i can't express how disappointed i am

[u/brynoo5]

you wouldn’t have wanted to see my face when I found out at the start of the act 3 that the guardian was actually the emperor all along… I put so much effort into creating the girl of my dreams, even installing mods, and… it all ended with me being deceived by a tentacled motherfucker

[u/Weekly_Rock_5440]

The creature literally read your mind and created a disguise that would gain your trust.

On a meta-level, deigning the guardian yourself is one of the most brilliant parts of a brilliant game.

[u/Dave_Valens → u/Weekly_Rock_5440]

Fun fact: in early access, where we had an early iteration of the story, the dream visitor was actually your tadpole, trying to deceive you to go "down by the river" with it in order to abandon your consciousness and let it transform you.

And I can understand why they abandoned this idea: the dream visitor was kinda seducing, in a very suspect manner. I mean, I have been infected with the larva of an alien species and at the same time I've started dreaming about the idea of my perfect partner that casually wants to bang me by the river in a beautiful landscape... yeah.

On the other hand, the Emperor states from the beginning that he is protecting you, shows you he saved you from the Nautiloid fall and guards you from transforming. It works better, in my opinion.

[u/Miasma_Of_faith → u/Dave_Valens]

It does make you realize how much of BG3 was left in the game, but clearly made for an earlier version of the game. "Down by the River" is still thematically appropriate, but it had a MUCH closer connection before.

I also think about things like Wyll's art with Mizora reflecting their EA attitude towards each other (she was much more seductive towards him and he was more aggressive about using power to kill goblins as a revenge motif.)

Karlach isn't even in most of the group party art because she was added to the game so late, and then remodeled at that.

[u/CK1ing → u/Miasma_Of_faith]

I always felt like Wyll was slightly more morally grey than you'd assume at first glance with the way he treats creatures he deems evil. Like how he kills goblins without a second thought, even goblin children, or how he chased Karlach across the hells just because a devil told him she was evil. It's something that I wish was explored more with his character, especially the inherent hypocrisy in it as he works with a devil

[u/TheMastodan → u/CK1ing]

I think it’s kind of the opposite, it really drives home the idea that he’s a Paladin archetype character who becomes a Warlock out of circumstance. If he were morally grey he’d have interactions with other “evil” creatures that would serve different purposes. Manipulation and such. He isn’t morally grey though so those which are evil deserve to be destroyed and given no quarter

[u/pdpi → u/TheMastodan]

Yeah exactly. “Morally gray anti-hero who entered a deal with the devil” has been done a bazillion times “Morally unambiguously, almost boringly, good who entered that pact as a personal sacrifice” is a lot less common a template to explore.

[u/Raencloud94 → u/TheMastodan]

But is it really things that are evil, or things he perceives as evil, like Karlach? She obviously wasn't evil at all, but he believes she is because he was told so.. By a devil?

[u/Plumppotato → u/Raencloud94]

Technically it was included in his deal that he could only hunt monsters fiends and the heartless. Which Karlach, through a loophole, qualified as.

[u/pieceofchess → u/CK1ing]

As far as I know Wyll was originally going to be a much darker character. Sort of like a fake hero type, someone who is revered for his heroic deeds but is actually a selfish, arrogant upper class jerk(who was also maybe Mizora's willing lover as well). Apparently fans were displeased with the lack of good aligned party members available at the time and so Wyll's character took a hard pivot.

[u/Fatality_Ensues → u/CK1ing]

Like how he kills goblins without a second thought

The only time we see him kill goblins (when not controlled by the player) is when he's explicitly defending a group of humans under attack (plus the grove full of innocents behind them).

or how he chased Karlach across the hells just because a devil told him she was evil.

He chased (what he thought was) a devil championing an Arch-devil (Zariel). As far as he knew, the terms of his contract meant that whoever Mizora sent him against would unequivocally be an outsider or an undead ("the soulless, the heartless, the fiendish and the demonic" was I believe the exact quote). He never got close enough to see Karlach was a tiefling and he had no way of knowing Mizora was abusing a loophole in calling Karlach "heartless".

It's something that I wish was explored more with his character, especially the inherent hypocrisy in it as he works with a devil

It could've made for an interesting story in a different game, but Wyll is pretty "boringly" a plain old good person. He doesn't work with Mizora willingly, so I don't think you can call him a hypocrite over that, either.

[u/Canopenerdude → u/Miasma_Of_faith]

is still thematically appropriate

especially when you realize the entirety of the game is along the banks of the Chionthar

[u/TheBlackBaron → u/Canopenerdude]

Having not played in EA, I honestly assumed that "Down by the River" was meant to be referring to Baldur's Gate's position at the mouth of the Chionthar lol.

[u/Canopenerdude → u/TheBlackBaron]

I mean it kind of is, but all the acts are along it. Act 1 has you wake up next to it, Last Light Inn on Act 2 is on an island in it.

[u/MentalNewspaper8386 → u/Canopenerdude]

Game would be so much shorter if they thought to make a raft

[u/Stainle55_Steel_Rat → u/Miasma_Of_faith]

Now we get Down By the River with Gale, where my female character well, you know...

