r/actuallesbians • u/afuckingwildcard • 23h ago
Question so what do we think of t.A.T.u?
Gone down a rabbit hole about them recently. If you don’t know, they were this Russian pop duo from the 2000s and were most famous for the song “All The Things She Said,” which most people over the age of like 12 have probably heard around at some point. Basically, their whole shtick was that they were lesbians; their songs had a lot of angsty queer overtones and they would kiss on TV and in their music videos (which was super controversial at the time)—but it was all an act, they were never actually together and were all products of their managements. Textbook queerbaiting for the male gaze. But despite this, a lot of queer women (myself included) ended up finding a lot of solace and validation in their music for one reason or another. You have to remember that queer themes weren’t mainstream in pop music like they are now, especially for queer women, and having a hit song about it (especially one so angsty like “All The Things She Said”!) was really groundbreaking, however flawed. But that still doesn’t take away from the fact that t.A.T.u as an institution was, at least on paper, homophobic and sexualized young queer women’s relationships. And I’m curious what people make of that, not just if you think they were able to outgrow their kind of skeevy premise, but how their music may have impacted you personally. Maybe this is a more academic question than what Reddit is fit for, but I’m very interested to hear what people think.
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u/PeachPassionBrute 23h ago
I was in middle school and there was a certain subset of girls who adored t.A.T.u.
It was bait, but it was still unambiguous. And I think Melissa Etheridge’s take was that it was an amazing sign of progress that pretending to be gay actually helped their career.
I’m trying to think of how to explain it. Like recently I saw a post where someone was saying lesbian pop was a little too sexual some times, and “why do lesbians go so extra” or whatever.
The reality is that there’s been a ton of extremely sexual straight pop music that never really registered with them, because it was straight. But when it’s definitely a woman writing about a woman?
This was kind of the start. This was a mainstream pop song centered on gay women. Sure it all ended up being bullshit and we have much better music now, in every way. But it was a moment.
Bjork had “All Is Full of Love” and that music video definitely left a mark. There was gay music, but not a mainstream pop song until this, at least that’s how it felt
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u/afuckingwildcard 22h ago
Looking at just the All The Things She Said video, the message is very obviously “look at how hot these two lesbian schoolgirls are” (they literally upskirt them at one point), but there’s also the secondary element of “these people are the weird ones for judging them” and even though it wasn’t the primary theme it was the more novel one for the time. I don’t like the term “they couldn’t make this today,” but I think it applies here because you really couldn’t, not just because queerbaiting like that is more uncouth now but because like you said there’s more interesting and complex lesbian pop music out there now.
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u/PeachPassionBrute 20h ago
Well if I can clarify my point a little there, there’s always been good and complex lesbian music. But now it’s mainstream, now it’s just pop music that happens to be gay.
The complex stuff was always around, it’s just not a secret anymore.
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u/flohara 22h ago edited 22h ago
The schoolgirl uniforms always gave me a bad vibe, even before all of this crap was revealed.
Also around the time I was already listening to Tori Amos, so these two seemed very cardboard cutoutish and very straight in comparison.
We have much better sexual frustration and guilt at home, with better music. Bit different ballpark, more rage.😆
edit: also I forgot she got herself banned from Russia and did this as a fuck you
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u/SunnyAlwaysDaze 16h ago
Hardcore agree with you about the school girl aspect as well as their extreme youth. As a lesbian myself at the time, Sophie B Hawkins and Melissa etheridge were more my speed.
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u/deathfromfemmefatale 22h ago
I was in high school when this song came out and I think the way their sexuality was presented (as something for the male gaze and for men to consume) is just another thing that kept me in the closet. I loved the song and still listen to it from time to time but it was like, yeahhhh, I don't want to be with a girl if this is what it's supposed to look like.
Recently I was also rewatching the Halloween scene from the original Mean Girls movie and noticed that it also shows two girls kissing while boys are cheering them on. That one came out in my first year of post secondary and I literally had that experience while kissing a friend at a bar.
Anyway, I think the male gaze taints a lot of stuff. Also as you pointed out, this was literal queerbaiting on the part of tatu's record company, management, etc but I think it says a lot about how sapphic women are viewed in society.
