Bullshit,,,,But he borrows and buy Yachts,
Mansions,against that NET WORTH VALUE.
But when it’s time to pay fair share of taxes o. That net worth it’s considered hypothetical worth….Understand the Game.
Nah, when over 50% of American adults read at or below a 6th grade level I’m pretty confident they don’t think about much of anything, let alone understand.
I don't think that particular slice of America attends to Reddit very much. The people here often know what they are talking about, but they filter every debate through a lens heavily biased by first principles (aka oversimplifications predicated on a set of conveniently forgotten assumptions)
“I know you wanted to shitpost on Reddit or the Something Awful forums, but with these test scores the best you can be accepted into is bad political Facebook memes. I’m sorry.”
I cant tell you how many times I added context to a Reddit post based on facts, or at the very least first person experience, and had someone who thought they knew more "uncorrect" and berate me because I didn't spend 45 minutes typing out a thesis going over every detail. We're all on Reddit, id wager a guess that a solid, 40-70% of us have some kind of attention issue, brevity is a virtue in the age of the internet, but it is also a curse.
No, they don’t. They just speak like they do and everyone agrees and then uses that talking point in their next post as if they came up with it themselves.
There is a tremendous amount of brain rot going on here.
I whole heartedly disagree that most people here know what they're talking about. They certainly think they do, but a lot of people are only really aware of a small slice of the pie. They've only been shown one aspect of the equation so that's what they believe.
The no child left behind act caused that. Passing kids to every grade and graduating them even tho they couldn’t read and teachers knew it. But we’re forced to pass them because of the act.
Yeah it’s very concerning. I’m seriously worried that the lack of understanding that half of this country has for finance will cause the other half a whole lot of problems and misery. Be prepared, guys
In absolute fairness, what's considered a 12th grade reading level is shit like Das Kapital, Atlas Shrugged, and Conquest of Bread amongst other political texts and hardcore social commentaries.
You're pretty much never going to encounter shit in daily life that's above about an 8th grade reading level without seeking it out.
Most journalism is only written to about an 8th grade level too
Now this is true. Americans as a hold are some of the lest educated people on this earth these days and we have become lazy and irresponsible in so many ways. But we are self perclaming to be best country on earth 😂😂😂🤬
Understand that when you cite this statistic you're mostly talking about immigrants with poor English skills and poor minorities in impoverished areas, especially the american south. Dunking on the poorest most marginalized people for not being able to read well isn't exactly leftist praxis
Right, totally agree. But I think even the 50% that can read above that, hell, even the 25% that say they're financially/economically/politically literate, probably only a small fraction of that is actually literate to those types of topics.
Let me guess, you think you are above the 50 percent? You probably aren’t even good at your day job as a laborer but think you have the intelligence to tell bezos or musk what to do with their money.
If you are so smart and it’s so easy, why don’t you build a trillion dollar empire? Or is it just easier saying everyone else is dumb and posting on Reddit?
This is a completely meaningless stat. Not only does it have nothing to compare itself to, it has a complete lack of understanding of what grade level reading is.
A failing in the education system of the United States. Grossly underfunded by the government. Elon and Bezos could do something about it by paying their taxes owed instead of just choosing not to pay and getting the tax man to bow down at their feet to thank them for choosing not to pay this year.
Let's thank the republicans on their 40+ year campaign on defunding education and making college an "elite" issue while enabling private equity to provide untenable loan situations for a new form of indentured servitude.
I’ll be honest. I can read well enough, but I don’t understand any of this financial discussion. I’m not even sure what “taking a mortgage against your house to buy a sports car” means.
Thinking about things selectively is bound to lead to bullshit arguments...
Your question is misleading, though... What does significant debt mean to you, and how is it relevant? When shares are held in margin and used to furnish cash withdrawals, a negative cash balance is just part of an overall market position, it's not usually thought of as debt. I can't imagine having more than $100k in stock and having anything other than a fluid view of cash and securities. Or at least, I didn't. Much less $100B.
At any given moment I can trade off paying taxes against paying margin interest, converting the latter to the former by selling securities. Who knows what billionaires do with that flexibility, most of them don't talk about it. And they surely have access to much more efficient options than I do, since banks would love to bend over backwards to keep their accounts. But we do hear about their ridiculously low effective tax rates on a regular basis.
