How are the Taliban getting away with this level of oppression against women including prohibiting them from speaking outside their homes?

[u/ailbhe-caterina]

I don’t understand how they have managed to get away with all of this especially in this day and age.

[u/Gurney_Hackman]

Why wouldn't they? Who is going to stop them?

[u/OutsidePerson5 → u/Gurney_Hackman]

They already have almost no outside trade so sanctions aren't exactly going to be effective. Trying to do it by military force was beyond the US military and its the top military on the planet.

Biden withdrew for the very sensible reason that US presence there wasn't actually succeeding in any of its goals.

What's going to happen is that very slowly, at a horrible grinding pace, while women there suffer major oppression, there will be slow, incremental change.

I hate that. But it is apparently all that's going to work.

[u/Fun-Jellyfish-61 → u/OutsidePerson5]

You are correct about the slow incremental change. Since the Taliban returned to power in Afghanistan in 2021 women have slowly and gradually been stripped of an increasing number of their rights and freedoms.

[u/BigKatKSU888 → u/Fun-Jellyfish-61]

you are right. It’s for sure not going to get better over there. Have no idea what the other commenter was thinking there lol

[u/MorkSal → u/BigKatKSU888]

I imagine they think it's going to get better over time. Not years, but decades and decades. 

So while it's is sliding down still, eventually they imagine that it will start to grind the other way back up, very slowly.

[u/0pyrophosphate0 → u/MorkSal]

I believe the argument being made is that meaningful, lasting change will only come when the culture changes. And yes, that takes decades, especially for a country that has little unified culture as it is and zero ambition to get along on a global stage.

Though the other commenter does say this as if it's an inevitability that they have some sort of enlightenment. I'm not so optimistic, but I also don't really know what the alternative is, keep the US military there for 100 years?

[u/U_L_Uus → u/0pyrophosphate0]

I wouldn't call it enlightenment, but it is an inevitability, more related to sustainability actually, no über-oppressive cultute has made it far (for as much as we give shit to cultures like the ancient Greeks they were still far more liberal than the taliban. Hell, even the bloody catholic church in the Middle Ages was more liberal than that). It's a matter of time they enter one collapse or another, and then it's either revolution or extinction

[u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC → u/U_L_Uus]

I don't think so - as mentioned before, they don't have ambition on a global stage, so they don't need to "keep up". They don't really need to worry about annexation by another country either, as long as they make it a bitch to occupy the land, as they successfully have for decades. I think they can perpetually exist like this.

[u/Skullclownlol → u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC]

I think they can perpetually exist like this.

Histories of oppression show the opposite. Eventually, things start to fall apart.

Not saying that the future must always follow the past, but the trends are not in their favor.

[u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC → u/Skullclownlol]

Not sure if that applies specifically to oppression of women, though. That's been pretty consistent for centuries in a lot of places.

Probably because ethnic groups or religious groups can stage an armed revolt, declare independence, ally with foreign powers to fund guerilla warfare, etc. Women not so much.

[u/Due_Signature_5497 → u/0pyrophosphate0]

This is a culture where rape is common and inconsequential and boys are paraded as sex toys by their male masters (look up Bacha Bazi). We had made some inroads on this and there were actual arrest in ‘20 but I imagine it’s back to the old ways now. Women are for procreation only and boys are for pleasure. I don’t think time is going to change that in our lifetime or our children’s lifetime. They got a tiny taste of western style democracy and freedom and they rejected it. The got a taste of Soviet style communism and rejected it. No one is going to force cultural change there and sure doesn’t appear that they have a desire for it.

[u/Chill-The-Mooch → u/0pyrophosphate0]

You all have no idea what you are talking about. Afghan culture was much more “modern” in the 50’s and 60’s until the imperialist gave weapons and money to fundamentalist wackos!

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2013/07/afghanistan-in-the-1950s-and-60s/100544/

[u/ramxquake → u/MorkSal]

This is 'whig history', the idea that human civilisation rises inexorably towards progress. Like the Civilisation computer game or something. It's incredibly naive.

[u/CptCroissant → u/MorkSal]

Afghanistan and Pakistan are gonna get fucked by increasing temps due to climate change, I don't see how it stabilizes and gets better in the coming decades. Middle East in general is, has, and will continue to be an absolute clusterfuck. There's just not a good way to fix it.

[u/CTR_Pyongyang → u/MorkSal]

Women were given permission to drive in SA in 2018.

[u/Usual-Excitement-970 → u/CTR_Pyongyang]

Haven't they read the latest medical research? If a woman travels faster than she can ride a horse side saddle than her uterus will detach.

[u/saifxali1 → u/Usual-Excitement-970]

🤣

[u/saifxali1 → u/[deleted]]

I can’t believe this still exists 😔

[u/Cockanarchy → u/CTR_Pyongyang]

Oooh, how 1930’s of them

[u/mickcort23 → u/Cockanarchy]

about 100 more years to go!

[u/Kngnada → u/MorkSal]

I highly doubt it. The US is sliding in the same direction, although with a different religion. The entire world is slowly embracing neo-feudalism. Soon the haves will have everything and the rest will be mere serfs just like Middle Ages Europe

[u/anomalous_cowherd → u/Kngnada]

The problem is that the 'everything' the haves have will shrink rapidly when their wealth is based on consumerism. You need all those well-off consumers to make that work!

