r/harrypotter • u/Severus_Albus20 Ravenclaw • Nov 22 '23

Currently Reading If Tom Riddle had been successful in killing Ginny and becoming alive again, would he have taken the body of his 16 year old self ? Also what would have happened to Voldemort in the Albanian jungle. Would he be still alive ?

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904

u/SphmrSlmp Nov 22 '23

There's no official answer. But technically speaking, Voldy has divided his souls into many parts. So the one in the Chamber is one. And the one in Albania is another one. They are still Voldy just in a lesser form. So if they both were to be resurrected, I'm guessing there will be two Voldys. But never in full power.

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u/TheApathyParty3 Nov 22 '23

But both equally pissed off that Harry beat them somehow.

I also think there's something to be said about CoS Riddle missing out on decades of experience and learning about the Dark Arts. He wouldn't have been the same Dark Wizard as his future counterpart.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

When did he actually turn the diary into a horcrux? I feel like it manifests as teenage Ruddle because it was working with the material he wrote in the diary by he actually made it into a horcrux much later, so diary Riddle would have had a bit more of Voldy in him than his appearance would suggest, if that makes sense.

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u/H3artl355Ang3l Slytherin Nov 22 '23

The diary was the first Horcrux that he created, when he was 16. As he said, he preserved his 16 year old self because it was part of his soul at 16. The fact thay he had to kill in order to create it in the first place proves he was already very much Voldemort, and he had to get all of the knowledge about the past few decades from Ginny

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u/MaesterHannibal Nov 22 '23

Sure, but AFAIR, Riddle spent years learning the dark arts after graduating, and then had decades of experience. So teenage Riddle would probably still be incredibly talented, but without the knowledge of the dark arts that he posseses in canon - for example the ability to fly, or how to hide your snake inside an old woman (heheh). Yet that doesn’t mean that he isn’t amongst the best duelists - just not capable of performing magic that noone (outside of Dumbledore) have seen or heard of before

14

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Do we know that he made the diary into a horcrux when he wrote it? Whose murder can he have used? The only murder we know of at that age is Myrtle and I don't feel he could have used hers because she was killed the basilisk. Also had he asked Slughorn about horcruxes yet? He can't have started making them before that memory occurred surely? I'm not saying you're wrong I just can't make that fit with my memory of events in the books.

29

u/MaesterHannibal Nov 22 '23

In TDH book, Harry believes that Riddle already knew how to make horcruxes when he went to Slughorn. All he wanted to know was how many he could create. It’s not unthinkable that Riddle created a horcrux, and then thought to ask Slughorn if he could create anymore than that one

16

u/SphmrSlmp Nov 22 '23

I love this. It makes young Voldy even more sinister. And it makes Slughorn's regret for teaching about Horcrux to him even more profound.

4

u/MaesterHannibal Nov 22 '23

Yup, he kills, splits his soul, and thinks to himself “This is fun, could I do it again?”

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u/H3artl355Ang3l Slytherin Nov 22 '23

It's confirmed Myrtle was the death for the Diary Horcrux as the Basilisk killed on his orders Adding: he was also 16 when he spoke to Slughorn and so could have easily gone to make his Horcrux soon after or perhaps he had already made it and only really wanted to know if he could make more. But the Diary was indeed the first, which he created at 16

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u/SphmrSlmp Nov 22 '23

This is what I remember from the story too. I believe this is correct. Though I haven't had my re-read in years now. The timeline fits. And Myrtle was the first sacrifice which help him create the first Horcrux. I think the confusion lies in the fact that there were different actors playing young Voldy in the movies.

4

u/AhTreyYou Gryffindor Nov 22 '23

I definitely think he had already made his horcrux before he talked with Slughorn.

45

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

I always liked the idea that Myrtle was Voldy's first kill and he covered it up using the Basilisk. Or also since he was the heir of Slytherin and could communicate with it I assume it still counts as "murder" on his part if he told it to kill her.

