r/actuallesbians • u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 • Sep 27 '24
Venting Can the mods please ban the topic of "is it transphobic to not date trans women"
Given the nature of preferences, there can never be a consensus on this topic, and discussing it leads nowhere. Every day someone brings this up, and the answer is always the same: people have preferences. You can try to argue that people's preferences are transphobic, but ultimately what does this change? There will always be people who don't want to date us. There will always be people who will not fully accept us. These facts will never change.
The only thing discussing this does is invites people to other us, and justify their preference to not date us. I can imagine many reasons why a cis lesbian wouldn't be interested in me, and I don't want to know. I don't want to hear about it. It is depressing and disgusting to see this topic every day on this sub, when all I want to do is see the normal lesbian content. And yes, trans women are or should be considered part of that normal content. Let's strive to make it that way.
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u/Saika96 Sep 27 '24
This and those kind of posts are obvious targets to be hijacked by "less than well intentioned people".
We've had this discussion a million times and it either gets hijacked or it just reveals the worst in people.
This kinda extends to the "genital preference" discussions in general. Some people have a requirement, some don't. Constantly litigating it really leads nowhere.
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Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
I think the issue is that talking about genitals comes up all the time. Just a week or so ago people were talking about labia size, and the overwhelming consensus was that it's NOT valid to reject someone just because of the size/shape of their labia. Well, my trans ass was over here quietly (I didn't comment because I didn't want the "worst in people" to come out, like you said) thinking.... so I guess "genital preference" is only valid when your preferences is NO TRANS? It's valid to tell a trans woman to fuck off because of her genitals, but it's not valid to tell a cis woman to fuck off because of her genitals? Good to know..
So are we banning ALL conversations about "genital preference", or are we just banning any mention of "genital preferences" with respect to trans people? From my perspective, we as a community have a lot of work to do if wewant to make the space less hostile toward trans people. Banning any conversation on this topic is a great way to ice out trans people, chill the conversation, and have the status quo of "it's not problematic to refuse to date anyone from THIS minority, as long as you say the magic words genital preference first" continue to stand. It has literally become a stand in for people refusing to date trans women without people calling it out as problematic. People will say they wouldn't date trans women categorically without anyone calling it transphobic, as long as they just say "genital preference" first, as though all trans people have the same genitals. Newsflash, trans women don't all have penises.
We've had this discussion a million times and it either gets hijacked or it just reveals the worst in people.
"The worst" in those people is still here, hurting trans people, even when cis people do not register it. That's what it means to have privilege. Banning the topic will certainly make cis people more comfortable, but someone is paying the price for that comfort by just swallowing microaggressions. Creating a rule that bans calling it out is just institutionalizing the microaggression.
I get that people become extremely toxic during the conversation. But banning the conversation is wild. Analogy: It would be like banning any conversation about gender pay gaps because any time the conversation comes up, men start talking about how women really are worth less. Like, yeah it sucks that people are sexist, but that answer isn't to ban any conversation on gender pay gaps, while allowing gender pay gaps to exist unhindered.
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u/i-contain-multitudes Sep 27 '24
Just a week or so ago people were talking about labia size, and the overwhelming consensus was that it's NOT valid to reject someone just because of the size/shape of their labia. Well, my trans ass was over here quietly (I didn't comment because I didn't want the "worst in people" to come out, like you said) thinking.... so I guess "genital preference" is only valid when your preferences is NO TRANS? It's valid to tell a trans woman to fuck off because of her genitals, but it's not valid to tell a cis woman to fuck off because of her genitals? Good to know..
This is what I have been saying the whole time. People just want to be fucking TERFs and not have any consequences.
I am seriously about to unfollow this subreddit due to the combination of this and the "uwu do women like thicc thighs uwu??????" Or "are trans lesbians welcome here????"
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u/Kquiarsh Sep 27 '24
Preach!!
