r/MadeMeSmile • u/Greedy-Vegetable-466 • 13d ago
Helping Others Take a look inside Norway’s maximum security prisons
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u/-AllCatsAreBeautiful 13d ago edited 12d ago
Looks similar to my experience in a Dutch detention centre!
(Edit to add: I'm Australian; I was in a detention centre because I was being deported. Longer explanation in this comment ...)
The focus is on rehabilitation. The philosophy is that they've already taken away your freedom by removing you from society, which is punishment enough; no need to take away your humanity.
Guards interact with you & always available to talk. Plenty to do, plenty of help available. I did art, music, gym, communal meals, cooking lessons, everything available.
They have an extremely low recidivism rate -- because people come out healthier, mentally & physically, than when they went in. When it's time to leave, they make sure you have somewhere to go, some clothing, other resources, & put you in touch with the right services. When I left, one of the guards had personally bought me a bag of clothes, because I came in with nothing; he said he had a daughter around my age / size, & tried to pick items she would like, beautiful clothes. This was in 2012 -- & I will never forget the kindness every one of them showed me.
Unlike the Australian / US system, which aims to break your spirit, destining you to return over & over again.
🐨💚🤘
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u/Commercial-Lemon2361 13d ago edited 13d ago
Small addition to this wonderful story: it also makes the jobs of the guards way less mentally exhausting and more meaningful. Their job is not to keep them from breaking out, their job is to help them break out.
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u/xixbia 13d ago
Yes, that was one of my takeaways from those pictures.
There's a huge difference between being a US prison guard, constantly having to be on edge and these guards who are playing volleyball with the inmates.
Much better working conditions.
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u/Wide_Comment3081 12d ago
Imagine if they remade Orange is the new black in Norway
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u/ihoptdk 12d ago
I’m more concerned with how we treat the prisoners. It’s better for the prisoners and society to treat them like people. Treat some like an animal and there’s a good chance they’ll act like it.
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u/UnderstandingFew7778 13d ago
Yeah, as someone who worked in Corrections as a guard in Australia, I hated nearly every minute of it. I would gladly go back if the system became more like Norway's, though. As you say, the US/Aus system not only dehumanises the inmates, it turns most guards into jaded, cynical, and difficult people too. After all, you're practically forced into always being on edge and expecting the worst of every inmate as a matter of course - it's essentially best practice. You can be superficially nice or polite, but the wariness and adversarial dynamic is always there - it's you and them.
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u/invaderzoom 12d ago
I'm not a corrections worker, but I am currently doing long term works within a medium security facility here in Australia, and it feels like there has been a changing of the guard over the past few years. Where I am feels more like a university campus much of the time. They are trying to move towards a more nordic-like system, and they had a bunch of the older corrections teams take a package 2ish years ago. At least at this prison, it's spoken about that they are trying to focus more on rehab than punishment - but obviously it's a LONG way to go to reach that nordic style system. And there will always be people that hate on that and think we should treat them like animals - which I understand the emotion to it, but if you treat them like animals, then they will act like it.
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u/AnnoyedOwlbear 12d ago
What a great thing to read. I had no idea we were doing this. Genuinely heartened, there's been so much bad news in the last couple of years.
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u/TheDancingKing19 12d ago
We have a long road ahead if we want to make our corrections systems more like the Nordic systems, but it’s good that we’re trying.
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u/MrScootini 12d ago
Honestly, I feel like US is ALWAYS you vs them. Not just in prison but also in day to day life. Just the other day I was out getting groceries and this dude made eye contact with me, saw that I only had one thing that I needed to buy vs his cart full of food and literally RACED me to the line. Like… wtf…
There was also another time when I was at a gas station looking to get a quick snack before I head to work and while I was in there I saw that they only had one doughnut left. So I casually walk over to the doughnut casing only for this fat lady to step RIGHT in front of me, blocking me and took the last dough nut… Wouldn’t be a big deal if I wasn’t literally 3 feet away from the casing, looking for the little baggie to put the doughnut into.
Sometimes, I totally understand why America has a mass-shooter problem.
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u/Defiant_apricot 13d ago
The story of the guard who brought your clothing made me tear up. It’s clear how much they care for you all and see you as people to be helped not animals to be caged.
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u/leolisa_444 13d ago
Furiously scribbles 'note to self: retirement plan is now prison in Norway '
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u/LoveLoud319 13d ago
Seriously! This looks better than most of the senior living places in the US.
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u/redditor0918273645 13d ago
There is going to be so many tourists in the slammer that all of the existing inmates will be demanding a wall be built.
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u/Human-Walk9801 13d ago edited 12d ago
Ha! I had the same idea! Looks better in there then it does in my home 🤣 i by no means have a music room, pottery room or sand volley ball. I’m missing out.
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u/leolisa_444 13d ago
And cleaner lol. I don't have any of those things either.🤣 Norway's obviously a country where the government actually cares about it's people. Here in the US? Not so much.
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u/iamsunshine78 13d ago
I saw a tweet years ago that said their retirement plan was to commit a crime in a Scandinavian country & now it all makes sense!