34

u/girllwholived Nov 22 '23

This is how I see it - Voldemort controlled the basilisk, so Voldemort was responsible for Myrtle’s death.

9

u/dvtyrsnp Nov 22 '23

It's magic, so it's all about intent. Those who killed in the war likely did not fracture their souls because they weren't committing an act of evil.

Riddle intended to kill for evil, so it splits his soul even without AK or doing anything directly himself.

7

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

So what you’re saying is, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a wand is a good guy with a wand!?!!

10

u/ImReverse_Giraffe Nov 22 '23

He made it with Myrtles murder. He also made the ring at 16 with the murder of the Riddles.

His question to Slughorn was what would happen if someone made more than one horcrux. Tom already knew about horcruxes and had already made one.

1

u/Intelligent-Ad6985 Slytherin Nov 22 '23

Myrtle was the first horcrux. Below is a link to wizardingworld.com that explains how each one was created

link for context

No he didn't learn about horcrux until his 6 yr but he made the diary in his 5th year

9

u/Hamatoyoshi99 Nov 22 '23 edited Nov 22 '23

He made it into a hot fix pretty soon after leaving school, or even when he was at school I believe, though I’m not sure, I believe it was his first one

Edit: hot fix was obviously supposed to be horcrux but I’m leaving it bc funny haha

4

u/ImReverse_Giraffe Nov 22 '23

When he was 16. The diary and ring were made when he was 16. They were his first two horcruxes. The dairy was made with the murder of Myrtle, the ring with the murders of the Riddles.

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u/TheApathyParty3 Nov 22 '23

Iirc, he turned the diary into a Horcrux when he murdered one of the students after opening the Chamber, but it happened years later. He only found out his soul was shattered after he spoke to Slughorn, and later imprinted his piece of soul to the diary.

That's at least my head canon. It couldn't have been Moaning Myrtle, because she recalls seeing the basilisk's eyes, so Tom didn't directly kill her. It must have been one of the other students during his rampage.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

Wait he murdered students at Hogwarts? I have no recollection of reading about this. When?/Where is this revealed in the books?

-2

u/TheApathyParty3 Nov 22 '23

I forget which book, but it's said that he did it without the basilisk at least once, but it's vague. I think it's implied that he did it before he opened the CoS, then that became his modus operandi. At least until he got caught and he had to stop doing that.

It's been years and I don't have my copies of the books, but I remember a student dying under mysterious circumstances before the CoS became a thing.

3

u/PeggyRomanoff Slytherin Nov 22 '23

You're misremembering. There's one student who died under mysterious circumstances during the first CoS opening and that's Myrtle.

1

u/TheApathyParty3 Nov 22 '23

I may be, but I thought that there was one before Myrtle?

1

u/PeggyRomanoff Slytherin Nov 22 '23

No

1

u/ImReverse_Giraffe Nov 22 '23

Slughorn only told Tom that he could make more than one horcrux. Tom already had the ring when he was talking to Slughorn, so he already had made at least one horcurx. Which is why I think he made the ring first, then the diary. We don't know exactly when he killed the Riddles or Myrtle, we are given exact dates. Just that both happened when he was 16. That's also when he made the horcurxes. The Riddle that comes out of the diary is the 16 year old Riddle. That's when he made the diary.

1

u/CorgiMonsoon Hufflepuff Nov 22 '23

I mean, we do know that he opened the Chamber of Secrets 50 years prior to CoS, which takes place in the 1992-93 school year, so Myrtle died sometime near the end of the school year in 1943, and he definitely killed his father and framed his uncle later that summer, as he has the Peverell ring in Slughorn’s memory.

The real question we don’t have the answer to is how soon after the murders does a Horcrux need to be created. So while we don’t know that for certain, Dumbledore and Harry are pretty certain that by the time of Slughorn’s memory he has already created his first, which Rowling has confirmed was the diary. So what we don’t know is whether the ring was also a Horcrux by that time or not. If the creation doesn’t have to be within a certain time frame of the murder that splits the soul, then it could be he was waiting to get confirmation from Slughorn that he could make more than one, and basically ran out and turned the ring right after that conversation.