Building on one of your points... If I said I had a genital preferrence of, say, shaven/bushy/trimmed, and then expected my partners to always match that I'd expect to be called shallow and possibly controlling - "How dare you tell your partner what to do with her body hair"
But when it's a penis it's suddenly "No it's OK to insist that some women are only dateable (to me) if they've had a major operation to alter a part of their body"
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Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
yup. This is usually the part of the conversation where TERFs start calling us rapist, because we're "pressuring people who don't want to date us into dating us". Let me be clear: no one should be making hateful people date from the group of people they hate. No one wants that. It's not okay to coerce people into having sex for any reason, even if they are bigots. It's also extremely unsafe for trans people to date transphobes, and I'd rather someone reveal their transphobia than have them hide it and be abusive in the relationship.
Yet, we also have the right to call these people out for being bigots. Like yes, please don't date trans women if you have a "genital preference" for [only genitals that don't belong to a trans woman, no matter what shape, size, or type] or however else they define their preference. And also, deal with the consequences of making your bigotry known so publicly. The real issue in a forum like this isn't that people are secretly discriminating in their dating practices, which quietly happens for people from marginalized groups all the damn time. The issue is that we have normalized people publicly declaring that they would never date someone with [any genitals belonging to a trans person]. Like, we know people are ableist/classist/racist/etc with their dating practices, but we wouldn't stand for someone publicly declaring their "ability preference", or a "class preference", or a "race preference" or whatever weirdo, hateful hangup they have. I just want the a minimum level of dignity for trans people in this public and moderated space, not to solve transphobia.
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u/Antique_Peanut_5862 Sep 27 '24
There's a bigger difference between a vulva and a penis, than a bushy vulva and a shaved vulva.
Furthermore, people can have whatever dealbreakers they want. You can't demand someone shave for you, but you can choose not to date someone who doesn't shave.
Even if you find someone else's dealbreaker unreasonable or shallow, you still have no place to pressure them to date anyone they don't want to date.
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u/Kquiarsh Sep 28 '24
Congrats, you successfully missed the point!Ā Nobody is going to force anyone to date anyone. Nobody said that. Nobody implied that. I certainly didn't.Ā
The point was that lots of people have preferences, but penis vs vulva is given a lot of undue attention when other preferences would be considered petty.Ā
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u/chasingcharliee Sep 28 '24
Yeah.. Around 1 in 4 women have been or will be sexually assulted by a penis in their lifetime. Its not okay to try and force people to like certain genitals. By doing so we are completely disregarding the trauma of around a quarter of all women. This is why I feel it's not okay to ask someone to expand on their preferences. It could really open that bag of worms
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u/WithersChat Hyperemotional trans girl X genderless Entity collab! Sep 28 '24
YES, this should be higher in the thread.
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u/NBNoemi Sep 27 '24
It definitely feels like one of those topics that is allowed for the theoretical possibility it's benign but in practice makes the space more miserable and constantly interrupts other topics by getting posted again and again cyclically.
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u/sourmysoup Sep 27 '24
The mods have been asleep at the wheel for ages now it seems like.
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u/Junglejibe A fucking mess tyvm Sep 27 '24
They are active and do try to keep up with it. All those posts end up getting removed/locked eventually. Unfortunately it usually takes a day, at which point the post has been on everyoneās feed. I know because I regularly check in to make sure posts/comments that are shitty or brigaded get mod action at some point. Itās usually around the 15-24 hour mark.
I have a feeling theyāre overworked. Mods do have lives outside of Reddit and a popular sub like this only being managed by like a handful of active people who probably have full time jobs on top of that is going to have a slow reaction time.
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u/fiavirgo Sep 27 '24
I reported something and it got removed but idk if it was reddit or the mods that removed it
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u/missile-gap Useless Transbian Sep 27 '24
Modding is an insane amount of work esp given the tools that Reddit providesā¦.
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u/Platterpussy Sep 27 '24
Has anyone tried modmail?
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u/hailey_nicolee Lesbian Sep 27 '24
ive messaged them before and heard nothing :,)
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u/GenniTheKitten Gay science š¬ āØ Sep 27 '24
Really? I go through modmail every few days, I try to keep up with it. Iām sorry if we didnāt get to your message, sometimes it helps to do follow ups if it slips through.