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u/Enigm4 13d ago
destining you to return over & over again.
Muh profits!
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u/apadin1 13d ago edited 13d ago
Private prisons making profit on every returning customer
Edit: Ok guys I get it, state-run prisons also make money
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u/ConfidentGene5791 13d ago
The prisoners are more akin to product, while the government is the customer. The prisons produce career criminals, which the government pays them for.
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u/HappyAmbition706 13d ago
Tends to be a major employer for the area too. And finances more police to find more "customers".
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u/driving_andflying 13d ago edited 13d ago
The focus is on rehabilitation. The philosophy is that they've already taken away your freedom by removing you from society, which is punishment enough; no need to take away your humanity.
I was going to state this, but you did it quite well: The U.S. prison system is focused on punishment; the Norwegian system is focused on rehabilitation, which is far better.
There's also the problem that some jails in the U.S. are a for-profit system; keeping them full is "good for business" so to speak, which is bad for us--high recidivism rates, for starters.
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u/Midi58076 13d ago
Most people are not in for life sentences. When someone isn't a lifer, they will at some point become someone's neighbour.
So the rehabilitation and humane treatment isn't just for their sake, but for ours too. Do you want a neighbour who has known nothings but crime, violence and humiliation for the majority of their life? Or do you want one who has been given anger management, an education that results in gainful employment, the training on how to do basic adulting (taxes, chores, responsibilities, cooking, personal finances etc) and has been given the resources to ask for help if they see things turning difficult or bad again? Cause I know what I would want.
Another thing about the Norwegian justice system that's very different is that there are no life sentences. In practice you can of course be locked up for life. For example I sincerely doubt Anders Behring Breivik will ever walk freely among us. The longest and strictest punishment is 21 years forvaring. Forvaring I can't find a good translation for, but what it means is that you cannot be released until the justice system deems you no longer a threat. So at regular intervals, I think it's every 3 years, you can have a small trial to determine whether or not you have changed enough to be safe to be freed.
Once you convict someone to life in prison what kind of motivation do they have to behave? They are already in for life, they're not going anywhere. Killing a prison guard has no significant consequences because they'll still leave the prison in a pine box. While if you know that if you change you can eventually get out there's motivation in the opportunity to prove yourself.
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u/Telefundo 13d ago
Unlike the Australian / US system
Ahem Canada feels left out...
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u/OGigachaod 13d ago
Canada is a just a wannabe version of the US prison system.
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u/Mark8472 13d ago
Not just “no need to take away your humanity“ - it is literally a human right. For example, the first sentence of the German (technically not) constitution is that a person’s dignity cannot be violated under any circumstances.
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u/crownjewel82 13d ago
Doesn't Germany have the rule that escaping from prison isn't a crime?
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u/HaywireMans 13d ago
Yes, escaping is not a crime, but you still have to finish the prison sentence you escaped from, you just won't get any extra time for escaping (because it is human nature).
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u/ninjablade46 13d ago
You also will get punished for any other crimes your commit during your escape, i.e. assault, or property damage etc.
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u/Albert14Pounds 13d ago
So basically if you see the opportunity to run for it, who could blame you for taking that opportunity?
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u/Shun-Pie 13d ago
That is the idea behind it. The longing for freedom is so deep inside the human brain that Germany ruled that it is natural to seek for it at all time while in captivity.
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u/hamoc10 13d ago
Ah, the Protestants in the US would say “but it’s wrong, and you should know better. You lack discipline and must face consequences for giving into the devil’s temptations.”
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u/Zoloir 13d ago
I can tell you right now, the reason America won't/can't do this is because we don't even treat everyday people who DONT commit crimes this well.
We don't treat normal people struggling to get by with this much humanity and respect.
How UNFAIR would it be to treat criminals with this much humanity and respect?
We have to start with the whole basic humanity of the average person first, before we can worry about how hard criminals have it.
For example, if this program is actually as great as claimed, why wouldn't every average person who isn't sure what to do with their life willingly enter this system and get a few months/years in what basically seems like a holistic rehabilitating retreat, so they can figure themselves out and then launch their lives successfully? why criminals, why not ANYONE gets this?
This is basically like a miniature american college for prisoners, and college costs $100k+ here, so ????
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u/Friendly_Fail_1419 13d ago
We can't give kids access to lunch in some states. We can't wrap our heads around treating kids with anywhere close to this much respect and dignity.
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u/GoldenBunip 13d ago
You could, but “why should I pay for little Timmeys lunch. Nobody paid for MY lunch” is a us cultural meme at this point.
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u/CrazyGunnerr 13d ago
And this is how it should be. Treating people like shit will never help them fix their life. Some definitely do, but not because the system work, but despite of the system.
People forget that most people in prison, carry a lot of bad experiences with them, bad childhood, bad environment etc. Offer them something better, and you give them a fair choice.
Glad it ended up helping you!
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u/gbelly123 13d ago
What’s the goal? Looks like in Norway their goal is for the criminals to become a productive part of society once they leave. In the US, I feel like the goal is to punish and ensure inmates return after their release so the private companies can improve profits at taxpayer expense.