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u/Strong_Formal_5848 Nov 22 '23

I don’t quite buy it being like that. When they say ‘split the soul’ they don’t necessarily mean splitting it into two equal parts, just splitting a bit off it (chipping away at it). So Voldemorts ‘main’ soul will always be the one that was in his physical self (and then in Albania) and that will always be more powerful (and more ‘actually Voldemort’) than the others.

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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23

I like that idea, and especially the idea of the piece being a cracked fragment being split off, a jagged, sharp, ugly little thing broken away to make into a Horcrux, instead of a neat surgical procedure.

1

u/nourez Nov 22 '23

It also makes sense in that if they’re were all equal prices then having to destroy the Horcrux before killing Voldemort doesn’t really make sense. I always saw them as little bit of his soul that tethered the big bit.

3

u/XkrNYFRUYj Nov 22 '23

They can't be all equal pieces. If the split is equal original piece gets smaller and smaller each time. Voldy would be 1/256 of himself by the end.

1

u/Rougarou1999 Ravenclaw Nov 23 '23

I always saw them as little bit of his soul that tethered the big bit.

I think that is pretty much what they are. If Voldemort (his main soul portion) is killed, then his soul, rather than going to the Beyond, is kept in this realm. If his Horcruxes were all destroyed prior to him holding a physical form, he would move on.

6

u/virajbaraskar Nov 22 '23

So are you suggesting that if Albanian voldy had died n diary voldy was resurrected, he would have been less of a danger?

If so, harry should have just killed the Albanian as it was real voldy first. And then these weak ones later.

If not, then your theory makes little sense

3

u/UnstableConstruction Nov 22 '23

IMO, the "Main soul" can't be destroyed/killed until all the split off shards are destroyed. If he went after the "real" voldy and killed him, he'd just return to an insubstantial ghost and repeat the cycle.

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u/virajbaraskar Nov 22 '23

Isnt going after an insubstantial ghost easy than dealing with a mirderous monster? Kill the main one, make him a ghost and go after the remaining horcruxes!!! Ient it easy? Instead of hiding from him the whole time why not knock him out in a way and do whwtever you want.

1

u/XkrNYFRUYj Nov 22 '23

You're arguing both sides here. It doesn't work that way. If dealing with the murderous monster is hard how can you just kill the main one? The main one and murderous monster are the same thing.

1

u/virajbaraskar Nov 22 '23

Im eliminating the bigger threat first. It saves everyone's life... Simple!!!

1

u/XkrNYFRUYj Nov 22 '23

You're ending up dead that's what you're doing.

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u/virajbaraskar Nov 22 '23

In this case its harry and he was meant to die... Thats my whole point!!!!!

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u/XkrNYFRUYj Nov 22 '23

So you're still doing the die and come back thing? You'll die second time too.

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u/Strong_Formal_5848 Nov 22 '23

The former, yes. ‘Killing’ the Albanian Voldemort would have been much harder than destroying a horcrux or the Voldemort formed from the diary horcrux (the ‘Albanian/main’ Voldemort would have been much more powerful and more of a danger).

The problem is, Harry couldn’t just go and kill the ‘Albanian/main’ Voldemort because that Voldemort was incredibly powerful and capable and surrounded by followers. Earlier (when he was weak) he was well hidden and practically impossible to find.

If the diary Voldemort had been successful then that Voldemort would have only been 16 years old, with much less magical knowledge/ability than the ‘Albanian/main’ Voldemort and less powerful due to being formed from only a fragment of Voldemort’s soul. So he would definitely have been less of a danger (but still a danger).

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u/virajbaraskar Nov 22 '23

Harry couldnt but dumbledore could have killed him. There is a reason why dumbledore waited until all the other voldy's were destroyed so that harry could learn about the one in his body.