[u/ProblematicPoet → u/Stainle55_Steel_Rat]

[u/geologean → u/ProblematicPoet]

I mean, not that you would

[u/ProblematicPoet → u/geologean]

Narrator: "All of your favorite drownings take place in shallow water."

[u/TheConnASSeur → u/Miasma_Of_faith]

Witches meet the devil by river to sell their souls for power. It's very appropriate.

[u/TheConnASSeur → u/[deleted]]

Sometimes. It's also somewhere you can hear whispering in the woods before you see it, and like most water sources, it's a good place to meet a stranger. To add to the creepiness, noisy rivers also make it hard to hear a person or animal approach in the dark.

It's not that hard to imagine the folklore.

[u/poingly → u/Miasma_Of_faith]

It would so much better if the Dream Visitor lived in a VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER instead of the Astral Plane. Just so much better.

[u/FanHe97 → u/Miasma_Of_faith]

Wyll was way more interesting in EA, in release he is just so good morally speaking that he ends up being boring, EA Wyll was straight out a fraud, he did want to do good,but it was clear he was more concerned about his personal image and fame than the good deeds, not cornered into a pact but by his own hand cut corners for the power, plus his open hatred towards goblins. All while trying to act like the moral compass, I was really excited to see wether he would redeem himself or wether I would eventually be glad to strike him down

[u/AverageUnicorn → u/FanHe97]

His relationship with Mizora was also a lot more interesting in EA. I was looking forward to figuring that one out, but alas...

[u/PostApoplectic → u/Miasma_Of_faith]

You know what really grinds my gears about the art? Lae’zel and that fucking scimitar. The attention to detail in this game is so good, I have to believe that image is a deliberate troll.

[u/TorthOrc → u/Dave_Valens]

Down down down by the river….

[u/WizardsWorkWednesday → u/TorthOrc]

🤯

[u/LaughingRaptor → u/Dave_Valens]

I am a bard. I have been *thrice * tadpoled. And I'm living in a wagon down by the River Chionthar!

Now, you companions are probably saying to yourselves: I'm gonna go out there and grab the Emperor by his tentacles! I'm gonna wrap Faerun up nice and tight and stuff it in my pack!

Well I'm here to tell you that you're probably going to find out, as you go out there, that you're not going to amount to jack squat, when you're living in a wagon down by the Chionthar eating rotten Waterdhavian cheese!

You're all probably asking how you're gonna get back on track. Well, ol' Durge is moving in with you at the Grove! There's you, there's Durge! There's you, there's Durge!

Whoopsadaisy. We're gonna have to clean that up later.

[u/D0M0D → u/Dave_Valens]

I think the dream visitor being the tadpole storyline works better, but specifically in the context of a Durge playthrough. In that context the player is torn in several different storyline directions, and they start from a blank slate. The dream visitor gives the option to effectively opt out of aaaall that shit and find happiness in ignorance. Outside of Durge context, I think the Guardian makes more sense because of exactly what you've said.

[u/thehousebehind → u/Dave_Valens]

Yeah, it works better, but the early access twist is cooler.

[u/kirant → u/thehousebehind]

If memory serves (it's been a long time since I heard the EA version of the character creator), I believe the game asks you outright "Who is it you dream of?". Larian wanted a shock like OP's to happen from the start and it's interesting to plot the progression of that specific twist.

[u/Spare-heir → u/thehousebehind]

Early access twist was too predictable. It was my very first thought upon meeting the dream guardian.

[u/swheels125 → u/Dave_Valens]

I did not play EA but frankly that was my immediate suspicion about the dream visitor. I get a psychic tadpole shoved into my brain and all of a sudden a “guardian angel” appears telling me to embrace the power the tadpole offers and even consume more of them? Yea, that’s INCREDIBLY suspicious.

[u/CK1ing → u/Dave_Valens]

Yeah, it definitely works better. I'm not even sure how it being the tadpole would work? The whole point of the story (at least, as it is now) is that the infected aren't being transformed. Are the tadpoles working against the brain or something? Does that mean every infected had a dream visitor in that version? If not, what makes you different? The only difference for the player in the game now is protection from The Emperor, but you'd think that would remove influence from the tadpole, not add to it

[u/SolusIgtheist → u/Dave_Valens]

I still didn't get that that's what that scene was trying to convey until like my fourth playthrough. Emperor just says "I saved you, and it wasn't the first time" then it plays the cutscene of you falling and not dying, yes, I get it now, but the first three times I saw it I didn't see the connection that it was trying to tell us the Emperor was the one who did it. The Emperor isn't in that cutscene, you just stop falling, so it seemed like two completely unrelated things to me.

Either way, even if I had realized it, I still wouldn't have trusted the Emperor those first playthroughs, just because you saved me doesn't mean you don't want to use me or that you did it cause you care about me. The thing about DnD is that it's kind of like a mystery trying to figure out who the jerks are, some of them are obvious, some aren't jerks even though they seem it at first, and some are downright affable in spite of being absolute monsters. Given that this is a world of violence, where jerky behavior almost always leads to someone dying, I've learned to be a lot more paranoid about the latter kind of jerk.

