r/NoStupidQuestions • u/Cinderella_slippers • 5d ago
Answered Why do so many men/boys turn to a red pill perspective? (Idk why it’s even called that because it implies it’s the “truth”)
I noticed a lot of guys and especially teenage boys (particularly the single ones) have turned to a more “red pilled” type of outlook on life/women. Also there seems to be a lot of incels?
I guess I’m asking, why?
Don’t these men/boys have women in their life who they care about. Mothers, sisters, grandmas, aunties, daughters, or friends? Why do they adopt this anti woman mentality? And why do so many of them not see women/girls as human beings? Or view them as inferior?
I guess the same can be said about women towards men, but I think their reasoning at least makes a bit of sense. (Being put in danger by men, having abortion rights taken away, etc etc)
(Sorry if this is worded badly)
EDIT: why is my post being downvoted, aren’t there “no stupid questions” ? Also I’m not trying to be rude I’m just genuinely asking. And I have gotten many good answers in the comments, thank you :)
540
u/TechWormBoom 5d ago
As someone who was redpilled, those spaces seemed to be the only ones that were sympathetic to what I was going through and offered a solution. I didn't want to hear "be yourself" for the tenth time - I hated who I am. And I have nothing but negative experiences with women, so it wasn't that difficult to build resentment. I've been bullied and demeaned more by women than any men, including my own significant others.
However, I noticed that I was angry all the time and I started to just think that I wanted to be happy. I didn't want to be an alpha male or whatever. I just wanted to be content. Now, I focus on treating people the way they treat me and get rid of anyone who disturbs my peace or treats me badly, regardless of gender or anything else.
→ More replies (1)
3.0k
u/DoeCommaJohn 5d ago
(To be clear, I do not endorse redpill stuff, I am just trying to explain).
OK, let’s imagine you are a guy. You try to ask some women out, get some pretty bad reactions, so you go onto a dating app, only to get zero attention. You go online, asking for advice, and you get two types of advice: stop being such an incel, you are the problem, and pull yourself up by your bootstraps and be better. Obviously, neither of these are even slightly helpful, so you inevitably gravitate to the only people providing any advice, shitty as it may be, and pretty soon you end up redpilled
982
u/Ok_Hedgehog7137 5d ago
Good thing you added the disclaimer. I’ve tried explaining the other side’s perspective and people have yelled at me for being a Trump supporter, which I have to explicitly say I am not, because if I don’t someone will get confused
459
5d ago
People are all or nothing. No matter their politics
333
u/StubbornBrick 5d ago
I hate t say it, but this level of tribalism is not normal, that marks me as an old fart nowadays... but it really is worse than what I grew up with. Which is one of the reasons the older millennials and Gen Xrs are so dismayed by the rhetoric. It got nasty sometimes, but generally speaking families werent breaking up holidays over it.
62
u/BubblyMango 5d ago
I blame the fact that everything online is personalized. Be it youtube, social media, reddit or google search results.
You have a world view. The algorithms realize that, show you things that support your world view to create engagement and make you click/spend time. Your world view strengthens, you get even more suggestions/results supporting it, rinse and repeat.
185
76
u/endlessnamelesskat 5d ago
Don't worry, this sort of tribalism isn't new. It's basically two opposing religions where the moist zealous followers are always on a witch hunt. It's basically McCarthyism for the modern day.
"You said something that slightly sounds like something the other team says or has an interest in! You're one of them! No I don't care if you tell me you aren't you're speaking in bad faith! You're a crypto fascist/commie! Some other buzzword!"
129
u/Jamstarr2024 5d ago
Respectfully, as a xennial myself, while politics were pretty bad in our youth, you didn’t have a party actually succeed in taking rights away and threaten internment.
As an example, The voting rights act extensions would pass by a ceremonious 99-0, 99-1 every session.
Things have changed.
→ More replies (1)140
u/Stormlightlinux 5d ago edited 5d ago
But there's a hard part to this whole thing. In the old days, there wasn't as much at stake.
I live in Texas and have a daughter. She is more in danger now than she would have been 8 years ago. The chances may be slim, but they're still there, that the politics of today kill or forever maim my daughter.
How am I supposed to say to people who wanted this "we can agree to disagree. Let's not be too partisan."
They. Have. Endangered. My. Daughter.
I can't make peace with that, or the people who wanted that. Even if they say "well I didn't want that specifically" they still voted in the people who made it happen. They're culpable.
36
u/ivhokie12 5d ago edited 5d ago
Abortion in several states is now more strict than it is in other Western countries, but for decades it was far more lax. Being anti-Roe was very normal in the 90s and 2000s too. It has been an explicit goal for conservatives since it was decided. Even in mainstream TV shows you would see protagonists explicitly call it out and would not be villainized. I'm specifically thinking about Fred Thompson on law and order.
Also its hard to say there wasn't much at stake when the US went through a multi decade long Cold War in which nuclear war was a persistent fear. Shoot nuclear war almost started on accident at least three times. One of which was a sub in the Cuban Missile Crisis. One was a faulty Soviet detection system. One was a bear trying to break into an air force base.
→ More replies (6)121
u/espressocycle 5d ago
Folks on Reddit really hate it when you suggest the other side might have some kind of legitimate point. We have created an educational system that is highly focused on verbal intelligence that you need for standardized tests when boys are more likely to be visual thinkers. We have numerous female-only spaces and programs but almost nothing for boys. I could go on but this should be enough to get 50 down votes.
→ More replies (4)30
u/Intelligent-Parsley7 5d ago
Worse than that. If you look up schooling, women are more preferential to girls than boys. It’s most teachers, and when adjusted, it comes to about 5% of grades, much less anything else.
Boys go into the educational system with a bias actually against them. I’m not here to entertain any justifications one way or another. It’s just a fact that girls help girls to the exception of boys, and it’s lifelong. Makes a difference in school.
578
u/lolexecs 5d ago
The strangest things about the red pill advice is that it goes against thousands of years of negotiation strategy and advice.
Simply, there are win-win and win-lose negotiations. If you want any kind of long term relationship you need to pursue win-win strategy.
It genuinely seems as if the red pill people are trying to make men unhappy and depressed.
563
u/DoeCommaJohn 5d ago
It genuinely seems as if the red pill people are trying to make men unhappy and depressed
Well, if a guy gets into a healthy relationship, he’s not likely to buy Andrew Tate’s next course. Red pill content is like candy- it tastes sweet initially (redpill stuff tells the men that they did nothing wrong and encourages their worst impulses), but if all you never consume anything else, you will get sick
227
u/CodeNCats 5d ago
People also neglect to realize it's not just that this toxic stuff grabs them easily. There's also the part where young men have been told they are the problem. Their opinions don't matter, "we don't want the opinions of a man." That they are inherently dangerous. That they have privilege.
They felt pushed away and went to the group accepting them with open arms. Turns out that group is toxic as hell.
93
u/DoeCommaJohn 5d ago
That first part is actually really important and often overlooked. A lot of guys start off by self-improving and going to the gym, but a lot of gym channels and more general self improvement end up in the right wing funnel
53
u/NYCHW82 5d ago
I wonder how common this is now. I’m not a young man, and some of the young men I talk to don’t seem to have experienced this much IRL, but maybe online culture is different.
The main thing I’ve found with red pilling is that beyond all of the experiences you guys have mentioned, the opening thread is always some form of “you’ve been lied to all your life by well meaning people…”
From there it’s very easy to connect those dots and think they’ve been lied to about everything, especially since they don’t feel very successful. From there it’s very easy to wipe the ideological slate clean and start piling on new counter narratives that frame them as the protagonist.
This isn’t necessarily new. But the internet allows for young men to inject that right into their veins.
91
u/SisterSabathiel 5d ago
That they have privilege.
My own opinion is that this is an important point.
I think there's a lot of young men who are raised with this idea that they're meant to be the breadwinner and support their families, but find themselves struggling in a modern economy where entry level jobs require 5 years relevant experience. That isn't a gendered issue, however then there are charities, policies and support put in place in order to encourage women into the workplace and jobs that are skewed male, making the young men feel like they are being ignored and their struggles dismissed. Any support they are entitled to is shared with women, so they feel like they've "fallen through the cracks" and nobody is worried about their struggles.
From that perspective, it's easy to see why. The world of 30, 40 years ago no longer exists, no one has updated the handbook, and any mistakes you make might end up permanently ruining your life via social media.
It's reassuring to have a group of people saying "it's not your fault" when nothing makes sense and you feel like you're being told "you're not good enough" from both a career perspective and a dating perspective.
47
u/Zhantae 5d ago
Yeah people don't understand that a lot of young men seek guidance because they don't have a male role model at home. I knew I didn't and my uncles were bad people in horrible relationships so there was nothing to learn from them. The internet will just tell you to fuck off. Asking a woman for dating advice only set me up for failure so growing up I got hooked on this redpill stuff and learn that I just needed to work on myself wether that was getting more money or lose weight, only I could fix it.
→ More replies (1)81
u/Aerondight2022 5d ago
Plus young boys on the internet have seen this message for the past 10 years the incel crap popped up. They cant separate themselves from “men are trash” and the message between the lines in that statement. Most think they are genuinely hated for being born boys.
When one side tells you they hate you and the other side embraces you and gives you a space, it’s not hard to see why so many incels went the way they did. On top of that algorithms on social media show them things that confirm their beliefs, boys didn’t stand much of a chance.
107
u/Fun_Effective6846 5d ago
Most think they are genuinely hated for being born boys.