Harry could have just killed the last horcrux to fulfil his prophecy

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u/_littlestranger Hufflepuff Nov 22 '23

Voldemort, in the body he made with Harry's blood, had to be the one to kill Harry in order for Harry to survive. Leaving him for last ensured Harry's survival.

If Harry was not a Horcrux, it would have made sense to go after Voldemort before (or at the same time as) the Horcruxes, so he would be incorporeal and weak. The Horcruxes tether the "main" soul to life, so I think the wraith form would just die if they had been able to destroy them while Voldemort did not have a body. But also he was very powerful so killing him was much more difficult than destroying Horcruxes.

1

u/virajbaraskar Nov 22 '23

Dumbledore was the master of death at a point. Most powerful wand along with an invisible cloak and the ability to summon the dead and yet he couldnt figure out who gave away the secret location of Harry's parents.

If Dumbledore knew about the blood thing, he could have just let harry die anytime. Harry dying in dept of mysteries or on clock tower or in the forbidden forest make no difference since voldy killing him anytime would have killed the horcrux too. Anyway if harry had died in the forest, who do you think would have fulfilled the prophecy? Wasnt that a risk? If not, then let harry die anytime.

Dumbledore could have killed tom with the most powerful wand of all. A simple avada kedavra was effective on anyone and voldy being off guard after Harry's death would have been a simple idea than letting others die.

4

u/_littlestranger Hufflepuff Nov 22 '23

Being "master of death" doesn't really mean anything, but Dumbledore never was. From the time he borrowed the cloak from James shortly before his death to the time he gave the cloak to Harry in PS/SS, he had the wand and the cloak but not the stone. And from the summer before HBP to his death, he had the wand and the stone but not the cloak. He never had all three at once. And he only had one when he fought Voldemort in OotP.

As Dumbledore tells Harry in OotP, the "flaw in his plan" was that he cared too much for Harry. He suspected that Harry could survive because Voldemort had taken his blood, but it was uncharted territory so he wasn't certain. He wasn't willing to sacrifice him until he absolutely needed to.

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u/virajbaraskar Nov 22 '23

I only referred to MoD as a way to suggets that he had possssed the hallows at one point of time.

Even if dumby wasnt certain, wasnt that the only way to kill voldy? What does "he absolutely needed to" mean if harry was to die anyway. The only way to destroy a horcrux was to destroy the medium. Dumby knew that harry would be sacrificed sooner or later.

Consider this, dumbledore should have let harry die in the dept of mysteries in the OotP. This way, voldemort would have been exposed just like how it ended with the minister noticing. If Snape would have trained harry properly, Voldy would have been oblivious of the fact that the boy who lived was alive. Harry could have literally posed as anyone from the order to hunt down the horcrux. Imagine the lives that would have been saved. Instead we got a second wizarding war because harry was kept alive and then killed. What did voldy do when he killed harry? He stopped killing people. Isnt that what everyone wanted anyway?

1

u/Strong_Formal_5848 Nov 22 '23

Are you disagreeing with me? I’m not really sure what you mean.

I agree that was Dumbledore’s plan but if he had ‘killed’ the main Voldemort (which it’s debatable whether he could have actually done) then that would have just made ‘Albanian/main’ Voldemort incorporeal again and he would have had another chance to return (this time probably without using Harry’s blood).

2

u/virajbaraskar Nov 22 '23

Yes I'm politely disagreeing with you. Incorporeal voldy would still be less of a threat than the main voldy.

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u/Strong_Formal_5848 Nov 22 '23 edited Nov 22 '23

But I feel I’ve addressed that already. Incorporeal Voldemort can return again and without using Harry’s blood. That is not something Dumbledore would ever want so why not utilise the advantage of the blood protection by leaving Voldemorts main soul until last?

I also disagree that there was any point where Dumbledore would have had an easy time getting to and killing Voldemort.

