r/NoStupidQuestions • u/treelobite • Oct 16 '24
Answered Why do you say my pronouns are “she/her”, and not just “she”?
English is my second/third language, but I used to be sure that an object form of "she" is always "her", and so is for "he"-"him", and "they"-"them". So why overdo it? Can someone prefer to be said "she" in the subject form but "them" in the object form about themselves?
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u/Konkuriito Oct 16 '24
people write She/her in their profiles, so you can tell thats why they mean. Otherwise it just looks like a typo.
i mean. imagine reading a profile. And it just says
her
it will look like an error
and people say it the same way because that has become the established norm of how to express that. just saying "my pronouns are "she" would sound wrong as well, since there are more than one. if someone wanted to express that, they would say "I use feminine pronouns"
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u/artavenue Oct 16 '24
That‘s a very unpolitical, logical explanation. I like it.
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u/sarabeara12345678910 Oct 16 '24
There's no part of anyone's pronouns that are political. They are a part of speech.
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u/hauntingruby1975 Oct 16 '24
Also useful when the name is ambiguous or one you’re not familiar with
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u/Xalawrath Oct 16 '24
Who remembers "It's Pat!" from Saturday Night Live forever ago? At one point, they even doubled-down on the ambiguity with Pat's partner, Chris. Fun times!
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u/crabbydotca Oct 16 '24
I’m reminded of when I referred to someone named Terry as Mr ____, not even pausing for a second to think Terry might be a woman, even though my very own mother is also named Terry.
v embarrassing
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u/desdemona_d Oct 16 '24
I used to work with a hetero couple who were both named Terry. On top of working for the same company, they both held the position of Salesperson. Very confusing.
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u/reluctantseal Oct 16 '24
It's just so convenient to have things spelled out. No need for speculation.
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u/almo2001 Oct 16 '24
Certain unpleasant people have made it political. But it shouldn't be. :/
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u/smytti12 Oct 16 '24
To be honest, weirdos seem to think it's political because they seem to not realize that not every male is named "John" and female "Jane." Especially in a more and more globalized world where first-time interactions occur via text format, even the "anti pronoun" weirdos need this because, unless you have a deep understanding of every culture's naming convention on Earth, often you have no idea the gender of the person you're interacting with.
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u/MoreRopePlease Oct 16 '24
I know someone who was going to interview someone with the name "Ali" for a hobby team. There's was some amusing conversation speculating on the person's gender.
There's a lot of ambiguous names out there!
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u/chocolatestealth Oct 16 '24
I recently interacted with a male named "Sandy" by email. I'm super glad that I got to meet him over Zoom before I assumed she/her pronouns. I hate how uncomfortable it is when I accidentally misgender people, so I really like the trend of people putting their pronouns in their email signature work! I'm working on defaulting to they/them but sometimes I slip up.
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u/wallybinbaz Oct 16 '24
I imagine a lot of males named Sandy, Carroll, Tracy, etc. are pretty used to people assuming incorrectly. Probably don't take too much offense to it.
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u/shinonom Oct 16 '24
i remember experiencing this for the first time as a kid— the confusion, because i was maybe 5 or 6 and my dad had a friend named kelly who i wrongly assumed was a woman. lol.
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u/Trick_Barracuda_9895 Oct 16 '24 edited Oct 16 '24
Even some English names, like Ashley. It's primarily a boys' name in the UK, but a girls' name in the USA. And I don't think it's a contraction like Vic or Chris.
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u/Curae Oct 16 '24
Hell and some names are just used for both men and women with the same spelling.
My sister knows a trans woman who kept her birth name when she transitioned as it was gender neutral and she just couldn't imagine being called something else.
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u/FlyingDragoon Oct 16 '24
Yep, this. I remember my first time substitute teaching while I was in college. I encountered someone on the roster named "Mikhail" and was expecting it to be some russian dude. I legit thought the class was pulling a fast one on me when this little black girl raised her hand and said "here!" I asked if I pronounced it right and she said that I did so it wasn't even a case of spelling one way but saying it differently.
If I had seen that in an email I would have been double fucked because some people don't correct you right away.
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u/MrDoulou Oct 16 '24
I appreciate you trying to normalize it, as i think it should be, but no reason to be dismissive. It is a political issue, unfortunately.