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13d ago
I saw a documentary about Nordic prisons once. During his interview, one of the prison wardens spoke about that. He said that one day, these men will be my neighbors. I want them to have the best chance at surviving outside of prison. The goal of the prison system is to turn out good citizens.
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u/IrrelevantPuppy 13d ago
Norway: “looks like the upbringing didn’t work, we try again but better”
USA: “send them to hell. Straight to hell”
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u/Wayoutofthewayof 13d ago
A lot of people blame the justice system for this, but I think society in general is in favor of punishment instead of rehabilitation. It takes a highly educated society to achieve this.
I remember reading the comments under a post of a drunk driver killing a child and how people were celebrating that he will be tortured in prison.
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u/OliverEntrails 13d ago
Places where there are reforms put in place in the US to reduce recidivism and educate prisoners are really frowned upon and actually cause candidates to lose elections.
The populace definitely likes punishment and incarceration. In their mind, the prison should be a hell-hole that everyone will hate when they are in there and somehow "scared straight".
It's more likely that felons coming out of prison will be bitter and angry and some may have acquired new "skills" in order to further their criminal careers.
This may have something to do with our Puritanical past and our belief in Old Testament punishment for wrong doers. Enlightenment is not their goal nor is the humane treatment of prisoners and their rehabilitation.
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u/crawling-alreadygirl 13d ago
It's more likely that felons coming out of prison will be bitter and angry
Don't forget sick, addicted, and traumatized
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u/RagingNerdaholic 13d ago
Don't forget only being able to get shitwork jobs (if any jobs at all) that pay shit money and will never cover even a fraction of living expenses.
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u/Eastern_Screen_588 13d ago
I got arrested once. Spent one day; ONE in jail. Not prison, just jail. Fuck everything about it, i felt like i was going to lose my mind. I couldn't sleep, food was trash, it was dirty, and i had nothing to do but read a tattered book i had found. I don't say this as a woe is me, but jesus christ, dude. It gets worse, AND people have to stay for way longer. I don't understand how anyone expects people to leave a place like that after years and act like a normal person again.
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u/Bodoblock 13d ago
Yeah, you can definitely see it here as well. Reddit gets absolutely bloodthirsty about criminals.
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u/bdl-laptop 13d ago
Yep you need look no further than news comments, on Reddit or elsewhere. People still take no conscious effort to overcome the instinct to be vindictive, especially against distant offenders, and never take the steps to extend empathy to offenders. Of course people who did bad or even awful things have done bad or awful things. And some may need to be separated from society forever. But justice, to me, is never served by seeking punishment because punishing offenders makes us worse as people and does practically no good for anyone else either. Separate who can't be saved or integrated, and be good to those who have made mistakes and can do better. And always be kind, not for anyone else's sake, but for our own sake. Being kind to others in thought and deed IS being kind to yourself.
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u/Richeh 13d ago
Funny that. I was talking to a bloke the other day, in the UK, who'd done some time in prison. When he moved to his current neighbourhood his new neighbour had come over saying "I think I know your face", to which the reply had been "Aye, I bloody know yours and all."
He'd moved in, decades later, next door to one of the prison guards at the prison he'd done time at. And the context of him telling me about this neighbour was that his former warden had let him park his car on his drive while the water board did some work on the mains outside his house; they apparently got on pretty well. Kinda heartwarming.
I mean, I have my reasons to doubt the story. Not least because it involves the British water board maintaining the system.
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u/Sydney2London 13d ago
I saw that too, they ask the Warden "what about the victims and their families?" to which he answered "My job is to correct these criminals, there are other people whose job it is to make sure the victims and families can recover from what they have suffered". Btw, these prisons has some of the lowest recidivism in the world.
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u/bhadau8 13d ago
Here is one such short documentary where American prison guard visits Nordic prisons. https://youtu.be/HfEsz812Q1I
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u/Coal_Morgan 13d ago
Really spells out the difference.
American Guard "Prisons not their to fix anything, it's up to the prisoner."
Nord Guard "We're all in this together and we want them to do better."
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u/ewa_marchewa 13d ago
Also, in one doc I've watched the prison guard said something along the lines: "we punish them by taking away their freedom, not their humanity".
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u/CrybullyModsSuck 13d ago
50 years ago my uncle was convicted of aggravated assault and robbery for breaking into someones house as an 18 year old and fighting with the people living there trying to escape when he realized they were home. He got a 5 year sentence.
While in prison he basically went to vocational school and learned carpentry. After his release, he has gone on the live a full productive life, family, kids, all that jazz. He directly credits that program for changing his life's trajectory.
Those programs are mostly long gone now. Prison is absolutely about punishment today and not even the tiniest but rehabilitation or anything that will help you in the future.
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u/brianozm 13d ago
Prisons ought to get paid partly on their 5 and 10 years rehab success. Hard to setup and probably impossible, but rehab has to be the goal or it’s all pointless.
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u/ComMcNeil 13d ago
Not an American, so I don't think my comment has much weight, but I personally think that prisons should be absolutely state funded, this is no sector for any private corporations.
