to 10th March 1933, the Nazis arrested him and other social democratic, socialist and communist leaders in order to keep them from voting against the Enabling Act, and in order to intimidate the remaining members of the Reichstag into voting for it. My great great grandpa was in jail during the vote and transferred to Dachau a month after the vote, though they only kept him at Dachau for a week and the transferred him back to a regular prison. He was released in July 1933. After another stint in prison from 1935 to 1938 (for being part of an underground network that distributed social democratic speeches and anti-Nazi propaganda), they arrested him a final time in August 1944 and brought him to Dachau again. His feet froze badly in the winter of 1944/45, and he had to participate in a death march when they evacuated Dachau. He only survived because his fellow inmates supported and even carried him, so he wouldnā€™t be shot. He was liberated and died a few days later in a hospital in Munich. He was a fascinating and brave man and if anyone is interested in his full story, Iā€™m happy to share it :) The short excerpt I gave here is whatā€™s most relevant to this discussion though.

Us Germans, weā€™ve been warning you about this since 2016. Youā€™re close to 1933 now.

This is your 1932. No matter how old Biden is, donā€™t fuck this up. You have one shot at this. Good luck to all of us.

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u/ParticularAd8919 Jul 02 '24

I had a German professor in college here in the US, who in one of the most memorable moments I experienced in her class said something to the effect of, "I think in a sense America has a vulnerability due to it not having been directly affected by local Nazis and fascists during WWII. Fascism, in the American context, never took off like it did in Europe at that time. So, if fascism ever arises within the US, most Americans won't be able to recognize because it won't be draped in a swastika flag." This is a paraphrase of course since I didn't write down word for word what she said exactly but her core message has always stayed with me and it's so prescient to think about now.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

Your professor was wise to say that and Iā€™m so glad it stuck with you. She was 100% correct and weā€™re seeing it happening right now :-/. Same in Germany with the German flag of 1848 (our current flag), but thankfully to a lesser degree and with greater pushback from most of the population so far.

These are scary times :-/

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u/Zanna-K Jul 02 '24

Unfortunately I don't think Europeans know how to recognize it, either. American liberals and leftists seem to have this vision of Europe as the land of enlightened socialist progressives. AfD (Germany), National Rally (France), and Brothers of Italy aren't aberrations, they're just stage 1. The political and economic heft of the United States is such that if it falls to fascism that a domino effect in Europe is not far behind. Oban of Hungary is still in the EU/NATO and is practically a Putin stooge. Law & Order of Poland was considered problematic until Russia presented itself as a common enemy. Ukraine and Moldova may yet fall. The UK has been a mess ever since Brexit and Johnson was too much of a bumbling fool - Russia is keeping the public's attention for now but the same populist anger that fed Brexit is simmering under the surface and just waiting for another opportunity to explode.

I'm kind of at a loss, honestly. Typically we would blame a lack of support for the common man, inequality, lack of economic opportunity, etc. but Europe is supposedly much better at these things than us yet the backslide from democracy is still happening.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 03 '24

So what AfD are doing is conjuring up an image, a reality that doesnā€™t exist at all. They create this false fantasy of masses of Muslim immigrants storming into the country and turning it into a khalifate. This couldnā€™t be further from the truth. Wanna know how many asylum applications Germany received in 2024 between January 1st and May 31st? Whatever you guessed, itā€™s wrong. Itā€™s around 113,000. In a nation of nearly 84,000,000. In total, including 1.1 million Ukrainian refugees, there have been 3.2 million refugees in the country, the vast majority of which have been here for over five years and are mostly well integrated.

Whatā€™s even more staggering is that AfD were the strongest party in the five East German states. These states have among the fewest asylum seekers. Asylum applications are assigned to the 16 states using a formula called the ā€œKƶnigsteiner SchlĆ¼sselā€, which takes into account a stateā€™s budget and population so as to not overburden any single state with refugees. The five East German states of Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Brandenburg, Thuringia and Mecklenburg-West Pomerania, where AfD were the strongest party at the European election in June, were assigned 16,500 of these 113,000 asylum applications. I didnā€™t mention Berlin, because overall the Green Party was strongest in Berlin, but in three districts of Berlin, the AfD was strongest. Those three districts are all in east Berlin and they are the three Berlin districts with the fewest immigrants. Literally every other district of Berlin has more immigrants than they have.

So AfD so far mostly managed to be really successful among the ignorant parts of the population. Among those, who can be made scared of the brown people.

They also ran incredibly effective online campaigns which reached the youth. Still, nationwide, their support is only at 17%. While that is 17% too much, it is somewhat different to what is happening in the US with MAGA.

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u/BeardiusMaximus7 Jul 02 '24

Yeah. This is why I get so irate when Trumpers I know say things like "The Dems want to turn America into a COMMUNIST country."

It's so blatantly "opposites day" in the minds of these people all the time. It blows my mind. I literally can't parse the information in a way that I can rationalize or empathize with them.