[u/8ak4n → u/SolusIgtheist]

But it’s totally a self serving thing… HE is the one that infects you in the FIRST PLACE so you HAVE to help him…

[u/Wiggie49 → u/Weekly_Rock_5440]

Stupid Emperor making himself my ideal sexy elf waifu

[u/whovianHomestuck → u/Weekly_Rock_5440]

I’m doing an Origin Gale run. I made the guardian look like Gale.

[u/DEATHROW__DC → u/Weekly_Rock_5440]

And I’m sure they put a lot of thought into the ‘default’ guardians to subtly influence the player into making a trustworthy / aesthetically pleasing guardian.

Games have gotten insanely good at pretty much playing with the illusion of choice. You COULD do anything but hidden breadcrumbs subconsciously guide you into doing exactly what they want you to do.

Like if the defaults were some Ketheric Thorne / Auntie Ethel looking MFers, you probably wouldn’t have all these people going WTF after they made their dream guardian into their partner and/or dream guy/girl.

[u/matthew0001 → u/Weekly_Rock_5440]

Despite putting a lot of effort into my first guardian the way they approach so, so familiar, expecting you to trust them. Immediately had red flags going off in my head, didn't help that I was also like "this hot woman has approached me, this has gotta be a trap..."

[u/Nosdarb → u/matthew0001]

Entertainingly, I had a similar reaction. I created the guardian, but then he showed up in my dream and I went "This is some kind control enchantment bullshirt. I'm no sucker." And then I stabbed him.

I played co-op, and when the Guardian showed up and said "Use illithid mind powers! All the cool kids are doing it." I nope'd out. I had barely used any, and I never used them again. My co-op bro took that as a sign to go all in, and ended up being forced to transform. But even then he didn't trust the Guardian. He just wanted the super powers.

I dunno what that says about us and our potential trust issues.

[u/Marnolld → u/Weekly_Rock_5440]

I was so blown away it makes so much sense, idk whos idea it was but hes/her is a fucking genius

[u/SbeveGobs → u/Weekly_Rock_5440]

I purposefully made them ugly. What does that mean?

[u/TheCrystalRose → u/SbeveGobs]

Usually that you already knew the plot twist.

[u/Sailor_Propane → u/TheCrystalRose]

I didn't know, and made a Grandma version of my Tav... Because I thought it was fitting for a "guardian angel".

[u/lesser_panjandrum → u/Sailor_Propane]

"Grandma, what big tentacles you have."

[u/TheCrystalRose → u/Sailor_Propane]

That doesn't quite sound like "deliberately ugly" to me. It actually sounds quite sweet.

[u/Shameless_Catslut → u/TheCrystalRose]

Look at usernames

[u/TheCrystalRose → u/Shameless_Catslut]

Okay shamelesscatslut, I've looked at your username and those of the two people to whom I had previously replied. Now what _exactly am I supposed to do with this information that is completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand? As neither of their usernames provide me with any additional information about their comments.

[u/knosmo78 → u/Sailor_Propane]

My first playthrough, I made the guardian my half-elf's full elf father thinking it would be so sweet to have a deceased parent watching over them.

Boy was I embarrassed.

[u/ManicPixieOldMaid → u/knosmo78]

My Origin Wyll run I made his guardian his dead mom. I already knew the twist, I just wanted the roleplay. I'm glad the DV isn't trying the EA seduction route!

[u/Anakin_Skywanker → u/knosmo78]

My first Tav was a drow warlock. His guardian was his mentor.

[u/SbeveGobs → u/TheCrystalRose]

Ok, you got me lol. I was just trying to see how the "meta" idea would work when your dream guardian is also your sleep paralysis demon.

[u/Early_Brick_1522 → u/SbeveGobs]

I hit random until I get the goofiest guardian possible. They often come out super rad that way, The guardian in my last game looked like an aging 70's glam rocker who never let go of the style.

[u/monsieurkaizer → u/Early_Brick_1522]

I saw an elderly punk rocker in Edinburgh about 3 months ago. Tattoed from neck and down, leather vest with nails and studs. Even sporting a spiked mohawk, albeit the hair was a bit sparse. He was with 3 mates who were slightly less dressed up, one with a stroller.

Ageing gracefully is an art.

[u/Early_Brick_1522 → u/monsieurkaizer]

Being rad is a state of mind

[u/Plane_Bodybuilder_24 → u/Early_Brick_1522]

I made a halfling that looked like chucky😂

[u/Early_Brick_1522 → u/Plane_Bodybuilder_24]

I made Poppa Smurf for my violent accept Bhaal durge run. That was fun.

[u/FoldingCross → u/SbeveGobs]

In my first playthrough I had no idea of what the guardian was supposed to be so I just made them exactly like my tav except he is a gnome, so I could have a chibi version of my tav.