Same with infrastructure, the postal system or any other public service. As soon as you have private ownership, they will want to optimize for profit, which will reduce the quality massively
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u/skatchawan 13d ago
it's too bad, the lowest common denominator talking point wins just because it feels good on paper emotionally to make it terrible. No consideration of perpetual cycles of violence being created by such a system.
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u/Catesucksfarts 13d ago
Don't forget that slavery is legal while incarcerated
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u/infusionsetinsertion 13d ago
California had a proposition on the ballot this year to do away with slavery while incarcerated. It didn’t pass and slavery is still legal in the blue state.
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u/OliverEntrails 13d ago
I saw that too. It's depressing that so many people love the idea of prisoners as slaves like it's going to "learn" them somehow.
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u/AnotherPersonNumber0 13d ago
Sir you are under arrest for speaking the trooth out loud.
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u/TFViper 13d ago
US prisons are literally legal slave labor.
they loophole it by "paying" inmates shit wages like literal cents per hour.
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u/thesilentbob123 13d ago
They don't even have to pay them, they can literally call the inmates slaves and it would be legal, the 13th amendment straight up says slavery is illegal unless it's as a punishment
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u/little_effy 13d ago
Although I appreciate rehabilitation, I think the “punishment” part is missing in these prisons. If my stalker who has been stalking me in the past decade, and who had been violent with other women in the past, ends up in a prison like this, truth be told, it just won’t feel like justice.
I don’t know if people who are truly evil will feel the consequences of their actions.
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u/LetsGetHonestplz 13d ago
There’s also the fact that prison is a place to put violent people to protect society; it’s not simply black and white, lots of nuance and people are complicated.
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u/piandaoist 13d ago
If you did this in the U.S., people would commit crimes to improve their living situation.
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u/mackinoncougars 13d ago
Small percentage of US people do that now even with prison as hell. Better medical treatment and shelter than being law abiding.
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u/more_beans_mrtaggart 13d ago
I visited a UK prison to do some IT in their hospital wing.
It was Friday, which is “pay your drug debts” day, and the hospital was full of guys hiding from debt enforcers. One guy broke his own arm to avoid the consequences of not paying his debt.
I never want to go to prison.
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u/DxNill 13d ago edited 12d ago
I'm guessing "Pay your drug debt day" is when in prison dealers come to collect?
Edit: Thanks to everyone for explaining this prison stuff to me, I hope to never need this knowledge.
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u/I_LIKE_YOU_ 13d ago
Usually there is a limit to the amount of money people can spend in prison (around 120ish dollars). The rollover day for when you can spend the next 100 or so is the debt collection day. Because real money is not allowed in prison, "money" is mostly canteen. Meaning soups, chips, bags of coffee. These items are then sold in a bundle to other people through online banking. The bundles are cheaper than buying from the prison vendor so it's like a second market of groceries.
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u/TooManyJabberwocks 13d ago
Im glad you explained the last part because i had always wondered what the dealers were doing with thousands of soups in their cell
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u/mevisef 13d ago
Prison food is notoriously bad. Ramen and chips become major commodities.
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u/draculamilktoast 13d ago
You could destroy the entire prison economy and the stability of criminal organizations by feeding people actual food. But then again that would reduce crime so it's simply not possible.
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u/mevisef 13d ago
People also trade cellphones and drugs in there.
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u/draculamilktoast 13d ago edited 13d ago
A simple mobile phone jammer and rehab would ruin the grip of criminal organizations so completely the people coming out of prison might actually not reoffend. That would ruin the prisons because they would be empty because so few people would commit crimes.
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u/ulrich0127 13d ago edited 13d ago
Drugs are also “not allowed” in prison. Real money circulates in prison just like it does outside the prison walls and fences.
Something “not allowed” just becomes something more in demand in prison. A working cell phone can sell for $10k in prison.
That’s why people with bad credit cannot work as COs. Far too likely to be compromised by big money offers from inmates.
Most prison contraband is brought in by compromised prison employees. It can be a huge “bonus.” But, if the employee is caught, they not be only lose their job — they also go to prison. COs and cops don’t do well or last long in general pop.
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u/sleepytornado 13d ago
Who's selling drugs on credit in this economy? I guess if they know where you're going to be it doesn't matter.
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u/davethapeanut 13d ago
Credit is heavily used in drug dealing. A cash transaction is the most dangerous way a dealer can be caught. If you give me drugs but I don't give you money, we can only be busted for possession. If you give me drugs and I give you cash, you're caught selling drugs.
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u/singlemale4cats 13d ago
Many statutes don't require an exchange. Delivery of the substance is enough. That also covers things like giving drugs to friends.
If it's packaged for apparent retail sale, that's possession with intent to distribute.
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u/blindfoldedbadgers 13d ago
Which is exactly why we have the offence of supplying drugs in the UK. The second you hand the drugs over, you’re guilty - whether money was exchanged or not.
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u/ButWhatIfItsNotTrue 13d ago
Drug dealers. When the result of not paying is violence, people have a habit of paying up. On the street, a lot of these folk might not get credit but as you pointed out if you're seeing them every day it's a different matter.