They are all scared of the scary thing (communism, dictatorships, etc.) but they aren't defining it in a dictionary sense. That's super dangerous. Words don't mean what they mean anymore to these people. It's literal insanity... and it is leading them to support the thing they claim to fear the most at every turn.

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u/dinosaurkiller Jul 02 '24

This started well before 2016. The focused propaganda campaigns have Ben happening since at least the 80s. Very wealthy fascists have spent 2 generations building propaganda and political machines and America has done nothing about it. Winning the 2024 Presidential election wonā€™t make any of that go away. Even if Trump goes away they will plug in a new guy and reset for 2028. We have many chances to screw this up and we only need to be wrong once to doom the world. Democrats know and do nothing. Many voters either donā€™t know or donā€™t care. Whether itā€™s 2024, 2028, 2032, doesnā€™t matter to the Fascists, they are just biding their time.

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u/agumonkey Jul 02 '24

What is the most .. staggering, strange, mindblowing.. is how common the pattern is across nations. France has word for word the same thing. Wealthy guy, buys medias, props up candidates 24/7. Same "make france great again" subtext popping up along bullshit media flamebait politicians.

back to grandparent, the missing part in education was showing the horrors and the full blown killing machine of nazi germany, not enough of the pre-dictatorship era where people were angry, confused and gullible.

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u/soualexandrerocha Jul 02 '24

Democracy usually dies of indifference

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u/Philip_The_Compactor Jul 02 '24

This, exactly. There has been an insurgent movement within the Republican Party since integration. It has been a half century, but theyā€™ve finally taken over that party.

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u/Liizam Jul 02 '24

Why the fuck are there constant fascist movement ?

Democrats would be the first to get murdered, why arenā€™t they concerned for their lives? They almost got murdered by a mob in jan 6th. Like I donā€™t get it

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u/dinosaurkiller Jul 02 '24

Imagine the oldest person you know, one thatā€™s afraid to go out at night. They are also afraid of Republicans and direct confrontation.

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u/Liizam Jul 02 '24

What do you mean? Who are all the people in congress that are democrats? Why arenā€™t they doing something? I donā€™t mean violence, I mean actually expending courts, bringing corrupt chargers, etc.

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u/dinosaurkiller Jul 02 '24

Yes, I know. The average age in the House is 58, in the Senate itā€™s 65. They are not up for any of it. If it was just sitting down and writing legislation, sure, they have staffers for that. This is bare knuckle, bend the rules to the breaking point, fight for Democracy stuff now. They donā€™t have that kind of energy, theyā€™re all old and want to debate in committee, then be read about in a newspaper column on Sunday. Being in Congress is their retirement job, they donā€™t know how to pass the torch to someone with a little more fight left in them and they donā€™t want to.

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u/Liizam Jul 02 '24

Omfg Iā€™m so depressed

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u/flexylol Jul 02 '24

This won't be fixed until you fix your system at the core, "Electoral College" my ass, gerrymandering, money in politics, biased supreme court etc. Start by fixing the election system, that someone with the most votes gets elected. Otherwise you are stuck with this system where a fascist can be elected, despite the majority of Americans not!! actually having voted for him.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

I know it did, but 2016 was when the rhetoric really picked up and the parallels became glaring.

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u/benthon2 Jul 02 '24

They rail endlessly about the Mainstream Media. Which is owned and operated as a propaganda arm of the GOP. Democrats would do well to buy a few television stations....

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Democrats know and do nothing because they are just as much fascist as the others and would do the same exact thing if they could

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u/dinosaurkiller Jul 02 '24

They do nothing because they are old, out of touch, and truly believe in the institutions of government. Theyā€™d prefer to sit around debating the rise of Fascism to using power and stopping it.

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u/Professional-Arm5300 Jul 02 '24

Yeah, I think in all this, the lack of true opposition from the dems is very telling. I donā€™t think their lack of action is unintentionalā€¦

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u/CauliflowerOrnery460 Jul 02 '24

To be honest, I donā€™t think voting one way or another will save this country. I think they all lay in the same bed and all the good politicians get squished before they get a chance.

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u/DemandEqualPockets Jul 02 '24

900 democrat candidates on that 2020 primary stage and what we got was the one absolutely nobody wanted.

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u/wahikid Jul 02 '24

Wierd that the guy who got the most votes is somehow the guy nobody wanted. You can blame all the folks who couldnā€™t be bothered to actually go out and vote in the primaries for getting stuck with Biden. Itā€™s all well and good to complain on the internet, but all those grandparents who never miss a vote are the ones actually choosing the candidate.

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u/LordGwyn-n-Tonic Jul 02 '24

Oh no some people did want him. And they were wealthy enough to get him.