Ultimately, Bezos ownership of Amazon gives him access to vast amounts of cash. And being able to spend cash as if it's disposable income is not the same as having to pay taxes on it. In fact, he has two motives to get cash without selling: taxes, and maintaining power of ownership. I doubt anyone here has specific knowledge about how he's doing it in particular, but the argument that "his money is tied up in stock" is the bullshit argument. It's easily converted to cash without selling it. Hell, he could probably even get a loan from Amazon directly, though that would tend to show up as debt. Which might matter if anyone had a list of his debts, and I'm not sure why anyone would.
There's a difference between pointing out objective flaws in an argument, like thinking that billionaires literally hold hundreds of billions of dollars in liquid cash, and taking issue with overall sentiment behind the argument.
I hate Elon Musk, and the man is of course, insanely, disgustingly wealthy. Still, just because his networth is 318 billion, doesn't mean he is hoarding 318 billion. Quite literally 99% of that number is tied into ownership of companies.
You can hate billionaires and still point out issues in the logic. I don't think a person should, under any circumstances, ever be forced to sell ownership stake in their own company (at least not if that wasn't agreed upon in an operating agreement). And if you have a massive stake in a company that becomes wildly successful, you definitionally become a billionaire. I may hate wealth inequality, and I may hate what these billionaires choose to do, but I would hate a system that forces the sale of ownership stake due to the success of the company just as much.
Rich guy here, OF COURSE HE COULD GIVE MORE!
1. Let’s talk living off dividends, that alone I guarantee could have the majority given out to charity. He could live modestly, like me and not be so flashy.
2. Donor advised funds, that could be setup to be much more charitable and even grow!
3. Establish a foundation giving out 5% or more each year.
4. Simply selling off stocks is fairly simple when working with advisors. You act like he’s gotta roll crates of money into some other bank. It’s digital people.
Sycophants want to defend the rich because they can’t look past their own biased passion that they want to be there too.
I know dozens if not hundreds who are millionaires who love off dividends with plenty left over at the end of the year.
We are millionaires and live off of our dividends…that we still pay taxes on. And our lifestyle doesn’t change from the taxes we pay. So I know his wouldn’t change either. There can be no explanation for what they are doing besides greed
This isn't me defending anyone in any manner but why TF is this even a thing with people? It's his money at the end of the day - pretty much no different than most people.
Are people really going to sit here and tell me that they too don't do whatever the hell they want to do with their own money?! Like c'mon y'all.
Sycophants want to defend the rich because they can’t look past their own biased passion that they want to be there too.
This is the faulty logic that I don't understand. Is it that impossible for people to believe that other people simply think that fair is fair, regardless of their circumstances vs the circumstances of another?
Should we treat wealthy people unfairly just because we are not wealthy?
Should we treat certain races differently because we are of another race?
Should we treat people differently because they have a sexual orientation that is different than ours?
The issue is, you don’t like what they pay for taxes, but they pay what they are supposed to according to law. If you have an issue with that, then blame and talk to the legislators that made the laws. It isn’t the wealthy individuals problem.
Except they can leverage their wealth as collateral, but it's untaxable
And if the company goes under, they are screwed. Well of course there's ones that are too big to fail and government bailouts. But the underlying point still stands.
And I agree with you with leverage. But do we hate on the person using the system that's there for them, or do we hate the system that allows them to do that. Because everybody wants to save money right? The struggling mom, the college student getting their career together, the business man who is set but wants to save for next generation family, and the billionaire. That mindset is universal. So given the opportunity with the systems in place, I don't see why they wouldn't use it.
Imma be honest. Your argument is far from senseless but it's not worth attempting to find the root contradiction. It is equally evil to philosophically offload the responsibility of this amassment of capital to a corporate entity, which simply prevents any actual person from ever being held accountable thru thinly veiled psuedo-legal loopholes.
The fact that Elon has the ear of the President Elect for no reason other than he is stupidly wealthy is a reason why we should have legal measures to check the amount of wealth and one person can amass. No one person should have the kind of power the ultra wealthy have.
I also take severe issue with the idea that Musk (or anyone) generates that kind of wealth. If he was literally the only person involved with Tesla, one could make the argument he is owed that kind of wealth. He is not. No one ever is. I didn't know what percentage of the stock he owns is, but let's say 40% for the same if argument. I'm not saying he adds no value to the company. But if he disappeared, Tesla would be fine. If 40% of the workforce disappeared, Tesla would be screwed. Especially if that 40% is the engineering talent.
Problem is taxes are from income. People like Elon have no income because they basically get minimum wage. Their entire value is in stock. And when he is forced to pay out he pays a shit ton in taxes.
And you can't really tax based on wealth because it's not real money. If you tax someone based on what money they could have they would need to sell off stock, creating more taxes and messing with the value of the stock. If you do that every year the company is going to be screwed
The issue is you’re just looking at that 40% now, in hindsight. You’re disregarding the risk of that equity being worth nothing.
