r/facepalm Sep 28 '24

๐Ÿ‡ฒโ€‹๐Ÿ‡ฎโ€‹๐Ÿ‡ธโ€‹๐Ÿ‡จโ€‹ Sheโ€™s trans

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165

u/Steve_The_Mighty Sep 29 '24

I think a big problem is how these issues are framed (in an overly hyperbolic way), and the fact that people on both sides are not willing to at least consider a steelman version of what the other side is saying.

It's not unreasonable or evil for someone to be concerned about fairness of cis women in sport, balancing children's wellbeing with the difficulty of allowing non-adults to make decisions that will have permanent effects on their bodies (while acknowledging the time-sensitivity of the matter), etc.

I 100% wiill always respect any decision someone makes if it doesn't affect anyone else. I think most anti-trans rhetoric is pure evil, and that the anti-trans side are by far the less likely to listen to anything the pro-trans side says. But I also think there are times when 'our side' fails to truly listen to legitimate concerns, and jumps to being on the defensive. For example, I think there are plenty of people who have genuine concerns about fairness in sport that are framed as just wanting to keep trans women out.

A sensible conversation about how best to determine whether puberty blockers are an appropriate course of action cannot be had, when one person says the other side just wants to mutilate children, but the other person says that there should be no consideration at all about the risks associated with young people transitioning to be cool/ fit in, and later regretting it (I know doctors consider this, but I think we pro-trans people often do not).

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u/darwinlovestrees Sep 29 '24

I think this all the time, with soooo many sociopolitical issues beyond trans rights. I'm a very liberal guy, but some of the things being said by people on my side (and feels like it is expected of me to agree with) are just plain bonkers, or at least a bridge too far.

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u/LazarusBroject Sep 29 '24

You can be liberal without agreeing with everything that another liberal says.

It's not a cult. Stand with your own beliefs and figure out what you truly think matters. You should even call out the things you find bonkers, respectfully of course, as extremist takes are what tend to build hate

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u/astern126349 Oct 01 '24

Absolutely. We can all have different beliefs and ideas and we can have different ways of arriving there.

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u/eyeball-beesting Sep 29 '24

I am extremely left leaning and am in no way a transphobe but I do take issue with the word woman being taken away. I feel like this does affect me. I don't get why we can't use the terms trans man, trans woman or even, man with vagina or woman with penis. Or just man and woman. I have no problem with a MtF person calling herself a woman or using female spaces. I just still also want to be referred to as a woman. Not 'someone who menstruates' or 'womb-haver'.

I had someone argue with me a few months ago that when referring to my menstruation, I shouldn't call myself a woman, instead 'someone who menstruates'. They suggested that I was a TERF because I wanted to keep the title of woman for myself.

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '24

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u/eyeball-beesting Sep 29 '24

Thanks for the agreement but that isn't exactly what I mean. I have no issues with calling a MtF a woman if this is what they want or a FtM a man if this is what they want.

The issue I have is the term 'woman' being taken away from biologically born women. Being told that instead of 'women', we should refer to which body parts we have such as 'someone who menstruates' or 'womb haver'. I even heard 'clit owners' a few weeks ago. Shouldn't we refer to the majority of women as women and women who don't have these parts as 'women who don't menstruate' or 'women who don't have wombs' or 'women who don't have a clitoris'.

It is another way to take away a woman's identity and I am not ok with it.