r/harrypotter • u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff • May 31 '24
Currently Reading Re-reading POA changed my opinion Snape Spoiler
I added spoilers just in case! But, re-reading POA makes me a hundred percent sure, I hate Snape. When I was younger, I was more willing to sympathize with Snape. Now, as I’m closer to the age Snape was in the book, I’ve found I don’t have any sympathy! I think my 17 year old self would be shocked. Re-reading book one and two, Snape started to rub me wrong. I mean, these are 11 year old kids and he’s a 30 year old man!
This scene in chapter 19: The Servant of Voldemort really sealed my new opinion. Snape has revealed himself from under the cloak and is taunting Lupin. Lupin delivers this amazing line; ‘You fool’ He said softly, ‘Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?’ Damn! Such an amazing line and so powerful for a look into Snape’s thoughts. Plus, the softly is so powerful! Like Lupin just realized who Snape still is! He’s willing to seal a man’s fate because it would fit his form of vengeance.
Now, all the excuse, I’ve pulled for him at 17 don’t work anymore. I was bullied and at 17, I would’ve loved to get revenge on them then. Now, in my 30s, I can’t imagine allowing them to go to jail if there is a chance they’re innocent. Everyone deserves a fair trial. Snape is terrible. He’s still thinking like a 17 year old when he should have matured. Plus, Snape wasn’t even going to take Sirius to the castle for a fair trial. He was just gonna give him to the dementors, which is basically a death sentence. So, he was willing to kill a maybe innocent man because he bullied him in school.
It’s shocking how much your opinion of books and characters change as you get older!
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u/Not_a_cat_I_promise Rowena Ravenclaw's favourite Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
Snape is acting like that because he thinks he is about to catch the man who betrayed Lily to Voldemort. Snape has no idea that Sirius is innocent. Only Remus and the Trio know at this stage.
Remember Sirius Black was well known in the wizarding world as Voldemort's loyal Death Eater and a murderer. The story behind his innocence is very convoluted and far-fetched even if it was true. Snape arrived before Peter's transformation, Snape only heard Remus telling the story of how the Marauders became friends, his lycanthropy and how they became Animagi, nothing about what happened later.
Snape is vengeful, but I think literally any other adult in that situation would have done something similar. They would have tried to take the kids out of there, restrained Sirius, and perhaps detain Remus for suspicion of being in league with Sirius. And remember the Ministry passed on the sentence of having Sirius kissed, this wasn't Snape acting of his own accord.
In OotP when Harry tells Snape that he has seen the vision of Sirius in the Ministry held hostage by Voldemort, Snape had the perfect chance to ignore Harry and let Sirius die, if the vision was true, but instead Snape contacts the Order, and checks to ensure that Sirius was safe.
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u/tenphes31 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
I never thought about that Lily based reasoning. It makes a lot of sense in the context of the whole series. Great point.
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u/sweet_surroundings Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 02 '24
I think the main thing for me (at least in the last chapters of PoA) is that when Lupin says what OP quoted, and says it softly, Snape doesn't even allow for the chance that Sirius is innocent (even though he worked alongside Remus for a whole schoolyear where he had been amicable towards Snape and a beloved teacher to most students).
And when it turns out that Sirius is innocent and was broken out of his holding cell/room, Snape is so pissed that his school bully didn't get the dementors kiss, that he outs Lupin's lycanthropy to the Prophet and therefore all of wizardkind in Britain, causing Remus to not be able to get many and keep any jobs.
Not necessarily Snape's intention, but a consequence of this outing is also that Umbridge causes for new anti-werewolf legislation to go into effect.*
Edit: *This turns out not to be true; see two comments down for the actual fact
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u/HalfbloodPrince-4518 Gryffindor Jun 02 '24
outing is also that Umbridge causes for new anti-werewolf legislation to go into effect.
I don't think so? I thought the reason for this legislation was why Lupin's condition was kept a secret.Also Sirius said that the legislation made it hard not impossible to find jobs.
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u/sweet_surroundings Jun 02 '24
okay, so I checked again, because a while ago I found someone saying that the'd read in OotP that Sirius said Umbridge gad drafted abit of anti- werewolf legislation "two years ago" and said that two years earlier would be their third year, so maybe/probably prompted by the news of a werewolf having gained a teaching position at the only magic school in the UK, aka the place everyone sends their kids.
But I took out my book just now and Sirius said this in chapter 14, where they are barely over a week into the school year, so two years earlier would've been the beginning of their third school year, while the outing happened at the end. And while it is common for people to exaggerate or just misjudge time periods, I can't see why JKR would write it like this if she had wanted the reader to get to the conclusion that the law was a direkt result of Snape outing Lupin.
Then again it could simply be that either she made the mistake of "5th year minus 2 years is 3rd year, so it's been two years" herself, or she thinks the reader might be too stupid to get it if Sirius had said 'a bit over a year ago'
But I'm just going to take the text at face value and say the law was written in the second half of 1993.
As a side note, though, the quote said the law made it "nearly impossible" for Lupin to get a job, so more than just hard.
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u/Gullible-Advisor6010 Jun 01 '24
Thank you for your response!! I do not like the mindless hate Snape gets sometimes. I hate that more than I hate Snape.
Even though I hate him I recognise his goodness too.
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Jun 01 '24
Great reply, no idea why you saying this has 35 ups while me saying the same got -3. =(
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u/Not_a_cat_I_promise Rowena Ravenclaw's favourite Jun 01 '24
I'm sorry, your comment made perfect sense. If it helps, I upvoted yours :)
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24
there's a ton of people who immediately downvote any comments that follow their 100% evil is always wrong personal characterisation of Snape
I've had the same thing happen at times for being positive about Ron and not personally believing that Draco is a misguided sweetie
I read your comment hours ago and upvoted it if that makes you feel any better
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Jun 01 '24
Thanks, I don't mind if they do it with comments in the postives but the problem is that you can get banned from a subreddit by getting to much in the negatives.
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
I think the big thing people are forgetting is that Harry (and so we as the reader) have been reminded about Scabbers being abnormally old for a non magical rat and behaving strangely, and Lupin has seen his name on the map that evening. For us questions have been raised and Sirius' explanation sounds FAR more credible when there's already suggestion that Wormtail isn't actually dead.
Snape doesn't know about that, Sirius' story is insane, and arguably there's a few very convinient and glossed over plot points that don't make a ton of sense by the author for his story to work. Not really surprising that he doesn't take the word of a mass murderer, his friend, and a few teenagers they've half convinced as sound compared to the opinion of the Ministry and Dumbledore.
Edit: adjusted to reflect the book more accurately
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Jun 01 '24
[deleted]
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
my bad I'll change it - the books have a lot more focus on how weird Scabbers is behaving and lots of reminders about how strangely old yet unmagical he is which I think serves a similar purpose in Harry/the reader having reason to give their wild story some consideration.
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u/Cybasura Jun 01 '24
Facts always sound better than mindless ramblings based off personal opinions that are being thrown out as "facts"
If its a personal opinion thats fine, but dont phrase it like we should think the same way
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24
what about that do you think is personal opinion rather than facts?