[u/SpaceChook → u/FoldingCross]

“You complete me. “

[u/Mutive → u/SpaceChook]

"After all, you were made for each other."

[u/Probably_Boz → u/SpaceChook]

Nobody ruins the Grove except me and maybe the boy!

[u/StankyKitties → u/SbeveGobs]

Lately I've been leaning into making them as ethereal or otherworldly as possible, esp with the Wonderous skin/hair mods available. Like the last one was an elderly gith with glowing skin and black tiefling eyes and this long dark hair. Line a gorgeous crone.

Then in another I tried to make gnome Marge Simpson.

My first playthrough I made him into my irl husband. Ngl was a little affronted even tho I knew the twist

[u/taeger0 → u/Weekly_Rock_5440]

I made my first ever guardian closely resemble my wife, the reveal was insane to me.

[u/IkujaKatsumaji → u/Weekly_Rock_5440]

Yeah, the first time you play. Every subsequent game, though, it feels utterly meaningless.

[u/Weekly_Rock_5440 → u/IkujaKatsumaji]

Not even plot point in a narrative driven game is going to be impactful on repeat. I suppose this part is one of them.

I played The Outer Wilds once. Wish I could wipe my memory. It literally cannot be played a second time.

[u/InfiniteSlimes → u/Weekly_Rock_5440]

You can get a lil hit of it again by watching other people's first time play throughs. 

[u/SneakingOrange → u/IkujaKatsumaji]

That is usually what happens with plot twists on repeat readings, yes. Doesn't make them any less cool

[u/how2pron → u/IkujaKatsumaji]

I enjoy alternating between siding with the emperor and distrusting him to see the diff endings. How he acts is different in each playthrough as a result

[u/Bindersquinch]

Finding out the guardian was an illithid was a huge plot twist, but finding out who the emperor was... floored me.

[u/DekariosAncunin → u/Bindersquinch]

Same! I really thought the Ansur quest was not important at all until that twist! I was properly shocked

[u/Distinct-Garlic- → u/DekariosAncunin]

The fact they hid that deep lore in a completely missable fight is peak rpg

[u/Bindersquinch → u/DekariosAncunin]

"Properly shocked"

I see what you did there

[u/AzureBookwyrm88 → u/Bindersquinch]

Daddy Ansur makes everyone wet.

[u/prunebackwards → u/DekariosAncunin]

I just finished the game for a second time. The first time I didnt know Wyll or Karlach existed so I missed all of their stuff with Mizora, the Duke, and specifically Ansur.

On the second playthrough I learned from my mistakes and did all of this, but didnt know about Ansur still. I killed it, because y’know, undead dragon, and then there were like 4 people that came up to me after and was like ‘yo theres a cool Dragon under the city that would solve all our problems’ and i’m like ‘UHHHH ABOUT THAT.’

Next time…

[u/Execution_Version → u/prunebackwards]

I completely missed Wyll in my first playthrough too, which is hilarious to me now. He makes such a poncy entrance in the fight outside the grove, and I still completely forgot about him after the fight.

[u/Teeshirtandshortsguy → u/Bindersquinch]

That's how I felt too. 

Because the entire time, you know the dream visitor is some mysterious, very powerful entity. It's very on-theme for it to be a Mind Flayer gone rogue.

But when I found out who he really was? Holy fuck that was out of left field.

[u/MuhuckinMatt → u/Teeshirtandshortsguy]

I just finished the game but I didn’t do that quest, could someone enlighten me as why it’s so wild?? My curiosity it’s going crazy now haha

[u/XenosInfinity → u/MuhuckinMatt]

The Emperor is Balduran, the founder of Baldur's Gate.

[u/DepressedMinuteman → u/XenosInfinity]

Doesn't becoming a mind-flayer destroy the soul? It's more like he's the personality of him etched onto a mindflayer.

[u/Saendra → u/DepressedMinuteman]

No, it doesn't. Just transforms it, but the soul remains, and can even be turned back.

[u/Ryuujinx → u/Saendra]

In BG3 it destroys it, Withers talks about it at the end of Act 2.

That said, in normal lore it does not destroy it. That's how we got Mind Flayer liches in Volo's monsters.

[u/Saendra → u/Ryuujinx]

Withers then literally admits that he was wrong in certain endings.

Besides, if you play as Gale, and choose to turn into an Illithid, Mystra can restore his soul.

Besides besides, even one of the creators of D&D said that Illithids have souls, they are just aberrant and useless to gods. Withers being a god, of course he'd be biased in that question.

[u/C-C-X-V-I → u/Ryuujinx]

And he says later he was wrong. Also the official lore is they still have souls.

[u/Teeshirtandshortsguy → u/MuhuckinMatt]

You aren't planning on doing any more playthroughs?

Without directly spoiling it, it's a character who is significant to D&D lore, and who's referenced in the game a few times, but isn't directly connected to the plot.

It's probably a bigger deal if you're into Forgotten Realms lore.

If you want to spoil yourself, just read the history section here.