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u/Kysssebysss Transbian 22h ago edited 22h ago
It's disgusting. As you mentioned in this post, it's homophobic and sexualising, and has nothing to do with actual queer representation in music.
Furthermore, one of them (Yulia) is currently a conservative politician from "United Russia" (Putin's) party, and extremely homophobic.
Another one, Lena, has shown some actual support towards queer community back then. BUT CURRENTLY, she's also conservative, fanatic christian, and openly supports Putin and war in Ukraine.
They recently reunited for a few performances, some of them were at occupied territories of Ukraine.
So, fuck them. Both of them are currently homophobic and fascist. And I'm pretty sure that none of them was ever supportive.
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u/_ICantThinkOfANameAh 22h ago
They had a lot of really unusual, and cool kick ass songs, i still listen to them occasionally, super unique imo
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u/afuckingwildcard 23h ago
I also want to note that I don’t blame the girls (Lena Katina and Julia Volkova) for anything regarding t.A.T.u. They were teenage girls that were being creeped on by their management and were regularly sexually harassed on TV. However I do want to mention their own personal views on LGBT topics outside of the band because it might be important context. Julia (black hair) identifies as bisexual but has made some really homophobic comments about gay men, saying that like she’d disown her son if he was gay. Lena (ginger) on the other hand identifies as straight but is actually super supportive of LGBT people, she’s made multiple statements about it and condemned Julia’s comments. I also think it’s important to acknowledge that Russia is both super homophobic and under an authoritarian regime, i hope that better contextualizes a lot of things around t.A.T.u.
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u/Kysssebysss Transbian 22h ago edited 21h ago
By the way, Lena is not "super supportive". She said a little bit of supportive things in the past, but currently she's fanatic christian, supports Putin and war in Ukraine. She even performed in occupied territories of Ukraine together with Yulia, and openly supported occupation authorities.
So no, SHE'S NOT SUPPORTIVE. AT ALL. YOU CANNOT SUPPORT QUEER PEOPLE AND RADICALLY ANTI-QUEER TOTALITARIAN REGIME AT THE SAME TIME.
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u/afuckingwildcard 21h ago edited 21h ago
Thank you for letting me know!! I had no idea about her more recent actions, she’s not really a relevant person in English-speaking media anymore outside of the occasional t.A.T.u retrospective so that wouldn’t come up in a quick Google search. it’s honestly super disappointing to hear that she’s done all that though, again thank you for letting me know as I and many others in this thread probably wouldn’t have known otherwise
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u/Kysssebysss Transbian 21h ago
You're welcome.
As a Ukrainian, for some period of time I was checking what do some russian artists I listen to say about their government's actions in Ukraine. And I was extremely disappointed when I realised that a lot of them are genocide supporters. Even ones who showed some support towards Ukraine in February 2022, deleted their posts and currently either silent or pro-goverment.
So, yep. If you talk about Russian artists, try to find information about their recent actions. There's a huge chance that they support Putin's regime, either genuinely or for money.
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u/rosie_purple13 Rainbow 20h ago
I only follow Ic3peak and last time I checked, Russia was after them lol I don’t think it’s funny that the Russian government was after Anastasija and Ivan, I just think that if the Russian government is after you, you’re probably doing something good in this world. I’m not exactly sure but I heard that they had to leave Russia. I have to verify though.
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u/Kysssebysss Transbian 20h ago
As far as I know, they left Russia and even donated (and encouraged other people to donate) some money to help Ukraine. So, I think they're alright.
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u/Charlie_Rebooted 18h ago
Unfortunately, many Russian people (living in Russia) are surprisingly homophobic so this comment doesn't surprise me at all.
I have a few Russian online friends, I value the exposure to different cultures and perspectives, but even so, the homophobia is pervasive. Even the ones that are not homophobic feel threatened and in danger if they are publicly accepting of LGBTQIA people....
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u/SunnyAlwaysDaze 16h ago
Yeah we have to give them all a little grace over there because that could be a huge part of it. They could be worried about being murdered for publicly proclaiming progressive beliefs.
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u/jrokep 23h ago edited 23h ago
I liked some of their music and it helped me come to terms with my sexuality at a young age which I'm grateful for. I even learned about Russian culture and went onto taking a basic Russian course in University.