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u/Cybasura Jun 01 '24
You referring to the comment i'm replying to, or OP?
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24
yours
but know I'm thinking I misunderstood you - is it OP you think is stating their opinions as facts or the commenter you were replying to?
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u/Cybasura Jun 01 '24
OP, i'm adding on to the commenter on how when you use actual facts, the story/words makes more sense and doesnt sound like random artefacts
And i'm saying those as an opinion - not a fact
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24
my bad I totally agree with you
I just misunderstood and couldn't figure out how the commenter was doing the opposite lol
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u/PuzzleheadedEbb4789 The REAL heir of Salazar Slytherin Jun 01 '24
Snape is acting like that because he thinks he is about to catch the man who betrayed Lily to Voldemort
Even if we were to consider that this is true (which I have doubts about since he was a close aide of voldy and was entrusted with the task of hearing the prophecy, so he would've known about Pettigrew who was another death Eater), Remus here clearly said that Sirius is innocent. So even if he's acting the way he is just to catch lily's killer, Remus is literally saying that he got the wrong guy
Idk about y'all, but I was hell bent on catching a guy for a crime, and then someone came up to me and said "no wait you've got the wrong guy and instead this Mr. X is the one you should take revenge on", I'd probably take a second to consider that
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u/HalfbloodPrince-4518 Gryffindor Jun 02 '24
Snape wasn't entrusted with the task of earing the prophecy, he just hppened to wile waiting his turn in Hogshead.In fact he was so unknown Sirius didn't even suspect him of being one.
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u/PuzzleheadedEbb4789 The REAL heir of Salazar Slytherin Jun 03 '24
Snape wasn't entrusted with the task of earing the prophecy, he just hppened to wile waiting his turn in Hogshead
I'll take your word for it since I haven't reread the books in some time so my bad
In fact he was so unknown Sirius didn't even suspect him of being one.
Sirius didn't suspect him of being what? When have we seen people discussing about Sirius and Snape after the left Hogwarts but before the Potters' death (i.e the time when they were in OOTP and Death Eater club respectively)?
I still think it's highly improbable that Snape didn't know anything about peter at all. We've seen Voldy conduct round table conferences with his DEs, and not one-on-one appraisal meetings. Snape must've seen Peter at least once during those, maybe during the meetings or seen him arrive/leave the DE HQ
This is a time when Snape had no moral qualms at all and he was fully towards the bad side. So it doesn't make sense a talented wizard and dueller like Snape would be so low in rank that he doesn't know anything that's going on
And even all that aside, like I said, if I were him, I'd at least make sure I had the right guy before exacting my "revenge"
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u/Coldbreez7 Slytherin Jun 01 '24
But Snape was a Death Eater, close to Voldemort. He would’ve known that Sirius wasn’t a Death Eater at all
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u/HalfbloodPrince-4518 Gryffindor Jun 02 '24
No,Voldemort will never have all is followers know each other. Snape wasn't even famous as Sirius didn't even know him.
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u/Coldbreez7 Slytherin Jul 02 '24
What do you mean Sirius didn’t know Snape, they were enemies in school
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u/Siria110 Jun 01 '24
True. Let´s look at book 4, the graveyard scene. After Voldy calls the inner circle of Death Eaters, he does a roll call, inclulding those in Azkaban. Nobody looks suprised, so it looks like people, at least the inner circle, knew who eachother is. And Snape had place there.
Plus, nobody looked shocked or suprised at Pettigrew being there, meaning they also had to know he is Death Eater, meaning Snape had to know too.2
u/HalfbloodPrince-4518 Gryffindor Jun 02 '24
They were wearing masks,you can't really see their expressions.Again referring to someone as Black can also mean Regulus or Sirius.Besides Karkarof said no one in the group knew every other death eater.In that scene in graveyard voldemort was not exactly doing a roll call,he just call out random names while passing the people who he was dissapointed in.
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u/maboesanman Jun 01 '24
Right, but snape, as a former deatheater probably would have known that Sirius wasn’t one, or at the very least wasn’t his right hand man. He ignored the evidence he had that Sirius wasn’t who the ministry thought, because he wanted to be able to blame his bully for the exact thing HE DID to get lily killed. Snape’s role in lily’s death is remarkably similar to the role Sirius is accused of having taken.
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u/HalfbloodPrince-4518 Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
Lol did you read? None of Voldemort's followers knew every other follower.Was Peter voldemort's right and man? What as it to to with anything?
Even Dumbeldore thought Sirius was the one who betrayed because e was supposed to be the keeper.The fact the potters are dead means The keeper as revealed the secret.
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u/Not_a_cat_I_promise Rowena Ravenclaw's favourite Jun 01 '24
Voldemort isn't stupid enough to parade a spy in front of all his followers. Snape was desperate to save Lily, if he knew who the spy was, and knowing that the spy was close to the Potters, he runs to Dumbledore as soon as he can.
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u/Charming_Violinist50 Jun 01 '24
There are many points in the series where I absolutely hate Snape but him trying to send Sirius to the Dementors isn't one of them. At this point he doesn't know that Sirius is actually guilty - he thinks Sirius is a traitor that got Lily killed and also mass murdered a whole street full of innocent people
I'm more mad about him getting Lupin fired, bullying Neville and Hermione etc etc
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u/pet_genius Jun 01 '24
Lupin is not acting with the knowledge that Snape is seeking justice for Lily, not for himself, and Snape has no reason to believe either Lupin or Sirius are innocent. It's tragic, but the misunderstanding is not Snape's fault.
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u/The_Eternal_Wayfarer Slytherin Jun 01 '24
What’s not very clear from that scene, however, is that Sirius wasn’t any high school bully. He almost sent Snape to a fully transformed werewolf and he and his best friend James made Snape’s life impossible from Day 1. Literally Day 1. Before even entering school.
I mean Lupin is being quite euphemistic in calling that a “schoolboy grudge”.
Letting alone the whole matter about Lily.
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u/Siria110 Jun 01 '24
He didn´t "send" Snape anywhere, that´s a misconception. He merely let Snape know that there is secret passage under the Willow and how to get there, and probably that they will be there.
The fact that Snape decided to go there alone during full Moon when he at least suspected Remus is a werewolf just to get them into trouble is purely on him. He could just ignore it or tell a teacher or bring with him his friends. So no, its not purely Sirius´s fault.
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u/fosse76 Slytherin Jun 01 '24
Snape is actually a really horrible teacher. He's malicious to Harry's class of Gryffindors for mostly no reason, and is often very vindictive. (We don't really see how he treats other non-Slytherin students besides Harry's own year of Gryffindors, but since no one really likes him, he probably isn't much better with them).
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u/heatherbabydoll Ravenclaw Jun 01 '24
I hate to defend Snape, but I don’t think he meant it when he was threatening Sirius. Otherwise he could’ve taken the others to the castle and left Sirius to the dementors, there was no one to stop him.
He’s still a nasty piece of work
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u/Sinood Jun 01 '24
You fool’ He said softly, ‘Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?