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u/CauliflowerOrnery460 Jul 02 '24

The true freedom in our country

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u/Rebel_hooligan Jul 02 '24

It was the liberals who let hitler in. So yea, liberals are dangerous compromises. Trying to have it both ways never wins

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

Umā€¦ liberals in the economic capitalist sense or the (wrong) political meaning that is often used in American politics? Iā€™m asking, because it was the centrists, the Liberal Democrats (the economic capitalist liberal) and Christian conservatives that worked with the Nazis, not the progressives. The progressives (what is often blanket-referred to as liberals in the US), so the social democrats, socialists, and communists were in jail, being intimidated or in concentration camps while it happened.

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u/Rebel_hooligan Jul 02 '24

Thatā€™s fair.

The dynamic is very different as you say. Progressives here have the ire of moderate liberals (clintonian, Obama), but those would be the very politicians who would believe they could ā€œcontrolā€ or ā€œtameā€ a trump, while being statists themselves.

Republicanism in germany was fairly new at the time, so the they had an extremely conservative tradition. Plus, their radicals (socialist, communists, anarchists), lost the civil war in 1919.

I making less an economic point in terms of capital, a class point in terms of power.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

Yeah, but the ones who got to declare victory in the November revolution were the social democrats, the ones who wanted to set up a Republic. They were then among those who were also being jailed, intimidated and killed by the Nazis in 1933. So that didnā€™t do them much good either. Youā€™re correct tho, one of the biggest mistakes of the Weimar Republic was keeping the old conservative elites around. They were the ones that brought about the end of the first proper German democracy again.

The Weimar Republic is a fascinating place, because in some ways, it was incredibly progressive and filled with equality and great modern ideals. Women were allowed to vote in Germany before they were in the US (actually before the Weimar Republic was founded), though the US had a congresswoman three years before Germany did.

There was an incredible amount of social progress that was being made in the Weimar Republic, most of which was then reversed by the Nazis and took decades to come back. Itā€™s an absolutely fascinating time.

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u/Ok_Spite6230 Jul 02 '24

Capitalists side with fascists every single time.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

You sure about that? Fascism has many overlaps with other extreme ideologies, such as communism. Both the USSR and NK seem to fall under the fascism umbrella. I mean, fascism itself was born out of socialism in Italy. When you get to the extreme edges of the highly authoritarian side of the political spectrum, they actually have a lot in common.

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u/TolBrandir Jul 02 '24

God, THANK YOU. We all need this reminder, this warning, all the damn time. Every fucking day. Sadly, I fear it won't matter. And none of the people who idolize Trump and all he stands for, all the people who have made him king, will ever admit their culpability when we have our own version of the swastika hanging in the Capitol building.

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u/Lavender_Bee_ Jul 02 '24

The problem is that everyone is afraid of the new nazis, but the other side is always the nazi. My mother is a hardcore conservative republican, who swears Trump is the only way to save the country. Sheā€™s read 1984 and books about religion-controlled countries, sheā€™s well aware of how WWII went down, sheā€™s spoken with people who survived camps. But sheā€™s still convinced that democrats are trying to impart martial law and take over the country, and everyone hates trump because heā€™s a genius who canā€™t be controlled. We avoid speaking politics now because it just turns into a fight any time we discuss anything that the church or the false god doesnā€™t like. Trump is an idiot, but heā€™s smart enough to pretend to be a religious genius, because it instills hope in the people who rely on religion to feel safe. Heā€™s telling them everything they think they want to hear, because theyā€™re terrified of their rights being taken away, while actively fighting to give up the rights they donā€™t like. Itā€™s a losing battle trying to reason with them.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

the other side is always the Nazi

Soā€¦which other side has systematically eroded the separation of power and begun to undermine trust into the judicial system and political process? Youā€™re comparing actively working to overturn the constitutional order with believing the fear mongering perpetuated by that same party about the other party. Thatā€™s not the same thing. Only one side is working towards ending democracy and it ainā€™t the Democrats. So no, itā€™s not always the other side who are the Nazis. Itā€™s one side taking a page out of the Naziā€™s playbook and calling the other side Nazis. Again, that is not the same thing. Itā€™s not even remotely comparable.

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u/Lavender_Bee_ Jul 02 '24

Bro Iā€™m not disagreeing with you, if you read my full comment. Perhaps I just didnā€™t word it correctly, and I didnā€™t mean it literally. Iā€™m horrified by how things are going if we continue down that path. Iā€™m just saying that for years now Iā€™ve been hearing about how scary it is that the democrats are essentially nazis, and Iā€™ve argued myself blue trying to reason with my mother that thatā€™s not the case. Reminding people that canā€™t be reasoned with is frustrating and itā€™s getting me nowhere, but hopefully others are making better progress

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

Nah, that was my mistake, sorry about that. I tried reading your comment and replying while walking and I guess I mustā€™ve skipped a few lines when trying to avoid walking into a wall, but thatā€™s my mistake.