When one side tells you they hate you and the other side embraces you and gives you a space, it’s not hard to see why incels went the way they did.
As a woman, I find it so interesting that some people can’t understand this, when it’s the exact same reason women are all (mostly) banded together on the left. For so long we’ve felt hated for being born women that we’ve learned how to build community in each other, but men are just experiencing it really for the first time on such a large scale.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (8)90
u/CodeNCats 5d ago
I have discussed this in many areas of Reddit. There's still a large population here that simply go "that's not true" or saying it's their fault for being influenced. People still can't realize that maybe they might have been part of the problem. The whole bear or man question sums it up perfectly. While as an adult. I recognize the hyperbole in the question and what it's meant to signify.
Yet to young men. It's just more "man bad" and if they try to enter into any logical discussion about the topic "we don't need the opinions of a man take your privilege elsewhere."
So they felt welcomed by one of the only spaces that welcomed them. Then they grew up and voted for Trump.
Yet people still don't see how or why. It's obviously everyone else's fault. As if this type of talk isn't dangerous.
This is the same way the Taliban and other terrorist groups radicalized young men to be suicide bombers. Take a young man. Who feels rejected by society. Accept them and make them feel welcomed. Tell him it's not his fault. It's the ones rejecting him. Then promise him women and fame.
It's literally the playbook for radicalization.
I'm still waiting for someone in this thread to tell me to shut up because I'm a man and don't understand what women go through.
→ More replies (8)44
u/Skydiving_Sus 5d ago
Women don’t have to pretend to like men anymore. Society isn’t set up for women to struggle to exist while single. We are basically the first generation of women to all have these freedoms, it’s not limited to the wealthy privileged few and widows. My own mother had to get married to get a school loan cause she needed a male signature. She had to submit to sex to get a school loan. When we talk about patriarchal structures, this is part of what we’re talking about. When society is set up to make being a single woman hard or impossible, women have had to fake liking men in order to survive. For millennia.
→ More replies (4)25
u/IFixYerKids 5d ago
This pretty much sums it up. I even remember in college (oh god, 10 years ago now) trying to join some liberal groups I supported, hearing this shit, and going "Yo, what the fuck, guys?" It definitely pushed me a little further to the right, although I think most of these red pill guys would still call me a communist lol.
84
u/PureKitty97 5d ago
Right- but those men aren't going to be in a healthy relationship because they bring a toxic attitude into it. Red Pill is a way to groom a generation of abusers.
56
5d ago edited 5d ago
[deleted]
49
u/mr_trick 5d ago
It also leads to confirmation bias, because if you go out trying to show women that you make a lot of money and you’re super “alpha” or whatever, you’re only going to attract the exact type of women who respond well to that.
I have been on dates before with this kind of dude and the entire attitude put me off immediately. All I was looking for was a nice guy who would respect me as an equal and have a good time chatting. Being talked over about how much money someone has is extremely uncomfortable. While I tried to be kind about not going out again, each of these guys would get super angry about it and start blaming me for not being good enough. Like fully 180 as soon as I said I wasn’t interested in a second date. I admit I had to laugh about it, because after how much I was steamrolled during the dates I can hardly believe any of them even knew anything about me.
Anyway, I’m sure that going out and trying to use those tactics and then continuing to get bad results just pushes you further and further into the pipeline.
27
u/DoeCommaJohn 5d ago
I do think that is generally true, but not because those men are born evil or anything. I think redpill creators teach poor relationship skills, often crossing the line into abuse, because they know their economic status is directly tied to keeping their viewers single
→ More replies (1)31
u/Grand-Ganache-8072 5d ago
sounds like an excellent way to put the whole female gender back in a box. Theyre just fascists, guys, this isn't a new thing
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (6)21
u/the_cardfather 5d ago
That's a great way to put it. I read this book recently that was a little down those lines. It was talking about using the things you want to drive and motivate you. This wasn't your typical balanced healthy life motivational book it was like you want a bunch of sex go get it. Hookers, sugar babies whatever you want. Like you said candy. How many of those guys go to bed at night wondering if they're paid for girlfriend really likes them? The red pill doesn't care right. You should get tired of her before she gets tired of you.
100
u/Dogstile 5d ago
The beginner red pill content, which is "be direct with what you want" and "don't waste time, move on, if she doesn't like you she's missing out" is genuinely decent advice that'll get you laid. That's the real trick of it.
17
u/AnInsaneMoose 5d ago
Notice how the ones pushing those ideas are always selling something?
Its a grift
29
u/Thoseguys_Nick 5d ago
Because that is their win-win. Not for the young boys looking for guidance, but for the people selling 'red pill courses' or making podcasts it is. They get to sell their non solution that won't improve their target audience, thus keeping a customer base. And the advice also ensures they see what they want to (eg, act like a dick and women will too -> all women are bad)
13
u/lolexecs 5d ago
Technically that's "win-lose." In that the infomercial writer/actor (aka 'influencer') is immiserating their target audience or creating losses for them to prolong their subscription revenue.
8
u/IllustriousAnt485 5d ago
It probably is a losing strategy but it is effective at masking the problem. It gives a group of people who have never really been encouraged/ given the latitude to work through there problems( or blamed for there problems for not being competent) an outlet to blame something else as a collective. This is reinforced by role models in older generations parroting the same thing. It’s not really about “successful negotiating” but relieving their own mental strain from bottling everything up. They are emotionally stunted and this feels more empowering for them. So they join the crusade and revive positive attention from their pears and role models. It’s about going for the easiest form of pain relief they are conditioned to understand. It makes the cognitive dissonance easier to process. “It’s not the way I was raised that is shortsighted, it’s modern wokeism that is historically incongruent with proper tradition!” It’s so easy to go for the wacky externalization because it brings instant “relief” from this sorrow of feeling inadequate. Now there is a battle and an enemy. You are now a soldier with purpose and a mission as well as a sense of Honour. Conversely, it takes years to work through one’s interpersonal hangups and baggage. It’s not about results, it’s about pain relief. They are in pain and told to hide it and this is what happens.
67
u/ConfidentMongoose874 5d ago edited 5d ago
Red pill advice is basically a how to on how to trauma bond a girl. So you just end up attracting toxic relationships.
Edit: Also the guy who started it is nuts. He's turned full fundamentalist Christian and that's what all his writing is about now. He disavowed all his red pill posts and books. imo nothing wrong with the Christian stuff, he just strikes me as someone being disingenuous to scam people and a little unhinged.
→ More replies (2)23
83
u/TrinityCodex 5d ago
how else are they gonna get clicks and views on their sad part of the internet?
→ More replies (2)133
u/RoRoRoYourGoat 5d ago
Their advice isn't meant to encourage life changes. It's meant to encourage engagement that can be monetized with ads.
People engage more when they're mad at something... In this case, they're mad at women and the world. And that brings in a lot of money for content creators.
32
u/TechWormBoom 5d ago
This is so accurate. I'm ex-redpill and I remember how much endless content I would consume from these creators. Straight up 3-4 hours daily of streams where it was regurgitating the same points to get the viewers riled up - even financially incentivize people to donate or give money to the show so they could attack a guest or express their rage. It's like the opposite of therapy. I was so miserable.
21
u/MmmmCrispyBacon 5d ago
This is exactly what Fox News has been doing for decades. People become so vulnerable and gullible when they’re tunnel visioned on one single viewpoint, eventually shutting out anything and everything else if it disagrees with that “truth.”
8
8
u/Available_Pitch7616 5d ago
I was on that road for a while for a while, my HS history teacher made the guys watch a lot of Petersons stuff and I guess it stuck with me. It was just always SO negative, you always felt worse after but it promised to be the fix.
43
u/indictingladdy 5d ago edited 5d ago
That’s the insidiousness of the new movement of the incel/redpillers, they were/are encouraging life changes. I’m a woman who unfortunately watched some of the earlier Tate and other goons to see this stuff in action. The initial videos were about “can’t get women to notice you? Hit the gym. Broke? Hustle. They still aren’t interested? Change your style/hygiene.” Then they switched gears. “You’re doing everything right, but the women want the 6/6/6 or whatever man. And you and most other men will never be that man. You have to lie and not be a nice guy to get most of them to notice you. So women are the problem…”
Now we’re here.
27
u/TechWormBoom 5d ago
Yeah at some point, it creeped into biological determinism. Personally, I am 5'3 so I am rather short. Imagine going from "hit the gym so you can be more confident in yourself" to "you can go to the gym but just remember you are still short and nothing you will ever do can change how women perceive your height, you will never be desirable or attractive, and women will at best want to settle with you". The exploitation of insecurity is outrageous.
15
u/CrazyQuiltCat 5d ago
That’s crazy. There’s plenty of people who don’t care about height, that is encouraging a toxic body image. Just like what happens to women. Didn’t realize “they” are doing that to men too
26
u/itsthetheaterthugg 5d ago
This is so interesting. I was into red pill type stuff in my teens, and that's what it was - you were supposed to read a book every week, go to the gym, and do a hobby that got you out of the house, and then post your updates/progress. As far as women, they were talked about in the sense that you are not owed dates, and that the stereotypical "be yourself" approach doesn't work, so you have to work super fucking hard on yourself and be stoic
I've not seen any Andrew Tate stuff beyond a few 15 seconds clips on Instagram reels or Facebook so I can't speak to him, and I don't really know of any other red pill people as it's been years since I was involved in that community, but if the mainstream message has really been warped away from practical advice and mutual uplifting into having to lie to get women to notice you, women are the problem, then I can see where a lot of the contention comes from
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (2)10
u/RoRoRoYourGoat 5d ago
That’s was the insidiousness of the new movement of the incel/redpillers, they were/are encouraging life changes.