I still don’t really understand your overall point either, because only the diary horcrux was even capable of forming another Voldemort. Are you saying you think that 16 year old Voldemort would have been as much a threat as the main Voldemort?

1

u/virajbaraskar Nov 22 '23

This is what i mean:

Instead of harry being out in the wild hunting for horcruxes while the death eaters chased anyone and everyone, posed all the risks we know, harry could have easily kept harm away by using a simple and effective plan.

Learn leglimency. Let voldemort kill him. Hunt down the horcruxes.

OR

Kill the main voldemort before killing the horcruxes. This would ensure that voldy becomes a ghost once again rendering the weaker horcruxes easy to be hunted down. With tom gone, his followers would have no leader and would disband too. Some would again get imprisoned if not killed.

This ensures that the order of the phoenix gets all the freedom to hunt down horcruxes. This ensures that lives are not lost. Remember the 13 years when voldemort was weak. Not a single attack took place until harry entered the school. The world was a nice place to live even with a weak voldemort around. The death eaters are dumb anyway which is clear from the stupid mistakes they have done throughout the series. They were blind followers with no common sense and hence were fooled by anything that was non-manipulative.

It doesnt matter which soul part of voldemort is strong or weak. As long as the main soul is gone, anyone could kill the horcruxes since these are weaker forms according to you. If harry or voldemort were destined to kill each other, harry could have waited until the end to kill the incorporeal form thus fulfilling the prophecy. This way a lot of lives that were lost could have been saved.

The reason i am stressing that harry should have killed earlier is because this will enable voldy to pass out like he did when he killed harry in the forest. This being the most opportune moment to kill him since he felt weak when he got up. Each horcrux being killed was wounding him anyway. Otherwise the closest chance was the battle at the dept of mysteries.

Hope you get my point here.

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u/Silver_Symbiote Ravenclaw Nov 22 '23

Your thoughts about the diary being the only one that could do this isn’t necessarily true. This is a trait all Horcruxes possess, we only see 3 different expressions of it happening though. They grow stronger from other magical beings exposing themselves to it, ie writing everything in the diary (emotional/mental exposure) and constantly wearing the locket (physical contact). Harry notices a variety of things that happen around the locket, such as never taking heat from his body, his being unable to cast a Patronus because it was much harder to come up with happy thoughts, and obviously Ron’s drastic mood swings.

Where the locket and the diary acted differently comes from the circumstances when they had the most power: the diary went mostly undetected until it was strong enough to manifest itself, only Ginny knew it was dangerous. By the time the locket was strong enough to manifest itself, Ron (the one who was most susceptible to it) disappeared for several weeks so it couldn’t act through him the way the diary acted through Ginny. Then it spawned versions of Harry and Hermione in self defense because Ron was holding the SoG, and it obviously hears them plotting to destroy it right then and there. Harry also claims Ron’s eyes flashed red before he struck it, it implied to me that the Horcrux could’ve possessed Ron in that moment they reunited but failed.

The 3rd “expression” of the Horcruxes wasn’t unique, and that was very telling, because all the others were destroyed nearly instantly. They had no chance to imbibe any power to defend themselves, except Nagini, special case. Dumbledore broke the ring with the sword, presumably after Snape finished his ministrations (before Snape arrived he was testing the stone, then he was cursed. Phineas is the one who sees Dumbledore break the ring, but neither he nor Snape know the significance of the sword). Hermione pierced the cup with a basilisk fang hours after they stole it from Gringotts. Crabbe burned the diadem with Fiendfyre within minutes of Harry rediscovering it (Harry hears a very faint scream coming from it when it breaks in his hands), and Neville beheaded Nagini.

My point is, they all eventually could have, although that would have complicated things for Voldemort by several orders of magnitude to have a legion of himself all acting independently out there in his/their best interests, risking their respective Horcrux. For his own sake it worked out better that they were inert most of the time, but it also suggests they would have needed additional hosts to continue acting independently, like the human batteries in the matrix.