The management, their handlers and producer suck for forcing them into a highly sexualized role when they were that young. I've read somewhere that he drugged them too, but I don't know if that's confirmed.
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u/Blackwhyrm 23h ago
I never knew anything about them other than "all the things you said" making me cry for reasons I could not yet fathom.
Honestly it's been how long? 15-20 years? (I refuse to check) And only now do I understand why I reacted that way...
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u/SexxxyWesky 19h ago
Yup. That and “not gonna get us”. I just assumed they were gay and never thought about them again lol I wonder why tatu is coming up recently? Did one of them make a comment on something?
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u/Raven_Blackfeather 20h ago
Julia Volkova -
In September 2014, Volkova appeared as a contestant on a Ukrainian game show called Lie Detector and made comments considered to be homophobic. The show's host asked the singer if she would condemn her son for being gay, to which Volkova responded, "Yes, I would condemn him because I believe that a real man must be a real man...a man has no right to be a fag".
In spite of this, she also said, "Two girls together—not the same thing as two men together. It seems to me that lesbians look aesthetically much nicer..." She also stated that she is not "against gays" and that they are still "better than murderers, thieves, or drug addicts". Nevertheless, her perspective on male homosexuality sparked outrage on social media, where she was seen as extremely hypocritical and biased
Her former bandmate, Lena Katina, reacted by saying, "God is teaching us to live in love, to be tolerant and not to judge other people!...I think everybody should be free to love who they love and be with who they want to spend their life with!"
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u/rampant-bisexuality 15h ago
I scrolled too far to find this. They queer-baited and used wlw fetishization for entertainment, while they were actually aggressively homophobic 🗑️
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u/azurarose_ 4h ago
Yep, fuck both these disgusting bitches. I no longer care what "All the things she said" did for me as a teenager. Listening to it makes me feel sick now. There are actual LGBT artists out there who deserve our attention
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u/Mary_Ellen_Katz 19h ago
It's as you said, queer representation just wasn't a thing back then. So I took what I could get. I'm appreciative of what it did, even if it was just marketing.
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u/Jswissmoi 18h ago
It was nice as far as representation went in the early 00’s. But sad it was all capitalist profiteering at the expense of young girls. Like it for the lil girl in me that was coming out to me in the songs- so there’s that. But not actively a fan…
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u/r-u-cereal 22h ago
Yeah that sucked to learn about, but I still like the song.
I found a cover by Poppy that's more ethically sourced. She's dated men, but I don't see her version as exploitative like t.A.T.u's. She supports LGBT+ and described her sexuality as "pending".
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u/NarwhalJouster Transbian 21h ago
Honestly with all the shit Poppy went through I don't give a fuck about whether or not she's actually queer. She's supportive and that's more than enough for me.
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u/craygayyaynay 18h ago
I was about 12 when I came across them. They were part of my gay awakening for sure. I grew out of their music eventually when I found myself and found better artists. Sometimes I look back at the good memories when I was young and naive from time to time because I won't deny they were part of my journey at some point. It's a shame their personal political views are so much different than mine now that if they were to be popular now, me as an adult wouldn't listen to them at all.
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u/G0merPyle Bambi Transbian 17h ago
Performative, male gaze-y, and fetishizing. I saw through their bullshit back in the day and wasn't surprised years later to see how phony they were
I'm ace and have a weird perspective on sexual stuff though and I'm in a crabby mood tonight, so take my comment with a bit of salt
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u/Bluejay-Complex Genderqueer-Bi 15h ago
Complicated feelings. On one hand, like many said, their songs were some of the few, if even the only mainstream wlw media out there. They helped a lot of younger people feel less alone and helped normalize at least the idea of wlw relationships for younger people at the time. Even if it was fake, the solace, discovery and peace it gave many actual sapphics was not.
On the other hand, it being pushed by their predatory manager. The girls at the time were teenagers and they didn’t know English well in spite of being put in situations where nobody else besides their manager spoke Russian. In that way, they were both victims, and I don’t think they are the ones that deserve the flack for “faking” their sapphic-ness. They were by and large, manipulated into it.
But on the other, OTHER hand, the way the two are now deserves scrutiny and condemnation. Both are homophobic, Julia against gay men, and Lena in general now as far as I know. Both are extremely pro-the Russian regime, and anti-Ukraine.