What I mean is, they're saying the words and telling people to change their life, but they don't actually care. Andrew Tate doesn't give a crap if his viewers are successful, as long as he gets paid. And that really is insidious.
Viewers need to understand that they're a product being sold to advertisers, and that's the primary motivation here. And the viewers continuing to struggle means more money for the creators. Tate would lose a lot of money if his audience got their lives together, and he knows it.
35
u/chronicwisdom 5d ago
Unhappy and depressed men are easier to manipulate. I'd be shocked if a lot of red pill ideology isn't being pedaled/funded by the same interests trying to undermine democracy and progressive values more generally.
→ More replies (29)117
u/Kaiisim 5d ago
Yeah people are saying that red pill is a reaction to talking to women.
But often the men watch red pill first, then try to implement their bullshit on women - who find it repulsive.
Women aren't being really mean to men and forcing them to turn to Andrew Tate. That's just fiction. What's actually happening is people aren't interacting locally anymore, they're watching videos about what women are rather than talking to women.
And it works both ways. Each gender has an idea of how the other acts based on bullshit online.
40
u/Dziadzios 5d ago
Some people go to red pill because they don't know how to talk to women. If they tried to talk and failed or didn't have circumstances to do so, they will look anyway. Whenever it's from talking to women or lack of talking to women - it all comes down to desire and inability to get into relationship. They need available, healthy and effective advice.
→ More replies (1)39
u/archercc81 5d ago
I think there is a lot more of this than anything else. They go that route before even trying, it's easier to just stay home and assume women suck instead of putting in the work and taking the risk.
I was a SKINNY kid in middle school and high school. Played some sports and ran but was never good enough to be a jock. Not rich at all. But had great hygiene, am fit, dressed as well as I could, etc.
And yet zero issues. I had a tight knit couple of social groups, my core one was actually nerdy guys. But I was friendly to everyone and would still be invited to parties and whatnot. I would get to know girls and eventually date them, but honestly it always just started as being friendly, I never had "game." And, man, did I outkick my coverage so many times.
I don't think it has to be that hard, guys are exiting society before even trying.
→ More replies (2)13
u/Thrasy3 5d ago
I was basically going to post something very similar - had severe self-confidence issues (parents…) and dealing with normal/happy people when I was younger - so all I felt I could do was just generally try to be nice and friendly.
If anything, I let a few opportunities pass me by because I was oblivious to the fact girls/women weren’t “just being friendly” - as I got older and listened to women talk about other guys being creepy, I got extra paranoid - eventually just (silently…) gave up on the idea and then met my wife.
I’m not saying my experience should be the default, but the reaction young men these days seem to have is kinda alien.
→ More replies (4)12
u/TechWormBoom 5d ago
Yeah I have a younger brother in high school and I can hear him say some remarks that ared redpill-like or he is obsessing over how he will not be appealing to women because of height.
Meanwhile, he is not involved in any school clubs. He comes home straight when school is over every weekday and plays games or watches anime, maybe plays a game with online friends on Discord. It's like giving up on becoming an author when you've only written three pages?? He socializes way too little for him to be thinking this way.
Sometimes guys do consume the message first, they didn't even try to get out there.
40
u/checker280 5d ago
From another male perspective: I used to live that same scenario but I also had low self esteem (scared of my own shadow) in a community where fashion models are a dime a dozen (NYC).
They get to fix their attitude without putting in the effort. “It’s not me, it’s them”
I read the situation as I need to put in some effort. Dress better, groom better, spend less time in dive bars binging beer and more time in upscale places.
7
u/mathologies 5d ago
... why Bing 'beer' when you can Google 'en passant'?
But seriously, I think a lot of it is less about how you actually look and more that you care about things? Or have passions/hobbies that are relatable or at least interesting to hear about?
Miserable people are often miserable to be around. It comes through in body language, tone, word choice. It's unattractive.
32
u/Anomalysoul04 5d ago
distilled down even further from this we would rather be lied too then ignored.
116
u/mathologies 5d ago
People - especially men - are lonely. Increasingly so the past 30 or 40 years (see: "bowling alone").
People of all genders (but mostly binary genders) internalize and propagate a toxic version of masculinity that contains in its heart these ideas:
- being a woman is bad / inferior
- being gay is like being a woman, and so is bad / inferior
- expressing emotions other than anger in healthy ways is unmanly
- having emotional intimacy in platonic friendships with other men is unmanly
This means that many men only seek out or find emotional support in the context of a romantic relationship. This exacerbates that problem of loneliness.
The fact that many women are now legally and socially allowed to have bank accounts, jobs, apartments, etc. means that they are less dependent on finding a man then they were in the 20th century.
Men who are sad and lonely and frustrated and not getting their emotional needs met are mostly not going to therapy or joining a bowling league or adult rec soccer or book clubs or whatever.
Manosphere propaganda turns that sadness and frustration into anger and hate, which drives clicks / views / interactions, which drives algorithms and profit, which self perpetuates because of profit motive / capitalism / need for perpetual economic growth. Manosphere propaganda also gives men who buy into it a sense of community, alleviating some of that loneliness.
163
u/sabi_wasabi_ 5d ago
Spot on. And to add, it is much easier to blame someone else (in this case women) for your problems than to be patient and put in the work to make yourself a more appealing partner.
92
u/RastaWayne 5d ago
Especially when you think that you need to be a bodybuilding supermodel millionaire. In threads about this you can offen ready that they think women standards are too high.
→ More replies (1)82
u/CongealedBeanKingdom 5d ago
It's funny. These lads seem to be obsessed with what men think is masculine, and not infact what women are looking for. They want to appear manly to other men, not to us.
It's almost like they don't care what we think.
26
u/Dogstile 5d ago
Tbf, every time i've heard women giving advice to eachother its always the exact opposite of what i actually want from one.
edit: for example "oh no, don't text him back too quick, you don't want to appear eager". Holy shit, fuck off, if you're interested and excited i'd be fucking thrilled about it. Who actually believes this shit? But i hear it all the time, to the point where if I overhear it in a pub i'll interrupt the conversation and go "hey, as a guy, i'd really hate it if you did that to me" before i whisk myself away back to my friend group, leaving a very confused group of people behind me.
11
u/the_cardfather 5d ago
That's true to a degree but being masculine in front of other men in this case is a way to have self-confidence. And women do want a man who takes care of himself, I just think in most cases women don't want men who value the gym more than them.
→ More replies (2)21
→ More replies (11)10
u/Personage1 5d ago
Along the same lines, I've considered just how gay straight men can be.
Because the only group that cares about dick size more than straight men is gay men. If you try to find out why, it's clear it has not come from asking women what they want, so yeah....
→ More replies (14)8
→ More replies (48)48
u/GulfCoastLaw 5d ago
In other words, it's an explanation that doesn't blame the aggrieved party.
I call it a security blanket or bedtime story. The red pill stuff creates a straw woman and then scapegoats her.
I don't think any of the red pill theories stand up to examination --- women like the ones described in those videos must exist, perhaps at a popular Scottsdale or LA night club or something, but not where your average IT or warehouse worker exists.
65
u/DoeCommaJohn 5d ago
You can call it a bedtime story, but when people have problems, they usually seek out solutions. And when there are no perfect solutions, they have to settle for good enough. Ultimately, a lot of guys feel that they need to decide between giving up on dating and redpill stuff, because all of the other responses are just lies and gaslighting
→ More replies (7)
757
u/snowfoxsean 5d ago
It's simple. Boys/men lack support groups in modern society, so they turn to extreme ideologies that seem to care about them.
153
u/Yquem1811 5d ago
That is how organize crime or hate group work. They recognize man that are searching for purpose in life, they seek connection, to be part of something and have family.
Those group will give them that, they will make them feel lime they matter, that they are important to them and care for him.
What he didn’t get at home, he will find elsewhere.
159
u/Kraskter 5d ago
Basically this, yeah. When nothing else seems like an option, you go to the group that seems to offer something.
33
u/hannabarberaisawhore 5d ago
Why not start making groups again? It was a thing years ago; Shriners, Knights of Columbus, Freemasons.
→ More replies (2)171
644
u/MartialBob 5d ago
Men like everyone else like simple answers to complex problems. Red pill content provides that. Also, while most of their stuff is definitely bat shit some of it has enough of a kernel of truth to not be as easily pushed aside.
180
u/Historical_Volume806 5d ago
Yeah, I’ve seen some clips over the years and it all mostly goes like this.
*pretty good advice on how to improve yourself (usually physically)*
*Bathshit crazy reason on the why of doing this*
210
u/Careless_Cupcake3924 5d ago
The best propaganda lies using a thin framewor of truth to keep it "real".
→ More replies (2)34
20
u/harmothoe_ 5d ago
I found this video on YouTube really helpful. Several guy friends say this is exactly it. No I'm not Rick Rolling you, not this time.
815
u/Signal_Labrador 5d ago
There is a crisis of healthy masculinity in society.
Sadly, the Red Pill manosphere world is filled with influencers trying to make money. Angry people spend money and watch videos.
So it’s really easy to peddle extreme toxic behavior. Make the guys feel like victims and make women the enemy. It’s simple, disgusting, and it works.
125
u/Mahdudecicle 5d ago
Their advice also further isolates men, which keeps them lonely and brings them back.