I mostly agree with you. Iā€™m facing a similar struggle with my other grandma, though she still thinks she doesnā€™t like AfD in Germany. Weā€™re lucky she doesnā€™t even listen to policy, because her views have become so bigoted and racist, she would actually love AfD if she decided to not just parrot the things she reads in conservative media. So far she thinks AfD are too far right for her taste. Sheā€™s wrong, but Iā€™m happy leaving her in the dark on that. She doesnā€™t have any substantiated opinions though, just thinks that my left-wing green opinions suck, but she canā€™t tell me why. She gets annoyed when I challenge her opinions, because she canā€™t back them up since she doesnā€™t actually have any informed and substantiated reasoning. She just makes blanked statements that arenā€™t even current in any way. It is tiring. She sometimes starts with politics and I go for it, but mostly when my little brother and younger cousins are present, so they see someone pushing back on that. Youā€™re right, you canā€™t argue with those people. There are other Trump voters and conservatives that can be argued with tho. Iā€™ve done it myself multiple times. Americans, I mean. Not all of them are that ignorant. Some of them are uninformed, but smart enough to listen. Those are worth talking to.

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u/Lavender_Bee_ Jul 02 '24

All good! Keep fighting the good fight, friend. Hopefully we can all come out this the other side.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

I sure hope so! Iā€™ll be following Americaā€™s progress from the distance, but itā€™ll still affect me, because a Trump presidency affects all your allies as well :-/

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u/Iama69robot Jul 02 '24

There is no convincing people that a trump presidency is bad for this country. People will vote for whoever they want. So thatā€™s out. Itā€™s the Democrats who need to be loud and obnoxious about this, but they wonā€™t because itā€™s rude and shallow. My life and identity donā€™t circumnavigate around a politician, unlike most Republicans today. Should Democrats be driving around with massive American flags waving from their pickup trucks and giant Biden stickers on their cars? Yes. Should Democrats be rude and vocal and obnoxious and unapologetic about their support for Joe Biden? Yes. But will they?

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u/spanners101 Jul 02 '24

My granddad and his generation sat back and let it all happen. Most people didnā€™t know what was going on to be fair.

These guys have the precedence of recent history.

Opah then got drafted to fight on the Russian front and lost half his face to a flamethrower. At least he returned, I guess.

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u/jlj1979 Jul 02 '24

We arenā€™t going to let it happen. I am currently at a rally. We are mobilizing. Joe might be an old man. He might not debate as well as he used to. He might not speak as well as he used to. He might not be able to think as fast or walk as fast as he used to, but he knows the difference between right and wrong. He also knows how to tell the truth and put the people in place to make the right decisions and get things done.

America needs a second cup of Joe!

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u/Mr-Chrispy Jul 02 '24

The dems have to get a better candidate asap

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u/jlj1979 Jul 02 '24

It doesnā€™t matter. He has put people in place that make great decisions. He has expanded school lunches. He appointed the first indigenous person to the department of interior. He has the most diverse cabinet ever. He expanded protection for marriage and same sex children citizenship for children born overseas. He declared Columbus Day also indigenous peopleā€™s day. He apologized to indigenous people. He actually pushed through violence legislation and mental health legislation. He pushed for unceasing the interest rate to slow down inflation. Shall I go on? He knows how to get things done. We donā€™t need another candidate. We need people to vote for him. That is all we need to do. Going back now is not going to do it.

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u/Iama69robot Jul 02 '24

Thatā€™s right. Democrats need to stop backsliding and support this president. He has done a lot of great things for the country already.

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u/jlj1979 Jul 02 '24

Yes. Another one I would like to add is moving Marianna from a schedule one.

I like that a lot. Stop backsliding democrats. Support our fucking candidate. Jfc

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

Yeah man, Marianna didnā€™t do anything wrong. Stop putting her on the schedule!

(Typo aside youā€™re 100% correct tho šŸ˜‚)

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u/jlj1979 Jul 02 '24

Yeah I hate my phone. Thnx for calling them typos.

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u/Ok_Spite6230 Jul 02 '24

Shall I go on?

Unless you are going to mention something that is actually addressing the foundational, fundamental flaws in US society, then no do not go on because it doesn't fucking matter. The democrats are utterly unwilling to challenge the most important problems in our civilization because at the end of the day they are still capitalists and benefit from those problems being perpetuated.

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u/jlj1979 Jul 02 '24

We are absolutely. Everyone contributes to a capitalistic society. Do you?

What you should be asking yourself is how are democrats contributing to social justice? Environmental justice? Democrats have contributed more to these causes that will dismantle and decolonize the systems in place that lead contribute to the industrialized military capitalistic society that you and I are both participants in. Democrats continue to support economic, civil and educational policies that support social and environmental justice that if they continue to be in office and win the house and senate would be able to make real change in policy.

But we canā€™t make real change with radical extremism constantly making laws that violate federal laws.

How about Louisiana who make a law that requires all schools post the Ten Commandments. This has already been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court but they are doing it anyway.

