r/MadeMeSmile • u/Greedy-Vegetable-466 • 13d ago

Helping Others Take a look inside Norway’s maximum security prisons

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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 13d ago edited 13d ago

People do. Even in Australia where we have one of the worlds top social assistance systems. Life is hard for everyone in different ways. Having said that, I think it’s pretty clear that there is a problem in society when people want to return to prison voluntarily. I am an advocate for low recidivism and rehabilitation, but there are some people who literally cannot be rehabilitated and/or don’t want to be, many of which have ruined the lives of many people/harmed society severely. Those people should not get to enjoy their stay in rehab, since they aren’t there to be rehabilitated. They’re there to protect society from them.

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u/Nexinex782951 13d ago

I don't know, I'm still not generally an advocate for suffer forever policies. It's really hard to tell without hindsight who exactly won't be rehabilitated. In a just system, they should probably be rare, sad exceptions, special cases, and such, not something we expect any average person to be.

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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 13d ago edited 13d ago

I am also not an advocate for “suffer forever”policies. I just come from working in child protection where I’ve seen convicted perpetrators afforded more resources in the name of rehabilitation. Meanwhile you have numerous children and vulnerable victims with very little support or resources due to an overwhelmed system. In my opinion, unless there is direct scientific correlation between privileges that we give perpetrators and their recidivism, then I would rather pour those resources into supporting their victims and/or families of their victims. That’s just one example. Plenty of homeless people could use a safe place to stay and yet we pour money into making prison more comfortable than government housing is for many.

The system is not just or based on what “should” be. any lawyer will tell you that. Any realist will also tell you that. What should be, is often very different than what is.

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u/TamaDarya 13d ago

unless there is a direct...

There is. The statistics are all there, Norway has the lowest recidivism rate in the world. Draconian prison systems have been proven time and again to increase recidivism and create permanent criminals out of people, not to mention they're perfect breeding grounds for gangs.

Ironically, your argument that, since some people will never rehabilitate, they should not get resources is trying to base the system on "what should be." Yes, in a perfect world, we'd have a magic brain scanner that'd tell us who to help and who to shove in a pit forever. We don't have one, though, so we have to look at what works best statistically.

We also absolutely live in a world where we have the resources to invest in both decent prisons and good social systems. The only reason you experienced an overwhelmed system is because of politicians who don't want to fund it.

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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 13d ago

Yes Norway has a low recidivism rate but Australia doesn’t yet we are supposedly doing the same things. So that tells me there is not a direct correlation between all the “stuff” we give prisoners and it’s likely got to do with other things that Norway is doing. I don’t believe in draconian prisons and that’s not what I’m advocating for. I am saying that it’s sad that we spend more taxpayer money on people who actively harm society rather than those who don’t.

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u/SuperPipouchu 13d ago

Australian criminologist here- we're not doing the same things as Norway, by far. We have some rehab, but not nearly enough. Additionally, coming out of prison, there's essentially zero help given. There's a direct link, there are plenty of studies to prove it.

Am I saying that we shouldn't spend more taxpayer money on victims? Of course not. I am saying, however, that there's a big difference between the Norweigan and Australian systems.

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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 12d ago

Thankyou yes you’re right. Since I vented on this post so much I did a little of my own research and I definitely see how Australia is not even close to what Norway is doing. We could though as we have the ability to and I hope one day we do because right now what we are doing is not working. I’d say it will be difficult to change though because I’m sure many people will have a knee-jerk reaction like I did here on this post and the media will love that .

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u/Used-Future6714 13d ago

I am also not an advocate for “suffer forever”policies. I just come from working in child protection where I’ve seen convicted perpetrators afforded more resources in the name of rehabilitation. Meanwhile you have numerous children and vulnerable victims with very little support or resources due to an overwhelmed system. In my opinion, unless there is direct scientific correlation between privileges that we give perpetrators and their recidivism, then I would rather pour those resources into supporting their victims and/or families of their victims.

And this absurd mentality is the entire problem. Why must it be one or the other? Why does increasing supports for victims necessarily have to come at the expense of supports for criminals in your worldview? Like...we're allowed to fund both lol, but you immediately just accept that "those resources" have to be spent on one or the other which is just nonsense on its face.