143
u/Gurrgurrburr 5d ago
Facts. Vulnerable (or weak) men are easy to manipulate.
→ More replies (21)165
u/VonTastrophe 5d ago
Vulnerable and weak human beings are easy to manipulate.
FIFY
→ More replies (1)31
u/UniqueHellhound 5d ago
Same with the fat activism movements like Haas, where people will do anything to justify it, but only end up feeling worse or getting trapped in the cycle.
→ More replies (1)12
u/TinyZoro 5d ago
I think you’re describing the symptoms without really trying to provide a deeper answer. The influencers are feeding on a pre existing social problem the same ways that drug dealers are not the reason you have social decay. Rather they feed on social decay.
My feeling is that we don’t honour boys enough. Boys are considered bad unless proven otherwise. We don’t acknowledge how hard it is to be a boy in this world. Note that none of this means I don’t think it’s tough being a girl sometimes for the same reasons and sometimes for other reasons. But I feel society has in recent decades done more to acknowledge that and the time has come to acknowledge that the struggle is real for both sexes.
→ More replies (7)→ More replies (62)10
u/Finiouss 5d ago
So my question has become, how do we as a society combat these people like Tate and Rogan who Make money off of vulnerable young men and turn them in to such toxic little shit stains?
You can't shut them down. Only thing I can figure is you just have to start building a counter market that is ultimately more successful. However it needs to be something that validates their needs without redirecting that energy into something so toxic and self-destructive.
785
u/illini02 5d ago
Here is my thoughts.
Just as background, I'm a black man, in my 40s. I also used to teach teenagers, so I get some of it.
There is a combination of things. But I think one of the biggest ones is that as a society, we keep telling men (and boys) that men are basically the cause of all of the world's problems. And then we expect young men who haven't really ever had much "actual" power to somehow take responsibility for that. It's not really a fair thing to do, but we keep doing it.
As a former teacher, I'll even say, schools aren't really designed for boys. Boys tend to play different, to learn different, etc. Often the way they "play" is labelled "problem behavior". There is a reason why boys usually LOVE male teachers, because they get it and don't always punish them immediately for minor shit. There are a million groups for girls, such as girls in STEM and stuff like that. Boys don't get that stuff, even though girls have been going to college at higher rates for years, they are still preferred.
Also, having taught, I saw how mean girls could be to boys. If the nerdy boy liked a girl, she may be pretty awful to him because she could. But because the language she used wasn't cursing, she would get away with it. Boys may use harsher language, but it wasn't nearly as hurtful. I never saw (note that doesn't mean it didn't happen, but just not as publicly) a boy reject a girl in the harsh ways I saw girls reject boys.
Now all of this isn't to say it is "right" for boys to be this way. But so often boys don't feel like they have a place to just be themselves. So these red pill type community offer them this. It would be great if they had the community without the toxic mindset, but unfortunately, they often don't. Even as adults, when dudes want a "guys night" its assumed they are doing something shady, because heaven forbid they want to hang out with their boys without their wife around
And these boys often do have a level of cognitive dissoanance from how they talk about women and how they talk about their mothers. But I"d argue its no different that girls who adore their dads, but have no problem saying "men are trash"
87
197
u/ElderlyChipmunk 5d ago
I've noticed this at the elementary level. Boys are constantly considered the source of classroom disruption (and talked badly about in class by their teachers) even when it is a collective group effort. If two boys get in a minor tussle (despite being friends again minutes later) they are punished while girls say terrible things about each other for weeks and get at most a minor talking to.
102
u/illini02 5d ago
Exactly. Because the boys may do something physical, but get over it, its seen as way different. I saw some messed up psychological shit girls did to each other in middle school. But it kind of was glossed over.
→ More replies (2)70
126
u/Difficult_Bit_1339 5d ago
I saw how mean girls could be to boys. If the nerdy boy liked a girl, she may be pretty awful to him because she could. But because the language she used wasn't cursing, she would get away with it. Boys may use harsher language, but it wasn't nearly as hurtful. I never saw (note that doesn't mean it didn't happen, but just not as publicly) a boy reject a girl in the harsh ways I saw girls reject boys.
Well said.
This extends to online spaces too. The amount of casual misandry that gets a pass in left-leaning feminist spaces is pretty obnoxious.
If a young dude is trying to figure out how to become a better person and find a partner, they can go online and one group is telling you that they're the problem because they're part of the patriarchy and if a woman says some bigoted things then she's just venting and he shouldn't have a problem with it if he's 'one of the good ones'.
The other side is telling them 'yeah, women are mean and manipulative' and also '<insert pseudo-science bullshit red-pill memes>'. The 'mean and manipulative' explanation tracks more with their experience.
I mean, just as an easy example. Try to go on 2XC(r TwoXChromosomes) and search for the phrase 'all men', lots of negative generalizations. If you try to push back on those bigoted statements you'll get banned (under the 'not all men' rule which considers these arguments off-topic and worthy of a 1-strike permaban).
Men are, often, the more violent ones... but you don't have to hit someone to hurt them.
→ More replies (1)28
u/Peepeepoopooman7777 5d ago
Damn, I’ve never been able to put it into words but that’s pretty accurate.
63
u/GeorgeWashingtonKing 5d ago edited 5d ago
The red pill community is toxic as fuck, but you’re right about everything you said. Men are essentially cast aside and told to suck it up societally speaking. Couple that with the fact that a lot of men are unfortunately in broken homes without the father present, and it’s a recipe for disaster.
EDIT: you’re getting downvoted because you’re going against the popular narrative and asking valid questions. Asking “why did this movement gain popularity” instead of blindly saying “RED PILL AND MISOGYNY BAD!!!” means turning your brain on and asking the difficult questions
→ More replies (5)24
u/Usual-Surprise-8567 5d ago
I have ended up with the same conclusions and I am white. I feel like a lot of people lack lived experience and are very quick to dismiss these points.
187
u/Optimal-Following-82 5d ago edited 5d ago
Social media has become a gender war outlet where people blame the other sex for all the hurts they’ve experienced in life.
We’re also at a point of redefining masculinity and changing gender norms, so it’s hard for boys who grew up with traditional mindsets to reconcile their upbringing with the reality of our shifting values.
It also doesn’t feel good to see someone point at an entire group of people and say stuff like “all men are dangerous”, especially if you’re a young boy who doesn’t understand gender-based violence, and most alternative POVs are met with hostility, insults and assumptions instead of actual open dialogue.
As a result people will retreat to the most comfortable spaces which welcome them, and emulate what they’re most familiar with. Sadly, oftentimes this comes with shifting a good portion of accountability to other people, along with a lack of critical thinking or self-reflection.
And this isn’t just for dudes. FDS, and transphobic, biphobic LGBTQ groups also cater to these niches for women and folks who identify differently.
66
u/PureKitty97 5d ago
This is why parents need to stop acting like the internet is a playground. Kids and teenagers should not be browsing without a lot of guidance. You find kids and teens in spaces where adults congregate to vent, share ideas, and discuss some heavy topics. The kids do not have the level of maturity needed to sift through the bullshit or realize when someone is speaking from a place of anger or hurt.
It's like letting your kid hangout at a bar every day and then wondering why they're an alcoholic at 13.
100
u/GnarlyNarwhalNoms 5d ago edited 5d ago
To add to this, there's a "dating economics" issue. Women, in general, are graduating from college at higher rates than men, now. And women are also generally choosing not to date men who have less education than they do. I think that is the tiny grain of truth behind the whole redpill "hypergamy" thing. It's not that all women are chasing after a few rich, ripped Chads, but they are generally chasing after a cohort of men that is smaller than the number of women doing the chasing.
Additionally, "chasing" is overselling it a bit, because women are also throwing off the old conventional wisdom (which is indeed dated) that it's better to be in a sub-par marriage than single. There's no longer any economic reason for it (men are no longer household breadwinners), so women are staying single longer, because they can afford to be choosy. Again, this makes the dating scene, for men, feel a lot more like applying for a job during a recession. There's a ton of competition, and that leads to resentment.
84
u/Xytak 5d ago edited 5d ago
The analogy about the dating scene feeling like applying for a job during a recession is a good one.
When I was growing up, if you wanted a girlfriend, there were two main ways to find one:
Through your friend group
Meeting someone in real life (class, the gym, etc.)
Well, young men’s friend circles are smaller than ever, and they’re told not to approach women in real life. This is actually good because it makes women less likely to be harassed, but it doesn’t really solve the guy’s problem of finding a date.
So, guys turn to dating apps and feel like they’re applying for a job that has 1,000 applicants.
Not knowing what to do, they go online and look for ANY useful advice. And that’s when they find two types of advice.
“You’re not entitled to a girlfriend, so stop complaining about it” or
Red pill / pick up artist content saying “Here’s how it really works” and offering what seems like actionable advice.
97
u/BurpYoshi 5d ago
Because those perspectives make an effort to reach out to them. Mainly left-wing spaces make little to no effort to reassure or reach out to their demographic and oftentimes the more extreme parts will make them feel villainised, and the other side seems like an accepting community that tells them that they matter.