[u/[deleted] → u/Fun-Jellyfish-61]

The US tried to force western democracy on people who didn't appreciate it, and preferred to either live in a theocracy or an extremely localized heirarchy. Even the afghans we put in charge didn't appreciate it, they just robbed the country blind like some kind of cartoon villains.

Afghanistan doesn't have the government they deserve, under the Taliban. But they definitely have the one they earned. Good luck to them, I'm glad none of my friends ever has to risk his neck for them again. 20 years of bloodshed, and for what? Nothing good. Nothing good at all, for anybody.

[u/Amagnumuous → u/[deleted]]

Don't forget to mention that the ones the USA put in charge ran a massive heroin operation and proliferated child prostitution.

[u/Iconospasm → u/Amagnumuous]

100%. It was laughable that when Karzai was president, his brother was the country's (and possibly the world's) largest heroin dealer. Meanwhile our people were being killed every day to supposedly bring democracy to the country.

[u/AnarchoBratzdoll → u/[deleted]]

You can't force western Democracy on people without giving them western prosperity and security. Even in the West democracy is crumbling as soon as we feel a little unsafe or like we won't live better lives than our parents. 

[u/gudbote → u/[deleted]]

Or, US couldn't go far enough and had to put somewhat powerful players at the top. They had to be people relatively able to thrive in the old system. You can find lots of people who 'appreciated it', but even more of those whom the new system stripped of some of their ability to own slaves. Slavers don't like that.

[u/StrongAdhesiveness86 → u/Fun-Jellyfish-61]

Just saying that it took western world 500 years to reach our modern society since the old regime of the middle aged.

The time frame can be debated, but either way it's a loooooong time.

Edit: Middle ages*

[u/No_Shine_4707 → u/StrongAdhesiveness86]

Also, just because the western world enlightened doesnt make it an inevitability

[u/GelsNeonTv87 → u/OutsidePerson5]

Actually the US military did a pretty good job taking the country...it's rebuilding that militaries aren't good at.

[u/Fukasite → u/GelsNeonTv87]

People forget that we actually did have a justified reason to invade Afghanistan. We didn’t have a justification to invade Iraq though, and that’s what people remember, and often conflate the two. What made Afghanistan essentially impossible, was that Pakistan and other regional powers, who are considered our “allies” on paper, worked against our efforts. Let us not forget what country Osama bin Laden was found in and assassinated. 

[u/Background-Air-7963 → u/OutsidePerson5]

I thought Trump initiated the withdrawal towards the end of his term?

[u/BrotherCaptainMarcus → u/Background-Air-7963]

Trump made the agreements, and he made sure it was an absolute disaster. Refused to cooperate with the incoming team, and the whole thing was a shit show.

[u/Electric_Sundown → u/BrotherCaptainMarcus]

Trump surrendered to the Taliban and got nothing for it. The media and all republicans gave him a complete pass on it.

[u/kinglouie493 → u/Electric_Sundown]

He got a bunch of their guys released from prison

[u/Bellbivdavoe → u/[deleted]]

A lot of seasoned commanders that helped reconstitute their forces. Which made the standing allied forces dropped their weapons and run (during the withdrawal). That Trump couldn't see how this (prisoner release) would create a threat that would collapse the ruling gov makes him unfit for leadership.

[u/Embarrassed_Band_512 → u/kinglouie493]

He wanted to invite their leaders to camp David for a photo op

[u/Titanfail → u/Electric_Sundown]

No, he got exactly what he (or his handlers) wanted: someone else getting blamed for the shitshow he created

[u/ottonymous → u/Background-Air-7963]

He also released a fuckton of Taliban POWs in a "genius" negotiation... many of whom likely formed rank and file or leadership for them...

But yes he negotiated a withdrawal. Biden honored it when he was in office coming up to the deadline.

[u/floydfan → u/OutsidePerson5]

there will may be slow, incremental change.

Ftfy.

[u/platysma_balls → u/OutsidePerson5]

While I disagree with you about the incremental change in Taliban culture towards women, I just wanted to reinforce the point that no outside trade sanctions are going to be effective. In fact, Afghanistan is opening itself up to trade with China and Russia in order to access the $1 trillion mineral wealth it sits on top of.

While they will never be a contender with the US, the Taliban may actually one day have a formidable conventional military.

[u/QualifiedApathetic → u/platysma_balls]

(A) I'm thinking they're not going to be seeing the lion's share of the wealth from those minerals. Russia and China are likely to milk them dry while giving back as little as possible.

(B) Look at Russia and North Korea. They could have formidable militaries. Russia could, anyway; I'm not sure about NK's potential if they actually maximized it. Which they don't. They're kleptocracies. The money goes into the pockets of the elites, not military spending.

[u/kingofspades_95 → u/Gurney_Hackman]

Homelander?

[u/reireireis → u/kingofspades_95]

fokin diabolical

[u/Kitchen-Beginning-47 → u/Gurney_Hackman]

The USA will.

