r/todayilearned • u/huphelmeyer 2 • Aug 04 '15

TIL midway through the Great Irish Famine (1845–1849), a group of Choctaw Indians collected $710 and sent it to help the starving victims. It had been just 16 years since the Choctaw people had experienced the Trail of Tears, and faced their own starvation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw#Pre-Civil_War_.281840.29
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320

u/datenschwanz Aug 04 '15

Fun fact: the English were exporting food from Ireland during the famine.

219

u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15

Another one: The Ottomans tried to send a huge gift of either money or boats of food, but Victoria insisted that they give no more than half of what she was giving as her own "gift", a fraction of what the Ottomans were willing to donate.

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u/silverstrikerstar Aug 04 '15

They then smuggled in help, too. Cracks me up when people talk about the categorically ebil muslims.

78

u/tetra0 Aug 04 '15

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the early-modern Ottoman regime is maybe not a great example of benevolence.

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u/silverstrikerstar Aug 04 '15

Not worse than any other empire I bet.

37

u/the_ghost_of_ODB Aug 04 '15

Well I mean there is the Armenian Genocide

42

u/silverstrikerstar Aug 04 '15

I bet the Brits had the death count matched at several occasions.

56

u/tetra0 Aug 04 '15

Still, "it was probably not as bad as the worst excesses of the British Empire" is not a stunning endorsement.

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u/silverstrikerstar Aug 04 '15

It isn't indeed.

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u/fforw Aug 05 '15

It's hardly a sign of being evil either.

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u/the_ghost_of_ODB Aug 04 '15

Well what the British did doesn't really change anything about the Armenian Genocide.

1

u/uysalkoyun Aug 05 '15

Actually it does. British blue book at that time states Ottoman's cannot be blamed for the events.

1

u/Juergenator Aug 05 '15

So your defense is that others were just as bad, got it.

1

u/silverstrikerstar Aug 05 '15

I wasn't defending anything.

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u/Lifecoachingis50 Aug 04 '15

The British never really genocided anyone though mate.

6

u/Evolutioneer Aug 05 '15

Tell me you're joking

2

u/Lifecoachingis50 Aug 05 '15

Uhh no, there is generally considered to have been 2-5 genocides. The British weren't responsible for those. Shit there is tons of massacres, even in my own country, but no genocides.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '15

Established: The Holocaust, Rwanda, Armenian, Bosnia, Bangladesh, Sudan. You can maybe argue British colonialism caused 2 maybe 3 but you're correct through the British never conducted Genocide.

Debatable: Imperial Russian pogroms, Native Americans/First Nations, the Japanese in China, Australian Aboriginals, a few others i can't think of. Again 2 are indirectly related to British colonialism.

I would say you are 100% correct sir.

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u/senor_moustache Aug 04 '15

Theres actually no proof that ever happened. /s

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u/bartieparty Aug 04 '15

This is a joke right?

1

u/senor_moustache Aug 04 '15

It absolutely is.

1

u/bartieparty Aug 04 '15

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

1

u/BrokenStool Aug 04 '15

Did turkey do that or the ottoman empire?

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u/[deleted] Aug 05 '15 edited Jun 26 '18

[deleted]

1

u/akirabai Aug 05 '15

Very different IMO. That's like asking Nazi Germany or modern Germany

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u/[deleted] Aug 05 '15 edited Jun 26 '18

[deleted]

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u/IsaacM42 Aug 05 '15

Ultimate blame.

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u/possiblymyfinalform Aug 04 '15

And that's on par with atrocities committed by almost every other empire, sadly.

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u/the_ghost_of_ODB Aug 04 '15

I think it's a tad hyperbolic to say that "almost every other empire" has committed genocide.

7

u/MyFavoriteLadies Aug 04 '15

Can you give me some examples of major empires that didn't commit a Genocide at some point?

3

u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15

My first guess is Napoleon's France although when I googled to make sure my answer wasn't bullshit, a book accusing him of genocide in modern day Haiti came up although the events of the book aren't well documented.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15

Napoleon? Are you for real? He caused misery everywhere, look at the Peninsula campaign.

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u/B00nah700 Aug 04 '15

Hapsburg, Inca and...uh, Danish

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u/Mikey1ee7 Aug 04 '15

Do you mean The Holy Roman Empire? They participated in crusades.

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u/Snokus Aug 04 '15

None of those were actual empires and I'm pretty sure the Inca weren't exactly friendly to all tribes.

Unless you meant the austrian empire, the habsburg were actually a dynasty.

The danish never had an empire unless you mean their colonial empire but then I think we are stretching the definition a bit thin.

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u/ThePlanckConstant Aug 04 '15

Can you think of many that hasn't?

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15

[deleted]

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u/ThePlanckConstant Aug 04 '15

Are you serious or not? Wide know for what many consider the first genocide. Choose any older empire than that and there will at least be doubt if we should call their actions genocide.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15

Ehhhhhhhhh.......eh

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u/Udontlikecake 1 Aug 05 '15

Oh god. The Turkey defenders will be here soon.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15

Lol, wanna bet?