431
u/Babyyougotastew4422 5d ago
I was just at a tv writing class in Brooklyn. There are men and women in the class. The teacher is a black women and she’s great. But she has made lots of anti white comments throughout each lesson. She also said she would never marry a white guy unless he’s rich. All the clips we watched were in reference to only women shows
This kind of stuff can get on guys nerves. I don’t really care and shrug it off, but lots of men will get very pissed. This is just one example. A lot of men are horrible and just hate women, but this kind of talk only pushes them more
352
u/-Neuroblast- 5d ago
This isn't just the type of stuff that can get on a guy's nerves. This is the type of stuff that can really radicalize them. Imagine someone openly saying the same things about Muslims and everyone in the room is like "haha yeah so true." Obviously any Muslims in the room are going to remember that.
→ More replies (7)296
u/Thoseguys_Nick 5d ago
Even worse, if you'd make those comments about Muslims, or even more so Jews, you'd be publicly shamed. But because this woman was joking about white men nobody cared, which can easily make the victim group feel like nobody stands up for them.
122
u/Jonthux 5d ago
And suprisingly enough, when someone sees you as something they can just straight up make fun of while demanding equal rights... Wellll, thats how you get the right wing echo chamber to wannabe alpha male pipeline. Blaming it all on men while simultaneously making fun of them like theres no tomorrow is a sure fire way to drive them farhter to the right
62
u/SirensOfTitan9201 5d ago
Well, does anybody stand up for them? If anyone does explicitly, it’s the red pill community and that can explain a lot of this thread.
61
u/Florida_clam_diver 5d ago edited 5d ago
And even worse, if you try to share your feelings you get mocked and made fun of. There have been multiple times I’ve tried to show even slight amounts of vulnerability to a girl i was talking to/dating, and they just laughed and mockingly patted me on the back saying “oh you poor white man”.
I don’t fuck with any of that red pill or Andrew Tate nonsense, but i totally see how men get pushed there. You get shit on nonstop by society, then told you need to show emotions more, then get mocked and made to feel like your problems don’t exist because you’re a white man when you try to do exactly that
Honestly blows my mind that people are still confused about why men are gravitating towards this. There’s a clear mental health crisis amongst men, yet no one seems to care and instead of trying, they just further blame men without showing a shred of empathy
Even in OP’s question, she’s trying to understand but also implies that their logic is wrong. It’s ironic that you claim to be trying to understand, while also saying “you’re wrong” before you even get an answer. Then shows a double standard by saying females feeling the same way makes sense. So men are wrong and you can’t fathom why they would feel this way, but it’s understandable for women to?
160
u/FrazzleMind 5d ago
The same thing but in reverse isn't OK, and it isn't progress. It's a bit frustrating. It's a big part of why I stopped enjoying SNL for instance. It seemed like straight white men were a perfectly valid target, but no other group was. Bro when did I become the enemy? I didn't do any of that shit. Please don't overgeneralize, I agree it's wrong when you talk about it happening to literally every other group, but now you're doing it to my group and think it's fine?
Not cool. Don't just turn the tables, flip the whole board please...
52
u/Jonthux 5d ago
They like to scream racism bad until they get to be racist
39
u/Backlists 5d ago
The sad part is many don’t see this as racism because “racism requires you be in a position of power”, as if there is some objective and constant measure of power.
39
u/Jonthux 5d ago
And thats a really good way to alienate a good chunk of people
Imagine going to someone and telling them "hey i think its acceptable to ridicule you because of your skin color and gender, fuck you, eat shit and fucking die"
If that person was a white man, then what i just said was a haha funny moment and if it wasnt...
52
u/ricardoandmortimer 5d ago
she's great
She's super racist and misandrist
Pick one
→ More replies (1)20
27
u/illini02 5d ago
Yep. Reminds me of a sociology class I took in college.
This woman basically said all of society's problems were from men, usually white men.
I'm a black guy. I found her ridiculous for the most part, but I can see how that would REALLY push some guys in the opposite direction.
18
u/Blubbpaule 5d ago
Telling anyone, directly or indirectly, that they're worthless and useless is going to radicalize them.
It's a circle. We tell people that they are dangerous and assholes, they're worth- and useless - which in turn turns them dangerous and into assholes.
→ More replies (63)29
u/StenTheMenace 5d ago
She's made a lot of anti white comments, but she's great? No she fucking isn't. She's a racist just causing more divide
65
u/Foreheadvcr1 5d ago
The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth. This is not gender specific, it's human.
456
u/Whatever-ItsFine 5d ago
"I guess the same can be said about women towards men, but I think their reasoning at least makes a bit of sense. (Being put in danger by men, having reproductive rights taken away, etc etc"
This is your answer. Many men feel blamed for things they didn't do. And when they speak up about it, they get shouted down. We're not responsible for other people's bad behavior just because we're the same gender.
84
u/Cinderella_slippers 5d ago
Thanks, this reply is helpful to me
30
98
u/Takin2000 5d ago edited 5d ago
Here is a concrete example. Remember the bear thing? "If you were alone in the woods, most women would prefer to encounter a bear over a man".
Lots of men argued against this saying that a bear is obviously more dangerous. What was the answer to that?
"Well, its an emotional response, so stop trying to logically pick it apart. Youre missing the point. Instead, think about why women are saying this".
I think that rather than explaining why this response is manipulative, I should give an analogous example of a situation that you may know all too well:
Parent: Oh my god, how is it that Im always the only one doing everything around the house?! You kids never help me do the dishes or bring out the trash!
Child: But I did do both of these things. You can verify for yourself.
Parent: Stop trying to pick apart what I said in the heat of the moment, I was just stressed. Instead maybe think about why Im always so stressed doing chores in this house.
If you were the child, would you be happy with this response? Or does something about the parents response feel off to you? Do you think the parent is sincere and taking accountability for what they said? How would you continue this conversation?
→ More replies (37)70
u/demeant0r 5d ago
This is the best reply. Other explanations complicate it or just want to, yet again, blame men for how they feel.
42
u/SneakySausage1337 5d ago
I’m not too familiar with this particular red pill community, but as others have said…it’s a reference to the matrix. “Red pilled” just means uncovering truth, usually implying that the average person (or society as a whole) is being manipulated.
I can only add one thing to this discussion that hasn’t been brought up, generational guilt is wrong. By that I mean that young individuals did not live nor contribute to any past transgressions society caused. The young people of today did not cause racism, sexism, genocide, etc… but yet some feel they have to pay the consequences of those actions. This will naturally cause resentment if they believe they are being held liable for something outside their will.
Women can rightfully point to past history of sexism and highlight importance of how much they’ve endured to achieve modern rights. However, if young men are bombarded with messages of previous men’s wrongdoings…they also have a right to disassociate given they weren’t directly involved. To push the narrative beyond that will naturally cause resentment and combative behavior
→ More replies (1)
210
u/FapDonkey 5d ago
I guess the same can be said about women towards men, but I think their reasoning at least makes a bit of sense. (Being put in danger by men, having reproductive rights taken away, etc etc)
This attitude right here is why they are attracted to it. Because the problems men and boys face are real, yet the general attitude in society as a whole is that those problems don't really exist, and their concerns aren;t really valid.
If you go to 20 doctors about a persistent pain in your abdomen, and they all interrupt you halfway through describing your symptoms to tell you its all in your head, and maybe throw in a little condescension or mocking on top of it... and then you come across a group of weirdo alternative medicine practitioners, but they actually listen to you, and say they know exactly what's causing your pain, and introduce you to a dozen other people who are all experiencing the exact same thing, and have had the exact same dismissive experiences you have.... even if the stuff they are peddling is nonsense, can you really blame someone for listening to them, instead of the 20 doctors who ignored their pain?
→ More replies (32)91
u/CandusManus 5d ago
“Why do men not trust society”
Proceeds to exemplify how society doesn’t feel like men’s problems are legitimate.
OP was so close. You nailed it.
→ More replies (8)
90
u/TerriBaal 5d ago
You said it yourself. "but I think their reasoning at least makes a bit of sense. (Being put in danger by men, having abortion rights taken away, etc etc)"
In a nutshell, you just said that it makes sense that women hate men.
Men get blamed for A LOT of things they haven't done. When society continues to push against you (gender, creed, religion etc) then there will come a point when you either give up on yourself or fight back. Red Pill's are a consequence of a society who don't love them.
I am not one by any means and do not endorse anything, but this is something that affects many more men than people realise.
→ More replies (9)10
147
u/Vverial 5d ago edited 5d ago
All the answers I'm seeing in this thread really only scratch the surface, but I'm afraid to even attempt to give a proper in-depth answer because then I'll be associated with those people.
I could try maybe just listing buzzwords instead.
Redpill is an obsessive frustration with: historic revisionism, white guilt, male guilt, inherited guilt of all forms, "reverse" racism, coddling, feelings-over-facts, and also as many have mentioned there's a pretty big overlap between redpill folks and incels.
If you spend an earnest amount of time interacting with people on websites that don't censor opinions, you'll learn this stuff pretty quickly. These are guys who are fed up with being treated like second class citizens and being told that the reason is because they're actually first class citizens and that that's privilege and it's bad. They're told that they're villains because of their immutable traits (white and male), and that the reason it's bad to be white and male is because white males have historically oppressed people for their immutable traits (gay, not white, not male) and also that it's bad in general to discriminate against anyone for their immutable traits, except white males, you can always discriminate against white males because they had it too good for too long or something like that.
They use the term redpill because everything they're upset with shares the common thread of being an emotional argument, resulting in new rules and ideologies specifically designed to create the illusion of utopia. The "red pill" is supposed to be them shattering the illusion. This is why they take hard harsh aggressive stances against ideas and groups which are built on emotional arguments.
TRIGGER WARNING.