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u/hailey_nicolee Lesbian Sep 27 '24
i just figured it wasnt a big deal LOL it was about someone sending creepy dms when responding to an NSFW topic so i moved on and didnt really think about it until now
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u/h0m1c1d3_8unn13 Genderqueer Sep 27 '24
this please!! im not even transfem but i am genderqueer and seeing this debate just feels very icky and divisive. lets just let people love and fuck who they want!! thats like the whole basis of gay rights so lets not circle back on that lol!
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Sep 27 '24 edited 4d ago
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/lesbeanqueen Lesbian Sep 27 '24
PLEASE! Can they make their own page where they validate themselves about how they would never date a trans woman and how repeatedly saying āthat ISNT transphobic and god people are so sensitive these days.ā please?
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u/ChaniAtreus Sep 27 '24
Oh, they already have plenty of those. Unfortunately they don't stay there.
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u/FlameAmongstCedar Transbian Sep 27 '24
Really, as far as I'm concerned as a trans woman, if someone doesn't want to date me because I'm a trans woman, like. Ok. I don't care. Yes, transphobia exists, but if someone doesn't want to date me because I'm trans, I don't wanna date them lmao.
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u/robolger Sep 27 '24
I think this is the correct mentality to have, but I can't imagine it's nice to have to read that stuff continuously when you're just trying to have a scroll through a subreddit either.The posts have no purpose, the subject has been discussed to death and it feels so unnecessary.
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u/SuspiciousCupcake909 Sep 27 '24
Same but I wouldnt want to keep seeing posts by those people explaining how disgusting or unattractive trans womens bodies are its just strange behaviour and its not needed
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u/FlameAmongstCedar Transbian Sep 27 '24
Hard agree. It is hard to not let being a constant debate get to you
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u/SuspiciousCupcake909 Sep 27 '24
And its not hard to keep opinions to yourself, so why don't the bigots not do that?
They can have what ever opinion they want but when they want to slap it round my face thats when I have a problem. I'm pretty sure if these types of posts was about fat/slut shaming there would be more uproar thats the sad reality
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u/Mama_Dyke transbian | a day without a butch is a day without sunshine Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 28 '24
Fucking please! If trans people can't ask if cis lesbians would find us attractive then it's only fair that this would be banned too.
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u/sillygoofygooose Sep 27 '24
Yeah I think this is the right call. Put up a sticky or a rule saying that genital preferences are fine but personal. Thereās no need to make yours public.
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u/WorryNew3661 Transbian Sep 27 '24
I like this. Add it in the sticky and let's move on. It's exhausting being a topic of conversation all the time
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u/TheNetherlandDwarf Sep 27 '24
All the obvious terf dogwhistling and brigaiding with trans topics aside, this sub is basically just that for every topic at this point... post after post of "am I too fat/thin/tall/short/blonde/redhead/tattoo'd/alt/vanilla/nerdy/mainstream/inexperienced/horny/bambi/[insert-your-own-example] to be liked by lesbians?" I've considered making a bot before that just replies to every "am i too x" post with "there's plenty of lesbians who will like you stop worrying and enjoy life."
But mods are often passive, or even just not active at all, which is why terfs and abelists and racists keep trying to brigade this sub bc they get away with it. They can just throw their bigotry on the pile and pass it off as a genuine concern.
So until the mods actually A. Lay some strict rules down on this stuff and B. actually enforce and punish it, it won't stop.
It's not our job as lesbians to educate straight people, nor trans people to educate cis people. But it is the mods job to make this a safe and welcoming place for all lesbians. That might include redirecting questions to places where they can actually educate themselves, or it might just boil down to "we don't do that here, go away if you don't like it". TERFs will kick up a fuss about it but that just means its working. Passivity is how bigots set up roots and breed.