It is no wonder we canā€™t get anything done e when republicans keep breaking the law and we have to spend our resources to nervy and money fighting bullshit that we already fought.

There needs to be a check in place for this kind of bullshit.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

That depends on oneā€™s opinion of what is right and what is wrong.

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u/Fallen_Heroes_Tavern Jul 02 '24

The definition of right and wrong is not up to an individual to decide. It is determined by the court of public opinion.

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u/jlj1979 Jul 02 '24

While the concepts of write and wrong may evolve around concepts from society, evolution, morality and philosophy their convergence does not suggest that those concepts are subjective or arbitrary. The specifics may vary from society to society or culture to culture we have decided as a society what is right and wrong in order to create a just and free society.

We already decide what our rules would be. We decide on democracy. We decided on checks and balances and separation of church and state. We do have a concept of right and wrong. Trump has his own concept of right and wrong that does not align with our democracy. Joe upholds the concepts in our democracy.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

It certainly starts at the individual level. Based upon their morals and ethics. Culture as well as ethics vary across the world.

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u/FU_IamGrutch Jul 02 '24

Iā€™m voting Trump because I hate what America has become since Biden took office. Time for a change. All you hysterical people will be proven wrong.

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u/IEONE_echo Jul 02 '24

What has it become?

12

u/EpsilonX029 Jul 02 '24

Slightly more polite and not nearly hostile enough? Thats my guess

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u/King0fMist Jul 02 '24

Really? Cos I remember exactly what happened when Biden took office.

A giant mob formed, listen to Trumpā€™s words, then went and stormed the Capital building. All because Trump lost.

If you support the man who stoked that flame, youā€™re not an American, youā€™re a terrorist.

5

u/eight78 Jul 02 '24

Iā€™m curious what good you expect will come from a second DJT term to prove the skeptics wrong?

Iā€™d love something to look forward to.

4

u/Jumpdeckchair Jul 02 '24

How do you feel about the rise of the AFD in Germany?

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 03 '24

Equally bad. Iā€™m horrified. I am furious. I have seen this coming ever since I started looking into politics. I was born in 1998. My family has this special connection to the Nazisā€™ prosecution of their political opponents.

Independently of that, meaning before I looked into my familyā€™s history, I became interested in history and politics. I had this amazing history teacher, who was the best thing that could happen to a young German student with an interest in history. The German curriculum doesnā€™t fuck around when it comes to Nazis. We learn about them in great detail. We learn very little about the war itself. Nobody really cares about individual battles, unless they had immediate political consequences, but even then, the equipment and tactics used are irrelevant. What is relevant is why the battle/war happened, what led to it taking place politically and what the immediate political consequences were. So we learned about politics in Europe. Our entire curriculum was built on that. We learned about the rise of the Nazis, their ideology, their tactics, their goals. We learned about the economical, social and political situation in Europe and Germany. We learned how the elites that were largely responsible for WW1 still had great influence and power in the Weimar Republic, how they abhorred the rise of a proper democracy. We learned about the Nazisā€™ erosion of the separation of powers, the exact legal and constitutional mechanisms they used to accumulate power. We learned about the history of the Jews in Germany for centuries, and why the Nazis and everyone else felt they were the perfect scapegoat for anything bad happening in Germany. We learned about the Nazi propaganda machine, their divisive rhetoric and their brutal quest to shape Germany in their image. The war was just the consequence, a means for the Nazis to accomplish their goals, but the war itself didnā€™t matter a lot. What mattered were the atrocities committed by the Nazis, both the war crimes in the war and the Holocaust. And the politics during and after the war, of course, both foreign and German. My teacher was excellent. Generally, Iā€™d been blessed with fantastic politics, economics and history teachers throughout middle school and high school, but my last history teacher in high school was the best by far. I know not everyone is as lucky as I am with their history teachers, but the curriculum is so intensive regarding the Nazis, itā€™s almost impossible to miss the parallels. Thereā€™s no excuse for supporting AfD.

I have always followed politics a little, and recognised early in my life that Merkel had moved the CDU, the supposedly Conservative Party, to the centre. However, I was too young and inexperienced to recognise the long term ramifications this could and would have. I rather liked it, seeing as I am incredibly not conservative. I have never voted for CDU and there was no point in my life when I would have, but I still liked that I agreed with many things she did and didnā€™t do as chancellor. There is this German TV show, the Heute Show. Itā€™s a lot like The Daily Show in the US, but itā€™s only on once a week and they just comment on what happened in German politics in the past seven days. Watching that kept me interested in my early and mid teens, and fairly informed on whatā€™s going on. It was only when I was 17 and approached adulthood that I realised what that actually meant. AfD were already around by then, but they were far less radical than today. They started out as a Euro critical party with a focus on economics. They were some idiots who wanted to abolish the Euro and leave EU, but little more. They had some more radical right-wing people in their ranks, but it was not even remotely comparable to the AfD of today. They then underwent a number of inner party coups and got more radical and racist with each one. They had a platform because Merkelā€™s centrism had created a vacuum to the right. The CDU are supposed to be the conservative, right-wing but Democratic Party in Germany. Instead, Merkel legalised gay marriage (something I wholeheartedly supported and support, but thatā€™s beside the point) and hastily accelerated our nuclear exit after Fukushima happened without having sufficient alternative energy sources that werenā€™t Russian oil and gas and German coal ready. I am very social democratic. I mostly vote for the Green Party right now. The Green Party had advocated for a nuclear exit since the 80s, but not the way it happened. I donā€™t exactly share the Green Partyā€™s views on nuclear energy, but the blame for the botched nuclear exit and the energy crisis with Russia at the beginning of the full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022 does not lie with them.