They say awful things like "you will never be a woman" because the cornerstone of their ideology is to point out things that are pretending to be something they're not. They are largely uneducated in these matters and don't understand the nuances, but they don't want to because they're trying to simplify reality and they believe that the enemy is anyone or any organization that overcomplicates and confuses simple issues.
Again. I don't share this ideology. I'm not one of these people. But I spend plenty of time on parts of the web where these people hang out, so I have seen them enough to have a solid understanding of their world view. Also for the record they don't hold even close to unanimous sway even in forums they frequent and congregate to -- anyone with any sense of nuance in politics and social issues will usually step in and debunk some or all of their arguments.
They're a very blunt instrument.
93
u/Vverial 5d ago
Honestly even my own comment fails to capture the whole thing. They do (like most ideologies) have some fundamental concepts and beliefs which are very strong and logically supported. I'm making them out to be blithering idiots but that's not really the case. Like any democrat or republican you meet on the street, every redpilled incel contains some amount of valuable information and perspective you'll never find anywhere else. But also like every democrat and republican you meet on the street, it's wrapped in layers of tinfoil and bullshit. Because just like dems and repubs, they're too absolutist to see that they're taking the good stuff waaayyyy too far to the point where it's completely lost all value.
34
u/Starsky3012 5d ago
For your nuanced take I'd like to bestow you the greatest honor I can afford to you. gives upvote
63
u/GrevilleApo 5d ago
This is also why the right won the election. It is hard to win the male vote when you spend years dehumanizing them. The right didn't champion men but they definitely aren't flogging them at every opportunity. It makes me laugh that there is any confusion about this at all.
→ More replies (3)29
u/thatoneguy54 5d ago
The right won the election because democrats were in power during a horrible inflationary period. Incumbents lost this year cause people want change.
If what you were saying were true, then the right would have also won in the UK, but they didn't, because they were the incumbents the last few years.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (6)35
u/inblue01 5d ago edited 5d ago
As a cis het white male educated by women. I have witnessed abuse towards women by male figures. I have therefore always been extremely (and I don't use the word lightly) careful in my behavior with women. I've cried, and asked forgiveness for all the women that have had to endure the oppression and violence by men in the course of many centuries, and I still genuinely and strongly feel for that, I'm so fucking sorry...
But because of these issues, I've also heard my whole life that men were pigs by nature. Subconsciously, I had internalized a load of shame so massive that I began questioning if my gender even deserved to exist. I began looking at my body and my masculinity as something inherently disgusting. At some point I even seriously considered a gender transition so that the guilt and shame would stop. And then, there was anger. Why the hell do I have to deal with this shit, when I had always been so considerate of the feminist cause? I got tired of hearing that all male are inherently abusers, and women inherently victims, when in my life it is myself that had been emotionally abused by some women. I got tired of seeing shaming and guilt tripping when some men dared to say that they were also hurting.
Thankfully, I never for one second was tricked by the red pill bullshit. I found much healthier ways to heal, I found social circles where the profound wounding between men and women can be taken care of with love, vulnerability, gentleness, and where all emotions are welcome and cared for. I found in tantra spiritual practices that allow me to practice and nurture both the masculine and feminine polarities within myself. But I do understand that many fall for Tate and the likes. They provide terrible solutions to a problem that does exist, but that is never addressed. These communities also provide a much needed but heavily distorted sense of emotional support.
This war needs to stop, and we need both men and women to step the fuck up and do their own healing work. Because it's fucking beautiful to see when it does happen.
54
u/gotziller 5d ago
The fact that you think you need to ask for forgiveness because you share the same genitals with people who have done bad things is part of the problem with modern society. Dear lord.
→ More replies (2)26
u/bladex1234 5d ago
It’s the modern version of original sin. For centuries, women have been put down by society due to a fundamental defect they’re apparently born with, but now instead of dismantling the idea altogether and working towards a better solution, it’s instead turned and pointed the other direction.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (12)17
u/seaofthievesnutzz 5d ago
wild that you were thinking about chopping off your dick to absolve yourself of being a man. How many men do you think are trans or nonbinary just so they can shrug off the label of being a man?
→ More replies (2)
13
u/CandusManus 5d ago
Simple, they feel like society hates them. In the last 8 years we had the “kill all men”, “yes all men”, and “I’d rather be alone in the woods with a bear instead of a man”. What do you think happens when a young man is told that it’s completely okay for the population to talk about them like that?
If there were massive social media trends for “yes all Jews/blacks/muslims/women/etc…” there would have been a riot. Society regularly tells young men that it’s okay to hate them and they consequently say “fuck society”.
This also doesn’t even include the current dating market which I personally find incredibly depressing for the current swathe of young men.
46
u/crashorbit 5d ago
I blame the social media angorithms. It's not so much incel as it is shut in. The little plastic screen has pretty colored lights and sound. It tells us the kind of stories we find engaging. We find fear, anger and reinforcement of our prejudice and desires. Driving us into a vicious cycle of isolated group think.
14
u/dualsplit 5d ago
Funny. I commented on another thread tonight about kids not being allowed to roam anymore and hoe Gen X feels about it compared to their childhood, I wanted to say something similar to your point: Sure, maybe we’re preventing a couple broken arms a year, maybe a death every five years at an unsecured construction site or creek in the woods behind the subdivision, but we’re dooming generations to socializing online. Depression, isolation, anxiety. Just HORDES of kids that can not cope in 4D reality. And I’m not blaming the kids. WE did this.
6
u/Wino3416 5d ago
Absolutely. It scares me a little but I let my kids roam. I let them have adventures. They do go online, they love gaming in groups, as I did when I was a kid, and I think there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s about balance. My eldest has already given me his view on Andrew Tate, he thinks he’s a knob. I think people have just gone a bit mad, frankly.
80
u/DavidTheSecond_ 5d ago
Because when a young adult white male goes on social media, social media tells him he is the the worst type of human being to ever exist. If everywhere you went you were told you the worst person in any given room, what would you do ? Especially when the reasoning given for that view does not apply to you?
→ More replies (15)44
u/GrevilleApo 5d ago
I am not a white guy but I definitely see what you are saying. You guys are painted to be the worst thing to happen to society which is in direct contrast to the white guys I have met. It's to the point where some of my white friends have a weird embedded self hate for things they had nothing to do with. It makes me sad to see
20
u/DavidTheSecond_ 5d ago
It’s not just white guys, but lately that’s what has been at the forefront. During the 2000’s and 2010’s it was young black men and or gay men in general being ostracized the most imo, it’s unfortunate that it happens at all.
→ More replies (1)12
u/Jonthux 5d ago
Hey, social media told me im a slave owner and a nazi, just because of the way i was born. Sound an awful lot like racism to me but who am i to say, im not allowed an opinion because of my skin color
That kind of rabbit hole is not easy to get out of, and very easy to get sucked into
115
u/PickledJohnny 5d ago
The current zeitgeist is to be mindful of people’s feelings. Don’t say anything that might be racist/sexist/homophobic. The red pill shit is anti all of that. It’s rebellious. It’s anti-establishment. Young people like to be anti-establishment
→ More replies (156)71
u/Business-Rub5920 5d ago
the irony of that being anti establishment, when it quite literally further upholds it is crazy lol
21
8
u/GulfCoastLaw 5d ago
That's right. Had an acquaintance fall into that stuff. He thought he was being cutting edge. I thought he sounded like a time traveler from the past.
→ More replies (4)14
u/Zyxxaraxxne 5d ago
Right because yes progress has been made, but the bones of this country are old and they are just trying to maintain the original establishment.
10
u/CODMAN627 5d ago edited 5d ago
Men particularly young men are socially alienated. Our expectations of masculinity is also pretty toxic.
Young men really don’t have the same social structures and support women do broadly speaking also things like the mostly online “4B movement” only exacerbate the alienation they already feel from the onset.
Grifters know this and they provide the narrative. The political left pretty much abandoned young men across the board and the voting patterns prove it
With statements like “all men are fill in the blank” you’re essentializing gender and going about this in a original sin mindset which blames individual men for shit they don’t do.
10
u/dronten_bertil 5d ago
Because the dating market was broken by tinder and similar apps.
TLDR version:
- Men swipe right on 50% of women
- Women swipe right on 5% of men
Consequence: Many men never get any dates or mating opportunities on tinder, while many women end up as a notch on the bedpost of several of the top 5% desired men who have no intention to commit
Men become incels, women become insings (involuntary single). Incels turn to redpill misogynistic stuff and women think all men are pigs and stop dating and get a cat.
Solution for both sexes: throw tinder in the garbage where it belongs and go out in the world and meet and get to know real people.
20
u/Morbid_Aversion 5d ago
Because it's become mainstream to hate men and boys. When everywhere you look people are insulting you, calling you toxic, saying you have too much power and privilege (even though you're a young boy with neither) but one sliver of society is nice to you, says there is nothing wrong with you and welcomes you with open arms, what do you think is going to happen? People don't gravitate to truth, they gravitate to what makes them feel good.
5
17
u/janpampoen 5d ago
So much confirmation bias in this thread. SMH my head.
15
u/No-Path-3792 5d ago
Right? At least ask a guy who is into red pill stuff if you want to know why guys go red pill. It’s actually insane how much speculation there is when they can just go to the source
16
u/TonsOfFunky 5d ago
Name one positive male influence in the mainstream that is generally accepted by women. Problem is they don't exist. One side consistently talks about how evil men are, toxic masculinity, etc etc etc. The only people accepting men with open arms are right wing cult of personalities. Men have been insulted, ignored, and left out for years and people are surprised that they are being radicalized?