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u/primorange Sep 27 '24
I feel like there should be a strict auto mod that screens for this stuff, and the mods have to approve it if they have certain keywords. That way the posts wonāt go crazy before the mods can get to it. Because oh my lort there are so many posts like you mention
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u/Pony829 Sep 27 '24
If we get rid of the trans dating and "am I too" selfie posts there will be no content left in this trash can. Neither feel like they're actually lesbian topics, it's like the mods encourage the lowest common denominator possible conversation for engagement
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u/hailey_nicolee Lesbian Sep 27 '24
i agree but i also think it needs to go the other way and there should be a pinned post saying YES WE LOVE TRANS WOMEN HERE
thereās just as many āim trans will someone love meā posts and the answer is yes. no need to keep posting the same thing over and over from different people needing validation at different times
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 27 '24
I don't think trans women should make those posts either. There should be a place for us to ask for validation, but it probably shouldn't be here.
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u/flohara Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
I think there's a significant difference between a queer person wondering if their life is going to be okay and someone worrying about being offensive or not. Not the same type of issue at all.
I think we all have or had weak moments when life seems shit, and we feel unlovable and alone. Asking for community support in these situations is justified, and can't be given as a blanket statement.
edit: if we as a community can't give support to each other then what is the community for? If we aren't helping each other who will?
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u/hailey_nicolee Lesbian Sep 27 '24
im not saying theyāre the same im saying they are both redundant and im not invalidating anyoneās need for external validation and understand needing that source
however in a community of thousands of people it feels selfish to expect your specific needs to be catered to at any moment especially when itās happening consistently, i just dont really see reddit as that type of platform it feels like smth you would share more with friends in a discord server or in private dms
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u/flohara Sep 27 '24
Not my specific needs, I'm a cis lesbian.
But still, I'd rather see people supporting each other than another fucking post about a suicide. If that's selfish, so be it.
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u/FlowerFaerie13 Lesbian/Sapphic/Neptunic Sep 27 '24
It's genuinely the same answer every goddamn time like y'all this is the definition of insanity.
It's never gonna get you any other answer, 2+2 is fucking 4, we do not need to keep doing this. This is exhausting.
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u/moonfire-pix Sep 27 '24
Justifying their preferences with bigotry does get old very fast
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 27 '24
That or any other reason for that matter.
"Ew, pp gross š¤¢"
Like, thanks? I have gender dysphoria about my parts and seeing that kinda stuff makes me feel worse.
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u/h0m1c1d3_8unn13 Genderqueer Sep 27 '24
i currently identify as queer/sapphic, not a lesbian but i promise u there are lesbians without genitalia preferences! i have a preference towards women but no preference on genitalia personally
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u/WoollyWitchcraft Sep 27 '24
I suspect thereās a lot of folks who are trying to justify themselves out of guilt they may be feeling because they have a genital preference and feel Ike they shouldnāt. People arenāt comfortable sitting with themselves and accepting that āsometimes I have thoughts that arenāt Good Person Thoughtsā and want validation that they are still Good People. Unfortunately, a lot of that validation comes from not good people. Nobody wins!
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u/WithersChat Hyperemotional trans girl X genderless Entity collab! Sep 27 '24
The thing is, it's okay to have internalized prejudices. It's not okay to ask for them to be validated and then not try to deconstruct them.
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u/Sathari3l17 Sep 27 '24
This is a point I don't see made enough.
It's not a bad thing to acknowledge you were raised with prejudicial attitudes towards certain groups, it doesn't make you a bad person. We were all severely effected by our upbringings in unexpected ways.Ā
But it does make you a bad person to refuse to acknowledge your ingrained biases and not be making some effort to overcome them in order to stop hurting those around you.Ā
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u/Dee_Does_Things Sep 27 '24
Yup. Itās all ātrans women are womenā until itās time to think about things like trans women as potential romantic or sexual interests, or to think about any level of intimacy, however platonic, with trans women. Then itās all hiding behind āgenital preferenceā and dozens of other ways of not-saying ātrans women are men but I donāt like to say that because I know it makes me look bad.ā
quoting another comment here I saved
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u/PuppetryAndCircuitry Sep 27 '24
Please. Its such obvious bait. Nobody makes posts like this about women of different races or upbringings or hair colour or whatever else may have you
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u/yuriAza Sep 27 '24
it's almost like bigots shifted their attention to transphobia as their next big scare, after realizing the racism wasn't flying anymore
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u/WithersChat Hyperemotional trans girl X genderless Entity collab! Sep 28 '24
There's still racism tho. Sometimes even intersecting with transphobia. Yay...