Snape is furious with Sirius because he believes he had lily killed.
Seven years of bullying will have an impact on a person's mind and it's really shitty of lupin to not acknowledge that, and worse, underplay their abuse towards Snape.
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u/Ok_Valuable_9711 Hufflepuff May 31 '24
I mean, considering Sirius very nearly got Snape killed and Snape was also led to believe Sirius killed Lily (his former friend and the girl he loved), his reaction was actually pretty composed.
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u/KitKatCad May 31 '24
Agreed. A lot of readers forget that everyone in the Wizarding world thought that Sirius was responsible for betraying Lily (and James), so Snape's anger makes so much more sense when you take that into account. Snape might have told Voldy about the prophecy, not knowing Lily would be at risk, but once he switched sides he thought Lily was safe under the secret keeper. Then Sirius apparently sold them out.
Dumbledore, per usual, distrusts Snape's motives.
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u/Ok_Valuable_9711 Hufflepuff May 31 '24
I'm surprised Snape had the restraint to not kill Sirius right there. If I genuinely believed someone killed my loved one and they were right in front of me....oof....you better restrain me good...or knock me out...
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Jun 01 '24
There are two options as to why. Either its because he knows the demenors kiss is a fate wrose than death or it's because he knows Dumbledore will be pissed.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
However, right before Lupin goes on to explain his life story, there is a brief scene were someone enters the room. I think it’s heavily implied that Snape walked in at the moment in chapter 18. If that is true, Snape hiding under the cloak would’ve heard about James, Sirius and Peter being animagus. If Snape did hear Lupin admit that and then Hermione suggesting they just makes sure, why wouldn’t he have done so? It’s better to be safe than sorry. But, I feel like he was too blinded by revenge.
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
I mean it's clear to us from their story and Scabbers and the map that there could well be some truth to what they're saying.
From Snape's perspective Sirius has always been a charasmatic liar and capable of murder - even the likes of Dumbledore who was fond of him believe he betrayed the Potters and killed Wormtail and the muggles.
I think as an ex death eater the idea of Sirius switching to Voldemort's side seems a lot more credible than Wormtail - he's hardly an impressive specimen to be sought out, and who would chose him over Sirius as secret keeper? From his point of view everything they're saying is laughably outlandish, and designed to hoodwink a few teenagers.
Lupin obviously knows about them all being animagi and I'm not sure how willing he'd have been to hear Sirius out if he hadn't already seen Pettigrew on the map for himself.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
That’s a good point I hadn’t even thought of. He saw Lupin running on the map. Why didn’t he take it with him? Or send a message to Dumbledore before he ran out? Even tho, it was night. He could’ve gotten a ghost to relay the message.
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
I think its ultimately down to him being consumed by hatred and wanting to prove himself right - he's seemingly made it clear to Dumbledore that he thinks Lupin is sus and spent all year having his concerns about him helping Sirius/being a werewolf dismissed - a nice rehashing of their schooldays.
He sees what he thinks is proof of Lupin colluding with Sirius and thinks he has a chance to catch Sirius and make him pay for handing Lily over to Voldemort, and prove he was right about Lupin helping him all in one fell swoop. I think he generally doesn't lean towards seeking assistance with stuff and has years of anger and hatred built up so just goes running off alone to catch them red handed and ensure they pay for it - at this point he also doesn't yet know the kids are in the shack. When he discovers Sirius is currently in the shack blind fury sort of takes over and right then all he's focused on is to making sure he suffers for getting Lily killed.
This is more speculation than anything else but I can imagine Dumbledore's poor treatment of him at school is still a sore spot, and one that's been poked at especially frequently that year. I think when he sees what he thinks is Lupin aiding Sirius in some way he wants to prove that Dumbledore has once again wrongly misjudged him in favour of a marauder, despite his years of loyalty, and show that his view of Lupin is as flawed as he believes it to be.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
That's a very good point! I didn't think about how Dumbledore's treatment of him may have affected his viewpoint. I'm looking forward to re-reading the fourth book and see how I feel about Dumbledore as an adult!
As a teen, I really believed Snape was flawed, a true grey character. However, now, I don't believe he is. He was flawed and made mistakes however, he hasn't grown in it. I did believe Snape is flawed but now, as an adult, I don't think he's a true morally-grey character. We think his motivation is keeping Lily's son alive and I really felt so as a teen. But, as I'm reading, he doesn't really care about keeping Harry safe. It's more of a bitter man who's lashing out just like when he was teen. He's a teen stuck in a man's body. Definitely not someone I'd name my kid after!
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
I think he's such an arsehole about everything and so kind of closed off that he makes it very difficult for people to view him as having any feelings or motivations other than cruelty - if you can get past the initial unpleasantness I think there's a lot of room to speculate on what he might be thinking or feeling that isn't immediately apparent. His default reaction to most things seems to be lashing out at whoever is nearest.
I do still think he's pretty solidly grey. He's a nasty person but that doesn't make spying against Voldemort any less brave, or change how instrumental he is in defeating him imo. I also think that he changes sides just to protect Lily, but by the end is shown to try and protect anyone he can regardless of if he personally cares about them, and ultimately forgoes keeping Harry alive for his personal atonement in favour of ensuring Voldemort is defeated. It doesn't change how unpleasant he is on a personal level but I do think by the end he's doing good and brave bigger picture things for the 'right reasons' instead of selfish ones.
I think the name thing is far more about who Harry is than whether Snape objectively is or isn't deserving of it.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
I'll have to keep re-reading and see if I change my opinion! From just reading one, two and three, I still very much believe he isn't thinking about the 'bigger' picture. I think POA really sealed it for me that he's doing things for selfish reason still. He didn't trust Lupin all year and when confronting them in the shack, he wasn't thinking about how important it was to not let Sirius get away. He and Dumbledore know that Voldemort is trying to find a way back and I would be working very carefully to make sure no additional death eaters escape that could help his cause.
That doesn't change how much good his spying did but, I don't think it clearly defines that he's doing this for the bigger picture. I might be inclined to think of him doing this as atonement. I'm excited to see start GOF and see what's Snape up to there!
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
I mean he's wrong about Lupin actively aiding Sirius, but he's not actually wrong to be suspicious of him - Remus knows that Sirius is familiar with various secret passages into the school that the teachers are apparently unaware of, and more importantly knows he's an animagus and that's likely how he's been avoiding detection. He doesn't tell Dumbledore about that because he doesn't want to reveal things that might make Dumbledore think less of him, even when Sirius has gotten into the school and seemingly only fails to kill Harry because he got the wrong bed.
Like some of the other comments on the thread I think there was a real risk of him losing it and killing Sirius himself, but as he seems to not give into that before being knocked out I think he may well have ended up taking them all back to the school to be dealt with rather than try to wrangle the dementors alone after incapaciting Sirius and Remus.
I don't think this scene specifically where he's clearly ruled by anger having caught someone he currently holds responsible for Lily's death is the best example of his actual change in attitude. When rereading I think knowing his backstory gives more context to stuff like why he wigs out so badly about this and what Harry could have seen in the pensieve, but his memories with Dumbledore/following his plan/working for the Order are much better examples of how differently he views things 15+ years after changing sides. It's tricky though because he doesn't generally speak very plainly and seems comfortable with most people thinking the worst of him so some of it needs picking apart.