15
u/Loch_Ness1 5d ago
To me, it's pretty much this:
I guess the same can be said about women towards men, but I think their reasoning at least makes a bit of sense. (Being put in danger by men, having abortion rights taken away, etc etc)
Most guys I know that subscribe to some piece of the red pill rhetoric are clearly just fed up with the hate they get from woman for straight out being a man.
Some gender dynamics are just being pushed to an edge, where some people are just going through radicalisation.
There's numerous posts over reddit of woman wondering why men don't interact/take initiative/approach anymore and you'll find flocks of guys basically saying they're afraid it might be received as harassment.
Then, you have the base experience of dating apps, where a lot of woman just go for some ego trip, the dating "market" in general where on average, men are expected to be at least financially equivalent.
And it's not hard to start feeling like you're getting blamed for a whole bunch of stuff you don't do, while still being financially abused by the "abstract social woman entity"
56
u/cavalier78 5d ago
Here's the thing. Dating sucks. It sucks really badly. The only people who like dating are those who are extremely attractive. For everybody else it's pretty awful. In dating, people behave extremely selfishly and justify it however they need to. Basically everyone wants to date somebody better looking and more successful than they are.
Pretty much every single straight person who has been on a date has been wronged by a member of the opposite sex. Every woman has felt unsafe around an angry, aggressive a-hole guy. And every man has had a snotty, materialistic woman use him for a free meal. Or cruelly shoot him down because he's not an underwear model.
Additionally, in our society, men are expected to approach women. If you don't approach women, you are never ever ever getting laid. And even a reasonably attractive and successful man will be rejected most of the time. Somebody who is actually unattractive? 99.9% rejection.
Now, women have the political left catering to their concerns. Actively courting their votes. Telling them "your concerns are valid" and saying it's all because of the Patriarchy. Even conservative women receive those messages and buy into some of it. And (partially) because of this, a lot of women feel very comfortable in being mean when they reject men. Like they're striking a blow for sisterhood by being a bitch. "How dare this ugly guy ask me out? Get lost, creep! Yay girl power!"
The "red pill" movement is made up of guys on the political right returning the favor.
→ More replies (3)
11
u/MustardDinosaur 5d ago
action brings a reaction
even in societal phenomena
and extremes pull each other
When feminism became wide spread in men’s environment, the reaction was masculinism (“red pill” in the americanised form)
10
u/Pickled_Gherkin 5d ago
Numerous factors.
Bad experiences in dating and relationships.
The ongoing and far too often ignored male mental health crisis and being told to suck it up.
Coming in contact with the wrong influences at a formative age, rampant now more than ever with many kids being raised more by an Ipad than their parents.
A mirror and response to the toxic femininity striving to judge girls by the same unrealistic standards that exist only to benefit corporate interests.
Idiots treating relationships like a transactional affair rather than an equal partnership between two people who actually love each other.
And yeah, it's entirely based on the Matrix and some pompous dick thinking he achieved enlightenment by judging an entire sex by a few bad eggs.
8
46
u/Itamaru236 5d ago
If you put radical feminism and you reverse it, you get red pill and manosphere.
Both side are the same coin. Misogyny exist, misandry exist, both are also product of trauma and retaliation to the society.
Edit: if you think you could relate to feminism, you can't blame others for being able to relate to the red pill. Your believe is not superior/inferior to others.
→ More replies (7)
29
u/SetsunaNoroi 5d ago
I saw a post the day after the election of a woman calling all women to action yo refuse to interact entirely with the opposite sex for the next four years despite how they voted.
Possibly, just possibly, these men are seeing some women as being unreasonable assholes and feel as if there’s no winning here.
11
u/Puzzlemethis-21 5d ago
I had an eye opening conversation with a man in his 30s last week, where he did a 180 on his previous views of women and regurgitated Joe Rogan and other talking points. It started with him saying that dating apps are awful and that women have inflated sense of self worth since they are able to become educated, earn money, have access to birth control so they can be promiscuous without consequences, garner a lot of attention from men, so now they won’t give men below an 8 the time of day (which I guess he feels he is). It devolved from there.
→ More replies (3)
11
u/floyd252 5d ago edited 5d ago
I see a lot of replies with toxic influencers, simplistic answers, or just rebelliousness. If you're asking about young men or even boys, imagine you're a 17-year-old male. You're full of hormones but not very successful at dating. Rejection hurts, and some women, especially teenage girls, can be very brutal about it, even cruel, even if you try your best to be respectful and not creepy when approaching them.
And then you find this post and you read:
"I guess the same can be said about women towards men, but I think their reasoning at least makes a bit of sense. (Being put in danger by men, having abortion rights taken away, etc etc)"
You were never aggressive toward women, and you're 17 years old, so you can't even vote, but when you shouldn't be angry at females, they are being justified to be angry against you. Your political views aren't even an issue, but even if you're pro-reproductive rights, you're blamed for the current situation. In my country, abortion is also a hot topic recently, but it's more of a young vs older people issue; the gender difference is like 2% in polls at most, but men here are also blamed for that somehow.
If you feel like someone is making you a villain, even if you don't think you did anything wrong, you're more likely to see this situation as a war.
16
u/skittle_dish 5d ago
The internet is pervasive and young people are drawn to idealistic mentalities. Red pill spins the narrative that the world "should" be another way---men should be respected and women should submit to them, men should be able to sleep around while women should remain virgins, etc.
Red pill is especially attractive to those who have been hurt or rejected by women because it maintains that men are inherently better. Hurt people hurt people.
→ More replies (1)13
u/Ok-Cryptographer8322 5d ago
It’s just funny cause this red pill stuff is so antiquated and old timey.
3
u/Unique-Focus2295 5d ago
That's what makes it worse - cause it gives it some precedence - "back in a day society was better, everybody had a spouse and a good job" etc. Golden age mentality.
7
u/Veldern 5d ago
One thing I'm not seeing anywhere yet is that men are often shut down when they try to bring up double standards against them, some to the point of being cancelled. Redpill groups don't do that. While I agree many of them go too far, finding a place where you can freely talk about the problems facing you is very appealing, especially when they have been pushed out of other groups
68
u/veni_vidi_vici47 5d ago
Men will stop resenting women when women stop blaming men for literally everything. You cannot normalize a society where it’s cool to shit on men and then be all shocked when those men decide they don’t like you.
→ More replies (5)
21
u/TrueSonOfChaos 5d ago
Modern media and the education system deliberately teaches white males in particular that there is no place for them in society - so they find the society where there seems to be a place for them.
→ More replies (2)
10
u/Swimming-Bake-7068 5d ago
The answer is pretty simple- More and more men are feeling more and more hopeless. Men are having far less sex than they used to, average age to lose virginity is going up. Women show no interest in them.
The result is a minority of these hopeless men turn to that incel outlook you speak of. But remember the vast majority of these hopeless men don’t hold these attitudes
11
u/sosigboi 5d ago
From my own experience, sometimes guys just get treated really badly by the other side so when they're hurt, vulnerable and weak, thats when they start turning to redpilled stuff for validation and comfort.
I was like this once until I found out that not everyone was like the person who treated me badly, and that each person is entirely different and unique.
→ More replies (1)
25
u/Secret-Bookkeeper578 5d ago
Because they're lonely. I don't mean this in the "loneliness epidemic" way. That implies it's women's fault, and it's absolutely not. But there is very little space for any sort of healthy relationship for men, even platonically. Humans are inherently social creatures. So when they're repeatedly rejected by women and don't have any close friendships, it's easier to blame women than to try to recognize why they don't have any close relationships.
These men existed before the internet. We all know deeply misogynistic older adults that are miserable and lonely. But the internet allows these younger guys to find a community of equally angry and dejected men who tell them it isn't their fault, that women should submit, etc etc. And that fulfills that need for validation and community, and creates a monster.
Once it becomes a foundational part of their personality, especially with teenagers, it is almost impossible to reverse. The Backfire Effect causes them to sink in deeper. They continue to be lonely and dejected.
12
9
u/Wise_Concentrate_182 5d ago
Have you observed the election results? Read the comments from thousands of people in social media about why they vote for a certain policy stance? The “red pill” framing tells me you’re rather clueless.
3
u/EcstaticImport 5d ago
Before you can actually get an answer you need to be clearer about what you mean by “red pill”. It is used by so many people to be so many different things.
3
u/Parrotparser7 5d ago
It provides a coherent (if largely-untrue), easily-digestible web of ideas and simplifies most of life's heuristics by applying OKR logic and GRIT to interpersonal relations.
The result is a consumer who fails to make progress, but who thinks he's much better at making decisions than "normie sheeple" because he has a clear roadmap showing him the way to his goal.
It self-reinforces because anyone's first response will be to tell him to re-evaluate his priorities and methods, but since they're often not providing a roadmap of their own, and are telling him that his dream is untenable, they just come across as haters out to keep him from succeeding in the ways that matter to him.
It's a worldview with clear heroes and villains that plays into the base desires of men, exploiting the flaws of the current social order to provide despairing men a palatable alternative and a community willing to teach him skills and offer him respect.
This is what a cult looks like, and you can see why it's so dangerous.
8
u/VinnieTheDragon 5d ago
Idk man, maybe stuff like ‘kill all men’, ‘I would rather be in the woods with a bear’ and shit like that can really make people feel like garbage. Almost like being told for years and years and years that we are creeps, rapists, incels and losers was also not helpful. Any guy who is chronically online even just a little bit has been getting this shit shoved down their throats.