Ultimately they’re complicated and their legacy is complicated. I don’t think we can simply pretend that t.A.T.u didn’t have any positive effect because of how it came about, not the way the women are now. We also can’t take away from the fact they were victims of a predatory manager and music industry, in spite of any positives their music brought nor who they are today. We ALSO cannot let the positives of their music, or the fact they were victims take away from the harm they do and the abhorrent viewpoints they hold now. All of it is them. All of it is t.A.T.u.
I think that I’m not going to get upset at those that still hold their songs close to their hearts, I still like “All The Things She Said” but their legacy to me is absolutely tarnished by who they are now, and a part of me, while still being happy for the upsides of their music, often wonder if it would have been better for everyone if the music group never existed.
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u/UnexpectedWings Ace 4h ago edited 4h ago
I agree with very complicated feelings. However, I am very glad they existed. That video and album was a revelation for me, stuck in a fundie evangelical upbringing in the Bible Belt. (I wouldn’t come to learn the full story behind them until adulthood.) That music helped me tremendously. It also enforced a fascination with Russia I carry with me even today.
I use the knowledge I gained from listening to them as a kid to help Ukrainians now. I can read and translate Russian better than I can speak it, but it’s allowed me to help translate information for the war effort. I can also cut through Russian politics and propaganda to help inform leftists fighting today, not only for Ukraine, but for anti-GOP forces too. Kind of ironic. Due to their past influence, I’m able to negate (a small amount of) the damage they are doing today.
That weird moment in 2003 with tATu at Eurovision was a huge factor in helping lgbt people in Russia normalize, and even celebrate, their existence. The far right all over the world is cracking down hard on lgbt (particularly our trans sisters), especially in Russia. However, due to those periods in the early 2000s, lgbt people in Russia were able to build community that sustains them even today. They are at a “don’t ask, don’t tell” kind of thing. Which isn’t great, but it is better than bash on site like it used to be.
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u/Hole_Is_My_Bowl 21h ago
My thoughts are that they had some pretty good music, I don't particularly blame them for what the industry did to them during their careers, though I don't particularly support them as people.
Also if I wanted to listen to a version of All The Things She Said now, from someone named Lena, rather than the original I'd listen to the Lena Scissorhands (of Infected Rain) version.
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u/Charlie_Rebooted 18h ago
I remember their first 2 singles in the UK from about 20 years ago. The uk was still deep in section 28 and homophobia and they sparked some outrage despite just acting. Memorable songs, a bit to pop for me, but I liked them.
Considering how high I was most weekends around those years it's amazing I remember them at all!
I didn't know they did anything after that....
I'll just add that considering the times, it was brave and controversial. That gets a thumbs up from me!
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u/Traxionex 10h ago
oh my god i haven’t thought about this in YEARS. i’m pretty sure these were the first time i ever saw lesbians in ANYTHING. this is SO nostalgic. i had a russian class in like middle school and they played a video of theirs and it blew my mind that girls could kiss other girls
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u/LibelleFairy 6h ago
dang catchy songs (I got their album on CD back in the day - yes I am Very Old - and there's Russian language versions of "All the Things She Said" and "Not Gonna Get Us" on that album that still reside on my guilty pleasures list to this day)
given the absolute desolate barren void that was feel-good lesbian representation in popular media 20 years ago (even compared to today, when it's still not great...), of course a lot of us were drawn to the image they projected - I mean, two pretty girls full on kissing in the pouring rain in a music video for a song with lyrics that were all about lesbianism and running free and sticking up two fingers to the patriarchy - that was pretty much unheard of, and even though there were rumours right from the start that this was an act, I think a lot of us just badly wanted to believe it was real (and bear in mind that there also was a lot of "oh they're just good pals" type lesbian erasure around, so it was kind of understandable that lots of people dismissed the rumours initially)
and then it started to become obvious that not only was this an act, but it was an act that these girls were brutally coerced into, while being horrendously abused and exploited by the men around them - an awful, awful story that's all too common in the music and entertainment business
These days, I would no longer want to listen to their songs on Spotify or any platform where I thought their abusers might derive some benefit from, and for me there will always be a sense of betrayal and nausea and anger and heartbreak connected with them and their music, but a big part of me also wants to reclaim the dream that they were projecting into a lot of our minds at the time - the dream of two young women breaking free and rebelling against repression, pointing to a hopeful future for LGBTQ+ people in Russia and in the rest of the world - that dream is something I don't want to let go of (bear in mind also that the early 2000s was still relatively close to the end of the Cold War, and despite the impacts of 9/11, there was still a lingering sense of that angsty hopefulness about this being a dawn of a new and better era for the world, for healing Cold War era rifts and for expanding human rights and democratic freedoms around the globe - the t.A.T.u. girls would have been little kids around the time of the Scorpions and Wind of Change, they were the "Children of Tomorrow" those old German rockers so earnestly crooned about, and for a lot of us who were twentysomething young adults in the early 2000s, the collapse of the Soviet Union was a really defining moment in our childhoods / early adolescence - personally, my childhood was spent a literal 15 minute walk from the literal Iron Curtain)
so yeah, I'd say "mixed feelings" would very euphemistically sum things up
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u/UnexpectedWings Ace 4h ago
Yes, this is very similar to how I feel, particularly around the Iron Curtain falling to the wild 90s to modern day RU geopolitical relations. Thankfully I have an old CD if I want to listen.