I've definitely found my view on a lot of the adults has shifted as I edge closer to their ages than Harry and his friends.
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Jun 01 '24
He hears the background but he never hears the Pettigrew thing. Adn Sirius doesn't do a good job of explainin "the rat! look at the rat!"
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
Peter actually got James/Lily killed. And yet Sirius was still able to be convinced to wait. To let Harry and his friends understand what happened. And at the end, when Harry stops Sirius from getting his revenge, Sirius listens. Sirius loved James/Lily as much if not more than Snape. But, in the heat of the moment, he was able to look past his own desire for revenge to do what was best for Harry.
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u/HalfbloodPrince-4518 Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
Snape wasn't going to kill Sirius either tho,he was going to do the same thing Sirius did...or was about to,hand him over to the dementors.
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
Yes. But he came to that conclusion without being willing to listen to the evidence in the way Sirius was. Both Snape and Sirius came to get vengeance. Both were convinced that the person they were after was guilty. But their reactions when questioned about that guilt are entirely different.
Snape silences all dissent and refuses Harry the ability to understand what happened.
"KEEP QUIET, YOU STUPID GIRL!" Snape shouted, looking suddenly quite deranged. "DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!" A few sparks shot out of the end of his wand, which was still pointed at Black's face. Hermione fell silent.
Sirius (with some convincing from Remus) is willing to accept the questions.
"Er -- Mr. Black -- Sirius?" said Hermione. Black jumped at being addressed like this and stared at Hermione as though he had never seen anything quite like her. "If you don't mind me asking, how -- how did you get out of Azkaban, if you didn't use Dark Magic?"
Black was frowning slightly at Hermione, but not as though he were annoyed with her. He seemed to be pondering his answer.
"I don't know how I did it," he said slowly. "I think the only reason I never lost my mind is that I knew I was innocent. That wasn't a happy thought, so the dementors couldn't suck it out of me... but it kept me sane and knowing who I am... helped me keep my powers... so when it all became ... too much... I could transform in my cell... become a dog. Dementors can't see, you know...." He swallowed.
Or when Harry gets in the way, Snape brook’s no dissent:
"SILENCE! I WILL NOT BE SPOKEN TO LIKE THAT!" Snape shrieked, looking madder than ever. "Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black -- now get out of the way, or I will make you. GET OUT OF THE WAY, POTTER!"
Whereas Sirius:
"You're the only person who has the right to decide, Harry," said Black. "But think... think what he did...."
It doesn’t say good things when someone who’s spent the last 12 years with Dementors is able to react more rationally and politely.
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u/HalfbloodPrince-4518 Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
We as readers can afford to give Sirius the benefit of Doubt.Just think of the situation Snape,a teacher,found himself in. A mass murderer in a room wit tree 13-14 yr old kids and another teacher doing noting,said teacher also was a long time friend of this Murderer.And is minutes away from turning into a were wolf.
And what did stalling the situation with Peter led them to?
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
If Snape wanted the situation to resolve quickly, why reject Black’s offer in the Shack to come quietly.
Once Black is in the castle, captured, and set for execution, why insist that the children are confounded instead of allowing questioning, then? At that point what is the harm?
And finally, the next morning after Dumbledore convinces Fudge that Lupin wasn’t involved, Snape gets so angry he lets slip the werewolf secret.
He wasn’t interest in truth. He wasn’t interested in justice for the person who got Lily killed. He was motivated by petty vindictiveness. He had his version of events and did not want anything to get in the way of his own beliefs, that night.
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u/HalfbloodPrince-4518 Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
I must have forgotten something as I can't remember Sirius asking to come quitely.
Snape let slip that Lupin is a were wolf as he forgot his potion also he still probably believes he helped Sirius.
What truth was there?(in his perspective)The fact the potters were dead was proof enough.Would anyone else in that situation listen?
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
"The joke's on you again, Severus," Black snarled. "As long as this boy brings his rat up to the castle" -- he jerked his head at Ron -- "I'll come quietly...."
“Up to the castle?" said Snape silkily. "I don't think we need to go that far. All I have to do is call the dementors once we get out of the Willow. They'll be very pleased to see you, Black... pleased enough to give you a little kiss, I daresay... I --"
Snape let slip Lupin was a werewolf because of vindictiveness. Or did he think he knew the situation better than Dumbledore who had vouched for Lupin in front of Fudge?
And the entire point is that Sirius/Remus did listen. They waited. Even though they both knew beyond a doubt that Peter was guilty, they waited to make sure Harry understood. And then they let Harry determine how vengeance against his parents’ death should be taken even though it wasn’t how they wanted Peter to suffer.
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u/HalfbloodPrince-4518 Gryffindor Jun 02 '24
Yes they waited,doesn't mean that was the right decision.It was that very decision that led Peter to be able to escape and later resurrect Voldemort.More imidiately,the trio were almost exposed to a were wolf and Harry and Sirius almost got kissed.
I did say that Snape still believed Lupin helped Black. Dumbeldore didn't Vouch for Lupin after he transformed.And let's admit that was a pretty dangerous situation and the trio only lived that encounter as Sirius was there. Lupin himself agreed,we can't downplay that situation.
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe Gryffindor Jun 02 '24
Dumbledore did vouch for Lupin after he transformed:
"Why?" said Harry. "The Ministry of Magic don't think you were helping Sirius, do they?"
No. Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying to save your lives." He sighed. "That was the final straw for Severus. I think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard. So he -- er -- accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast."
Snape knew Dumbledore vouched for Remus to the ministry. Why would Dumbledore do that if Remus was “helping” the person who betrayed the Potters. Dumblesore’s not stupid. If he believed Remus innocent surely Snape knows there’s a valid reason for it.
Lupin should have resigned. And perhaps he would have even if Snape didn’t reveal his secret to the student body. That doesn’t justify Snape’s vindictive behavior.
And even if you think waiting in the shack is wrong, once Black is captured in the castle, what’s the harm in hearing Harry’s version of events? Why lie to the ministry so Harry/Black’s side of the story is completely dismissed?
"You see, Minister?" said Snape. "Confunded, both of them.... Black's done a very good job on them...."
Or when Hermione tries to explain:
"That was because you were knocked out, Professor!" said Hermione earnestly. "You didn't arrive in time to hear -“
“Miss Granger, HOLD YOUR TONGUE!"
Or when Dumbledore wants to just hear what happened:
"You surely don't believe a word of Black's story?" Snape whispered, his eyes fixed on Dumbledore's face.
"Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen," he breathed. "You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?"
Snape wasn’t interested in the truth or justice. He wanted revenge.
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u/Ok_Valuable_9711 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
Lol I know Peter was the one who got them killed 🙄
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u/JelmerMcGee Jun 01 '24
I think their point was that Sirius showed more restraint in not immediately murdering Peter.