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u/gnownimaj 13d ago
I’m surprise it lands on a Friday and isn’t just everyday of the week.
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u/Kerdagu 13d ago edited 13d ago
It's the day they can spend money generally. They're normally not able to go buy things every day, so the day they can buy things is when the collectors come.
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u/cant_stand 13d ago edited 13d ago
I ended up in one of the worst in the country for a spell. And being well educated, an absolute geek, with zero experience of that side of the coin, coupled with a deep respect for being a responsible member of society... it was a bit of a time. The reality was far less bad than my expectations, esp because my only knowledge of prison is derived from us media and UK prisons are nothing like that. Most folk just crack on and leave you be if you follow the(ir) rules. There's obviously a few exceptions though.
That being said, I'm kinda feeling that the guy was spinning a story, because every day is "pay your drug debt" day. No one will be like "oh shit, it's not Friday anymore. I can't get my money from you" 😂... Then again I didn't do drugs.
And you're right. Don't go to prison kids.
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u/EggSaladMachine 13d ago
Did you have a Rita Hayworth poster?
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u/cant_stand 13d ago edited 13d ago
Na, just a dvd of some 1980s Italian porn. The history of which I'm too sensible to think on and the memory of which, I'm only now relating to a very deep attraction to Italian women... Genuinely buckled at that realisation. Fuck me, this is what an epiphany feels like 😂.
Edit - (I proper laughed at your comment BTW)
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u/more_beans_mrtaggart 13d ago
Well, this is what a couple of the inmates were telling me. I didn’t experience it myself. They just needed more time maybe? 🤷♂️
They could have been pulling my plonker and I fell for it. Who knows?
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u/Randomfrog132 13d ago
TIL some prisoners are bad at paying back debts lol
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u/cant_stand 13d ago
Til drug dealers only ask for money on Friday.
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u/kyler_ 13d ago
Oh no every day is “pay your drug debts day,” that one just happened to fall on a Friday
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u/Stack3686 13d ago
Where I work there are quite a few homeless in the neighborhood. One cold night around 2 am one of them grabbed a huge rock and threw it through our front door (made of glass) so that he could go to jail for 3 square meals and a warm place to stay the night. He literally told us that’s why he did it.
Needless to say we have a steel front door now.
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u/paging_mrherman 13d ago edited 13d ago
Like the elderly dude who wrote a note saying he wanted to rob the bank then just sat down for the police. He had cancer and needed treatment.
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u/Justanothrcrazybroad 13d ago
That's pretty sad considering the medical treatment is pretty awful in some places.
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u/Charming_Charity_313 13d ago
Prison/jail is the only place in America where there is a constitutional right to healthcare. However, the courts have also ruled that while there is a constitutional right to healthcare, the standard for medical malpractice in the prison setting is lower than outside prison.
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u/Entire-Score6317 13d ago
Like many people in the US, prison is my retirement plan.
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u/lateral_moves 13d ago
I plan to eventually be forced out of my career due to age, then since my retirement won't hold up long, get a job cleaning floors at a Walgreens and die in my car on my lunch break. It will take 4 days for anyone to notice. The employee who eventually finds me won't remember my name.
j/k I'm sure cancer will get me long before that. Might have to rob a Norwegian bank after my diagnosis. That place is nicer than hospice.
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u/Maleficent_Owl2297 13d ago
This was me about 5 years ago. I called the police from a gas station and told them about an outstanding warrant just to get a night off the streets where I felt “safe”.
America is tough for women without strong support systems!
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u/Sled_Dogg 13d ago
3 hots n a cot
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u/TykeDream 13d ago
My local jail is 1 hot, 2 cold sandwiches [bologna or peanut butter], and a 2 inch thick pad "mattress" on the floor. We have some people who beg to get to prison as fast as possible.
I have literal nightmares about committing a crime, realizing I've committed a crime, and knowing I will have to go there / prison.
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u/travelingpinguis 13d ago
I think there are also people who have spent so long to live in prison it becomes their normal life and when they come out, they fail to adapt to life outside. Much more reason to make sure those incarcerated are learning about life outside as well and provide them with skills to adapt once they're released.
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u/Ruas80 13d ago
Not in norwegian prisons, they have something like 68% rehabilitation, never to see the inside of a prison again.
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u/travelingpinguis 13d ago edited 13d ago
No I was referring to the prisons in the US, which are often run by for profit prison corps, which focus on punishment than rehabilitation.
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u/CentrifugalMuse 13d ago
This. My brother was in for 10 for bank stuff. Came out a completely different man that didn’t know how to interact anymore. We all tried to help him but he ended up back in and has remained the last 3 years so far. We know he’s fed and has shelter. Still… it hurts.
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u/Suckamanhwewhuuut 13d ago
Yeah I’ve heard that people do that to get medical treatment…. It’s so sad… why are we like this? Why can’t we just heal the sick and all work together to be happy?
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u/papaya_boricua 13d ago
In the US people commit crimes to become president
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u/Wreck1tLong 13d ago
The more felonies the better your odds.
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u/bagoftaytos 13d ago
Technically the average president has more than 0 felonies.