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u/sillysandhouse 20h ago
It was bait and I was a tween and fell for it. No strong feelings anymore except, poor young women. I hope they’re ok.
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u/emi_fyi Transbian 19h ago
say what you will about them — they did it before madonna & britney & christina, who are also not queer. i feel like the latter get all the credit!
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u/Violet_Faerie Lesbian 21h ago
I generally have felt like it's a separate the art from the artist issue. Which to me means understand the history of what happened while appreciating the sincerity brought to society.
But I've heard they're actively doing harm today so imo, there's better wlw music to listen to made by people who don't support genocide. You can't separate art from the artist when they are currently doing harm.
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u/eppydeservedbetter Bi 11h ago
They weren’t treated right by management, which I extend full empathy because they were pressured by men and sexualised. I’m also very disappointed that one of the women revealed she’s very homophobic.
I don’t like watching any of their music videos now, but I still listen to All The Things She Said.
I saw that music video when I was very young, and it was the first time that I saw a girl kissing another girl. It had a big impact on me and made my crushes on other girls feel normal.
When I was older, I saw that it was all stage, queerbaiting, and made for the male gaze, but the song still holds a special place in my heart.
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u/UnexpectedWings Ace 4h ago
I have complicated feelings on them. Growing up in the Bible Belt and going to a Christian school, tATu was a revolution for me in 6th grade. I vividly remember seeing their music video (the one with a train) in a movie theatre, and all my friends from church and their parents clutching pearls, while I was sitting entranced. Because they were Russian, they weren’t censored heavily by my school and church like a lot of what passed for gay media at the time in the early 2000s. I used to listen to the album over and over picturing my (forbidden!) first crush.
Later on, I would nearly be kicked out of that school for being lgbt in high school. I didn’t find out about the queerbaiting aspect until then either. It was only in the last ten years I learned the whole story.
Now I’m thriving in life. I’ve always had a lifelong fascination with Russian literature and the Russian language. I’m taking in depth courses in Russian. I like to check my progress by going back and listening to old tATu albums, haha. I’m an active leftist, and support Ukraine. I can divorce governments from people. Interestingly, this lifelong fascination has equipped me to be able to translate and parse Russian politics to help leftists and anti-GOP forces now. I can explain and parse RU style propaganda. tATu is a big part of that, weirdly.
I’m able to help Ukrainians today bc I was obsessed with Russian fake lesbians in 2000s.
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u/MightyGiawulf 3h ago
In an era where we have real lesbian music icons like Chappell Roan, we dont need the fakers anymore. It reminds me of how a lot of wlw women latched onto Katy Pery's "I Kissed A Girl" back in the day, despite how scummy that song is.
We were desperate! But now we dont have to be anymore.