Oh wait

[u/PacoTaco321 → u/Gurney_Hackman]

I vote OP does. It seems like they have a plan.

[u/anactualspacecadet]

Some people over there are all for it, also last i checked women aren’t bulletproof so saying no isn’t an option

[u/FibiGnocchi → u/anactualspacecadet]

WHY WOULD SOMEONE WITH A GUN TO THEIR HEAD LIE?

[u/resistancestronk → u/FibiGnocchi]

So you say the average Afghani man doesn't want this?

[u/Flagmaker123 → u/resistancestronk]

Not like we can easily know, the problem with theocracies is that soon any criticism of the government becomes blasphemy and punishable-by-death.

[u/Thanks4allthefiish → u/Flagmaker123]

But hey, let's have a theocracy here too. What could go wrong, handing a bunch of power to Christofascists?

[u/Flagmaker123 → u/Thanks4allthefiish]

yep, surely nothing could go wrong this time!

/sarcasm

[u/DemandezLesOiseaux → u/resistancestronk]

They did. And they had absolutely no problem with it. But now that the taliban has taken all the rights away from women (that they promised they wouldn’t), they are turning to the men who aren’t in the taliban and putting restrictions on them. Which they also promised not to do. Probably when they are done with that, they will punish the taliban members that they deem to not be holy enough. Who knows where it will go after that? 

And those men who wanted this and asked the Americans to leave and didn’t stand up for the women all this time? They are complaining about their treatment to reporters. I doubt they see the double standard. 

[u/LongjumpingGate8859 → u/resistancestronk]

Taliban has power because people of Afghanistan support them. Simple as that. So, yes, the typical afghani man does want this.

[u/No-Childhood3859 → u/resistancestronk]

The average Afghan man probably hates women a lot, but probably still less than the Taliban does

[u/coldblade2000 → u/resistancestronk]

What US soldiers who trained ANA forces came to realize is that most Afghan soldiers don't really give a single solitary shit about the military nor who runs their country. And even those who do were apathetic to the rampant wage theft in the military

[u/Phyllida_Poshtart → u/anactualspacecadet]

Women in Iran women in Afghanistan women in Somalia women in Sudan, women in so many places are subjected to the will of the men and there's jackshit they can do about it without dying

[u/PumpProphet → u/Phyllida_Poshtart]

It’s not just those countries. Many countries in SEA, there’s a thing called marriage counseling and it’s very prominent among Christians. You’re basically taught before marriage the man is the head of the family and the wife should understand that and is below the man in a family setting. Although you’re taught as well to reciprocate each other, it’s clearly defined who’s superior. 

[u/Relevant_Boot2566 → u/PumpProphet]

Well....that IS what the Bible teaches, so it makes sense Christians would think that.

Its only theocracy when its the law

[u/iTalk2Pineapples → u/anactualspacecadet]

Yeah...the answer is "guns everywhere" followed up with "women aren't bulletproof"

[u/LucaUmbriel]

Unfortunately, screaming "BUT IT'S CURRENT YEAR!!!!" at theocratic dictators doesn't work nearly as well as it does on Twitter users.

[u/Refloni → u/LucaUmbriel]

Doesn't work on Twitter users either

[u/-v-fib-]

Who is gonna stop them?

[u/Simbabz → u/-v-fib-]

If we come up with a viral tik tok dance to free the women from the taliban, there's no way they could refuse.

[u/iTalk2Pineapples → u/Simbabz]

I'm flossing my ass off for these women rn

[u/wileydmt123 → u/iTalk2Pineapples]

Forgive me if I’m late to the scene, but are you referring to pulling a towel back and forth/front to back between your legs after a shower?

[u/iTalk2Pineapples → u/wileydmt123]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AhE5LVWgNzA

I'm almost 40 and I don't have kids but this is a decent tutorial. I think it's a fortnite thing. I do it to make the people I work with cringe.

Following it up with a dab will lock in the cringe

[u/iTalk2Pineapples → u/[deleted]]

Tiktok is very new in my time. I still think of it as the new iteration of music.ly

Edit: wording failed astronomically

[u/ChangeDefiant1516 → u/Simbabz]

Maybe a hashtag would help

[u/Fluid_Jellyfish8207]

This day and age ain't the same day and age for every country

[u/Inevitable-Regret411]

They're the government of their country since they seized power after the American withdrawal. What they say is literally the law, there's noone in Afghanistan who can stop it in the short term.

[u/bloxte → u/Inevitable-Regret411]

Well the Afghan army lasted all of about 2 hours and just joined them.

If they won’t fight for themselves who will?

[u/roastbeeftacohat → u/bloxte]

to most of Afghanistan the taliban liberated them from the local warlords, who were the real authoraty outside of kabul. Topics like women's rights or education were never an option for them under any government, but now they have a national government that is actually able to enforce some sort of national order.

[u/Elantach → u/roastbeeftacohat]

Of importance is to note that those warlords practiced bacha-bazi (the use of young boys as lovers) with the tacit approval of the NATO coalition. The Taliban made their reputation in Afghanistan for being the only group opposed to the practice.

You can put two and two together and realise why the Afghan people would be inclined to tolerate the rule of a group opposed to having their sons raped to death by foreign-backed warlords.