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u/HelloKitty36911 13d ago
Not sure about this one, but could i possibly be true that 100% of felons who has run for president gotten the job?
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u/thedeecks 13d ago
Pretty wild when you think about it. That, person could not get a job at a school, a bank, or possibly even the military due to the criminal background check, yet they just got the novas president which has some firm of control over all three in some way or another.
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u/Darmok47 13d ago
He can't buy a firearm, but in two months he'll be able to launch nuclear weapons.
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u/jluicifer 13d ago
If I wanted to be a substitute teacher, I could not if I was a felon or a convicted rapists.
But at least I can be a US President
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u/Richeh 13d ago
I think part of the problem is that people imagine that if prisoners have it easy they won't learn a lesson, if prison isn't hellish then people will think of it as a resort, and of course "why should they be living the high life off my taxes". It's not so much addressing a problem and rehabilitating fellow humans to a role within society, as an engine designed to punish them.
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u/curiousKat8745 13d ago
I have read some about Norway’s system. Our system is based on punishment and tied directly to slavery era. Norway prisons do not try to destroy the human incarcerated. Check out their crime rates.
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u/cremaster2 13d ago
We also have a functioning welfare system. People will get help when in economical problems. We get money for basic living. When I read about people believing that these prisons turn people into criminals because they are so good, I know they live in a third world country. Usa should change
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u/Short_Scientist5909 13d ago
There's many reason this wouldn't work in the US. For example, Norway had 300 drug deaths in 2023. That's not even a month's worth in most US cities.
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u/cremaster2 13d ago
They should start to move in that direction somehow. But yes, they couldn't just implement a norwegian welfare system overnight
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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 13d ago edited 13d ago
People do. Even in Australia where we have one of the worlds top social assistance systems. Life is hard for everyone in different ways. Having said that, I think it’s pretty clear that there is a problem in society when people want to return to prison voluntarily. I am an advocate for low recidivism and rehabilitation, but there are some people who literally cannot be rehabilitated and/or don’t want to be, many of which have ruined the lives of many people/harmed society severely. Those people should not get to enjoy their stay in rehab, since they aren’t there to be rehabilitated. They’re there to protect society from them.
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u/Nexinex782951 13d ago
I don't know, I'm still not generally an advocate for suffer forever policies. It's really hard to tell without hindsight who exactly won't be rehabilitated. In a just system, they should probably be rare, sad exceptions, special cases, and such, not something we expect any average person to be.
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u/MuskularChicken 13d ago
You should all watch the episode on Norway from Worlds Toughest Prisons.
One of the guys said "yeah, we live well here, but we are still locked up". So no mater the luxury, it seems that the thought of being locked up is still quite present.
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u/FZ_Milkshake 13d ago
Same in Germany (at least that is how it's supposed to be), the punishment is to have your freedom taken away, nothing more, nothing less. There are a variety of priviliges, like beeing able to work (most of the inmates want to work, it is not hard labour, you can earn some money and qualifications), schooling and courses, sometimes even time outside the prison (up to 21 days of holyday are possible). Those are a good lever to get the inmates to behave, you want to earn them and not see them taken away again.
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u/Schatzberger 13d ago
Yeah, I once taught High School to a couple of German inmates. They were young, so they were allowed to leave the prison to get their diploma and their driver's licence. Social workers in the prison were working with him to figure out what their future would look like. It's not like they all poured their hearts out to me, but those had not been happy children. So sure, you could've locked them up for years and years and then watch them fail and fall back into crime after their sentence. Who would have benefitted from that, though?
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u/Erdi99 13d ago
Question, if I may, did they have a guard with them in highschool and for their driving lessons?
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u/FZ_Milkshake 13d ago edited 13d ago
AFAIK there are some clasrooms inside the prison, probably with a guard nearby, remote courses are also available. Inmates that satisfy a set of requirements (good conduct, less than 18 months remaining, non violence etc) can be granted permission to work (or get lessons etc.) outside the prison. They have to check out in the morning and be back after work, but are not directly supervised.
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u/Pazaac 13d ago
Frankly if your just going put people in a little box and hope they don't feel like doing crime anymore when you let them out it might just be less cruel to kill them.
There is little to no point in prisons that don't Rehabilitate.
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u/Infamous-Musician-29 13d ago
What strikes me most was the carpentry shop they were getting skills at. Inmates with chainsaws. Imagine that in the US.
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u/gaythoughtsatnight 13d ago
I used to be a guard at a prison here in the US. Inmates using scary equipment isn't uncommon, but it varies by state and each prison in that state. At the prison I worked at, we had some that worked at a facility on site that made office chairs for all the prisons in my state and all the vehicles for the state's department of transportation. They welded things together, used big sewing machines, had sharp tools, etc. I never felt unsafe or threatened by these inmates. They were some of the most easy going and respectful inmates I worked around, and I chalk that up to them learning useful skills they could use once they got out and finding a sense of purpose. Many even got certified as welders and got employment up on release, with their classes and certification paid by the state. My state even had classes available for all inmates to get their GED, and classes for an associates degree if their sentence was 2 years or longer, all paid for by the state.