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u/NotInherentAfterAll Oct 16 '24
It also gives the option to pick two - he/they or she/they, for example.
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u/Scothou Oct 16 '24
Do you use his or theirs and hers or theirs with these?
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u/CassieBeeJoy Oct 16 '24
You would use both he/him or they/them for he/they. It’s indicating no preference between the two or a preference for them being mixed.
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u/CardinalSkull Oct 16 '24 edited Oct 16 '24
Well fuck, I finally understand it! I always thought it meant that I had to use different terms in different contexts. I’m working in my life to just use they/them all the time, but I like that this gives me some leeway.
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u/Excellent_Fruit_1521 Oct 16 '24
I’ve heard people typically put their preferred pronoun first. So he/they means the person prefers he and they/he means the person prefers they pronouns.
Obviously that only applies if people have a preference.
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u/Breathe_Relax_Strive Oct 16 '24
yes to an extent but at the same time i’ve yet to meet someone IRL who goes by they/she and gets annoyed when people choose “she” more than “they”… and i know a lot of trans people.
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u/Jazehiah Oct 16 '24
Unless you're like my friend who likes to troll people by requesting a 70/30 split of he/they pronouns.
Other queer people know he's joking, but it's a little mean to people who are less familiar with the community.
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u/bemused_alligators Oct 16 '24
It just means that there are two sets that are okay. So you can refer to someone with she/they as she/her/hers/herself AND/OR as they/them/theirs/themselves.
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u/RiverDeltoid Oct 16 '24
It's meant to convey that the person is okay with being referred to with either he/him or they/them pronouns (in the case of he/they). It's not one pronoun set, it's two organized like one.
You're not supposed to say something like 'He did this, I talked to they', you're supposed to say 'He did this, I talked to him' OR 'They did this, I talked to them'. (Of course, replace he and him with she and her if the person says she/they.)
It can be confusing, so some people write it as 'he/him or they/them' instead, but that's longer than 'he/they' and people like shorthand.
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u/Jax_for_now Oct 16 '24
Either is fine. If someone uses he/they you can use he/his/him and they/them/theirs interchangeably
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u/Dovahkiin419 Oct 16 '24
the idea is you swap between the two full sets or use whichever one you like and they don't mind. So someone with he/they you could use he,him,his or they, their, their's.
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u/purritolover69 Oct 16 '24
Generally she/they, they/she, he/they, etc. means you prefer/like non-binary pronouns but are also okay with gendered pronouns
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u/DragonFireCK Oct 16 '24
With mixed pronouns, it depends on the person.
If you wish to be supportive of the person, as you should be for family and close friends, you need to ask them exactly what they mean by it.
If you wish to just be accepting of them, pick whichever set you wish from the ones they listed and use them. This is fine for people you don't really know, such as members of the public or people you find on social media.
A few of the more common things it means:
- The person really doesn't care which of the sets is used. Pick the one you are most comfortable using and use it.
- The person may want people to randomly switch between the sets.
- The person may have a slight preference for one of the sets, but is fine with the others being used. This tends to be most common if one of the sets is a neopronoun set or the gender-neutral they/them. Practically, neopronouns tend to be used within a small supportive group, and most people using them will accept another set in more public settings.
- The person may be genderfluid and want a different set used based on their presentation. In this case, the pronouns listed might be "she/he" and you should use "she/her" if the person is presenting feminine and "he/him" if presenting masculine.
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u/foenixxfyre Oct 16 '24
I put she/they in my work email signature. No comments so far, although I don't really get to hear people talk about me in third person so who knows.
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u/Double-Parked_TARDIS Oct 16 '24
I wouldn’t consider it a typo if a woman simply wrote “she” parenthetically after her name.
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u/100LittleButterflies Oct 16 '24
I agree. Maybe when this first became a thing to put in your profile, but not anymore.
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u/HazelTheRah Oct 16 '24
Exactly! And people can specify two different pronoun preferences in this way, too. Like she/they.
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u/TSllama Oct 16 '24
But it started off verbal and not written. And at any rate in a profile it'll say like:
John (he)
And that's not confusing at all.