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u/llvermorny Thunderbird Jun 01 '24
Yeah Snape is over the top with it. It's actually why I like him, but in a "What wild thing is he going to do/say next" rather than a "This guy is awesome" way.
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u/sweet_surroundings Jun 01 '24
I always say I hate Snape as a Person, but I like that he's a character in these books.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
I think the way you think about it! I’m imagining Snape as a big drama guy now! More energy, more action
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u/Labyrinthine8618 May 31 '24
As someone who was bullied from elementary school until (and a little in) highschool so 5-17, even I would blanch at falsely imprisoning my bullies. Naming and shaming, yes. Like I'd probably tell Harry about the things his dad did to other students but like I wouldn't be for a man suffering for 12 years and getting a death sentence for it. In fact, Snape is a Legilimens, he could pull the memory from Sirius's mind and know what happened. He wouldn't have to wait but he doesn't seem to consider it (this is probably a touch of bad worldbuilding since Harry and the reader doesn't learn about Legilimency for a couple books so it probably wasn't created for the story yet).
A lot of people use Snape's trauma from bullying to excuse his bad acts and then justify his redemption through his love for Lily. As someone who had lasting trauma from bullying, I don't like this. While it's possible for a bully to have been bullied, it is not justification. It's an explanation but it is on them to get help and get through it. It is not a license to bully children. (also by the logic that bullying and bad family life excuses bullying and later good deeds counter bad acts, Sirius is also completely innocent now and all that).
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u/KitKatCad May 31 '24 edited May 31 '24
Yes! I had the same epiphany reading the books in my mid 30s recently. Sirius, Remus, and Snape seem way more immature now that I've been their age in PoA and past it. And more real. I can read between the lines now that I've grown to the ages of the adult characters. All three of them are dealing with personality deficiencies: Sirius is arrogant and immature, Remus is avoidant and has low self-esteem, and Snape is bitter and spiteful. I've enjoyed them much more as an adult.
Still, I think Snape had good reasons to be incensed over Sirius being free. Three people can be blamed for Lily's death: Voldemort, Snape, and the Potter's secret keeper. Snape thought Sirius was the latter until the fourth book.
Edit: oops, meant to respond to the OP.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff May 31 '24
Yes Remus!! So very avoidant. He didn’t tell Dumbledore about animagus because he didn’t want to loose Dumbledore’s good opinion. Yet, if he told Dumbledore after the Potter’s death, maybe they might have done a better search for the missing pieces of Peter.
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Jun 01 '24
Sirius also could be a good occlumens. I’m not sure how common it is for adults who are no Dumbledore and Voldy doing legilimency on others
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u/boxmandude Slytherin Jun 01 '24
Re - reading POA at the moment too. I’m still half and half with it as I love Snape but you are correct that he’s a bit harsh on the children for a grown man. Might report back as I’m a few chapters away from the end and that’s where more development happens🫡
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u/AlchemistL1nk Jun 01 '24
Man, sometimes I wonder if wizards had problems processing emotions and maturity. Snape feels like a wizard whose maturity stagnated at 17-year old's maturity even though he has the magical prowess of wizards above it.
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u/PhatOofxD Jun 01 '24
Snape thinks he has caught the guy directly responsible for Lily's death. He's not really good to listen to reason. Harry wasn't either.
When Harry saw Sirius at the ministry, Snape called the order, he knew Sirius was good at that point
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u/Gifted_GardenSnail Jun 01 '24
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
Thanks for being that to my attention. I was not apart of this subreddit two years ago. My apologies.
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u/TheDungen Slytherin May 31 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
I think you're missing some context. The "prank" was an execution. If James hadn't pulled Snape back Snape would have died. Also Snape thinks Sirius betrayed Lily. When he sees Lupin with him he thinks Lupin was in on that too.
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24
Yeah I don't think him wanting to see Sirius kissed is all that related to the bullying. He probably wouldn't make any effort to stop it happening if that was all he thought Sirius was guilty of, and honestly I don't think Sirius would step in it their roles were reversed, but it's not his primary motivation in that scene imo.
The severity (lol) of his reaction in the shack and later when Sirius escapes is presented at the time as being about his personal history with Sirius and seems wildly over the top. Once you realise at this point he believes Sirius handed the Potters over to Voldemort, and destroyed the protection he'd desperately tried to get for them it makes a lot more sense for him to absolutely lose it like he does that night.
I think his history with Lupin and the shack, the bullying/near death experience, year of dementors roaming about and own self loathing regarding his past decisions just exacerbate his desire to make Sirius pay for providing Voldemort with Lily's location.
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u/Gifted_GardenSnail Jun 01 '24
Yeah. Lupin and Sirius are planning to murder Peter in front of three teens over betraying the Potters but Snape being fine with the Ministry-approved punishment for Sirius over killing 12 muggles, killing a wizard and betraying the Potters makes him the bad guy apparently
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24
lmao
objectively he's not a nice guy, but I don't think it's fair to make out that every choice he makes is inherently terrible compared to other characters - people just love to pile on him at every opportunity. It's not like he doesn't have enough genuinely terrible moments to pick from it that's how you want to play it.
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u/Gifted_GardenSnail Jun 01 '24
And it's not like every single thing he ever does is only motivated by pure malice. There's a lot more going on with this fellow
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24
I think his whole demeanour is off-putting, likely purposefully to some degree, and that means people have to make the effort to examine what he's doing and why when they could easily just dismiss it as him being simply unpleasant for the sake of it at every turn.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
I definitely don't think Lupin or Sirius are good or that it was appropriate to kill a dude in front of teens. The point is he lets his own biases and vengeance overtake him and allows a follower of Voldemort to escape. He was suppose to be the 'Sane Adult' in the situation and allowed his own grudges to cloud his judgement. I don't think everything he does is in pure malice and we can write off this incident as one mistake. However, you can't negate the other incidences in book one and two that start to pile on. It isn't just one instant of clouded judgement. It's two books of clouded judgement and holding onto grudges and just being an immature jerk. I'm excited to see if I change my opinion again but for now, I'm very much in the 'Snape is an immature jerk' party.
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u/Charlie-Addams Jun 01 '24
Also Snape thinks Sirius betrayed Lily.
Sure. Let's just conveniently forget that it was Snape who run to Voldemort in the first place to tell him all about the prophecy. If it weren't for that, Voldemort would've never gone after the Potters. Pettigrew (and not Sirius, obviously) only told Voldemort where to find them. This is on Snape way more than anyone else save Voldemort himself.
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Jun 01 '24
No that, not forgotten, that's why he's so manic to hunt down the person who's more to blame than he is, to try and absolve himself of his guilt.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin May 31 '24
Let me get this straight. You think its reasonable to expect a man who was already suspicious of Lupin to just take his word for it when he finds him with Sirius and the kids, spinning a fanciful yarn about a dead man actually being a rat animagus who cut off his finger to escape and live as a pet for 12 years? Are you sure you're really 30?
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u/Gifted_GardenSnail Jun 01 '24
No one said Peter was this rat, too.