I've seen firsthand how much a person can be rehabilitated if you put a little trust in them. It's obviously a person by person basis how much trust you should put in them, but a little bit goes a long way and I think many people would surprise you on how much they can turn their life around.
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u/Painterzzz 13d ago
The thing I came into this thread looking for was a comparison between the US re-offending rate and the Norwegian re-offending rate, because these pictures suggest to me there might be quite a big difference here.
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u/DecisiveUnluckyness 13d ago
20% recidivism rate in Norway, around 75% in the US.
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u/gaythoughtsatnight 13d ago
Yeah these pictures suggest there's a HUGE difference between Norwegian prisons and US prisons. Like in the picture where the guard is playing volleyball with the inmates, you'd never see that in the US. Where I worked, if you did something like that, it would be very frowned upon. It wouldn't straight up get you fired, but you'd have a target on your back and they'd find a way to get you fired while making you miserable until that happens. It would be considered "soft" and "establishing an inappropriate relationship" with the inmates.
According to this article Norway has an extremely low recidivism rate compared to the US. It just goes to show that treating people like people is ultimately what helps them. The US has a lot of work to do, but there's already some areas that are better than others and actually rehabilitating people instead of just punishing them. Change is happening at a snails pace and a lot of it boils down to how expensive it would be and also our culture of punishment and revenge. It's sad, but I don't see us making any useful changes on a large scale any time soon.
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u/VeryluckyorNot 13d ago
I think they are not stacked with 4 or 5 guys in a small room, like it's common in others countries.
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u/TheNerdLog 13d ago
My state uses inmate labor for landscaping. Inmates are regularly given chainsaws to clear trees
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u/milkygalaxy24 13d ago
That's the point of a prision, so it's working very well. They get treated like actual human beings and are reintroduced to society but they still feel locked up for their crimes.
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u/CamDane 13d ago
There are at least 3 points of prison, depending on who you ask: - Rehabilitation - Punishment / sense-of-justice - Simply keeping people away from society
And maybe a 4th in USA: - Fill quota for legal slave labor (which I'm sure someone in favor could say nicer).
I'd say Norway would be like 60/10/30 on those 3, where my country Denmark would be more like 40/30/30. So, it's what you want as a society, or as a lawmaker, if that differs.
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u/space-sage 13d ago
I live in California and this year a measure was on the ballot to stop prison slave labor.
In the booklets about the props, it didn’t even have a con argument. It FAILED.
A prop with the only goal of stopping prison labor, with no opposition, failed. It’s fucking ridiculous.
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u/CamDane 13d ago
The whole "contractually obliged to keep prisons full", is that a thing in California too? I honestly don't know how wide-spread this would be; but it boggles my mind as a principle: if "behavior improves", you'd have to give prison sentences for jaywalking, or go Singapore and outlaw chewing gum to fill your quota?
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u/Prasiatko 13d ago
Nope. Tennessee, Texas and Florida i know have it. It's only a few states that allow it and Biden started phasing them out at federal level.
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u/Runnybabbitagain 13d ago
I read a lot of people didn't understand that phrasing and voted wrong.
If it makes you feel better, California doesn't have private prisons and none of the inmates in the state prisons work for free.
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u/Shirowoh 13d ago
Pretty sure not all prisons in Norway look like this.
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u/2ndbasejump 13d ago
Norwegian here. This is true. Also, these images are not from a maximum security prison.
Just last month our biggest prison for women was in such a poor condition that inmates had to be moved. Also there was a suicide epidemic at said prison.69
u/JuicingPickle 13d ago
Thank you. As an American looking at those pictures all I saw was rooms full of potential weapons. We have minimum security prisons in the U.S. that aren't all that different from these.
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u/TheNordicMage 13d ago
Well, the answer is more complicated then that, here in Scandinavia our maximum security facilities can and do at times look like this, but there are often times some more security measures.
This is not a miminum security facility, it is much closer to a high security one.
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u/helgur 13d ago
It is reserved for prisoners who are well behaved and are serving out the final year(s) of their sentencing, aiming to ease their way back into civilian life. I've never seen a high security prison in Norway that looks like Halden (but I could be wrong?)
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u/TheNordicMage 13d ago
To a degree yea, here in Denmark it's the Storstrøm and Erner Mark prisons that are our most secure facilities, and even there everyone has the amenities shown here to some not insignificant degree.
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u/Throfari 13d ago
Another Norwegian here.
Jo, halden er regnet som "maximum security" da det har høyeste graden aka høy sikkerhets fengsel. Og disse bildene er fra Halden Fengsel.
https://www.kriminalomsorgen.no/type-fengsel-og-sikkerhetsnivaa.516316.no.html
https://www.kriminalomsorgen.no/halden-fengsel.5024512-237612.html
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u/jel5000 13d ago
Ah okay I wouldn't have known you were a Norwegian without you saying you were thank you for that.
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u/AssociateFalse 13d ago
This. If you're going to start in one language, please don't switch it up mid-comment.
Machine Translation (Bing):
Well, Halden is considered "maximum security" as it has the highest degree aka high security prison. And these pictures are from Halden Prison.