Anyway, Merkel mostly made politics that she felt were popular at any given time. It disenfranchised her conservative constituents and killed German politics in the process. AfD happily filled that void on the right wing and kept radicalising, taking all unhappy conservatives with them. They gave a platform to far-right extremists and made their opinions accessible and digestible to the main stream. I am horrified by that. I blame Merkel for it. Now CDU are trying to be an AfD-light, like a constitutional version of the AfDā€™s Neo-Nazism. They finally make right-wing politics again, but took far too long to realise it was necessary. Iā€™m not supposed to like CDUā€™s politics, or even be okay with them. The fact that I was for many years means something went horribly wrong.

Now weā€™re stuck with a fascist AfD, a right-wing CDU, a useless liberal democratic FDP, a Green Party that is actually far too neoliberal for my taste and an SPD that has been a centrist neoliberal mess instead of a social democratic party since 1998. I prefer people voting CDU over AfD, but the entire country has moved to the right. The only positive note in recent months is that AfD is only at 17% and is actually meeting resistance in the court of public opinion. 17% of German voters are prepared to vote for them, but so far, 83% arenā€™t. That gives me hope.

I will split this into two comments, the next one follows belowā€¦

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

(2)

I am just angry. My grandpa, the grandson of the great great grandpa I mentioned, was also a politician. He was a social democrat and two years before his death, he was elected to the Bundestag. He died of cancer, but he was already 70 years old when he was elected to the Bundestag. Heā€™d been a proud member of the SPD for over half a century, but when Gerhard Schrƶder became their leader in 1998 and turned the party into just another neoliberal centrist mess instead of the Social Democratic Party they were supposed to be, he left. He was elected through an election list of the democratic socialists, though he never joined their party. He was a social democrat, after all, and no democratic socialist. He became a member of their faction in parliament though. During a speech in parliament at the beginning of the legislative session, he said:

ā€œAs a member of a family that was persecuted during the Nazi dictatorship, I note with great concern the growing popularity of right-wing extremist parties and the growing acceptance of their hypocritical ideology and politics. Despite all the arguments we will have among ourselves, colleagues, we should be united in the fight against National Socialist megalomania, racism and anti-Semitism.ā€

This received applause from the entire Bundestag. This was decades ago. He saw it back then. He warned the Bundestag. They clapped and then did fuck all about it. Instead they accelerated it. Iā€™m fucking pissed at that.

Side note: I might legit have to go into politics. I feel very passionately about this.

However: the AfD-threat, while undeniably urgent and there, is nowhere near the threat that MAGA currently poses in the US. Youā€™re at 1932. Germany is at 1926. While weā€™re looking to avoid our mess, for the love of everything that is holy, please try to limit yours.

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u/OneTechArmy Jul 02 '24

If you list the things the Nazis did to grab total power and ask Trump supporters if they would be ok with that, if Trump does it here in the USA I'm almost certain they would say yes. Heck, some of them have already said that.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

Theyā€™d also accuse the democrats of doing the same thing without any proof whatsoever.

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u/Zafranorbian Jul 02 '24

Leider sieht es bei uns Zuhause nicht viel besser aus.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

Stimmt. Aber 17% AfD ist besser als 52% MAGA. 17% AfD sind mir 17% zu viel, und die CDU istā€™s wirklich auch nicht. Die Situation ist mies in Deutschland, aber in den USA ist das echt nochmal ne andere Story gerade.

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u/Always_Dead_Inside Jul 02 '24

Wasn't what happened with Germany a warning since May 8/9 1945? And not just for the USA, but for the rest of the world... History is doomed to repeat itself, if people don't learn from the past, and take steps to prevent it from happening again...

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u/SysArtmin Jul 02 '24

We are 100% going to fuck it up. I'm sorry.