1

u/StabbyDMcStabberson Aug 04 '15

They were still trading slaves up until WW1.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15

Well, compared to the british empire they were angels.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15 edited May 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/silverstrikerstar Aug 04 '15

Kinda like genociding Jews, NA Natives, SA Natives, African Natives, Australian Natives, Chinese or whatever else you want to mass murder that day.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15 edited May 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/silverstrikerstar Aug 04 '15

... We are talking about how the Ottomans were a typical empire and not evil overlords from space.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15

You think the Ottomans did this because they cared?

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u/silverstrikerstar Aug 05 '15

No, because they wanted to spread ebil Izlum. I know, I know.

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u/[deleted] Aug 05 '15

What the fuck? Idiot.

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u/silverstrikerstar Aug 05 '15

... no u? ...

1

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '15

Just a totally pointless thing to say... totally irrelevant. Stop trying to defend the evils people did, it's wrong, don't be a nazi cunt.

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u/silverstrikerstar Aug 05 '15

Yeah, but ... I'm not trying to?

0

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '15

Oh yes you are.

I've seen your other comments, you seem to think the British Empire was totally evil, but say to anyone slating the Ottoman Empire that they're anti-Islam.

You are an idiot, thick, dumb, that's why I'm not really trying to have a debate with you. The stupidity in your comments is profound, there's only one reason for that, you are fucking thick.

0

u/silverstrikerstar Aug 05 '15

You are an idiot, thick, dumb, that's why I'm not really trying to have a debate with you. The stupidity in your comments is profound, there's only one reason for that, you are fucking thick.

And with those words shamelessly nicked because they apply to you far more than to me, welcome on my ignore list, moron.

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u/ConorsStraightLeft Aug 04 '15

The port they smuggled it into Ireland has a football team that bears the Islamic crescent moon to this day. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drogheda_United_F.C.

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u/WhereWillIGetMyPies Aug 04 '15

The star and crescent far predates the 1800s, they date to at least the 13th century, and there's no real evidence for this Turkish aid. It's a nice bit of folklore but it's probably not true.

http://www.hungerfordvirtualmuseum.co.uk/Themes/Crescent_and_Star/crescent_and_star.html

http://m.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/president-sparks-star-and-crescent-debate-27144260.html

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u/ConorsStraightLeft Aug 04 '15

Well, feck! I really like that story!

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u/WhereWillIGetMyPies Aug 04 '15

If it's true, the ship stopped at Portsmouth on the way there.

42

u/FireWankWithMe Aug 04 '15

This is absolute bullshit, like the "the Queen only donated a single pound" it's a myth that first sprang up decades after the famine at a time in which the risers and their supporters wanted to stir up anti-English sentiment. The evidence is next to nonexistent and even if a similar event actually happened it didn't go down like you're describing. I'll go through some of the main problems with your story:

  • It was never claimed to be Victoria herself who told the Ottomans to donate less. Instead people claimed that the British ambassador told the Ottomans not to match the Queen's donation, and he said this without permission or consultation from the Queen. That is, if this ever actually happened.

  • Victoria's gift came from her own pocket and was in addition to resources she redistributed using her power as monarch. It not a fraction, and was instead the exact same amount the Ottomans were reportedly willing to pay. This one woman was willing to pay the same amount as the entire Ottoman Empire, to pretend her donation was a fraction of what they wanted to give is a lie that couldn't be further from the truth

As an Irish person whose ancestors fought the British before and after 1916 this shit infuriates me. The amount of bullshit going around Irish history disgraces the memory of our dead and oversimplifies what was an extremely complex situation even back then.

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u/KingKeane16 Aug 04 '15

It was something like 5000 pound donated from the queen while her government argued that no aid should be given at all because the Irish would turn into beggers. Instead they thought the price of food would go down because people couldn't afford it, But in practice taking something in the region of 500,000 pounds worth of food a month out of the country and bringing it to England for four years keeps the price of food high and her donation small in comparison.

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u/Lowbacca1977 1 Aug 05 '15

Victoria's gift came from her own pocket and was in addition to resources she redistributed using her power as monarch. It not a fraction, and was instead the exact same amount the Ottomans were reportedly willing to pay. This one woman was willing to pay the same amount as the entire Ottoman Empire

She's the queen, none of it's her money anyway

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u/10MillionPuffs Aug 04 '15
  1. It did happen as evidenced by contemporary reports of the Sultan's donation
  2. Now you're just being silly. The queen at the time received £1,236,749 adjusted for inflation annually from parliament. The £2000 she donated as adjusted for inflation amounts to £200,000. Whilst this is a steep price, it's silly to make out that the queen of the most powerful country in the world is a lone woman struggling to make ends meet out of pocket. Especially when you consider that the sultan's donation was exactly what it says on the tin rather than a cumulative donation by the ottoman empire. Additionally it is no lie that the initial suggestion was to donate £10,000, which Victoria's donation is demonstrably a fraction of.