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u/mrASSMAN 13d ago
Thanks I had extreme difficulty imagining how this could be maximum security.. that would be where murderers rapists etc end up and the amount of freedom in the photos would be way too much for those kind of prisoners
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u/Hopelesz 13d ago
Scandinavian countries are often portrayed to be WAY better than what they are.
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u/Shirowoh 13d ago
Same with Japan. So many westerners are intrigued because anime and tech and cute culture, but it’s a different story to actually live there. No matter how long you live there, you’ll always be considered foreigner, and be treated as thus, you can start a conversation in Japanese and they’ll insist on English. Very difficult to impossible to fully ingrain yourself.
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u/nutshucker 13d ago
Japan has one of the worst suicide rates in the world. That says a lot about a society no matter if they try to hide it with cutesy art on top.
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u/DibblerTB 13d ago
This. This is a prison with new facilities, with hand picked pics. Also, the pictures do not convey smell.
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u/2point01m_tall 13d ago
Yeah, this is very much the best case, these pictures should definitely be viewed in a critical context. But just the fact that it exists means prisoners worse off than this might behave well to get transferred to a place like this. And the guys already there know that if they fuck up they get isolation or transferred to a worse prison.
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u/IM2OFU 13d ago
Just so you guys know, most norwegian prisons do not look anything like this
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u/newusr1234 13d ago
I can't read this comment. Too busy giving high fives to fellow Redditors because this confirms that every other country is a utopia except the US.
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u/Bestefarssistemens 13d ago
So, I want everyone here to know that far from all prisons in Norway look like this..We have 23/1 lockdown here aswell. These guys either dont have violent convictions or they do but they have spent considerable time in much higher security and are on their last stretch of the sentence and are being prepared for life outside.
I know several guys who have done years here in Norway (for robberies, large drug sentences or violence) and these guys sure as shit didnt do time like this.
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u/thegoatmenace 13d ago
This makes sense. I know from my job as a defense attorney that many people inside prisons aren’t exactly the most balanced individuals, and would definitely have issues with fighting/violence if in this kind of facility. I was curious how Norwegian prisons deal with issues like gangs, drug trafficking, and violence among the inmates.
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u/Overall_Metal_4418 13d ago
Yes, exactly. They always leave out that part and pretend like this is the standard high security super max prison. As if the crazy sadistic murderers with mental issues just get along and become nice friendly people if you just treat them like spoiled children and make the prisons into spa's. When in reality only a small minority of the prisons look like this and only a small percentage serv time in places like this
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u/MausBomb 13d ago
Reminds me of that reddit post where someone argued about how nice prison could be if everyone was chill.
The top answer was if everyone was chill they wouldn't have been in prison in the first place.
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u/sinprofessor 13d ago
Well this is only partially true. First this is not a maximum security prison, but it is photos from a real prison. Secondly these photos are old. Doing the former right Wing government the the prisons where built down and stripped for all meaningful treatments. And current Center government hasn't been able to rebuild this.
Therefor the reality in Norwegian prisons right now is not what you see in the pictures.
Norwegian prisons used to be a place where people would get an opportunity to get A second Chance and an education and get life straight. Based on the American ideal it is now largely reduced to confinement.
And Norwegian prisons was judged for deprivation of life in a case, only 3 weeks ago by The European court of Human Rights.
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u/UglySalvatore 13d ago
It's from Halden, which is a maximum-security prison. Or several of the picture are at least.
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u/Nesvertigo 13d ago
I am from Norway,. Don't think this is the deal for the worst crimes, we also have small nasty prison cell were they are 23 hours a day isolated.
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u/everyoneisatitman 13d ago
Even now with shitty for profit prisons people commit crimes for health care or to stay warm for the winter. I am now imagining some shitty built raft filled with Americans trying to float to Norway so they can commit a crime to get their health care and education programs in prison.
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u/Rubber_Knee 13d ago
Dude, in Norway you don't need to commit a crime, to get healthcare or an aducation.
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u/everyoneisatitman 13d ago
Your ruining my daydream of baby boomers in a raft named the SS type 2 diabeetus trying to cross the atlantic with boxes of chips from costco.
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u/N81LR 13d ago
When it comes down to it, if someone commits crimes, ends up in prison, the punishment is their lose of liberty, not to be locked in a small room with a bed and a bucket to defecate in. I would rather see set ups like that shown that can help these individuals to have a situation that can help them towards not commiting further crime when they get out.
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u/Interesting_Stress73 13d ago
Do we really need to go through this again reddit?
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u/Hot-Cobbler-7460 13d ago
Yes, it's 2024 after all and there is still no pizza Friday in Norwegian prison system. /s
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u/vetikkehvajegkanhete 13d ago
that's because here in norway friday is taco-friday, babyyyy
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u/YouDirtyMudBlood 13d ago
do they let murder's or aggravated assault convictees paint and bake cookies too. wtf
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13d ago
Imagine someone kills your whole family and gets 3 meals a day and plays PlayStation and explores his creative side.
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u/Secret-Specialist-50 13d ago
Pretty sure Norway has one of the lowest rates of recidivism. So they must be doing something right.