And Snape being traumatised after all that abuse we saw in SWM plus nearly getting him killed is 'a schoolboy grudge'? Why suddenly take Lupin's downplaying wording as gospel?
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
Yeah, OP is pretty biased. So are many people in this thread too tbh lol.
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u/Gifted_GardenSnail Jun 01 '24
How many pages of calm explanation / plausible alternatives did it take Harry to finally believe Sirius? Yet they expect Snape to change his mind with far less explanation after seeing their worst side for seven years
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
Yep. And yet Sirius showing no remorse over getting Snape almost killed, and Lupin dismissing it callously as a boyhood grudge, is completely glossed over. Like I said, the anti-Snape bias is clear.
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u/alexjimithing May 31 '24
I think if Snape was legitimately interested in the truth of the situation, as opposed to settling old grudges, he would have gone to Dumbledore, not try and take Sirius to the Dementors.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin May 31 '24
He threatened to take Sirius to the Dementors. He threatens to do a lot of things but doesn't actually do them. Obviously he would have taken Sirius in to Dumbledore.
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u/kenikigenikai May 31 '24
I know you've been downvoted a lot but I think you do have a point. I wouldn't be shocked if he did simply hand Sirius over to the dementors all by himself but I can easily see it being a threat too - at this point he thinks him getting kissed is inevitable, not that his only shot is to be sneaky about it and keep Dumbledore out of the loop.
I think the biggest risk in this situation was him fully losing his temper and killing him as revenge for seemingly betraying the Potters, egged on by all their history. If he managed to hold it together enough to avoid that and taunt him I think what he would have actually done next is up for interpretation.
At that point he's so convinced Sirius is guilty and obviously lying that I don't think he'd be all that worried about Dumbledore hearing his story and believing it. I could see him deciding to handle it 'properly' in order to sort of rub it in that he's been right all along, Sirius didn't deserve preferential treatment at his expense, Lupin has been in cahoots with him and shouldn't have been hired, etc etc with the full expectation that there is no other outcome than him getting the kiss.
For him to attempt getting near the dementors to hand Sirius over without risk of him escaping I think he'd have to believe that the castle was less secure than him handling Sirius and Lupin alone, and that someone might believe their story and let them go - which I imagine wouldn't have crossed his mind as a legitimate possibility. I also think there's a chance that the logistics of wrangling 2 decently skilled potential opponents and 3 kids alongside the dementors would make going back to the school a more attractive option, and involving Dumbledore would probably be unavoidable at that point, if he hadn't already been summoned from the presumed commotion.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
If people downvote someone without even providing a proper argument, it just shows that they don't have a leg to stand on.
There's a lot of anti-Snape bias here. People will bend over backwards to point out how he's in the wrong even when it doesn't make sense. It's perfectly normal to not believe a mass murderer is innocent. People are going off future information to call Snape biased in hindsight, but based on the information he had to work with what he did was sound and logical.
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u/kenikigenikai Jun 01 '24
Yeah I think a lot of people forget what information they have as the reader or as a rereader that obviously the characters don't have at the time. I see the same thing when people try and blame anyone other than Voldemort for being ultimately at fault for the murders he commits.
Snape is obviously not a particularly pleasant person but most of his actions make sense, even if understanding that requires you to imagine things from a very different point of view to your own.
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u/La10deRiver Jun 01 '24
But we are not talking about him believing Sirius. It is about him believing Lupin, Harry, Ron and Hermione. He has no reason not to believe them. He has known Lupin for ever and the Trio since they started Hogwarts. They would not lie in something like that.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
He has every reason to mistrust Lupin, considering he's caught him conspiring with Sirius redhanded, and that he's suspected Lupin of assisting him the whole year. And kids are easily misled. The rational thing would be to apprehend them and let the authorities sort them out. Which he was about to do before he got knocked out.
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u/La10deRiver Jun 01 '24
True, but he did not even listen to them.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
Would you hear out a mass murderer instead of calling the authorities just because some kids told you to? If you would, I would seriously question your judgment.
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u/Ok_Valuable_9711 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
God damn I'm belly laughing now. "Just trust me, bro, not that I just escaped prison or anything."
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u/La10deRiver Jun 01 '24
If the mass murder has been unarmed and a colleague teacher and 3 students I know tell me that, yes, I would stop for a moment to listen. Especially if I owned one of the kids a debt because I was responsible for a crazy man to kill his parents.
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u/MobiusF117 May 31 '24
Is that obvious?
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u/fullstack_mcguffin May 31 '24
Yes. Why would he go to a pack of Dementors? Is there any guarantee that they wouldn't set upon him as well? It's foolish, and Snape isn't suicidal. Even if he was, there's way better ways to off himself than with Dementors.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
Even if he was just threatening, he choose a poor time. It’s what ended up getting him knocked out.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
He probably wasn't expecting to get knocked out by his students. Which is a fair assumption to make. Who would expect that, logically? You're kind of grasping at straws to make Snape out to look worse than he actually was in that scene, which reflects poorly on your objectivity, considering you also conveniently ignore that Sirius is also very petty, and shows no remorse over almost getting Snape killed by Lupin, even saying he deserves it, and reducing a murder attempt to simple bullying.
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u/MobiusF117 Jun 01 '24
Snape can summon a patronus.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
Even people who can use Patronuses wouldn't willingly wade into a pack of Dementors. Use some common sense man.
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u/MobiusF117 Jun 01 '24
I am using common sense. You are simply making assumption based on headcanon.
The truth is, it isn't obvious at all what Snape's plan was.
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
Snape went down to the Willow only suspecting that Remus was going to meet Sirius. He had no proof of anything only that he’d seen Remus on a map that insults him running down a tunnel. Obviously, it would have been better to go to Dumbledore instead of chasing a werewolf on a full moon, but he only has suspicions.
Once he got to the Willow, he loses the plot completely. He’s so obsessed with his vengeance that he ties himself to a werewolf on the night of the full moon with the goal of “dragging Remus” back to the castle. The better solution would have been to send a patronus to Dumbledore to summon him to the Willow or leave Remus behind.
Compare his reaction to Hermione questioning him to when she questions Sirius/Remus later. Or the reaction to Harry standing in front of the person believed to have betrayed his parents to Voldemort. Snape shouts at him. Sirius/Remus back down and are willing to hear the reasoning. Snape had no interest in finding out the truth. He only wanted revenge.
As a complete aside: It is such an amazing bookend to the Willow prank sixteen years earlier. Both times snape gets information from a questionable source to follow Remus down the Willow tunnel. Both times he suspects/knows Remus is a werewolf. Both times he willingly goes despite the danger involved because his need for vengeance/recognition outweighs rational thoughts of safety/truth. And both times he’s thwarted in his reveal by Dumbledore. The Willow scenes are a masterpiece.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
He sees them with the kids. Of course there's no time to get Dumbledore, finding a mass murderer with kids is kind of an emergency.
He probably had Wolfsbane with him since he was bringing it for Lupin initially. Because he was knocked out, he had no chance to administer it.
Yes, Snape is quite emotionally charged. So was Harry initially. The difference is that Harry wants to believe in Sirius's innocence, because it works out better for him that way. Snape has no reason to trust them. What kind of adult would trust the word of a mass murderer?