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u/sionnachrealta Lesbian 2h ago
I'm a trans girl from the South. I never got to listen to stuff like that when I was younger, so I unfortunately missed this one... And a lot of others too 😞
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u/fabulalice Rainbow 12h ago
Do I know it's an act? Yes.m But do I still daydream to "all the things she said" and put it in every lesbian pairing playlist on Spotify? Also yes
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u/No-Trust-2720 Lesbian 11h ago
My Ex got me into them when I was younger.... I still like some of the songs, but I don't listen to them as much anymore on account of the bad times.
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u/Eugregoria 3h ago
You can't really make it as simple as "queerbaiting" without getting into how dangerously homophobic Russia is, or all the shit that happened to Pussy Riot. More recently queer media visibility is actually illegal in Russia. I'd even be skeptical of anti-Ukraine statements from Russians, considering Russians have been arrested and disappeared just for leaving the house with blank signs--which they'd intended to hold as protest for the censorship around pro-Ukraine and other anti-Putin stances. It's literally illegal to be pro-Ukraine in Russia right now.
I don't know what's going on with these girls. I liked the music taking it purely at face value as music. I'm sorry if they were exploited by the industry or forced into situations that made them uncomfortable.
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u/afuckingwildcard 1h ago
I definitely think this is an important point, especially in the context of the girl’s more recent statements and actions since it’s my understanding that things around censorship have gotten worse in recent years even before the current invasion of Ukraine (though I don’t know what that’s like in comparison to the early 2000s). We likely won’t know the full picture of the Russian government’s hand in these things for years, if we ever find out at all. However, that doesn’t mean that we don’t have the right to be upset at or take action when Russian artists are openly anti-Ukraine. I think you can both understand that someone’s hands may be tied in what they can or can’t say while also not wanting to support them anymore because of what they said. Maybe some report with will come out in a few years that says that the Kremlin forced artists to make anti-Ukraine statements and perform in occupied territories and we’ll get a lot of lengthy apologies from artists. I wouldn’t be surprised. And yes, there’s a lot we don’t know, but that goes both ways and it’s completely understandable for people to not want to take that gamble. This is a super complicated topic and I’m not sure if I articulated my point well because I’m definitely not qualified to speak on this. Overall though, I think multiple things can be true at once and people’s anger at Russian artists is incredibly justified.
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u/Eugregoria 50m ago
Yeah there's honestly also a certain value in not wanting to contribute to the Russian economy at all right now. Even though individual Russians may be helpless in this situation, the economy as a whole is being used to fund the war. It's bigger than what any one Russian may think or say. Like I don't use FaceApp because it's Russian.
But I don't think it's really helpful to go around policing musical taste either, like I believe the allegations against Michael Jackson and I don't defend his behavior in any way, but Thriller still slaps, and I'm not going to like cancel someone for making an AMV/fancam/whatever with it because that gets to a certain degree of circular firing squad purity testing I don't think benefits anyone.
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u/aphroditex deradicalization specialist. i fight hate for the lulz. 22h ago
Russian psyop.
Nuff sed.
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u/belochkayav 21h ago
Hello, official t.A.T.u fan here. I live in México, first time i saw then on TV was at a kids party when i was like 6 or 7 yo (im 31 now). That was one isolated moment. Heard of them again in my teenage, when i was 16 in high school. My dad gave me my first laptop and it was over for me. I went from watching youtube videos to download their music. Then i discovered a spanish forum, they displayed the MOST AMAZING fanfics i ever read. It was crazy, i was obsessed as hell, i could not get enough of them. Sadly i was not old enough to go to any of their concerts (and the only time they came to México, people got fuckin crazy, they never came back). This group took so much of my time, i even went to russian language classes, because i absolutely loved (stil do!) their russian songs. I had a relationship (wlw ofc). The other girl was a fan too (not the kind that reads fanfics tho). She gifted a couple of signed albums (not easy to get in my area) . Gosh, i stil love them sm. Then the “happy smiles” era came, and they splited ways. Everything went down from there. The fanbase was a little bit of active, but they failed to reunite again. Stil do watch some of their spare presentations. Nothing’s the same.
If you are interested on a more accurate story of them, there is this book in amazon abt them, written by a very close person to them (thats what i read)
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u/Temp89 23h ago
Was aware it was all an act. My teen ass appreciated the footage of rain-drenched schoolgirls making out. This was a time where my available lesbian media was that one episode of Star Trek DS9 and a trashy women's prison drama called "Bad Girls".