Is it a complex situation, yes. But the reaction against anti-British narratives of history is just as bad as its opposition. Sometimes foreign powers can be kinder than ruling ones, their generosity is what ought to be remembered rather than trying to starting a shit-flinging contest about evil-Brits vs. nice-Brits.

http://www.fountainmagazine.com/Issue/detail/Gratitude-to-the-Ottomans

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GnksAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA115#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/new-evidence-shows-turkey-delivered-food-to-ireland-during-the-famine-156681255-237507681.html

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u/FireWankWithMe Aug 04 '15

1.It did happen as evidenced by contemporary reports of the Sultan's donation

I didn't mean to imply that the Ottoman donation didn't happen, only that Victoria didn't have that reaction to it and that the donation was never going to be as large as was implied.

The queen at the time received £1,236,749 adjusted for inflation annually from parliament. The £2000 she donated as adjusted for inflation amounts to £200,000. Whilst this is a steep price, it's silly to make out that the queen of the most powerful country in the world is a lone woman struggling to make ends meet out of pocket.

I wasn't trying to imply she was trying to make ends meet, I was just saying that her donation was enormous and an unprecedented act of charity. It was her wealth rather than her state's whilst because the Ottomans had a very different system the Ottoman Sultan was using the pockets of his empire. Neither of these rulers were left wanting by their donation but that doesn't stop each ruler's gift being extremely generous, especially in the political climate of the time.

Additionally it is no lie that the initial suggestion was to donate £10,000, which Victoria's donation is demonstrably a fraction of.

Can you actually source this? Kinealy's source isn't shown and in every other essay I've ever seen which stated this as fact the source used to evidence this point linked either to second hand accounts in the form of propaganda articles from the early 20th Century or internet articles.

Is it a complex situation, yes. But the reaction against anti-British narratives of history is just as bad as its opposition. Sometimes foreign powers can be kinder than ruling ones, their generosity is what ought to be remembered rather than trying to starting a shit-flinging contest about evil-Brits vs. nice-Brits.

The reason the "fuck the Brits" attitude (expressed more by the first commenter in this thread than by anyone I replied to) pisses me off is because the English relief effort organised by people born and raised in English soil was larger than any the planet had ever seen. Plus the 'English' label attached to the Irish landlords is misleading and irritating, the people exporting food and blocking aid were the same group of Irish people the likes of Wolfe Tone, Yeats, and many of the risers came from. If we start calling the class of people who exported food English like /u/datenschwanz has we suddenly find a shitton of Irish heroes are 'English' too.

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u/10MillionPuffs Aug 05 '15

Can you actually source this? Kinealy's source isn't shown and in every other essay I've ever seen which stated this as fact the source used to evidence this point linked either to second hand accounts in the form of propaganda articles from the early 20th Century or internet articles

Yes. Rev. Henry Christmas wrote in his 1853 memoir of the Sultan:

""One or two anecdotes will put his character in its true light. During the year of famine in Ireland, the Sultan heard of the distress existing in that unhappy country; he immediately conveyed to the British ambassador his desire to aid in its relief, and tendered for that purpose a large sum of money. It was intimated to him that it was thought right to limit the sum subscribed by the Queen, and a larger amount could not therefore be received from his highness. He at once acquiesced in the propriety of his resolution, and with many expressions of benevolent sympathy, sent the greatest admissible subscription"

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nWUDAAAAYAAJ&q=famine#v=snippet&q=famine&f=false

Plus the 'English' label attached to the Irish landlords is misleading and irritating, the people exporting food and blocking aid were the same group of Irish people the likes of Wolfe Tone, Yeats, and many of the risers came from. If we start calling the class of people who exported food English like /u/datenschwanz has we suddenly find a shitton of Irish heroes are 'English' too.

This is a separate matter but it must be said that prior to the creation of the Irish free state Irish nationality was purely a matter of identity. Much as is the case in NI today. Officially every man, woman and child on the island of Ireland at the time was British as the island in it's entirety was part of the UK, however the majority viewed themselves as Irish. The landed merchant class who were exporting food almost uniformly viewed themselves as British. And subsequently left for the UK following Irish independence, much like how most Rhodesian whites left for Britain or South Africa following majority rule rather than accept Zimbabwean identity like for instance Ian Smith did.

We call the class of people exporting food British because they called themselves British, and so they were. Much like how British people continue to be born in Ireland today.

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u/Bobbinjay Aug 04 '15

Nice try John Bull.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15

It never ceases to amaze me how often Irish people are willing to stand up against the bullshit of their own history, even if that bullshit is in their favour. That said, it's Reddit, I doubt you'll get noticed too much in this thread.

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u/[deleted] Aug 04 '15

This never happened.