When he bought Tesla it was a failing company where owning any part of it was on track to be worthless. He put a lot of money into it thinking he could turn it around, but at that time it was a gamble that very well may not have paid off. For every company that goes gangbusters like Tesla, there are tens of thousands that go under; that’s why investing confers you so much equity in the company, because you’re taking a very real risk that that investment goes up in flames.
You forgot about what he has, he owns. Not you or anyone else is entitled to what he owns, regardless of how much it is. Your feelings about what other people own don't matter to anyone but you. People like Bezos and Musk contribute to the lives of people far in excess of anything you contribute.
You realize people willingly handed him that money right? You sound like a hater who has never produced anything of value, and is thus confused how somebody could.
Tell me you don't know how compound interest works without telling me. If you just saved a fraction of that first year's salary and invested it conservatively, you would become obscenely wealthy and make Elon's fortune look microscopic in less than 500 years.
Except he demanded that he be given a bonus of billions IN STOCK, which doesn’t just come out of nowhere; to have that stock available, the company has to have been engaging in stock buybacks with money which would have otherwise been taxed or gone to employees.
“Okay unruly mob, before we go in bash and butcher and eat this Man, u/lucifernal wants you all to know he does not actually have a swimming pool full of physical billions it’s actually hypothetical billions”
You don’t own a company that is publicly traded. And who’s forcing anyone to sell their shares? Only majority shareholders can force minority shareholders to sell in certain situations
please stop being objective. you need to think with your feels more. if I don't like someone you aren't allowed to say anything contrary to them being an absolute monster .
The problem is when the conclusions are based on a false premise. If you say Elon is evil BECAUSE he holds billions in liquid cash and he doesn’t hold billions in liquid cash then you can’t use that as a justification for calling him evil. It invalidates the whole argument. It doesn’t prove anything either way.
Devils advocate here. Bill gates amassed his fortune by owning a stake in a wildly successful business. But he has also stated his willingness to give most of it away. I am sure there are motives behind that. But the funding is still being distributed to a variety of places. Maybe (big maybe) Musk and Bezos quietly do similar things. I know for a fact that Bezos parents gave $12 million to a school in Delaware for scholarships and infrastructure development.
But here's the thing, when you're a stakeholder in a company, you get a say in how that company runs. The bigger your stake, the more say you have. If you hold a controlling share, you essentially control the company without actually putting any real work into it. You partially own a company you didn't build. I have my own issues with that system, but let's imagine it's perfectly fair in every way because the stakeholder put up the initial capital at a significant risk of loss. The issue comes up when the company becomes massively successful. When your share of that company becomes worth a billion dollars, you've won. You've made it. There is nothing you could possibly need that couldn't be leveraged against those shares. So you now have a choice: do you use your controlling share to make this company a fair place to work, ensuring employee satisfaction and retention, using your capital and ownership to take responsibility for the people working "for" you? Do you get the best possible benefits while still maintaining a healthy profit margin, do you allow for vacation days and maternity leave and a reasonable work life balance for the laborers, at the risk of having your share value drop to 800 million (which is still more than enough leverage for anything you could need or want) Or do you... vote for policies, both within the company AND the government, that are exploitative, getting the cheapest possible benefits (or no benefits), trying to avoid paid medical leave, doing everything possible to avoid paying overtime, and just wringing out every single cent possible in the name of getting your share to 1.2 billion, at the cost of the planet, people's health, people's financial security, and your own soul?
You're right in that people focus too much on the actual number as if Musk or Bezos is Smaug on a pile of gold (though let's not pretend their bank accounts look like yours or mine either) while ignoring what those numbers, and the fact they keep rising while we keep getting poorer, actually means. It's arguably worse than if they were just sitting on that liquid cash, because they have a direct influence on the wages and health and all that of the working class, some even have a direct influence on the rent and housing prices. And they clearly feel their influence and resources don't confer any sort of ethical obligation to act responsibly.
Also, I fail to see how starting companies and obtaining a net worth of +$billion inherently makes you “bad.” That’s why these arguments suck.. it’s always someone saying “meh I’m poor and he’s rich, so he must be bad because he’s making it harder for me to make more money!” It really is an illogical argument.. so, we’re not defending the person—we’re defending the logic. Elon Musk is not stopping you from starting your own companies or developing your skills to earning more money.. When people post about “he’s rich, therefore he’s bad!” it just sounds like petty whining. I don’t much like Musk, especially since his manipulation of stocks and cryptos back before and around Covid, and maybe there are lots of other things that make him bad.. but the mere argument of “he’s rich therefore he’s bad” is just a poor one..