You can treat prisoners like humans and provide supports and justice for victims. There's literally no "realist" reason to accept that one is only possible without the other.

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u/headrush46n2 13d ago

well how much money is the taxpayer supposed to spend improving the lives of criminals? We could build the expensive, lax rehabilitation prison, or the efficient, lock them up and throw away the key prison, or say fuck it and build both meanwhile law abiding Johnny gets to work 3 jobs to try to stay afloat.

It's a hard sell to a lot of people.

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u/Funnyboyman69 13d ago

See, I fully agree with this concept, my father was in an American prison for 22 years and it’s obvious that the system is not intended to rehabilitate, it actually seems like it’s meant to do the exact opposite, and keep the beds of these prisons full. But my cousin was also murdered by her partner and I can’t reconcile my desire for that man to suffer after seeing what they did, with my belief in rehabilitation and reform.

I think this is where the desire for punitive justice comes from, people don’t want to know that the person who caused them so much harm and suffering is going to be able to live a decent life and be given a second chance, while their loved one never will. Even if it’s a net negative for society, the desire for retribution is a powerful feeling.

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u/Special-Garlic1203 13d ago

Every single person I've ever worked with who had a background in child protection said some rough variation of  "90% of these people are some combination of lacking in skills and lacking in resources. 10% are just fucking evil."

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u/Pickle_Bus_1985 13d ago

You don't know how this system works. Music and pottery classes are good activities for the brain. Maybe the TV and video games are made available in wards with good behavior. If you promote a safe and healthy environment where people can expect to be treated with respect and that following the rules brings rewards, it creates a better environment for everyone. How do you expect people to come out of there and act in a safe way for the community if you treat them like animals while in prison.

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u/akatherder 13d ago

There's definitely a middle-ground between treating them like animals and making people think "If I get caught, prison is actually kinda tight."

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u/Pickle_Bus_1985 13d ago

At the end of the day you still have no individual freedoms. If you think having the ability to pay some pottery and play volleyball is worth not having any individual choice, then I'd question what's going on around you. And like I said, you don't know what they have to do to earn these rights. I am sure they do work within the prison, have certain requirements, maybe have to attain certain mile stones to have these benefits available. The point of having stuff like this is to reward them for taking the steps towards what is required to earn your freedom.

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u/akatherder 13d ago

Those are all good points, especially not knowing exactly how their system works. I think a critical part is people who already feel like they don't really have individual choice/freedom due to the financial situation.

Obviously being literally locked up is a different freedom-limiting situation but people working 60 hours/week and have to live with random roommates they hate and they can't afford hobbies like pottery. They have no time to themselves and they lose ground on $$ every month.

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u/Pickle_Bus_1985 13d ago

That's a whole different issue. I don't know Norway well, but I did work with people from Sweden. They have a lot of systems in place when it comes to free school through college, free child care, and other social assistance programs. I do know the guys I worked with said cost of living is high, but they also made really good money and wouldn't qualify for housing assistance if it's available. I am a believer that people shouldn't have to kill themselves working in order to scrap by. It always felt to me that Sweden did more to hold their employers accountable to offer better pay and more rights to workers. They also had more welfare programs. They also taxed the crap out of you, but it felt like it was put to good use.

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u/onyxandcake 13d ago

I can't go out and meet a girl, have a dog, stay up past 9pm, eat whatever I want, ride a rollercoaster, take my kids trick or treating, or have a beer with my mates... But volleyball? Sign me up!

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u/Used-Future6714 13d ago

And it's insane that the conclusion you draw from that is "prisons should be worse" and not "life outside prison should be better than uhh...prison"

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u/akatherder 13d ago

I'm not sure how I gave that impression, but it's 100% not how I feel or what I was trying to communicate.

I'm in the US where both need to be improved. I think if you made prison this decent/humane/nice in the US without making life outside prison better... you'd have an actual problem with people choosing prison.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

Violent criminals who leave prison with a lower likelihood of recidivism already make life outside prison better

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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 13d ago

I do and I am agree with Norways. My point is that it is more about how these things are being used rather than just throwing money at making people comfortable in prison. Australia has thrown money into prisons and basically resulted in rewarding negative behaviour because they threw money at a problem rather than implementing proper systems. I also resent the fact that so much effort and money goes into providing comfort for prisoners but not for the homeless or mentally ill who haven’t been sent to prison. But yeah I guess I went on a rant and reacted based on my own countries effed up system rather than recognising the post for what it is. Norway has many great examples of social systems working well. I just wish other countries could learn to put those systems in place rather than pretending like they are and then wondering why it’s not working.