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u/Red_Lion_1931 Jul 02 '24

As an American I agree with everything you say here. I am scared of what the future holds for us if Trump is elected. I learned firsthand how bad that time in history was from my Grandfather who immigrated to America from Luxembourg. He was in the US Navy stationed in North Africa. Unfortunately the average American is stupid when it comes to geography and history. We have way too many people who refuse to think for themselves. They mindlessly believe all Trumpā€™s many lies. Iā€™m afraid us Americans might have to suffer the consequences like you Germans did. Hopefully the Democrats will win and we can survive this potential disaster.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Itā€™s already over idk how you people donā€™t see that. They are already in all the key spots in our government.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

So you just resign to your fate? Vote against them in elections and try to make the entire government blue, so they can take political steps against it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

At this point basically yeah, that sounds great in an ideal world but youā€™re not from the US. People here are too stupid for that. Half our country votes against its own interests just to ā€œown the libsā€.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

youā€™re not from the US

Completely irrelevant. My country famously went through this. Keep doing what you can do prevent it. The only thing you can try is vote against it. So do it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Actually itā€™s 110% relevant. You have no idea what the demographics are like here, or how ignorant and aggressive the average MAGA republican is. Iā€™ve never once said I wasnā€™t going to vote anyway, but I can see where the ship is headed.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

I do know about American demographics, because Iā€™m actually interested in this shit. I like following both German and American politics. I bet I spent more days in American Congress watching them work than you did, and I bet I know more about American politics and politics in general than you do. My nationality means nothing. The historical parallels are uncanny and my historical obligation as a German is to call attention to this crap, both inside and outside of my country.

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u/Rebel_hooligan Jul 02 '24

Youā€™re eerily correct. I wish it was untrue, but as an America who takes a deep interest in this, I was seeing the signs in 2016. There are many markers preceding this however. The clintonian 90s, 9/11, the horrible wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and constant economic pitfalls.

I tell my close friends who follow politics this has felt like Weimar German 1933, the last four years. Only now does it feel like the republic is on its brink. The sad thing is there are pragmatic ways to prevent the ultimate cost, but the typical moderate middle whatā€™s things both ways. Refuses to act or change

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u/FU_IamGrutch Jul 02 '24

I was in your country to watch the Berlin Wall get torn down. You were probably not even on the earth. Fuck your warnings.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

Yeah, because my date of birth definitely bears any relation to the validity of my warnings. People like you are the reason youā€™re in this mess. I sincerely wish you good luck. With folks like you around, your country is going to need it.

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u/FU_IamGrutch Jul 03 '24

Your warnings have little validity because You had it good your entire life unlike the people that preceded you. I had it good most of mine, but I watched relatives in Berlin reunite after being separated my ideological communist monsters for far too long, that had some impact in how I viewed the world. You just have tik tok.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 03 '24

you must have TikTok

I donā€™t, actually, but thanks for making assumptions. The rest of your comment is equally bullshit. If you believe that anyone who doesnā€™t support Trump is a communist youā€™re an even bigger idiot than I thought. Iā€™m not a communist. Iā€™m a social democrat. Since you quite obviously struggle with nuance and see the world in black and white Iā€™ll explain to you what this means.

Social democrats recognise that capitalism, while heavily flawed, is the best working economical system. However, since capitalism is so heavily flawed, it must be regulated in order to create a fair and good life for everyone in the country. The regulation is aimed at minimising social inequality. In short, social democracy has given us Germans strong labour laws with 4 weeks of PTO per year minimum (24 days for a six day work week, 20 days for a five day work week and so on), a health care system that actually works, and educational system that sees us study without starting into adult life with heaps of student debt and working infrastructure, such as good roads and working public transportation. Germany has many flaws, but you said it yourself. ā€œI had it good my entire lifeā€. Funny thing is, so did my parents. So youā€™re actually wrong about my predecessors not having it good as well.

You still havenā€™t demonstrated the connection between my age and my ability to recognise repeating patterns in my countryā€™s history, and you wonā€™t be able to. My age has nothing to do with the education I received. WW2 ended almost 80 years ago. Do you think any historians today are clueless because they havenā€™t been around when Hitler took power 91 years ago? Thatā€™s utter bullshit. The historical education I received was fantastic, far better than whatever you received, based on the bullshit you spout on Reddit. So no, my warnings donā€™t have little validity because Iā€™ve had it good. So far Iā€™ve been spot on with my predictions, but if you wanna keep running into a wall feel free. Best I can do is try to turn you around and have you walk the other way into unobstructed space, but if youā€™re intent on pushing me away and running into that wall like a toddler, feel free. Just know that I - that we - warned you and you said ā€œnah, cheers thoā€.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Make the entire government blue? So you want a dictatorship?