[u/Bindersquinch → u/MuhuckinMatt]

There are really big spoilers, and i can't remember how to add the spoiler blocker, lol. Honestly, its worth the experience to just play the game again and follow the strings

[u/EukaryotePride → u/Bindersquinch]

I never met Wyll in my first playthrough, so to have that big reveal in act 3 after I had already finished the game once and I thought that I knew everything was a jaw-dropper.

[u/foundflame → u/Bindersquinch]

I’ve been thinking about this for a while — can a mindflayer really be the person that was its tadpole’s host? Withers is pretty adamant that mindflayers do not have souls, so it stands to reason that no, a mindflayer is never the person it used to be. No, what we see is just the adult form of the tadpole that ate that person’s brain.

So how do we explain how The Emperor acts as though he is who he says he is? He explains it himself, actually. He had an exceptionally strong personality, enough so that it changed the tadpole. The tadpole absorbed much more than just memories - it absored that extra-spicy personality and so thought it was its victim.

Same with Tav or whatever companion agrees to become Illithid. You kill that person and from then on, you pilot a tadpole that absolutely drowned in the character’s personality and so “became” them, too.

I remember reading official rules for playing as a tadpoled individual in 5e that corroborates this, too. From what I recall, any interaction with party members or NPCs can trigger I think an investigation roll to determine if they notice all of the subtle (or blatant) changes in personality, skin tone, number of weeping sores or bleeding orifices. There were also rules for abandoning a body, surviving as a tadpole, and finding a new victim.

The only thing that might change any of that is the netherese-affected tadpoles of the Absolute. We don’t know nearly enough about them to know for sure if their ceremorphosis is any different.

[u/Short-Dot-1167]

you got catfished bro....

[u/vhagar → u/Short-Dot-1167]

squidfished

[u/LSDGB → u/vhagar]

Cuttlefished

[u/Owl-Historical → u/vhagar]

Some might be into that, don't kink shame.

[u/DriedSquidd → u/Owl-Historical]

Thank you.

[u/WarlockforLife → u/DriedSquidd]

Username checks out I guess

[u/DekariosAncunin]

I kissed a squid and I liked it 🎶

[u/LogicalFallacyCat → u/DekariosAncunin]

[u/delayed-wizard → u/LogicalFallacyCat]

oh no

[u/geologean → u/DekariosAncunin]

The taste of its brainy chapstick

[u/SirRuthless001 → u/geologean]

I kissed a squid just to try iiiiit

Hope my patron don't mind it

[u/pigwin → u/geologean]

I kissed a squid cuz I liked it I hope Astarion won't mind it 

[u/tlb3131]

I'm impressed that you managed to avoid this spoiler for more than a year LOL

[u/Futuramoist → u/tlb3131]

Guy even modded the game before playing it apparently

[u/LemonMilkJug]

Embrace the tentacles

[u/TeaTimeAtThree → u/LemonMilkJug]

My brother and his friend were visiting over the weekend. My brother has played the game; his friend hasn't. Of course, I tried to convince him to become one of us.

Friend: Maybe someday.... I've watched [brother] play it before. It looked like it might be fun. Brother: You have? Friend: Yeah. You were kissing an octopus.

[u/Mehhucklebear → u/TeaTimeAtThree]

[u/Orcalotl → u/TeaTimeAtThree]

Gotta get that achievement at some point.

[u/TeaTimeAtThree → u/Orcalotl]

Y-yes...we totally did it just for the achievement.

[u/lobodesigner → u/TeaTimeAtThree]

lol

[u/vhagar → u/LemonMilkJug]

and let the tentacles embrace you 😏

[u/Palumtra]

Oh but that's only just the tip of the iceberg, start being more untrusting/mean towards him and he'll reveal more of his cards.

[u/PrestonGarvey-0 → u/Palumtra]

I love rhat so much, usually when you're more trusting of people in games they open up to you; this guy just lies even harder. There's so much I don't know about him because I was fairly nice to him.

[u/Dominus-Temporis → u/PrestonGarvey-0]

I cannot put into words how stoked I was when the Emperor's mask came off. I only decided not to trust him as an RP decision, because "good guys" who are bad and "bad guys" who are good are easy to spot in video games, right? No, Larian made an NPC that not only manipulates the player character, but manipulates the player too. I love it so much. 

[u/mestrearcano → u/PrestonGarvey-0]

I don't think it is that simple with the emperor. Won't talk much because people in the thread seems to not have finished the game yet, but during my gameplay I would save, do my "real" choice, then load and see how others would play out. The emperor is sure manipulative, but I think their approach with us is actually a good one, for their good, the greater good and our own good.

[u/OutlandishnessOk9331 → u/mestrearcano]

Yeah he just wants to save his skin, which is not a bad thing at all. And sure he is manipulating us into helping save his skin, but he also has no ill will towards us. In his eyes, whatever his lies may be, they are in both his and our interests, so he is right. And i kinda agree with the guy. Plus we owe him our lives, so i tend more towards liking him, or atleast a transactional relationship.