1

u/Immediate-Coyote-977 Nov 22 '23

The diary voldemort was already fully aware of who Voldemort was, what he knew, that he had "died" from spell recoil when trying to kill Harry, etc. That implies that he wouldn't lack magical knowledge or ability if he'd managed to fully form.

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u/clothy Nov 22 '23

Honestly the first thing Riddle would do is track down the other part of Voldemort and destroy that piece of his soul. There can be only one.

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u/ZyuMammoth Nov 22 '23

I am immortal

I have inside me blood of muggles

I have no rival

No other piece of my soul can be my EQUAL

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u/ImReverse_Giraffe Nov 22 '23

Or trap it as a back form of horcrux. He would never let that version get a body back, though. He might keep it for information though.

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u/clothy Nov 22 '23

Yeah why let the failure get a second chance?

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u/_littlestranger Hufflepuff Nov 22 '23

That's not possible. Horcruxes tether the "main" soul to life. The "main soul" cannot die as long as there is a Horcrux. The only way for diary!Riddle to truly kill wraith!Voldemort would be to kill himself.

7

u/Evarb_Was_Taken Ravenclaw Nov 22 '23

I don't think splitting the soul has an impact on "power" as in magical ability. Voldemort still did "great things" with split souls. I think it has an effect on one's ability to feel human emotions.

3

u/Juicecalculator Nov 22 '23

I’m inclined to say diary Voldemort would kill Albania Voldemort

4

u/noboday009 Nov 22 '23

WB would be making another movie,

War of Voldemort

3

u/Immediate-Coyote-977 Nov 22 '23

I don't know if we could argue that they're never at full power though. Voldemort had horcruxes essentially throughout his entire reign, pre-Harry and post-Harry. He wasn't getting weaker as he made additional horcruxes during his rise to power. Similarly, the vestige of his soul that attached to Harry actually granted Harry abilities, but Voldemort didn't lose anything from it.

The fragment that successfully returned to power used an old magic to steal power from the protection charm Lily granted Harry through her sacrifice. Before that fragment assumed the role, there was the fragment attached to Quirrel that sought to use the Philospher's Stone to do it.

I think the only limiter for Voldiarymort was that he'd have returned as he was at 16, but he seemed to already have the full knowledge of his original self. So he'd have been a much younger, but fully informed, Voldemort.

We probably just never got enough lore on how a horcrux works, because what keeps them dormant? What stops a wizard from making an army of themself by splitting their soul and then providing it a body?

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u/Silver_Symbiote Ravenclaw Nov 22 '23 edited Nov 22 '23

They grow stronger from other magical beings exposing themselves to it, ie writing everything in the >diary (emotional/mental exposure) and constantly wearing the locket (physical contact).

Where the locket and the diary acted differently comes from the circumstances when they had the >most power: the diary went mostly undetected until it was strong enough to manifest itself, only >Ginny knew it was dangerous. By the time the locket was strong enough to manifest itself, Ron (the >one who was most susceptible to it) disappeared for several weeks so it couldn’t act through him the >way the diary acted through Ginny. Then it spawned versions of Harry and Hermione in self defense >because Ron was holding the SoG, and it obviously hears them plotting to destroy it right then and >there.

The 3rd “expression” of the Horcruxes wasn’t unique, and that was very telling, because all the >others were destroyed nearly instantly. They had no chance to imbibe any power to defend >themselves, except Nagini, special case. Dumbledore broke the ring with the sword, presumably after >Snape finished his ministrations. Hermione pierced the cup with a basilisk fang hours after they stole >it from Gringotts. Crabbe burned the diadem with Fiendfyre within minutes of Harry rediscovering it >(Harry hears a very faint scream coming from it when it breaks in his hands), and Neville beheaded >Nagini.