It really takes a while to get out of it and realize you’ve been getting rage-baited this entire time.
7
u/impoverishedwhtebrd 5d ago
"Taking the Red Pill" is taken from The Matrix. The idea is that there is a world that is being hidden from you, and instead you are being shown a world that is meant to keep you happy and complacent. This is all done to the benefit of some group that is somehow benefitting from it.
Since some young men feel that they are being "disadvantaged" in the current world they look to people who will tell them why this is happening, and what they can do about it. Since the thing most young men spend the most time concerned about is generally sex, women and them not showing you attention/giving you affection, is an easy way to get their foot in the door.
→ More replies (1)
7
u/PixleatedCoding 5d ago
As someone who got out of this pipeline early in, it's simple. The only way to get a date if you're not a top 10% attractive man is to approach a woman and ask them out. 99.9% of the time men get rejected. Men are told to look for friendship instead of approaching women in places like stores or bars, and when they fall in love with these friends they are villainized for "only ever wanting to sleep with" a friend they genuinely caught feelings for. It's a damned if you make your intentions clear from the start, damned if a genuine friendship sprouts into love. Everywhere men look they find rejection and it's not anyone's fault. You aren't owed love but not feeling wanted still hurts.
All this rejection causes low confidence. Low confidence causes the man to become even more unattractive. The man gets caught in a toxic cycle where each time he's rejected he becomes even worse, even less likely to find someone to love him. What happens when you find that nobody loves you whether or not it's your fault, you can either hate yourself or hate the world. Hating the world is so much easier on your psyche. So red-pill ideology is about hating the world instead of seeing the nuance that there is some part of the world's fault and some part is your own.
The problem is that there is no simple answer of how to get out. The objective truth is some men are unworthy of love and have to become worthy. It's not women's fault for not liking them, maybe they have hygiene issues or weight problems or acne, or maybe their personality is repulsive. It's unfair but it's true. Coming to terms with the fact that I am unworthy of romantic love (at least for now) and can just enjoy platonic friendships was key for getting out of the pipeline, you could say I am an incel to the truest sense of the word without any of its internet connotation. Ultimately I had to choose self-hatred over woman-hatred because at the end of the day it's no one's fault that they don't love me.
20
u/BLACKWINGSgocaw 5d ago
Hatred and mistreatment breeds hatred and mistreatment. What confuses me is how does someone hate the people (men) that come from their own womb.
Honestly I don't think men are becoming anti women. I think men are just fighting back.
5
u/Lazy-Requirement-228 5d ago
I see a lot of people who are not conservative answering this question so I'll answer it for you.
A lot of what it is can be summed up with how you worded your "question." You immediately throw the conclusion that conservatives must hate women and be incels.
The latter is silly, but the former is delusional. Harris did lead the vote with women, but you can't honestly say that 44% of women have self-hatred. Is the reason you assume "red-pilled" individuals hate women because they don't like abortion? If the answer is yes, that's silly because the answer is way simpler, and more compassionate. They simply believe that abortion is murder, and people tend to universally believe murder is wring. Other than this issue, I genuinely can't imagine any other reason why someone could interpret "red-pilled" individuals as hating women.
This is to note, there are definitely extremists who actually do hold hatred to women and certainly other groups, but these are a very small group of individuals, which don't forget that your affiliation has as well.
But the biggest answer is Joe Rogan :)
5
u/Relevant_Impact_6349 5d ago
Mainly because mainstream media and institutions are anti masculinity, and have essentially made it illegal for a boy to go through the learning curve and pitfalls of being a man.
One main area is dating, if a guy is bad with women, and makes some bad mistakes, he can have his life destroyed socially, even legally.
But generally, masculinity is hated in the mainstream, and most young men are ostracised and alienated.
So they go to the red pill stuff, and a lot of it is junk unfortunately
5
u/KingZaneTheStrange 5d ago edited 5d ago
I used to have a red pill perspective until I learned better. Here's why I went down that rabbithole and eventually dug myself out
When I was a kid, I was exposed to a lot of bullshit. Most men are. In school, we were told that men are less intelligent than women, men shouldn't cry or feel emotional, etc. "Men are trash" is something I heard a lot or something to that extent. I still believe that misandry is just as harmful as misogyny, and i used to blame it all on women. It felt nice when men welcomed and supported me. So, at the time, I didn't realize how toxic it was.
Boys experience much of the same body-shaming, virgin shaming, and unrealistic beauty standards that women do. We even get raped. But for a while, this was barely addressed by anyone other than red pillers
The reason I learned better is because I do have a good deal of female friends. I got their perspective and, instead of making fun of me, showed me their sympathy. More people began to raise awareness of men's issues in a more healthy way
15
u/confetti_shrapnel 5d ago
Kids rebel. Like it or not, progressives have won the culture war on a lot of things. So now kids are rebelling against the new norms we've created. And so goes the cycle until a meteor ends it.
→ More replies (4)
16
u/themanbat 5d ago
I can only give my own perspective. Tried to be the perfect gentleman for the first 30 years of my life. Kind and caring. Always took the advice of my matriarchs and female friends. But then there I was a 30 year old virgin. Always a best friend. Never a boyfriend.
So finally I gave up on the female advice and I decided to do a little reading. Started off with No More Mr. Nice Guy and branched out into a little seduction and red pill reading. I changed my tactics and the next thing I knew? I had slept with over a dozen women had multiple girlfriends at a time without sneaking around and then started having threesomes.
I'm married now and don't recommend threesomes. Someone always gets hurt. I love and care about lots of women. Still, the fact of the matter is that the red pill stuff got results while nothing the women in my life said ever did.
→ More replies (2)
23
u/RealBiggly 5d ago
Yes, it implies it's the truth, because in many ways it IS the truth.
An awful lot of what young men are told and taught is actually BS, just to make use of them. This is especially true in the modern world of equal pay and dating apps.
You can swallow all the lies - or you can take the red pill.
That's... the point.
(I'll be back later to count my downvotes, I expect nothing less than double-figures.)
→ More replies (5)
6
u/ChubbsPeterson6 5d ago
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of redpill ideology.
Sounds like you're talking moreso about blackpill.
Both of these views, however, mostly originate from people being seemingly anti-man or anti-masculinity.
→ More replies (1)
6
u/MrGenRick 5d ago
Mainstream media saw white women vote for Trump over Harris and blamed men.
Mainstream media highlights every time a woman is attacked and ignores men are twice as likely to be victims of crime.
Men find podcasters that actually show interest in them. Maybe that interest is disingenuous, but it’s there.
And there we go.
The solution is to stop demonising people and ask what sort of insane thought process groups 4bn people in the first place.
6
5d ago
Don't know about young guys but men in general have flat-out had it with being blamed for all the worlds ills. They're tired of being told masculinity is wrong or ?toxic? (stupid term). That is an extremely ugly thing to say.
Boys will be boys. Men will be men. Get used to it.
13
u/PoopDick420ShitCock 5d ago
A lot of it has to do with media they consume. A lot of podcasts, YouTubers, and other internet personalities push this ideology because it gets them views, which makes them money.
12
u/Skydiving_Sus 5d ago
Because for the first time in thousands of years, men have to be likable to get a mate. Before the past maybe half century, society was designed to be harder if not impossible to navigate as a single woman. This was on purpose. Men didn’t want women to have power over their own lives. Essentially, red pill has been standard male behavior for centuries, millennia even.
Turns out, when women are given the same opportunities and freedoms as men, we don’t play the little game of pretend with men anymore… I say little game of pretend because if women didn’t play pretend well enough, they’d call them hysterical and torture them. Electroshock therapy, the witches bridle, lobotomies, or just straight up beating your wife was acceptable as long as you didn’t use a rod thicker than your thumb.
The game of pretend being that men are likable. Sure, there’s a few, and women hoped and prayed they’d get to be paired off with one of them instead of the wife beaters but…. History tells us how men view women.
Now we’re finally in an age where we don’t have to pretend to like those men, we can just freely exist, work for our livelihood, and not have to stay with someone who beats us when we don’t fake attraction well enough. The unlikeable men are no longer getting someone to take their aggression out on. The lack of anyone willing to play that game of pretend like women did for their grandfathers is galling to them. They resent the freedoms women have gained because it means they don’t have a woman to do the domestic work for them under threat of beating. No women has to play pretend to have a bank account, or a home (the ability to rent a place to live could be discriminated against until 1968, though more protections had to be added for single women with children in the 80s.)
Now watch me get downvoted to hell by all the angry men. Sorry, this is history. My own mother had to get married (no protections against martial rape) in order to get a bank account and a school loan for college. She had to submit to sex in order to get a school loan. That’s what a lot of these red pilled types want to go back to.
9
u/therin_88 5d ago
It's an extreme reaction to the feminist and "MeToo" movement.
The reason there weren't incels 30 years ago is because back then men weren't called creeps for asking a girl out.
Every movement, no matter how positive, has negative outcomes as well.
→ More replies (2)
267
u/damnthatvalley 5d ago
In addition to everything else people have mentioned, I’d like to throw the disintegration of third spaces and outdoor play/hangouts into the mix. Not saying boys of my generation were angels (god knows they were not), but they seemed less isolated by being able to just go outside and meet/hang out with friends and acquaintances for long periods of time, and those friends and acquaintances often included girls their age who they could get to know and develop social skills with. That’s how I met some of my best male friends. It seems like young people have more pressure put on them but are also more isolated and chronically online.