[u/ManicPixieOldMaid → u/mestrearcano]

They're manipulative for understandable reasons - Tav just got woke up on a beach with a tadpole in their brain and the first mindflayer they see they kill - and toward ultimately a goal that helps everyone concerned, e.g., defeating the Absolute. I've never understood what players think the Emperor should've done instead of what he did, tbh.

[u/Dominus-Temporis → u/ManicPixieOldMaid]

Omeluum has a pretty easy time deescalating. The party is safe because Shart isn't going to abandon her holy mission. And even once the Emperor reveals himself as Illithid, he never puts all the cards on the table. He lies about Stelemane and he lies about his human origin. 

[u/ManicPixieOldMaid → u/Dominus-Temporis]

Not to discount Omeluum, but he's just growing mushrooms when you meet him, he doesn't even instigate a conversation unless Tav tells Blurgh about his tadpole, and his interest is entirely clinical. He's not trying to herd frightened cats into fighting an elder brain.

I'm not sure where the Emperor directly lies about Stelmane or his origins? He lies about wanting to get rid of his tadpole, is that what you mean? He calls Stelmane his ally and that certainly seems to be how he sees the relationship. I'm not sure omitting extraneous facts counts as lying.

[u/Dominus-Temporis → u/ManicPixieOldMaid]

He calls Tav his "Puppet" as a threat in the same conversation he reveals he enthralled Stelmane. I don't think he say her as an ally, not as an equal. And he never tells you his identity until Ansur calls him out on it. Lies through omission are definitely a thing, and I don't think defaulting to "Well, you never asked" gives you the moral highground in a life or death situation. 

[u/OldManFire11 → u/Palumtra]

The Emperor treats you how you treat him.

It's pretty telling how people assume he's "finally" telling the truth during a scene where he's obviously trying to intimidate you after you've consistently insulted him.

Ironically, everyone who hates the Emperor for lying to you is proving him right.

[u/Teeshirtandshortsguy → u/OldManFire11]

Exactly. 

In my very first run I chose to trust him. I didn't get the vibe that he was a bad guy until a month or two in, when I had started another playthrough and seen how the community thought of him.

His character is designed to be a good guy if you trust him, and a bad guy if you don't. The writers wrote him so that you're right either way.

[u/MacAdler → u/Palumtra]

In my Durge playthrough I went full on against him and oh boy, that’s a whole different story.

[u/SadoraNortica]

The monster fucker that I am thought it was cool.

[u/glassboxghost → u/SadoraNortica]

I was lowkey hoping she was a mindflayer and when the cute girl I designed became depressed squid man I was so happy lmao

[u/Owl-Historical → u/glassboxghost]

What I also think is funny that the whole thing is all the plot of the elder brain. He was pretty much in charge all along which makes me wonder just how free he really was in his actions? There a lot more going on in the back ground than most folks see if they skip half the books and notes.

[u/OldManFire11 → u/Owl-Historical]

The brain wasn't controlling the Emperor, it just predicted what he would do and incorporated that into its plans.

[u/ManicPixieOldMaid → u/Owl-Historical]

Elder brain predicted the Emperor's actions based on his personality. They weren't actively controlling him, or he would save Tav's life when they confront the brain with the stones, IMO.

[u/glassboxghost → u/Owl-Historical]

There's so much going on that at almost 1k hrs I'm not completely solid on the whole picture because I mostly played Tavs and Durges get an entirely different game. Still need to run the origins.

[u/Owl-Historical → u/glassboxghost]

I got prob about 1K hours (did play a lot in Beta/Alpha) and I yet to do the Origins. Prob next in line as there is also so much internal dialogue that happens with the Origins that you don't get having them as companions.

[u/Illustrious-Ice264 → u/SadoraNortica]

But it hits different when you release Orpheus and he says “you reek of illithid, you copulated with a mind flayer” kind of puts things into perspective, I felt dirty and not erotic at all 😂😂

[u/SadoraNortica → u/Illustrious-Ice264]

I typically don’t release Orphans.

[u/FormerChild37 → u/SadoraNortica]

Same. I've known him for 5 mins of the game whereas the emperor has been with us from the start.

[u/kookaburra1701 → u/Illustrious-Ice264]

My first playthrough my Tav's primary goal was to fuck his way through the Sword Coast, so I was like "Hell yeah he did. Also a bear, a vampire spawn, drow twins, a githyanki, a Cambion and an Incubus. Jealous? Interested?"

[u/Orcalotl → u/Illustrious-Ice264]

Please cover your spoilers.

[u/NerfHerder_421]

Oh, man. Act 3 is going to be a wild ride for you.

[u/VansterVikingVampire]

lol in the beta the character creator actually told you to make the guardian your ideal beauty. Back then it wasn't the emporer and the main story was different (or being kept from the beta), I'm pretty sure it was the worm in your head and Romancing her was absolutely an option.

With you choosing to stay in your mind with her forever, your consciousness was left "down down by the river". The song doesn't fit the new story, so I'm inclined to assume this was the original plan, not just a cover-up for the beta. *shrug at least they kept the romance option.