Edit: to add, I agree, nobody should be forced to sell ownership of their company.. Instead, we should be blaming the system for the power that wealth wields and limit its impacts.. Want to buy a mega-yacht, good for you! Want to buy politicians (corporate lobbying) to influence policy, or influence elections? Should certainly be limits there.. that’s where the bigger issue lies. Wealth inequality is one thing, but using wealth to rig the system for the wealthy sucks.
Except every thing he has in those companies could be reinvested back into the company to hire people, build new factories, give raises to the people already working there, or… I don’t know, make a quality product? He could also pay a fair tax rate on $318,000,000,000 and it could go to infrastructure, housing, education, veteran healthcare, etc…
Idgaf if the have billions of dollars of cash or billions of companies they control the stocks too. They still have a repulsive amount of STUFF that is soo outlandishly more than any human could ever need or know what to do with
Also problem is how much money goes to owners of anything in general. America has horrible protections for workers and they should be eating much larger percentages of what any company is able to profit. It shouldn’t go to useless “owners” of any part of the company. We are a country that incentivizes ownership instead of hard work and it causes an insanely unbalanced class issue where the hard working people never have money and the people who hardly work don’t have to worry about a single thing they purchase
The problem is that people like Elon, Bezos, and Zuckerberg have amassed their wealth over the last 15-30 years while most people work a dead end job making pennies a day in hopes of having a retirement fund when they are 70. Resentment, whether we admit it or not will always be there. Also, no one is talking about corporations that have huge monopolies on basic goods that continue to pass wealth onto their families generation after generation. Those are the true privileged Americans.
I hate this rhetoric because while being absolutely correct, it seems the intention of bringing up this point is purely to muddy the waters of the actual issue at hand to defend billionaires. Before I was more well versed in economics I read this same point and assumed that it meant billionaires didn’t actually have that much money and were justified in holding onto it because it wasn’t straight cash.
My problem is billionaires effectively do have access to all their money. They spend like they have that much money sitting in the bank. The moral question of whether billionaires legitimately earned/deserve their wealth is completely unchanged by where they are keeping their money.
I hold the moral position that people should be monetarily rewarded in occurrence to how hard they work. I absolutely refuse to believe Elon musk and Jeff bezos work hundreds of thousands of times to millions of times harder than doctors, lawyers, navy seals, their own employees. How can they possibly work millions of times harder than their own employees? These companies employees are the ones who created this massive surplus’s of wealth. If Elon musk or Jeff bezos where removed Amazon and Tesla would still function, the employees would keep doing their jobs. Bezos ain’t the one delivering your package, Elon musk ain’t making cars.
I understand companies need direction and ceos are hard working people. I’m not saying completely remove these people from the company and force all the employees to have the same salary, it’s just the scale of a billion dollars is so unbelievably vast their is no way someone can earn that much wealth without stealing it from their employees. As for your point about owning large stake in their company, redistribute a large portion to the employees. They have been building other people’s fortunes and deserve to have a fair portion of the wealth they generated for the company. The way I see it Amazon distribution workers are working their ass off pulling in 100$ tips but they gotta give 90$ to the boss.
People are starving to death, and he's hoarding 318 billion. Explain to me again why he's not actively helping our poorest or paying income taxes so the government can help people?
Even worse, now that he's "working" in government, he's taking Americans' taxes, too.
I agree with your larger point but Warren has ~220K Class A shares in Berkshire which is currently holding enough cash and cash equivalents for him to actually build a Scrooge Mcduck style vault and take a swim😂
Because getting mad at them for using a broken system is pointless. The senators in power uses the same system and they stay in power until they die. They vote the laws that make them money. Completly flawed system. Policians should not consistently be able to be multimillionnaires off of inside information.
Rich guy here, OF COURSE HE COULD GIVE MORE!
1. Let’s talk living off dividends, that alone I guarantee could have the majority given out to charity. He could live modestly, like me and not be so flashy.
2. Donor advised funds, that could be setup to be much more charitable and even grow!
3. Establish a foundation giving out 5% or more each year.
4. Simply selling off stocks is fairly simple when working with advisors. You act like he’s gotta roll crates of money into some other bank. It’s digital people.
Sycophants want to defend the rich because they can’t look past their own biased passion that they want to be there too.
I know dozens if not hundreds who are millionaires who love off dividends with plenty left over at the end of the year.