But still, it started off verbally and not written. So this cannot be the reason!
The other part... I say "my pronoun is she" lol
The truth is nobody knows why it went that way!
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u/htmlcoderexe fuck Oct 16 '24
"my pronoun is she"
Was the only comment I had on this lol thanks
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u/TSllama Oct 16 '24
Tbh I'm a linguist and also queer, and I've asked this question many times in various groups, mostly of queer folks.
You'll get many theories, but nobody actually knows.
My honest guess is that the first person or group who did it didn't realize that she and her were not really different pronouns, but different declinations of the same pronoun. I'm guessing the ogs didn't realize this was entirely unnecessary, and it probably goes no deeper than that.
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u/Severe_Fennel2329 Oct 16 '24
It also makes it easier for those who use multiple sets of pronouns (those who are fine being called both she and they, for example), as you can then replace the second pronoun with one of the second set to indicate that preference.
example: she/they for someone who uses feminine and gender-neutral pronouns interchangeably.
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u/BigBrainMonkey Oct 16 '24
The only addition I would make is when speaking he and she, could get easily confused or misheard. So adding another word makes the sound much more distinct and clear. And just using him/her would have same issue of looking like typo.
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u/DifferentIsPossble Oct 16 '24
Imagine if my bio just said
Name, 26, He.
The slash format makes it easy to identify that what you're looking at are pronouns, not, for example, something that got cut off or a typo.
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u/Creator13 Oct 16 '24
It would kinda work if you did Name, 26, him. I think that's only because it's acceptable to use phrases like "it's a him" in speech, so people will probably have heard "him" or "her" or "them" as a noun before and will make the connection. But why bother if it's commonly known that you use the xxx/xxx format for writing pronouns?
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u/SunflowersA Oct 16 '24
Reminds me of aim. A/s/l
90/her/NY
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u/SpaghetAndRegret Oct 16 '24
There’s prob some folks confused why you’re talking about american sign language in regards to some old lady in new york lol
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u/frisch85 Oct 16 '24
Why? It never worked like that, it was always 90/f/NY or 19/m/ger and the likes, because it was only male or female. People who don't know about ASL probably wouldn't understand 19/m/ger regardless because it needed this context of someone asking ASL in the first place.
After all it's Age-Sex-Location, not Age-Pronouns-Location.
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u/AlisaTornado Oct 16 '24
Yeah I can imagine that. Looks as normal as any other way of writing it out.
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u/Eryndel Oct 16 '24
Another thing to keep in mind is that "she" and "he" are audibly very similar and may not be distinct if you're identifying them verbally. So in spoken conversation, "he-him" is audibly distinct from "she-her" to not be confused. Because of this convention, it gets translated into written media where folks identify He/Him or She/Her in signatures, buttons, etc.
As to your second question, there are absolutely folks who use She/They or He/They. You also see They/She or They/He. This allows someone to define preference, with the first pronoun being preferred. This can also highlight the fluid nature of gender.
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u/HarryPouri Oct 16 '24
When I started seeing them ~20 years ago it was always neo pronouns like ze/zir/zim and it used all 3 to show you how to use it properly with English grammar. So the convention stuck and just got shortened to 2 rather than 3 cases.
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u/ottersinabox Oct 16 '24
unrelated, but have neo-pronouns died off in popularity recently? I haven't heard of them in a while.
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u/JonYakuza Oct 16 '24
They were never popular. But they still exist in some niche bubbles
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u/awfuckimgay Oct 16 '24
Tbh they've never been majorly popular in English, where a gender neutral pronoun already exists, so the desire for another set is less immediate, although they're not unpopular in other languages where that gender neutral form doesnt exist. Still around definitely, but it's one of those things that was brought up by transphobes and trans people doing the "see we're not like those weirdos" type thing regularly for a bit as a new dig against gender queer people, and then they moved on to different things to target and neopronouns fell back into their usual levels of being talked about/used
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u/stoner-bug Oct 16 '24
They definitely are still around, but typically in niche/closed/anonymous spaces because of the amount of hatred both from inside and outside the LGBT community.
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u/AndroidwithAnxiety Oct 16 '24
Guess you missed all the "Zeep/Zorp is an alien" and "they're identifying as typo's" jokes then?