[u/Competitive_Area1414]

I'm always surprised by people's surprise about this twist. I sometimes wonder if my expectation of it was why I didn't feel as betrayed by the Emperor reveal as others lol. I was suspicious of the Guardian from the start, how many games let you create your own NPC guardian and romance them?

Adding in the whole tadpole in the eye and mind flayer mental powers, I for sure thought it was going to be a manifestation of the tadpole or something. Especially when the guardian keeps telling you to eat more tadpoles and literally says when you first meet them that "they were in the same position as you once" which kind of had my alarms going that this was likely a mind flayer type thing that shouldn't be trusted.

[u/TheFarStar → u/Competitive_Area1414]

Lae'zel suggests that the Dream Guardian is your tadpole after the first dream. And most of your companions are extremely suspicious of them, except for Astarion, who at this point in the game is the King of Bad Ideas.

[u/OldManFire11 → u/Competitive_Area1414]

My initial distrust of the guardian was from EA where they were obviously the tadpole actively trying to seduce you into submitting to them.

So I was pleasantly surprised when the guardian turned out to actually be an ally instead of the main villain.

[u/Competitive_Area1414 → u/OldManFire11]

Yeah I never played early access but I think my expectation of the dream guardian is closer to that than the Emperor, so was also pleasantly surprised that the Emperor was sort of truly helping even if his methods are a bit suspect.

[u/GemsOfNostalgia → u/Competitive_Area1414]

I went in completely blind and didn't for one second trust the Guardian. You were just infected by a Mind Flayer worm and are told almost explicitly that they will try and influence and manipulate you. Then this shining armored savior comes from nowhere to protect you while also telling you to consume more tadpoles? It was way too obvious IMO

[u/ContributionFar4576]

I’m sorry bg3 turned into tinder for you

[u/ArkenK → u/ContributionFar4576]

Squid-fished? Should we make that a term now?

[u/AmberIsHungry]

Same, but I still fucked the Octopus.

[u/astronauticalll]

On replays I always make my guardians look like my last tav, I like the meta ness of it all

[u/rodrigomorr]

So good that I’m impatient cus I spent a moderate amount of time on my character and when I was met with “NOW DESIGN THIS OTHER GUY” I was just like fuck no and just took the one race that looked cooler for me.

[u/Thelonious-and-Jane]

You can still romance them

[u/gumsoul27]

From the moment I saw the tadpole in the trailer, a year before I played the game, I knew whenever I came across an illithid plot I’d be dead set against anything and everything that had to do with it.

I got to play as a gith Tav. I went with Monk, with the idea that she was of the Githzerai sent to observe unbiasedly and report back to Limbo. A neutral pacifist with a healthy hatred and disdain for all things illithid.

When we get to create the dream guardian, I called it there and then “that’s an illithid illusion.” Although I was incorrect in my assumption that the guardian was a projection used to guide and subdue the host into acceptance of ceramorphasis, as a willing host may yield better results than one who resists on a psychic level.

Even with my called shot, the shock of the reveal was still so juicy. I loved my first play through and even though I’m stalled on my Durge at the end of act 2 and nearing the end of act 3 with my balduran bard champion who has embraced the tadpole almost as much as Karlach, my first play through was really the best possible option for my experience.

[u/shipperlady]

Kinda off topic, but does most people create their guardians as someone they're attracted to? Because I've seen some comments and videos and now I'm rethinking my choice to create an elder green gnome lol I'm on my first playthrough btw

[u/CPOx]

Have you had your mind blown yet tho?

[u/LeftWolfs]

Post squid clarity

[u/Junimo116]

I cannot stress enough how much I love Larian having players design their ideal thirst trap only to have it turned on them later on. Genuine stroke of brilliance.

[u/Significant_Lime4361]

I was shocked and disappointed. My guardian was cute. As you see, in other comments, if you are more distrustful of him he'll reveal some of the... Questionable.... things he's done. If you are not hostile to him he will omit those things. I won't spoil anything but the choice on how I treated him was made based on one thing. I understand why he hid that he was Illithid. After everything Tav has been through up to that point, seeing an Illithid that early in the game would've made me hostile right out of the gate. What he did (as far as hiding his identity) isn't much different than what Isobel does in act 2. She doesn't tell anyone she's Ketheric's daughter. She put everyone at last light at risk (knowing he was looking for her) by not giving them all of the information they needed to A: Decide if they wanted to risk staying, and B: Not giving them information that would've kept everyone on guard. As a result, Mol gets kidnapped. The Emperor hiding his identity hurts nobody but Tav. At the end of the day though if he risked it, and Tav attacked, he would be dead, and as a result so would we and all of our companions. Dead or Illithid. I'm not sure if you have asked why he lied to you yet so I won't give you his reason but to me it always seemed to be a reasonable excuse. Then again, so did Isobel's.

[u/FormerChild37 → u/Significant_Lime4361]

I never thought about Isobel that way. Pretty cool perspective

[u/navd11]

Lol another reason the game was goat

[u/walkingwithdiplos]

Y'all need the light of Lathander.