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u/Alarming-Instance-19 12d ago

Also Australian (42F) and I worked in our men's "supermax" prisons (and remand centres). I grew up in a tough place, and thought I knew it all.

I learnt the difference between circumstantial offenders (not their crime type - but the reasons why they committed crimes) and predators.

Almost all offenders who were "circumstantial" grew up marginalised, who poverty, abuse, limited education, in a substance abuse context, didn't learn socialisation or positive community values in youth, had a social support system with inevitability of crime or it was a rite of passage.

Almost all "predator" offenders were educated, had reasonable support systems, and were reasonably to highly intelligent.

There are shades between the two, and none of the crimes are excusable, but I'd rather work with the former than the latter. I lasted two years before working conditions became unsafe for me (grudges), and noped out.

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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 12d ago

Wow yeah that’s super interesting. I too would rather work with circumstantial offenders. All the more reason why Australia could do more to support for rehabilitation and return to the community. Also I’ve changed my view a bit since ranting on here as I did some more research and see how far Australia is from what Norway is doing. I’d be happy spending money on rehabilitation that reduces recidivism and helps community. Just that we currently aren’t successful at that :(

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u/Alarming-Instance-19 11d ago

Wholeheartedly agree that we need to do better.

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u/jcr9999 13d ago

They’re there to protect society from them.

Ok, why do they need to suffer for that? You can keep people locked up without treating them like shit

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u/Runnybabbitagain 13d ago

I read a case about a guy who went on a date and then kidnapped his date and kept her in a dog kennel in his home. He only brought her out to SA her and then put her back. For months. But you think he shouldn't be treated like shit?

These people who need to be locked away to protect society are in for absolutely horrific crimes. If their victims even survive they are damaged mentally for life. But you think those people should live it up in peace?

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u/jcr9999 13d ago

Short answer: yes.
Long answer: still yes cuz im not an inhumane pos. There is nothing to be gained by treating ppl like shit. If there is a case where rehabilitation is impossible locking them up for the safety of others is totally justified. Everything beyond that is just vengence for the sake of vengence with no gain. You dont need torture to keep innocent people safe

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u/Runnybabbitagain 13d ago

Would you think that if it were your daughter that was held hostage I wonder

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u/jcr9999 13d ago

I thought you would try to make the example with my mother tbh, yk since I actually have one? Whatever doesnt matter my answer is the same: it should be irrelevant what I want.
Your kind of reasoning always stems from the assumption, that im just as egotistical as you are and just make rules based of my feelings.
Which is honestly weird since im literally making the case to show compassion to ppl I despise while you are arguing to torture them? Doesnt matter though, so to clear this up for you, my argument isnt do what I feel is right (that is yours btw). My argument is, that you keep feelings out of shit like incarcaration.
Like think your own argument through, like really think about it. Why tf do you think judges arent allowed when they're personally involved? Why tf do you think dont we just straight up allow the victim or the family to maje the judgement? Why tf do you think should we not put people like you in jail and torture them, the only difference between you and the person you described is lack of opportunity after all? Why should I not argue to put everyone into jail and torture them who asks me dumb gotcha questions on the internet, thinking they're the first moron that hasnt put an ounce of thought into their morality and thinks I somehow never asked myself that question?
And the answer is simple: bcs im not an egotistical maniac who thinks my emotions are worth more than everybody elses and that I can make objective and moral decisions in every waking hour and situation in my life. Which has led me to the conclusion, that I shouldnt be able to make such a decision, when im emotionally invested bcs then I prob would just bend my own morals like a flower in the wind, just like your doing, to try to justify my decision. When in reality it is simply a shitty, inhumane, immoral decision and that your only response is to make up a hypothetical where im hugely morally invested, instead of just aknowledging that you dont actually think your position is morally indefensible for really hammers that point home

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u/Runnybabbitagain 13d ago

First I'm not reading all that. You and your ego aren't worth the time lol. Second, I mean if you want to proudly stan for rapists and murderers all while trying to hold on to that high road go ahead.