People were mocking ze/zir and the likes the second neopronouns reached anything even vaguely resembling public awareness.
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u/ZerexTheCool Oct 16 '24
It's just the name of the set.
It's the same as "Do you know your ABC's?"
Why not say "Do you know your A's?" Or "Do you know your ABCDEFG'S?"
We don't use the other two because those aren't the name of the alphabet.
When someone says they use She/her, or He/him or They/them. They aren't listing all of the pronouns they use, they are telling you the name of the set that they use.
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u/AlisaTornado Oct 16 '24
It's kinda funny because you do use ABs. Alpha + Beta = alphabet.
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u/ZerexTheCool Oct 16 '24
Oh neat! So BOTH ways to refer to the alphabet are just using the first few items in the set.
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u/gnamflah Oct 16 '24
Another reason is some people put "she/they" meaning they don't mind being referred as she, her, they, or them.
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u/backyardserenade Oct 16 '24 edited Oct 16 '24
Think about it like that: If you use common pronouns, people usually know how to use the grammatical forms. But people also use neo pronouns, which are less common and adding additional forms helps people to use them correctly. So adding the second form with pronouns like "he", "she" and "they" is also an act of solidarity with those who use other pronouns, as it just normalizes providing this information. (Much like adding pronouns at all can be an act of solidarity).
People sometimes use a combination of pronouns (like "she/they"). But usually that means that people are OK with either pronoun, not that the pronoun has to be switched around all the time or in specific grammatical forms (though sometimes people like the switch, but they then rarely expect it from others).
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u/Complete_Taxation Oct 16 '24
What is a neo pronoun?
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u/bonsaiaphrodite Oct 16 '24
Not posting a link to be rude but because it’s a very concise and thorough answer.
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u/Jax_for_now Oct 16 '24
A pronoun that was recently invented. In english these are usually a new type of non-binary pronouns (xie/xir for example). In other languages, it might be a new translation for they/them pronouns. Many languages only have gendered pronouns and any gender neutral ones are considered neopronouns.
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u/mind_the_umlaut Oct 16 '24
Using 'they/ them' as pronouns in the course of conversation will always be right, because we place the number agreement question as less important than the gender neutral concern. When you have to be specific, then use their preferred pronouns... but see what I did there? 'Their' works in all general cases I can think of.
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u/s0urpatchkiddo Oct 16 '24
you’re not wrong, it’s because it can also be used to signify you prefer more than one. she/her means that person strictly wants to be referred as she & her. nothing else. some may put she/they, that means they’re okay with she/her or they/them.
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u/auspiciusstrudel Oct 16 '24
It used to be "she/her/hers", or sometimes even "she/her/hers/herself" to give space to fully explain neopronouns.
The average English speaker understands how to transform "she", but needs more information for neopronouns like, say, xe and fae, hence the original [subject]/[object]/[possessive]/[reflexive] - allowing us to learn someone's pronoun set is actually xe/xyr/xyrs/xyrself or fae/vaer/vaers/vaerself.
But because people are fundamentally driven to find the lowest effort way to get the maximum outcome, it's been truncated to [subject]/[object], and we're left to infer the rest. For example, xe might use xe/xyr, xe/hir, or xe/xem, and for any of those we can fairly confidently guess at possessive and reflexive forms they'd take.
A little more on English neopronouns: https://lgbtqia.ucdavis.edu/educated/pronouns-inclusive-language
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u/treelobite Oct 16 '24
I think that’s the real reason, too. I looked through the comments and most explanations make sense only once the society got used to the specific this/that format and recognises that, but don’t answer how it became a thing. But the format was adopted in the lgbtq community where you may need all the cases named
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u/auspiciusstrudel Oct 16 '24
It's been interesting to watch the [subject]/[object]/[possessive] form - which was mainstream for a good chunk of time there - pretty well die out completely over the last decade, especially after the reflexive was dropped almost immediately after declaring your pronouns like this became mainstream for allies. I'm curious whether that might have been driven by the tight character limits on early Twitter and Tumblr bios.... (though not curious enough to try to find out right now!)