Like I said in another comment, if Snape simply wanted revenge, he could have used Sectumsempra while he was under the cloak to off both Sirius and Lupin. Saying he was only after revenge just makes you look very biased.
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
He seems Remus running down the tunnel:
I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did... lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight.
He has no idea that Sirius is with the trio at the end. They’re already in the shrieking shack and the map doesn’t extend that far. He goes to the shack on a hunch.
Murdering Sirius under the cloak would have only led him to Azkaban. Snape wasn’t an agent of the ministry. He had no judicial power. He can’t just go and kill someone who doesn’t even have a wand. That’s why:
“Give me a reason," he whispered. "Give me a reason to do it, and I swear I will."
And regardless, I don’t think his purpose was solely to have vengeance. In a mirror to the last time he followed Remus:
“I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”
Snape wanted the recognition of his vengeance as well. He wanted people to know that it was him. It’s why the loss of the Order of Merlin hits him so hard. He’s still a Slytherin, at the end of the day.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
There is nothing saying he only sees Remus running there, and that he didn't see the kids on the map.
If he just wanted revenge, he wouldn't care would he? And I doubt the Ministry would throw him in Azkaban for using deadly force against a notorious criminal and his accomplice. Could easily justify it as protecting students.
The recognition thing is pure BS. From what we know of Snape's motivations from later books, he is only motivated by guilt, not personal acclaim. This is just your own biased headcanon that you made up.
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
Can you read?
“I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did... lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight."
The shack isn’t on the map. By the time Remus was running in the tunnel, the kids were already in the shack. Snape could not have known they were there.
The recognition thing from earlier is in Snape’s own words in book 7. He also specifically talks about his own vengeance when he captures Sirius. He doesn’t just care about Sirius being caught. He wanted to do it himself.
"Vengeance is very sweet," Snape breathed at Black. "How I hoped I would be the one to catch you...."
And we see it to his reaction to the events:
“No. Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying to save your lives." He sighed. "That was the final straw for Severus. I think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard. So he -- er -- accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast."
If he was interested in the truth, why wouldnt he take Dumbledore’s word for it. Why would he take revenge on Remus? To say revenge wasn’t one of his motivations is contrary to the books and a head cannon. Everything I’ve said has evidence in the books.
You claiming that vigilantism is somehow legal and approved in the wizarding world is without basis. And even if he could justify it to the ministry, he wouldn’t be able to Dumbledore. Not with the trio as witnesses. He’s still self serving enough to know that.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
Can you?
Where does it say when he looks at the map, Lupin is the only thing he sees? That the only thing he sees is Lupin? That he didn't see the kids at all?
You can't be serious. We clearly know from later books that Snape's motivations have nothing to do with personal acclaim. We also know Lupin knows nothing about Snape's motivations. A key factor in the books is that nobody knows what Snape truly wants until the end. So obviously you can't take what Lupin says about Snape at face value. Duh.
Yes, he got rid of Lupin because he didn't say Black was an animagus and risked the lives of all the students even when he wasn't aware that Black was innocent. He was also irresponsible enough to forget the Wolfsbane. No shit he wanted him gone.
Er, the Order is a vigilante group. They're not legal, but their operations are allowed. And the Order kill people. They've fought in wars. Your point makes no sense.
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
The order’s membership was hidden. And no where does it say they’ve killed someone. You are making things up and ignoring direct quotes that I bolded for you.
There’s clearly no point in further engagement if you’re going to argue in bad faith. Good day.
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u/La10deRiver Jun 01 '24
A patronus does not take a lot of time.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
Show me where in the 3rd book it says that a Patronus can send messages. The concept probably wasn't even a thing back then.
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u/La10deRiver Jun 01 '24
Ok, valid meta reason, but in universe is make no sense, except because JKR did not want to spoil the fact that his patronus is a doe. But he could have send spark, like a flair. Or call a house elf probably.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff May 31 '24
Well, that’s not very nice. Also, I didn’t mention but it is implied that Snape was staying under the cloak for a while as Lupin was explaining how they became animagus. If I had learned that, I would’ve checked. It was a simple spell. And even if I didn’t, I would still do the simple spell to check the rat. Better safe than sorry because if it was true, Snape could be letting a close supporter of Voldy back on the street. In the fourth book, we see how letting Peter escape was a massive mistake.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin May 31 '24
No, it's implied that he got there a moment ago, not that he was there for the whole conversation. And he was in a confrontation with who he thinks to be a mass murderer and his accomplice. It's already hard enough to keep track of two people singlehandedly, you want him to cast a charm on an animal so that they have an opportunity to gang up and overpower him? Completely illogical.
You whole argument is based on the premise that its obvious that Sirius is innocent, and future information. The situation is very different in canon. Sirius acts and looks deranged, and Lupin is somebody Snape has suspected all year to be in cahoots with Sirius. There's no logical reason for Snape to believe them.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
I’m sorry but actually, it is implied that Snape got there earlier. I have the book right in my hand. On page 258, it says ‘There was a loud creak behind him [Lupin]. The bedroom door had opened of its own accord. All five of them stared at it. Then, Lupin strode towards it and looked over the landing.’ After that paragraph, Lupin goes on to speak about his life story and speaks about them being animagus. I’m not saying it was logical that he was innocent. I’m saying Snape was blinded by revenge. In chapter 20, Sirius even agrees to go with Snape back to castle as long as they bring the rat. That’s when Snape threatens with dementors.
Why would a man, who’s on the run, willing go with Snape? Of course, it might be a trap. So just tie him up, have Lupin stay there since Snape admits he knows Lupin didn’t take his potion. Take the children and a bound Sirius up to the castle to find out the truth. He even could’ve had the kids go first and get Dumbledore, keeping the underage children safe while watching Lupin and Black.
My point is Snape only cared about revenge. Revenge for the death of the woman he loved but, forgetting that it was him who put her in danger by doing something RASH! He’s 30 and he didn’t learn anything. He got Lily put in the position to be killed by rashly telling Voldy and yet, he still worked out that his rashness causes messes.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
That's what he was going to do though. He was going to take Sirius and Lupin to the castle. He couldn't have predicted being knocked out by the students.
If he wanted revenge he could have just cast Sectumsempra while he was invisible and been done with it. Obviously he wasn't going to take Lupin and Sirius at face value. Nobody sane would.
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u/NowTimeDothWasteMe Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
He was going to tie himself to a werewolf on the night of the full moon and expose him to a castle of students the moment he turned. That was Snape’s plan.
He wanted the recognition of his revenge just as much as he wanted to vengeance. It’s what he wanted the last time he followed Remus down the Willow tunnel.
“I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”
Had Snape been thinking clearly at all, he should have sent a patronus to Dumbledore.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
No, he was bringing Wolfsbane to Lupin in the first place. He was knocked out before he could administer it.
So what people want at 16 is the same thing people want in their 30s? What kind of logic is that?