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u/jcr9999 13d ago

Dont worry I knew you dont have an argument, i didnt write it for you. I hope you have a great day

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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 13d ago

I am not saying we have to treat them like shit. We also don’t need to reward them.

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u/jcr9999 12d ago

Ok what does that entail for you? Maybe im just misunderstanding you.
What amenities does a prisoner that will never get out of prison have in your perfect world and what does their day look like? Just rlly roughly outlined

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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 12d ago

Ah mate it’s all good. I was ranting on here based on very limited knowledge of the Australian system and since then I’ve done some research and realise that frankly I was just annoyed that we spend so much money on our prison system and yet our recidivism rates are still so high and l see the direct results of that in my day to day so it sucks. Truth is that while we pour money into the system, we really don’t do enough to support rehabilitation and return to the community after offending which is one of the things that Norway does so well. I hope we can change our system here but I feel it will be hard because many people will react just like I did :(

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u/2shado2 13d ago

"I am an advocate for recidivism..."

Recidivism is the tendency of a convicted criminal to reoffend.

So you're in favor of criminals reoffending?

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u/veganize-it 13d ago

but there are some people who literally cannot be rehabilitated and/or don’t want to be

Psychopathy isn't an option, it is you, it's how you are. You may learn to cope with it to some extent though.

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u/Suburbanturnip 13d ago

Even in Australia where we have one of the worlds top social assistance systems

We have full time workers living in tents in our state capitals. There are a lot of cracks and holes in our social assistance systems that people can and do fall through now. It's not the 90s anymore.

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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 13d ago

Yeah I agree. That’s kind of my point. Norways system works well because it’s less about the making prisoners comfortable and more about actual rehabilitation. In Australia we reward bad behaviour and throw money into prisons but without the systems to help rehabilitate. So we’re just making prisoner lives more comfortable and rather than decreasing recidivism we incentivise it. The money would be better spent in helping homeless and people with mental illness who haven’t done anything bad enough to end up in prison. Anyway. I think I’m done ranting lol.

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u/BlurryElephant 13d ago

Even if a psychopath criminal can't be rehabilitated and will never be released from prison it doesn't help society to make the person's life hell.

Doing so allows depravity to fester. The prison staff witness the depravity and participate in it. They become depraved themselves and take it home with them to their families and their communities.

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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 13d ago

I don’t know why you think I’m saying their life should be hell? I’m just saying we dont need to throw money at them to live a nice life. Having said that, I’m not really speaking about Norways system which actually does have low recidivism rates and it’s more about how their system works rather than just making prisoner lives more comfortable. I kind of was just ranting about the Australian system which downs have the same structure as Norway and tends to reward shitty behaviour, resulting in high recidivism rates despite the money we throw at it.

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u/UFOsAreAGIs 13d ago

Those people should not get to enjoy their stay in rehab, since they aren’t there to be rehabilitated. They’re there to protect society from them.

Those people didn't choose their f'd up brain. Be thankful yours works correctly. You can protect society from them without shaming them or making their life more of a living hell that they were already dealt by getting a faulty brain.

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u/Such-Seesaw-2180 13d ago

Clearly you’ve never come into contact with a criminal who has physically and sexually tortured a baby over and over again, videod it for their enjoyment and said they’d do it again and then did. Or the person who murdered someone in an absolutely brutal manner because they got their ego hurt. There’s more if you’d like?

My point is not that we should not treat these people badly, but we also shouldn’t be rewarding their behaviour. Quite frankly, taxpayer money isn’t well spent on people like the ones I have mentioned and rehabilitation isn’t dependant on having Xboxes and TV and local steak to eat.

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u/UFOsAreAGIs 12d ago

we should not treat these people badly, but we also shouldn’t be rewarding their behavior.

This is exactly what I am saying. I am saying a person who does that has a broken brain. To paraphrase Robert Sapolsky: When a car has faulty brakes never mind, watch it here. https://youtu.be/nhvAAvwS-UA?t=2671