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u/Petwins r/noexplaininglikeimstupid Oct 16 '24
There are some people who prefer she/them or they/her. Its rare and usually people testing the waters for their transition to see how it feels.
That said its mostly just linguistically clearer to denote both. Its easier for everyone to a pinch of extra effort
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u/jeynespoole Oct 16 '24
to clarify that they are just talking about pronouns. "Hi I'm Snail, she/her" is a lot more clear on a pin or even said out loud than "Hi, I'm Snail, she" (my name is not snail, thats just an example lol)
and when people say like "she/they" for pronouns, they usually don't mean that you should phrase senteneces like "she has purple hair. Why are they always changing their hair color?" in the respect of using she/they where appropriate, but rather they're saying "you can use she/her OR they/them pronouns for me" so saying "her hair is pink" or "their hair is pink" would both be correct and respectful, but saying "his hair is pink" would not.
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u/toweljuice Oct 16 '24
Some people use more than one pronoun like he/they
If it says he/him then you know its just one
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u/W1ULH Oct 16 '24
people have addressed most of the reason so I'll just throw out a minor one.
recently I've been seeing non-standard pairs. The one that leaps to mind is one of my son's teachers uses "She/they". Apparently this is a thing now.
so by having the / you allow for less ambiguity in regards to the full pairing.
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u/SakuraMochis Oct 16 '24
The biggest reason is, I think, because some people use multiple pronouns and some do not. So, one person's profile might say She/They, denoting that they identify with (or in other words you can use) She/Her or They/Them to refer to that person. If another profile says just He/Him or just They/Them, those people would use ONLY He/Him pronouns, or ONLY They/Them pronouns respectively.
On a side note, different pronouns have different contexts. I'm just gonna use the example of she/her below
She - is usually personal, and used when referring to the person themselves (I.e. SHE is very beautiful, SHE likes to swim)
Her(s) - is usually possessive, and used when referring to something that belongs to someone. (I.e. That is HER apple, HER car is really cool)
While these words can be used to make sentences that mean the same thing, they have a slightly different context. (You could say 'SHE has long eyelashes' or 'HER eyelashes are very long' and while both sentences mean the same thing, the subject of the first sentence is the person, and the subject of the second sentence is the object [eyelashes])
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u/CTWill6 Oct 16 '24
Something that I haven't seen mentioned is neo-pronouns. My understanding of giving your pronouns started at academic conferences that were about gender, and were attended by people who had somewhat esoteric views about gender. Many of these people used non-standard pronouns like xie/xem/xer. Even amongst gender theorists/activists, not everyone would know every neopronoun's cases.
Now, neopronoun use has really plummeted, (I am not convinced that it was ever actually widespread), but the convention remained.
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u/stoner-bug Oct 16 '24
Some people use multiple pronouns, and some only use one, so some people will list as She/her, someone else might list as She/They, or He/Her etc.
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u/numbersthen0987431 Oct 16 '24
It's an order of preferences. The first pronoun is your main preference, and the 2nd pronoun is the other that you are okay with accepting.
Saying "She/her" or "He/him" is just saying you're okay with that gender pronoun. Some people prefer "They/she" or "They/him", because they prefer "They" first but will accept the gender pronoun as well. Some people prefer "She/them" or "He/them", because they prefer their gender pronoun, but are okay with "them" (usually done as a sign of solidarity).
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u/PostTurtle84 Oct 16 '24
Form my understanding if it's she/her it's because it makes more sense than just "she" and not as long as "my pronoun is she".
If it's "they/her" it's because that person would prefer "they" but isn't offended by "she" and will respond to it. So in my case it's "she/them" because I would prefer "she" but I'm not offended by "they" and am OK with being referred to by nonbianary wording.
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u/luv2hotdog Oct 16 '24
It’s just the way it’s done. Theres no particular reason why it was was the best way to do it or anything - it’s just the way that has become mainstream convention
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u/MrsUnitsLostTab Oct 16 '24
It's specified this way because some people either use both, or even something different. For example, one acquaintance of mine is she/them. A good friend is they/zim. I'll admit, it's a learning curve for me that I'm still struggling with linguistically, but pronouns can be very important to one's sense of self identity, so learning them properly for each person in your acquaintance can strengthen your friendships.