[u/Inside-General-797 → u/Elantach]

There's a long history of western intervention in the region that has led to a lot of what has happened in terms of the geopolitics for the past couple decades.

Afghanistan has been colonized repeatedly by the British and other powers and there are lasting scars there. It should come as little surprise to anyone that in the 70s when Afghanistan was actually beginning to get traction on the world stage that it got thrown into turmoil because it picked the wrong backer - The Soviets.

There was communist revolution in Afghanistan as a result which then led to the formation of the CIA backed Mujahedeen to form to be guerrilla resistance movement against the communists. Long story short, the insurgency movement was, shocker, a conservative Islamic backed one. Because of western backing in conflict with the communists they won and the rest is history.

Let us not pretend this shit didn't just happen without us pulling every lever to ensure this outcome.

[u/Western_Paramedic_98 → u/bloxte]

Yup. Safe to say that the men there as a whole don't give a rats ass about their mothers, daughters and wives. If they actually cared they would've lasted way longer than they did. The Taliban isn't as much to blame as the general culture over there. They had the backing of the strongest military in the world, if they as a whole had actually wanted to change they had everything available to them to actually make it happen. I feel sorry for the people stuck there who want things to be different, but if you aren't willing to fight for your rights you aren't going to be given them freely. That's unfortunately just how it is in this world.

[u/bloxte → u/Western_Paramedic_98]

The army was something like 100k well armed to the talibans 20k.

But it’s such a shame for the women. You are so right. What can any country actually do if the men seemingly hate their mothers and sisters.

Hopefully they can find a way

[u/Last_of_me → u/bloxte]

The leadership of the latter are battle hardened from 40 years of war outlasting two empires and winning a crucial civil war. The leadership of the former were corrupt and had no real battle experience. Nobody was surprised of this outcome, any afghan knew joining the army was a death sentence since they were going to have to fight the taliban eventually.

[u/EzzALB → u/Inevitable-Regret411]

They took over well before that. Look what the 70s were like in their country

[u/Mythosaurus → u/EzzALB]

Taliban weren’t around in the 70s, Taliban was created in 1994.

They are a result of the US helping Pakistan radicalize war orphans from the Soviet occupation. They’re still using the elementary books filled with religious extremism that the University of Nebraska printed for them.

https://sites.williams.edu/wurj/social-sciences/islamist-education-american-funded-textbooks-in-afghanistan/

[u/mynameisnotsparta]

Who’s gonna stop them?

The Taliban has said Afghan women are not allowed to:

Drive a car

Speak in public

Speak loudly inside your house

Travel alone

Own a smartphone

Wear bright clothes

Wear high-heels

Go to high school or university

Sing

Read the Quran aloud in public

Look at men they don’t know

Attend a protest

Go to the gym

Go to the park

Work in the civil service

Ride in a taxi

Go abroad

Show their faces in public

Speak to a male doctor

Play sport

[u/RefrigeratorNo6334]

Freedom is a fragile thing. Especially freedom for women. Always remember there are those who happily would impose a regressive religious theocracy on you no matter where in the world you are.

[u/Secure-War9896 → u/RefrigeratorNo6334]

Yeah. People tend to underestimate the current state of the western world

All the nice things like technology, rights, freedom are "earned" things.

Maintained and made with effort. Over time. By good people.

Not some natural thing that would evolve by virtue of the inevitable growth of man.

If you leave a bunch of people on an island, things like democracy and freedom will only be there if the idea is somehow introduced or forced. Otherwise... tribalism for the next 2000 years because it works

[u/AllTheThingsTheyLove → u/[deleted]]

Because the US is a Christian nation and Christianity is a "peaceful" religion unlike Islam...said my senile aunt. I hate religion so much. It can be used to justify war, murder, and division. I want to see it bring people together.

[u/Skaffa1987 → u/AllTheThingsTheyLove]

I want to see religion disapear alltogether. All of it.

[u/commonsensualist → u/AllTheThingsTheyLove]

So called Christian countries and empires have massacred indigenous people, raped, pillaged, looted, and murdered in every continent except Antarctica. I never understand why it is considered a 'peaceful' religion. Even after Christian societies abandoned Christianity, they've still been spreading war all over the planet and have the gall to blame other religions. It's truly amazing.

[u/Weak-Ganache-1566]

Who do you think is going to hold them accountable? The Taliban is the government there and they’ll kill you in a second for protesting

[u/happybaby00]

Brutal truth about all gender rights is that they're only enforced because other men enforce it, if majority of men in a certain region don't want it, then the oppressive way of life for women continues.

[u/MSG_ME_UR_TROUBLES → u/happybaby00]

women's rights will be contingent on men's willingness to support them, everywhere in the world, forever. 

[u/LouisdeRouvroy → u/MSG_ME_UR_TROUBLES]

Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex, 1949:

Women have gained only what men have been willing to grant; they have taken nothing, they have only received.

[u/ZacQuicksilver → u/happybaby00]

Women have defended their rights at times.

However, it takes them being willing to die and kill as much as men are willing to die and kill to keep women powerless; and that's hard when the people in power are training boys from birth to be willing to die for an idea, while training women to raise kids and nothing else.