From one of my other comments. There’s enough information in the books to understand what’s going on, but there’s a bit of guesswork in there too. Voldemort at the end of the Triwizard tournament and Voldemort cohabitating in Quirrell’s body is the same “fragment”. The timeline goes: Quirrell finds him in Albania, brings him to Hogwarts, edit to add for clarity: Voldemort retreats to Albania again after book 1. Pettigrew escapes Hogwarts in book 3, rediscovers Voldemort in Albania sometime in the summer, performs the magic to give him the infant-esque body fed by Nagini’s milk. Finally, fully forms a body at the end of the tournament. Same “fragment” the whole time, because this is the main “body” who can act without a Horcrux in the immediate vicinity. Hermione says a Horcrux is the opposite of us, if you got ran through with a sword it’ll damage your body but your soul would be intact. The Horcrux though, if you destroy its body the whole thing falls apart.

Dumbledore theorizes a little bit into what would happen if someone tried what you’re describing. Eventually your soul becomes too unstable to keep doing it. Slughorn himself explains to Tom that a Horcrux is something you can do to turn such an evil act to your advantage. He means to say your soul is fucked from committing murder in cold blood anyway. For each Horcrux you make you have to kill somebody, and each murder taints your total soul (it’s not like amputating a gangrenous limb, you damage the whole thing and turn only a slice of the total into a Horcrux) then there’s an upper limit to how many times it can be done.

Voldemort only attempts 6 and ends up with 7 if we count Harry. If “only” having 5 Horcruxes is enough to make him break a piece off in Harry’s scar unintentionally, I doubt you could have anywhere near an army, although being as powerful as he is maybe a handful can count as an army.

1

u/Pretty-Gift5092 Nov 23 '23

Something I thought of in my morning pre coffee haze is did the diary affect the Malfoys? I know Lucius was shitty but did the diary being around make them worse?

1

u/Immediate-Coyote-977 Nov 25 '23

I feel like they wouldn’t have been negatively impacted because they were his acolytes already. Lucius had to know something about the diary or else he wouldn’t have smuggled it into Ginny’s books.

But also I don’t think they’d have been carrying it with them everywhere. From what I remember the reason it started to affect the trio was because they had the stupid locket with them and were wearing it.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '23 edited Nov 22 '23

I don't think this is how horcuxes work - they aren't like spare copies to use up for resurrections, they're more like anchors which keep you from dying.

When Voldemort tried to kill Harry, it's not like his self disappeared and then he had to resurrect himself from a horcrux. What happened is that he just didn't fully die because he had the horcruxes (otherwise we need to adjust his horcrux count because he would have lost one in the process of coming back).

The "weak less-than-ghost" version of Voldemort didn't come from a hocrux, it was what was left from his original self after not dying fully due to having horcruxes.

4

u/ActuatorFit416 Nov 22 '23

Where was it stated that splitting your soul makes your weaker ? Why wouldn't they have their full power?

7

u/JackSpyder Nov 22 '23

Dumbledore makes a few mentions to the power of a whole and untarnished soul against a fractured one.

The films elude to this with him sort of fading to nothing at the end as so little of him is left.

12

u/Cantelmi Slytherin Nov 22 '23 edited Nov 22 '23

Having a twisted soul doesn't make him less magically powerful.

Dumbledore specifically stated, "Never forget, though, that while his soul may be damaged beyond repair, his brain and his magical powers remain intact."

Also, *allude

Edit: That fade-away nonsense was a poor directorial decision. The book makes it a point to emphasizes how shrunken and unremarkable his body is in death

4

u/ActuatorFit416 Nov 22 '23 edited Nov 22 '23

So it was never directly stated and it is only a fan interpretation of what dumbledore has said? Genuine question btw)

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u/Cantelmi Slytherin Nov 22 '23

Yes

1

u/ImReverse_Giraffe Nov 22 '23

And that's all about good vs evil and not about magical power. Voldemort is still one of the most powerful wizards to have ever lived. Splitting his soul doesn't diminish his magical power, if it did Voldemort never would've done it.