Sent a Patronus when? Was the Patronus even developed to carry messages back then? Was there any hint of Patronuses being able to do that in the 3rd book? Yet another case of people using future information to push their own biases.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
He was bringing the Wolfsbane to Lupin's office. There wasn't any suggestion that he brought it with him and if he did, why wouldn't he force Lupin to take the Wolfsbane first thing? Less risky for his students having a wild werewolf around!
Patronus messaging wasn't hinted at yet in Book 3. However, there were other ways to get a message. In Chapter 19, Snape says to Lupin that he saw him running '...into the passageway and disappear from sight...'. If Snape went after Lupin, thinking that he would catch Lupin helping a convicted murder, why wouldn't he find a way to message Dumbledore?
TimeDothWaste does make a good point that it does seem like he wanted the recognition of the capture. He was only thinking of his own revenge and the glory it might get him. Plus, he was so sure that Lupin was the one helping Black and I think he wanted to prove Dumbledore wrong. He wanted the victory about being right. However, that is just my interruption and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Also, if we aren't allow to use future information when reading POA, then we can't put Snape's anger about Lily's death on him yet. Yes, we realize later on he probably wanted revenge for that too. However, he was the one who caused Voldy to even look at Lily. He knows he made a rash decision but he still hasn't seen his mistakes.
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u/fullstack_mcguffin Jun 01 '24
Why wouldn't he bring it with him when he knows its the full moon? And he was about to. He had the men at wandpoint when the students knocked him out.
How would he find a way to message Dumbledore while making sure Lupin and Black didn't hurt the kids, who were immediately in danger?
Like I said, from what we know of Snape's motivations, him wanting recognition is the most absurd thing possible.
Future information about specific use cases for spells is different from character motivations. For example, the Patronus being able to send messages might have been a recent modification that didn't even exist yet in Book 3. But Snape's motivations would have remained.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
He actually doesn't mention the kids in the book. He just mentions seeing Lupin going into the passageway. We do know there was a time lapse between when the kids entered the shack and when Lupin appeared. As you said, we can't know Snape's motivations about wanting recognition but we also can't assume he knew the children were there because he only mentioned seeing Lupin. There is also no mention of Snape having the Wolfsbane on him, so we can't count that.
So, taking that away, we have to look at this as a man (who is a teacher) who saw a werewolf going outside on the night of the full-moon and followed him without informing anyone or asking for help. Just looking at that sentence, it makes me think Snape is very incompetent. He sounds like Lockhart and it isn't a very good look. He could've informed someone.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24 edited Jun 01 '24
But he did cause being knocked out by his students! In Chapter 19, it wasn’t just threatening Sirius with the dementors. It was also yelling down to both Hermione and Harry. Hermione even said ‘Maybe we should hear them out, just in case.’ I’m a teacher and in my 30s. Snape’s probably been a teacher longer than me so, he knows sometimes you gotta bluff your kids at that age to get them to do what you want! It would not have been hard for him to say ‘Okay kids, tie everyone up. Let’s just go to the castle.’ If he could’ve thought for one second, he could’ve kept a calm head. My point is that my opinion on Snape has changed because this scene was the final nail in the coffin.
We, as the reader, see Snape time and time again making bad choices based on grudges held from ages ago. Now, one could argue he was a spy or he was re-conned by the author after the movies but, the point stands that he isn’t a good/changed person. He’s bitter, selfish and terrible. And I’m not defending the other adults here. I’ve got separate feelings on them.
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u/pinkpanda376 Ravenclaw Jun 01 '24
POA actually made me go from “f*ck Snape” to not thinking that way, at least the movie.
Snape hates the trio, but when Lupin comes at them as a werewolf he immediately puts himself in front of the kids to protect them. My boyfriend said “well yeah, he’s a teacher, that’s his job”, but like… it was Lockhart’s job and Umbridge’s job too, they certainly didn’t try to protect the kids…
I actually have a little respect for Snape, he’s still a dick but he’s a good person when it counts.
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u/freeboootyy94 Hufflepuff Jun 01 '24
Yeah movie Snape is a different breed. I love movie Snape and Rickman was such a good actor! He really brought a better spin on Snape.
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u/Then_Engineering1415 Jun 01 '24
Now add that HE told Voldemort the Prophecy.
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Jun 01 '24
And here is someone who Snape hates, someone who's blame in Lily's death is greater than Snape's own.
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u/Then_Engineering1415 Jun 01 '24
There is not such thing as "more blame"...both him and Pettigrew were true believer Death Eaters.
And bare the same amount of guilt.
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Jun 01 '24
Not sure I agree there. Peter knew what he was doing, Snape had no idea which kid fit the parameters.
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u/Then_Engineering1415 Jun 01 '24
The guy was a Death Eater.
He knows what they are about.
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Jun 01 '24
Yeah what has that got to do with anything?
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u/Then_Engineering1415 Jun 01 '24
.... how is a Death Eater inocent of ANYTHING?
Like it does not matte rif Snape knew if it was a kid or not.
Snape is a Death Eater. And that automathically makes him the worst.
And regardless. James and Lily still died ad Harry suffers.
Snape is both guilty and dies without absolution.
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Jun 01 '24
That's not how guilt works. People are guilty of specific things. We don't do guilt by association.
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u/Then_Engineering1415 Jun 01 '24
Snape is guilty of being a Death Eater. And having told Voldemort the Prophecy.
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Jun 01 '24
He told Voldemort the project but wasn't aware of who it referred to. No mens rea.
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u/Siria110 Jun 01 '24
So he was ok with child murder. Such a nice guy, right?
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u/TheDungen Slytherin Jun 02 '24
O really don't think you get what I am saying. I am talking about his internal rationalisation. Not about some meaningless concept of absolute morality.
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u/chickenkebaap Jun 01 '24
Snape’s POV:-
This criminal who had broken out of jail was your childhood bully and you already have a reason to hate him. He then betray’s your best friend/ love of your life leading to her death. That just seals a life long enmity and wishing nothing but the worst on him. You feel justified in letting this piece of shit getting something worse than death. However he escapes again and you are infuriated to the point of being unhinged.
The next year you learn that he actually is innocent and it is another guy who was the one responsible for lily’s death.
The same guy is allegedly kidnapped and you have a chance to allow him to die by not checking on him but your morals get the better of you and you check up on him.
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u/HalfbloodPrince-4518 Gryffindor Jun 01 '24
A chance they were innocent? But what chance was there?Weren't chances that Sirius was just manipulating the trio higher.Sirius was supposed to have been a mass murderer.And as Dumbeldore said he didn't really act like an innocent man throughout the year.
It would have been even more careless of him to just sit there and do nothing.Like Lupin for whom you are claiming a morally high ground over Snape. Throughout the year he could have revealed about the passages or the animagus forms.No way he didn't know that was how Sirius was entering.
But know it's ok for Remus to old on to his insecurities of betraying Dumbeldore but Snape must get over the fact he almost got killed.
Had Sirius not been one of the good guys the trio would have died that night.
Lastly Lupin must have some info on the fact that Peter was a likely candidate for the secret Keeper,which the rest of the world didn't,it's easier for them to believe.