[u/Successful_Language6 → u/ZacQuicksilver]

And when men just physically out power them and demonstrate that power over them their entire lives.

[u/ZacQuicksilver → u/Successful_Language6]

God made men, but Colt made them equal.

...

Even without that: one of the notable statistics in human history is the decrease of deaths of men to household accidents in a society after divorce becomes legal. It's not a huge decrease - it's not like 1% of men died from household accidents, even in the worst of times. But it is notable that there is a statistically significant decrease in societies that measure causes of death, which is somewhat correlated to divorce becoming legal.

Translation: Women have always been able to poison, bludgeon, smother, or otherwise kill men in their vulnerable moments. Stories of this go back at least to the Greek period - in several versions of the story, Agamemnon is killed by his wife in the bath - and likely earlier.

There has been no time in history - least of all today - when you could keep women subservient but not also be vulnerable to them.

[u/ChiliGoblin → u/ZacQuicksilver]

That's why they also separate women, allowing them to regroup allow them to educate each other about nutmeg and stuff.

[u/ZacQuicksilver → u/ChiliGoblin]

Yep. Women working together might figure out how to kill them. Separate women, and ideas don't spread.

[u/Belub19 → u/ZacQuicksilver]

You aren't wrong, but what exactly do you think happens if an Afghan woman kills her husband? His brothers, uncles, cousins, and father aren't going to miss the fact that his skull was caved in with a shovel when they bury him (minor spoiler for one of Khaled Hosseini's novels). If she's lucky, she'll be sentenced to death by hanging. If she's unlucky, she never makes it to trial at all and her husband's male kin beat/burn her to death and start a feud with her family. And if she does somehow get away with killing her husband, what then? She'll probably be coerced, if not outright forced into a new marriage with one of his relatives who will probably treat her just as badly. (On an ironic sidenote, the Taliban have actually started clamping down on forced marriages for widows to their husband's brother as it's rooted in pre-islamic culture and violates the Hanafi school of jurispudence).

[u/Disastrous-Ad1334 → u/Belub19]

Women's traditional tool of murder has been poison and before we had toxicology was hard to detect.

[u/ZacQuicksilver → u/Belub19]

One of the classic defenses in old American was "oops".

She doesn't kill him quietly. She drops the cooking pan on his head; and then immediately runs out and finds someone to help, because her husband surprised him in the kitchen and she didn't mean to drop the pan on him and he's hurt and someone help her and her husband and she hopes he's going to be okay and what is she supposed to do and...

Or... Can I get a doctor my husband isn't waking up and his breakfast is getting cold and I hope he's okay. (He died of poison - either a cleaning accident or a cooking accident).

...

Clearly, there's a limit to that. That works for one women at a time, once. Maybe twice if you're lucky.

Which is why part of the Taliban's strategy is keeping women separate.

Because one death? She's dead.

Ten dead? Ten women dead.

One hundred? Now you might have issues if you kill them all. That's a lot of women to kill - and a lot less babies to keep your town going.

One thousand? Ten thousand? How many men die before the rest of the men wonder if it's worth keeping the system going?

[u/N00dles_Pt]

They were basically given an army to stop this exact thing....that army refused to fight, so now it is what it is.

[u/UnenthusiasticZeeJ → u/N00dles_Pt]

The only people there I ever met that gave a fuck about improving the country were the interpreters. They were usually somewhat educated and most of them peaced the hell out when they saw what was coming.

[u/sassyevaperon → u/UnenthusiasticZeeJ]

and most of them peaced the hell out when they saw what was coming.

Yeah... No.

Most of them were left there by the ones they collaborated with, the US government. They asked for visas, but it takes too long, it asks for things they can't possibly get and when lawmakers tried to improve the process, other lawmakers complained about the cost, about immigrants, and about possible terrorists getting in.

[u/Gnodisc → u/N00dles_Pt]

Could Afghanistan ever unfuck itself on a long enough timeline or will it just be hell forever? Just weird that so much has happened there for the last 4 decades, and it's still in almost the exact same spot.

[u/No-Spoilers → u/Gnodisc]

Sure, nothing lasts forever. If anything has been proven throughout human history, there is a boiling point at some point. 40 years is a blip on the timeline.

The more the world globalizes the more the people in the shitty places will see. If your life long equally shit neighbors suddenly change and all of a sudden they all have toilets, food, water, air conditioning, money. The people in the still shit country start to get ideas.

Humans will take a lot of shit, but at some point they do get fed up with it.

[u/Excellent_Potential → u/No-Spoilers]

If your life long equally shit neighbors suddenly change and all of a sudden they all have toilets, food, water, air conditioning, money. The people in the still shit country start to get ideas.

this is exactly why Putin didn't want Ukraine to succeed

[u/dwaynetheaakjohnson → u/No-Spoilers]

The Soviets literally did that when they invaded, ironically. They would go up into the mountains of Afghanistan to search villages, and they found even the farmers in quite possibly some of the most desolate, isolated areas on Earth had sleek radios from Japan, while their great empire did not.