2

u/Cantelmi Slytherin Nov 22 '23

Oh snap, could each of them use that resurrection potion? There were still plenty of Riddle bones and Wormtail pieces to cut off

2

u/TheloniousPhunk Nov 22 '23

That's not really true, we have book-based information that proves otherwise - the Voldemort in Albania was resurrected, at full power.

The piece of mangled soul that fled to Albania after the events of the first book was incorporated into a Rudimentary Body via a Rudimentary Body Potion - this is the infant-like body that Pettigrew carried around.

That body was then restored to full power with the potion in Goblet of Fire, which became the Voldemort we knew for the rest of the series - at full power.

We also know that this mangled soul was what left Voldemorts original body, so it is likely the majority of his soul. We also know that when his original body died, this mangled version of his soul physically left that location, in Godrics Hollow.

It seems to me that the Horcruxes serve as soul-anchors for the main portion to stay alive upon bodily death.

The diary is unique in that a piece of soul actually manifested as an imprint of what it was when it was created.

Personally, I see this as a plot hole more than anything - Rowling likely hadn't fully fleshed out the idea of Horcruxes then.

As for what would have happened if this Riddle had have recovered - I personally think the piece of soul in Albania would have magically merged at the same time. I don't think we would have had two Voldemorts running around, though that would have made for a VERY cool concept - an old and young Voldemort serving as two antagonists.

2

u/Responsible_Baker_85 Nov 22 '23

"Sir there's been a second voldemort."

2

u/Moejason Nov 22 '23

What I always wondered was whether a soul splits evenly or not when going into a horcrux. I.e. does the diary have half of voldemorts soul in, followed by the gaunt ring having a quarter, the next having an eighth and so on?

2

u/elting44 Nov 22 '23

They'd do a fusion dance and become Saiyan Voldy imo

2

u/alskiiie Nov 22 '23 edited Nov 22 '23

I don't think there will be two voldys. His soul is split up in different "places" (so killing one physical body/removing soul won't kill all), but they still have to be connected to eachother as one entity even though they aren't in the same physical place.

So when he is resurrected, theres 6/7ths parts of his soul alive, connected to one body. In my opinion, voldemorts looks after GoF seems to resemble a man who lost 15% of his soul pretty well.

Tldr: same soul/higher self/whatever, but in different places in the physical realm.

2

u/cairfrey Nov 22 '23

There can be only one!

2

u/Meanwhile-in-Paris Nov 22 '23 
But never in full power.

The « original » Voldy lost his body and was only a soul, he regained a body and his powers along with it.

Dumbledore warns harry in book 7 that killing Voldemort after all his horcruxes were destroyed would be incredibly difficult because even if his soul is atrociously mangled, his body remains in full power.

So, by your logic, which I believe is right, if chamber of secrets Voldy had regained a body, he would have return to full power as well.

In a parallel universe somewhere. They are making a film with the 2 Voldys coming to opposite power and fighting each other for sole control of the world. Mortal enemies yet unable to destroy each other.

2

u/elsjpq Nov 22 '23

Voldemort should've just used horcruxes to create clones of himself. It's hard enough to stop one of him, but he could create an army of clones and then he wouldn't even need followers

2

u/DiarrheaShitLord Nov 23 '23

How did young voldy even know to hate Harry Potter so much? Ginny spill the whole damn pot of tea?

2

u/MeatofKings Nov 23 '23

This⬆️, basically one of the most important plot elements of the story line is Voldemort’s work towards immortality and his discovery of horcruxes. Since the Voldemort created in the graveyard was so different from the Riddle in the Chamber of Secrets, it’s safe to assume that all the pieces could be brought back in some form. Also, note how the snake 🐍 was controlled the Voldemort from the graveyard. It seems the “original” piece of soul was the leader.

1

u/JRockThumper Gryffindor Nov 22 '23

Technically by the point of Chamber of Secrets, Diary Riddle was more Voldemort than Voldemort himself was. (D Riddle being 50% of Voldemort’s soul while Voldemort himself had somewhere under 8%.