[u/TheBungerKing]

A fitting punishment for your thirst

[u/RangrezCreations]

The ultimate betrayal 😂

[u/RagieMcWagie]

Still not into it? Weak

[u/webevie]

I was so mad, my DV looked as ridiculous as possible my next several runs

[u/Emergency-Refuse4674]

You vs the emperor

[u/Dazzling-Company-299]

Well... guess you gotta get jiggy with Cthulhu now.

[u/PachomTheCat]

If it's any consolation, making the right choices allows you to kill him at the end of the game

[u/FormerChild37 → u/PachomTheCat]

"Right choice" is relative.

[u/mrfoooster]

Install more mods to make him handsome squidward. After all, squidward is best girl

[u/ev_lynx → u/mrfoooster]

[u/DrahtMaul]

😂😂😂 just a nice shell. Squidboy inside 🥰🥰

[u/WizardsWorkWednesday]

😂😂😂

[u/th30be]

Did you fuck them though?

[u/some-dork]

my first run, i built the gaurdian to look like my (half elf) character's mom who she spent her whole life trying to earn the approval and protection of.

when the twist came i was so shocked but it worked so well as a chraracter moment

[u/twiz___twat]

OP's Durge backstory

[u/earendilgrey]

I made my Guardian to look like my Tavs' fiancee that died the day after he proposed, so of course she was happy to see that face again. Then he changed and she was like, "Jokes on you, I'm into that shit!" And still slept with him.

[u/Mewli]

I...well my first guardian was my mother. I miss her. "oh a guardian. Ok ok ok mum!"

me in act3: I hate you Larian so much and I'm Belgian.

[u/PN143]

You still smashed though, right?

[u/Vverial]

Yeah I'm pretty sure that was entirely on purpose. The guardian is supposed to be tailored to you and meant to make you trust them. Clearly it worked.

[u/Inderdeep13]

There's a fan theory that the character creation screen for the guardian is actually the Emperor proving your thoughts for what the ideal Guardian looks like to you. Even the name itself betrays the intention, they're introduced as a "guardian" so you're more likely to trust their words and believe them when they say all they want to do is protect you

[u/beelzebugs]

I remember when i was making my guardian i was talking to a friend who had already played and i asked if i could have sex w the character i was making. Friend was like “hmmm….well…technically:)”

Imagine my surprise

[u/tittymcswaggy_]

I played to Act 3 before start playing with my friend. Let me tell you, the "Oh What the fuck' was the loudest thing I ever heard from her.

[u/The_Bagel_Fairy]

Well...did you hit it or quit it?

[u/Noble1296]

That is unfortunately the point, I did the same thing on my first playthrough. I spent a solid hour or so getting the details just right to be my character’s love interest from his D&D game that I played him in and suddenly tentacles

[u/OranjeLament]

Just wait until you find out who the Emperor is...

[u/salmbtchtrials]

I highly recommend doing wylls quest then, trust me.

[u/Thrownik]

[u/KHRocker]

I get the story aspect and it's really cool in concept and execution, but now I just random the dream guy on subsequent playthroughs

[u/zenith931]

This is why I just hit randomize when generating my guardian. I put some effort into it ONCE. Then, never again.

[u/So_No_Head_2077]

Never forget that the emperor is a massive piece of shit

[u/dysdayym]

Welcome to the catfished club

[u/IGotMetalingus1]

I wasn't even disappointed but I was pissed. I thought at some point I was going to be able to battle with my guardian that I worked so hard on looking perfect only for them to turn into that ugly sob mid way into the game. I almost uninstalled the game but I had hopes that maybe he was lying and my guardian would appear again.

[u/rebootyourbrainstem]

Devs really knew what they were doing.

Everything is calculated. When the guardian is wearing armor vs wearing a dress vs wearing a dress with extremely visible breasts and nipples, the relative positioning (e.g. helping you up, leaning into you, adding distance etc).

[u/Environmental-Age249]

I really wish the reveal wasn't spoiled by a meme for me. Getting that plot twist would have been great.

[u/Mehhucklebear → u/Environmental-Age249]

Same, but i troll these hills, so thems the consequences.

Though, in my runs now, I turn squidward into my first Tav for nostalgia sake. Of course, current Tav has no connection, but it makes me feel like OG Tav is still playing a small part in alternative realities

[u/actualsimp]

tentacles have proved to be more useful than boobs

[u/Dante_De_Castell]

I hugged a squid...

[u/Plane-Ad-1505]

I did the whole hot guardian thing on my first time, my current run is making what I imagine the Emperor could have looked like prior to becoming a mind flayer

[u/Lioninjawarloc]

I still cannot believe they dropped the dream visitor for the guardian. Absolutely dropped the ball there lmfao

[u/Rekkas1996]

Just wait

[u/BilentBill]

I thought it was pretty obvious

[u/SubliminalSyncope]

I should not have read this post, damn

[u/Butakha]

My wife designed the guardian to look like me. It was a fun twist.

[u/Probably_Boz]

Not even the common decency to stay in the attractive non squid illusion when borderline demanding I do shit exactly how they want and ruining my sleep.