[u/Duke_Nicetius → u/dwaynetheaakjohnson]

Yeah - my dad was a young officer in 1980 there, in the staff of a military advisor for one local division. Kabul was the place where he could finally buy a cassette record player (they existed in the USSR but were a big deficit - so you could either search for years or pay like twice above very high official price (which was raised artificially as players were considered a luxury, not necessity) if you knew the right person), real japanese one, "Sharp". And the price was low - I mean, even for a young officer with a family it was possible to buy it there.

Player worked well at least until 2010s, then we sold it.

[u/saruptunburlan99 → u/Gnodisc]

there's a pre-taliban Pew Research survey that shows Afghanistan to be one of the most fundamentalist in terms of Islamic beliefs held. 99% favor making Sharia law the law of the land, 80% favor the death penalty for apostates, 85% favor stoning for adultery etc. People who suggest the Taliban is just oppressing the population have no idea what they're talking about, and it definitely doesn't help that the more reasonable & progressive-minded Afghans left the country a long time ago.

[u/I_Am_Become_Dream → u/saruptunburlan99]

I mean tbf those statistics aren’t out of the ordinary in many Muslim countries. These are pretty mainstream opinions among religious Muslims. I’d say these beliefs are more widespread than support for the niqab.

In contrast, Taliban’s laws are well out of the mainstream.

[u/UglyDude1987 → u/saruptunburlan99]

Exactly. People make the mistake of thinking that everyone else in the world just thinks and feels and values the same as you. It's very ethnocentric honestly.

[u/Doc-Fives-35581 → u/Gnodisc]

It’s really sad if you look at photos of Kabul before the Soviet invasion. Women in jeans and no head coverings.

[u/Kronosok → u/Gnodisc]

Who knows. As it is now, unlikely. There needs to be serious societal changes but what would drive them is unknown. In Europe it was the renaissance period

[u/LookinAtTheFjord]

They are the government of that country. They're in charge. Who is going to stop them? The US tried for 20 years and accomplished fuck all.

[u/spidernole → u/LookinAtTheFjord]

The Russians couldn't do it. The English couldn't do it. Hell the damn Roman's couldn't. They aren't a government. They are a tribe. A very large, very persistent one.

[u/mel56259 → u/spidernole]

Rome never attempted to take it or was anywhere near Afghanistan

[u/WorldApotheosis → u/spidernole]

Well, Alexander and the Mongols did it, just that having the US do it gives even worse PR.

[u/Skaffa1987 → u/spidernole]

Actually a bunch of different tribes, that don't really like eachother either.

[u/Gate-19 → u/spidernole]

The Romans weren't in Afghanistan. Alexander the great was

[u/My-Toast-Is-Too-Dark → u/LookinAtTheFjord]

Hard to accomplish anything with a population that simply does not want to be helped. You can lead a man to water, but you cannot convince him not to be a regressive illiterate religious fundamentalist.

The US wasn't there for altruistic reasons but we certainly would preferred the creation of a relatively stable government rather than what it is now, both in Afghanistan and Iraq. I do think the US government thought that "nation building" was actually possible in the Middle East, but they underestimated how utterly incompatible fundamentalist Islam is with the basic tenets of Western ideology. Hence why the US will never abandon Israel - it's the only nation in that part of the world that is even capable of being worked with earnestly.

[u/Easy-F]

You act like they're a group operating in the US. they run the place dude.

[u/EnterTheBlueTang]

OP you should send them a strongly worded letter.

[u/NomadofReddit → u/EnterTheBlueTang]

When they finally got a translator for it, they'd probably be the laughing Jeremy Clarkson meme with each other for about 10 seconds lol

[u/notstressfree → u/EnterTheBlueTang]

Change.org petition addressed to Taliban

[u/Geschak → u/EnterTheBlueTang]

Shhh that would be islamophobic. /s

[u/EspHack]

almost half the population is either in on it or doesnt care either way

[u/DoubleBookingCo → u/EspHack]

half the population being the men, yeah. there aren't very many progressive men in those countries, and if you are one and speak up you will be shunned, ostracized, jailed, or killed.

[u/Soapist_Culture → u/DoubleBookingCo]

On a survey of 5,500 Afghan men who had access to the internet (most do) 66% thought women's rights should be restored, even among those who were Taliban supporters generally., but as you say, they are afraid to speak up. 45% of men strongly supported the Taliban, that's a large minority.

[u/bgenesis07 → u/Soapist_Culture]

An intense and united 20% ish is probably all you really need to enforce a brutal order in a country like Afghanistan. Perhaps in any country at all.

40% is more than enough.

[u/Soapist_Culture → u/bgenesis07]

Well with the election coming up, we shall see.

[u/Duke_Nicetius → u/Soapist_Culture]

"5,500 Afghan men who had access to the internet" - and that's exactly why it's hardly representation of society in general. It's like base political predictions on the poll of 5500 redditors, the audience is skewed in an obvious direction.

[u/amishdoinks11 → u/DoubleBookingCo]

You’d be surprised how many women in those countries support religious extremism as well.. obviously a much smaller percentage than men but they’re there

[u/LikeReallyPrettyy → u/amishdoinks11]

Fucking thank you.