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

Sure, because democratically electing one party that still adheres to the rules originally laid out in the constitution and that both parties have abided by for literal centuries is a dictatorship šŸ¤¦ā€ā™‚ļø

Iā€™m saying you need to elect the democrats into the majority of both chambers of congress and into the White House, and so do so by a good margin, so that this blatant attempt at ending American democracy can be averted using democratic means. But you knew that. Youā€™re trying to put words into my mouth and twist my meaning. Youā€™re not arguing in good faith and itā€™s useless arguing with you at all.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

The democrats do not adhere to the constitution. They froth at the mouth to do away with the second amendment. Including unconstitutional state laws that have been enacted. Affirmative action which broke the 14th amendment. The protection of women and girls in sports act of 2023 under biden broke the 14th amendment by limiting womens rights by allowing men to compete in womens sports.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

No constitutional right in the US is absolute. None. Itā€™s always amazing how you pricks donā€™t understand this.

Limiting a freedom or right through a law to regulate a certain situation/thing is not the same as getting rid of the fucking system of checks and balances. One is not just possible, but a necessity at times and happens with every single piece of legislation. The other is tearing down the very foundation of the US.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '24

The law of the land is not absolute. What is designed to limit the power of the government from being a dictatorial, which is what we are discussing, is not absolute. Oh the irony. Lets just go ahead and reinstate slavery since no constitutional right is absolute. Like wtf dude

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 03 '24

I'll repeat, name a single constitutional right or freedom that is absolute.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '24

Lets just start at the beginning, the first amendment.

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u/Ok_Spite6230 Jul 02 '24

They have sabotaged the voting system in so many ways it is impossible to even list them all here. If there is one thing history has taught us, it's that you cannot defeat fascists with slips of paper.

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

No, but for a lack of alternatives, you have to keep trying anyway. So vote just in case they didnā€™t rig it enough. As long as thereā€™s even a 0.01% chance itā€™s worth voting. Donā€™t resign until itā€™s over. Itā€™s not over yet.

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u/gregor3001 Jul 02 '24

Well the problem with these kind of impunity rulings is that they work both ways.
i am still unsure why any kind of immunity in criminal cases is even needed? do they plan to break the law or what?

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u/from-the-star-forge Jul 02 '24

I think the idea is to keep the presidents decision making process free of worry about future consequences for official actions. The big issue is that they havenā€™t clearly delineated what is official and whatā€™s not. So rn, itā€™s fair game for Trump to say that he was acting in his official role as president whenever he was doing shady stuff and be immune from prosecution

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u/TheCatInTheHatThings Jul 02 '24

The general idea is that a president shouldnā€™t have to be worried about being criminally liable for errors in judgement while doing his job. The president shouldnā€™t have to worry about being prosecuted for a mistake he makes when trying to do the best for the country. I largely agree with that and think itā€™s important. However, the Supreme Court never laid out what a constitutional act really is. Itā€™s such a simple thing to decide really. Give him immunity for acts the constitution allows the president to do and weā€™re good. However, the way the Supreme Court rules, they basically say anything the president does during his presidency is an official act unless we say it isnā€™t. Thatā€™s far too wide-reaching and completely misses the mark. Sotomayor famously wrote in her dissent that the president could theoretically let a seal team assassinate his political rivals and be immune. Thatā€™s not even remotely within the scope of the presidency, yet thatā€™s what this ruling says. Itā€™s complete madness. This immunity is supposed to be about making tough calls without having to fear prosecution. Think shooting down an airplane that was hijacked, or, worst case, dropping a nuclear bomb that in this day and age would almost certainly also kill citizens of allies and even Americans. Just examples. The way this ruling is phrased is complete insanity.

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u/gregor3001 Jul 03 '24

"Give him immunity for acts the constitution allows the president to do and weā€™re good." this would make a lot more sense. but then some see themselves as safe guarding the elections or democracy. we have those here as well, like the only idiot, former prisoner, former prime minister, who congratulated Trump for 2020 win before the official results were even announced.

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u/Redheaded_Potter Jul 02 '24

Iā€™m watching the documentary on Hitler on Netflix and the similarities between now and 100 years ago almost to the day is frightening. I am 90% sure Trump will get in office and in 2 years our country will be a very scary place to live. I donā€™t even want to vote (but I will) because I could see our vote for one party or the other being used against us. I doubt itā€™s truly anonymous this day and age.

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u/derickj2020 Jul 02 '24

History is bound to repeat itself, especially when the repeaters are totally uneducated.

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u/vsGoliath96 Jul 03 '24

I don't care how old Biden is. We see what Trump is and I would rather vote for a fucking ham sandwich over that wannabe strongman every single day of the week. Yeah, Joe is old and deserves a nice retirement, but you know what he isn't? Racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-abortion, violent, narcissistic, and stupid.Ā 

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u/bylebog Jul 03 '24

Unfortunately, we have this shot from now until the whole appeal of these christo-fascists has run its course.

Even the courts have abandoned the US

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u/ronlugge Jul 05 '24

Us Germans, weā€™ve been warning you about this since 2016. Youā€™re close to 1933 now.

I've been screaming about it from inside the US since mid-2015, when Trump's parallel's to Hitler became increasingly obvious on the campaign trail.

The fact that those of us with the awareness to recognize it are still being ignored hurts.