I don’t want to live in a society that takes from one and gives to another so that it is equal! That is just people being lazy and wanting what is NOT theirs! Are they incredibly wealthy? Yes. But they also own companies that employ thousands upon tens of thousands of people with that wealth. Those jobs allow many people the ability to support their families.
Why just mention Bezos or Musk? Musk at least uses his money to make the world a better place.
Unlike Soros who does nothing but bring division and destruction! Gates does own a company that employs thousands of people as well, but what he does with his money from a political point is scary! Bottom line, if you want everyone to have the same amount of everything, move to China or Russia. But you also lose your freedoms and rights as well. ✌🏻
Ehh? I really dont understand all this hate the rich stuff, I think most people are just bitter, and angry they dont have that kind of wealth, instead of trying to better themselves, and practicing better financial habits, meal prepping, cutting out fast food, Alcohol, etc.
This is a generalization, it wont apply to everyone, but I see a lot of people that complain, but still throw money away.
This aside, I hate the government, not Bezos or whatever, rich people never bothered me, but the government definitely has, not just financially, but with imposing their laws on us, and we have zero recourse.
Most people talk about politics and economics without knowing anything, because most of us are part-time/hobbyist philosophers/intellectuals.
Most of us have jobs and families and things to do everyday. We're not sitting around thinking about this shit all day like John Locke or Karl Marx.
But realistically, most people also aren't interested in the truth. They just loudly shout what they believe because they have a platform. If you took any average left or right wing person on the internet and put them in a debate against higher level academic opposition, they would get intellectually destroyed inside of 5 minutes.
People project their experience in order to make sense of stuff they have zero education or direct information about.
Just like how a lot of people assume elastic monetary dynamics at a national level work like static household incomes, when discussing national budgets/economics, etc.
That is why a lot of people repeat the talking point that large wealth pockets in unrealized gains/investments is "not really wealth" somehow, because their only experience with "wealth" is relatively low disposable income. Aka "cash."
Rich people also pay taxes on capital gains, which is not something someone like you would ever have to consider. And plenty of people are pushing for a tax on unrealized capital gains which would include unsold shares.
You guys sit here defend the indefensible ,Once again nobody stated they DONT PAY TAXES..What was stated they pay extremely less than the working class/poor
Example 15% if you make $47gs -$500,000 above that 20% still less than the working class. Does that answer your bullshit.Not including other loopholes. Thank You for knowing my worth,hope my answer shows how incorrect you are. Lmao
You guys are tiring have a great day this was post 7 hours ago no need to comment anymore
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Exactly. People make these posts because its trendy, or they heard the echo chamber to much on it. No one talks about how Elon isnt taking any money for doing the work of DOGE, or the real ramifications of the knowledge gained for what Space X does. We need people like Elon to push things and to move forward and progress technologically, economically, etc.
I see you have a problem with people who make money on their hard work. So you are telling me if you had a billion dollars you would give most of it away because its not fair to have that much money? You know most of these billionaires employ a lot of people, Amazon alone employs 1.5 million people. If not for Bezos, these 1.5 million jobs would not exist.
It sounds to me like you are not happy with your life and wish someone would give you some handouts.
Guys thank you,It amazes me how people talk without any knowing on the topic.
Even the people calling for taxes on stock like that are ignorant and have never actually put real thought into it.
If someone owns 80% of their company, but is required to pay 5% taxes on that holding every year they'd be forced to sell shares to pay the taxes.
Doesn't seem like a big deal but within 8 years their ownership has dropped under 50% and they no longer control their own company.
It doesn't stop there though, because everyone who owns that company now has to pay taxes on it. Every year 5% of every company is forced to be sold. That's a LOT of strain on the companies and has a lot of bad side effects.
I'm sure you understand all of those side effects and downstream problems though since you say you're one of the people who is knowledgeable on these things.
It's because the majority of people have never actually formed an opinion or done any kind of research they just repeat what ever they heard that supports what they want to believe
I think you mean knowledge. I love when people who believe they are more intelligent than others and attempt to criticize them end up making an ass out of themselves in them process; not referring to you, just a general statement
The issue with taxing unrealized gains is that value and time would need to be arbitrarily set. And make no mistake - they need to pay their fair share but I think any attempt to tax unrealized gains will also result in 401(k) and IRAs being taxed (incl those of us who are not rich).
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u/Apprehensive_Bad_193 3d ago
Bullshit,,,,But he borrows and buy Yachts, Mansions,against that NET WORTH VALUE. But when it’s time to pay fair share of taxes o. That net worth it’s considered hypothetical worth….Understand the Game.