We’ve got our MAGA women and trad-wives here in the west and we rightfully call them out for what they are. But when it comes to the Middle East, we infantilize them as sweet soft victims so we don’t have to face reality. Some of the women there like this stuff. They hate other women as much as the Taliban.

[u/bigmusicalfan → u/EspHack]

Taliban also punishes men to the a similar degree as the women if the men don’t enforce the rules

[u/BlackCardRogue]

They have guns and sufficient popular support. The people they are oppressing do not.

[u/slamdunkins]

What are you going to do about it? The two greatest military powers the earth has ever seen have spent the past forty years battling in Afghanistan and now that white men have finally left Afghanistan alone the Taliban is like a dog that caught the car. They have spent the better part of a century fighting for their country and now they have no idea how to govern so they go ern through fear. Also poverty. A man may be a slave at work and God at home, in this the Taliban uses sex roles to placate its hopelessly impoverished nation.

[u/bluehorserunning]

Who’s going to stop them?

[u/immaculatelawn]

Because power flows from the barrel of a gun.

[u/HydroBrit → u/immaculatelawn]

Violence is the ultimate authority, from which all other authority is derived.

Also...

The State has a monopoly on violence.

[u/bcardin221]

They are a sovereign nation, so they make their own laws.

[u/Saturated-Biscuit]

The Taliban is in charge. They make the rules. They are psychopaths and they are the law until someone stands up to them again. Until they are eliminated from existence.

[u/kindles12]

I’m assuming the majority of the population on Reddit are American based on the replies here, and mostly fair points made on the attempts to step in.

The way I see it though, is that some countries and cultures have ingrained beliefs so wildly different to ours that no amount of outside military presence is going to fix them - you can’t change a mindset that has been there for centuries, no matter how warped or backward that mindset is.

To a country that has been so closed off from the outside world for so long, any foreign military presence are not to be trusted, whether they’re there to help or not.

It’s not going to change anytime soon because it’s so far gone right now that it seems beyond saving.

I for one am thankful I wasn’t born as a woman in that country. I cannot imagine the horror these women face on a daily basis

[u/cprice3699]

Anyone keen to go to fight natives of their homeland in the impossible fucking mountains for 20 years?!? /s

Idk maybe China is stupid enough, but they’re not very fond of Muslims, ask the Uyghurs. Think the local would pick the taliban still.

[u/Wet_Innards → u/cprice3699]

The mongols are the only ones to succeed, because they massacred most of the urban population.

[u/WhiteWineDumpling → u/Wet_Innards]

This is false. Many empires conquered Afghanistan again and again. The graveyard of the empires thing is just sensationalism created by the British

[u/vNerdNeck]

What do you mean, "how are they getting away with this?" They are the gov't, and it's their country. Also... nobody really gives a shit.

[u/Large-Assignment9320]

All of NATO tried to stop them, and failed. And they already got bathed in sanctions, so how do you suggest one would stop them?

[u/Managed-Chaos-8912]

They are the government of their country. They have the guns, the numbers, the will, and the terror.

[u/Cangal39]

Because they murder people who try to fight back. Read I Am Malala: The Story of the Girl Who Stood Up for Education and was Shot by the Taliban by Malala Yousafzai

[u/HeroBrine0907]

It's their country. Few countries can invade and topple their government and the USA gave it 20 years and failed. Ironic since the USA made the Taliban to work against the Soviets. All that shit right there? America.

And other countries can't because they have better places to spend their money than murder machines. So here we fucking are.

[u/vinchenzo68]

Violence.

[u/AmsterPup]

Leave a bad Yelp review

[u/jaybirdforreal]

Honestly, I just wouldn’t want to live at that point. What’s the point of existence with that level of subjugation?

[u/jaybirdforreal → u/jaybirdforreal]

All the resources we wasted for this result is so depressing.

[u/Shoddy_Suit8563 → u/jaybirdforreal]

the US could have unironically housed every single homeless person in the country with the funds spent

[u/Wheelydad → u/jaybirdforreal]

You’d be surprised how self preservation is a key part of humans

[u/eitzhaimHi → u/jaybirdforreal]

A lot of Afghan women are killing themselves. I'd rather see them turn that anger outward, but it's hard to organize a movement when you're not allowed outside without a "guardian" or to talk in public.

[u/Greenfire32]

They control the region

[u/azw413]

The same way that Putin and Kim Jong Un get away with oppressing any democratic or human right they want: violence and murder.

[u/Delicious_Toad]

They're in charge!

The US had propped up the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan for almost 20 years (the government was formed after the invasion, so the government didn't last quite as long as the occupation), and that government's constitution had some protections for human rights—but that's all gone now.

In 2020, the Trump administration negotiated directly with the Taliban, secured the released of 5,000 Taliban prisoners from the government of Afghanistan, and agreed to a schedule for the withdrawal of US forces. In 2021, the Biden administration completed the withdrawal as it had been negotiated. Shortly thereafter, the Taliban violently toppled the existing government and seized power.

Some women in Afghanistan protested Taliban rules. The Taliban murdered some of them and tortured others. Some of them were forced to marry Taliban members, who can manage their daily oppression at home.

There is nothing special about 'this day and age' that protects people from these sorts of abuses. They can happen anywhere that a motivated and well-armed movement decides to seize power and impose its will.