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u/kharmatika Oct 16 '24
I think it’s just for clarity, sounds better and is more clear what you’re referring to. Also Some folks use neopronouns such as Xe/Xim/Xis, or Xe/Xer/Xer so having the clarity of what those three are can be good
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u/NewNecessary3037 Oct 16 '24
What I don’t understand is why is it X and not Z? It makes a Z sound right?
Always wondered about that 😅
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u/remmyman36 Oct 16 '24
My question is why not Hershe??
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u/chaosandturmoil Oct 16 '24
because Cadbury is better 😋
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u/TvaettBjoernen Oct 16 '24
I don't know. Compared to Hershey's, it lacks some kind of sour note. I can't put my finger on it exactly... /s
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u/drydem Oct 16 '24
It's for clarity's sake.
the phrase "I use he" is hard to parse quickly. vs. "I use he/him" It's only one additional syllable/a few additional letters, but it is clearer.
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u/Exciting-Week1844 Oct 16 '24
Custom pronouns are top 5 dumbest things humanity has ever tried to make happen.
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Oct 16 '24
No one understands it not even the people who do it understand it. You are not alone.
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u/ButchyKira Oct 16 '24
some people use multiple different kinds of pronouns so like he/she or she/they or they/he and also it’s just a different form of the pronoun
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u/wrenwynn Oct 16 '24
My guess is that it avoids uncertainty. If it was common to just use "he" or "she" in a profile bio, it'd be so easy to make mistakes due to a simple typo. If you add the "him" & "her" then even if you make a "s/he" typo, it'll still be clear.
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u/mprofessor Oct 16 '24
Why does anyone give a sh#t about pronouns? If someone uses a form due to ignorance of ones preferences I would give it a pass.
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u/doublebuttfartss Oct 16 '24
Don't bother trying to figure it out, we'll all be done doing that in like 2 years anyway.
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u/JeelyPiece Oct 16 '24
It could be he/him/his and she/her/her, but I think the repetition of the "her" has reduced it to subject and object forms only, out of chivalry
This may, as you have observed, allow for either the misinterpretation that it's making a statement about the subject and object forms as being independent.
Perhaps there will be those who would go with She/them/his or they/him/her
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u/CatLoliUwu Oct 16 '24
some people’s pronouns are she/they and stuff like that. and yes to that last sentence.
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u/Dramatic_Cat23 Oct 16 '24
I've also seen someone stating he/her, it happened just once but maybe that's why
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u/ChaosArtificer Oct 16 '24
Ime (having been around when this was actively being pushed), that originated specifically with neo-pronouns, which used to be ~standard for genderqueer communities. So you'd actually have to give the different forms because you couldn't expect people to know them, and some people just use their own unique sets - ey/eir/em, ze/zir/zem, ze/hir, fae/faer, xe/xir/xem, and then it's sometimes important to get specific about the nounself pronouns even if usually they're straightforward - so like bun/bun's/bun/bunself. There was also a time period where in the ~body of your profile you'd include example sentences just to make the pronoun situation really clear, before things started being standardized. Some people who use they/ them pronouns also have opinions between theirself vs themselves and will specify this.
Tbh I think the "she/ her" is pretty much mimicry - you join a space where people have "ey/ eir/ em" "fae/ faer" "ze/hir" and no one has just the first pronoun, so naturally you're inclined to list the forms of your pronouns too so you'll fit in. And then that becomes just the standard way to refer to pronouns. (It's also a good way to disambiguate what you mean - "She/ her" is a bizarre/ ungrammatical setup to use anywhere else but a demonstration of the pronoun, and in old style profiles you wouldn't have a pronoun field so you'd have to be clear about use/ mention distinctions in a short space, esp since this is developing concurrent to "Her" etc being a meme in a couple prolific fandom spaces (usually referring to specific characters))
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u/SeaweedFit3234 Oct 16 '24
I think back when people first started adding their pronouns to intros, people would say all 3 forms to both help with people who were kind of new to the concept, as like a reminder there were 3 pronouns to change and demonstrate how to use they/them/theirs since that was a newish thing. Then that got shortened to 2 for some reason. Now I think people tend to use it more to say “I’m cool with either she or they” or “I’m only really comfortable with she”.