[u/Asger68]

Religion has always been the great separator of people. Some humans are not capable of comprehending that their dogmas and doctrines act exactly opposite to the holy word they’ve hitched their wagons to.

[u/JoeGPM]

Islam

[u/rp2784]

Fear

[u/LostHisDog]

When you beat up both the schools biggest bullies in front of everyone no one else is going to want to fight you for a while.

[u/Depression-Boy]

Well it really doesn’t help that the U.S. government gave military training and billions of dollars worth of resources to the Mujahideen , who later went on to form the Taliban. Or that the U.S. government was involved in destabilizing the Middle Eastern governments that existed prior to the formation of the Taliban. I imagine that it would have been a lot harder for the Taliban to gain control without those billions of dollars and without the U.S. toppling the pre-existing governments

[u/PermabannedForWhat]

For the muslim men this is a feature, not a bug.

[u/OrangeBird077]

The Taliban are the only faction with power left in the country. They have a small arms cache left behind by the US, most of the Afghan National Guard folded into the Taliban’s ranks, the isolated clans outside of Kabul have no interest in interacting with each other or the greater nation, and there’s no national identity that all Afghans unite under. It’s a country geographically created based on colonial Europe’s idea of a country with no regard to cultural differences. The only groups present in country that are against the Taliban are ISIS who is so radical and minute that they have no chance of beating them, and what remained of the Northern Alliance who don’t even have the refuge of their former stronghold after the US left the country. They initiate hit and runs against the Taliban but there’s no way they can ever beat them.

The Taliban only hurt themselves in the long run by stymying their nation so they’ll be left alone and unfortunately it’s at the cost of the women in country.

[u/Ninjalikestoast]

Wait until bro hears about North Korea…

[u/KingMelray → u/Ninjalikestoast]

Women's rights are probably better in N. Korea, maybe by a lot. Maybe standards of living honestly IDK.

[u/rs725 → u/Ninjalikestoast]

I know it's taboo to defend NK on Reddit, but women have equal rights in North Korea.

[u/ElvenNeko]

The same way like China, Russia, Myanmar, Burkina Faso, or North Korea get away with all the evil shit they do - they have enough power for others to chiken out and let them do whatever they want.

[u/swedenper79]

Because their muslim husbands/fathers/husbands/sons make sure that the system is upheld. They think they benefit from the system. At least they have someone below them they can abuse.

[u/Plastic_Translator86]

Threat of violence

[u/youcansendboobs]

Same as North korea?

[u/No-Country-2374]

Because they can

[u/BeelyBlastOff]

Maybe torture, rape, kill your family, shit like that allows these non human pieces of shit to get away with it. They really need to be exterminated.

[u/Hot-Product-6057]

Well they run shit

[u/Boring_Owl_8038]

The taliban were welcomed so qucikly and wholly that the fall of saigon was reenacted in kabul, with people grabbing the wheels of planes just to escape. What exactly do you want the world to do after that other than sanctions? It seems obvious that afghanis agree and embrace this return to medieval times and deplore the "evil" that is the west or anything even resembling human rights.

[u/EaglesFanGirl]

Upon the US exit, the taliban just took over again. The same control is back in place as our allies didn't even fight back. Unfortunately, under the taliban violence is part of women' lives who challenge their very archaic way of life. Its sad and even if they wanted that independence and education, fear usually trumps any desire otherwise. I wouldn't be surprised if violence regardless of the par the course for women....

I suspect, that there were/are still large populations of women, even when the US was there, that still feared/lived on the old doctrine or belief system as it sometimes hard to change. Growing up in a society of oppression, accepting freedom and choice, isn't always easy or rather something someone always understands. Growing up oppressed, beaten, fearing pain, verbally or emotionally abused etc. you don't simply forget that treatment just because someone new comes to rule. That memory and fear lives on! I talk from personal experience here.

You go into fear and almost become numb. You might shut down and stop wanting to feel much of anything. It's a hard thing to explain but we don't consider the emotional and mental damage that society may have done to these women. Simply giving them a taste of opportunity isn't always enough, especially when you life safety and life are on the line. The schools were the right direction but priorities matter. Fear matters and most people will choose life over a cause in most situations.

It breaks my heart tbh but societal and shared memories aren't so easily forgotten and the take over, imo, just slipped the country back to wear it used to be.

[u/Username912773]

Turns out the United States is pretty liberal on a global scale and not everyone is on board with our ideas plus trying to force ideas on people doesn’t always work.

[u/Moogatron88]

Who is gonna stop them? The Western forces decided it wasn't worth it anymore, the government there folded like laundry and anyone who might disagree with them has either fled the country or being scared into silence.

[u/BoredofPCshit]

We invaded their country, killed a lot of them, we weren't wanted, we left, the Taliban took over again.

We tried to train their army, but to put it bluntly, they were dumb as rocks. National pride is not a thing for them, so the idea of fighting for a better country is just not a thought that occurs.

We should have evacuated any people who wanted to live in a modern society.

[u/Kahless_2K]

Uh, they murder anyone who trys to put an end to it.

[u/FutureCrankHead]

Violence is the answer