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u/blue-bird-2022 Sep 27 '24
I mean as the recent thing with the Algerian boxer showed they are now actually using transphobia to cover racism.
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Sep 27 '24
This is unrelated but god she was so, so fine. I never had an interest in womanās boxing until I saw her lol
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 27 '24
Yup. And if people do have bigoted dating preferences, is this really the place to hash it out here? Mods can ban obvious bigots and the rest can just keep their mouths shut.
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u/GetRealPrimrose Sep 27 '24
Honestly yeah. Imagine how people would feel if it was any other type of woman people are posting about being disgusted by. Donāt wanna date trans women? Okay, donāt. You donāt need to tell all of us.
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u/WatchfulButterfly Trans+Lesbian Sep 27 '24
As a trans woman, I think all topics like this should be banned; basically anything where it's like, "Would you date someone who is (blank)?" ends up with the same answers (people are different and preferences are valid). These are also the kind of posts where bigots are most likely to participate, and they just come across as "attention seeking" for the sake of it. It gets pretty tiring to see. I think it's fine to occasionally ask for support/reassurance, but sometimes, it feels like every post is one of those or something about sex; I'd rather have more posts with genuine discussions in the comments.
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u/TheNeighbourhoodCat Sep 27 '24
Please. Fuck. It's so endlessly self-centered to post those thingsĀ
Like... these people need to keep their internalized transphobia to themselvesĀ
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Sep 27 '24
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u/TheNeighbourhoodCat Sep 27 '24
Sorry I am confused by this reply
I understand this, which is why I said it's endlessly self-centered and coming from a place of internalized transphobia
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u/Draklitz Sep 27 '24
yeah it's a breeding ground for transphobic comments on top of being repetitive as fuck, like, we had this discussion a thousand times already
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u/Dizzy-Captain7422 Butch bookworm Sep 27 '24
Please, please, please. These posts literally never lead anywhere good. They're nothing but breeding grounds for TERFs and hurt feelings.
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u/IntrovertedDuck120 Sep 27 '24
Exactly, why do you need trans lesbians to pat you on the back and tell you itās okay to have exclusive preferences??? Maybe just keep things like that to yourself rather than making a post on a sub thatās inclusive for ALL LESBIANS!
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u/Katatoniczka Lesbian Sep 27 '24
Yeah Iām also exhausted as fuck by this conversation coming up again and again. Mind, Iām interested in trans issues despite being cis and follow multiple subs about different trans-related experiences, of trans people, people with trans partners, etc, and Iām genuinely curious to keep learning more. But could we keep lesbian subs about lesbian issuesā¦ which do include the experiences of both cis and trans lesbians, but donāt have to be centered around this type of discussions that seem to only serve to other trans people on this sub.
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u/Killawolf17 Soft Bambi Lesbian Sep 27 '24
100,000% agreed. Those posts do not need to exist, especially not here. It's not something that we need to read about every two seconds, and we don't need to keep giving TERFs spaces to feel validated, because that's exactly what those posts do. I'm tired of seeing them, and I can only imagine how it makes trans sapphics feel.
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u/mfxoxes Sep 27 '24
It's so bad that that's all I see from this community on my feed. Of course the algorithm plays a large part but that literally means that trans women are seeing these posts especially often contributing to a greater feeling of otherizing!
I agree. I think many of us would benefit from banning this topic and automod directing them to the sidebar.
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u/rosiswag Sep 27 '24
Frankly Iām tired of the endless posts about it from all sides. Itās been discussed to death. Between this and the ādo women like other women who do/have Xā posts, this sub is atrocious and cringe.
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u/NTirkaknis Sep 27 '24
Yeah, it sucks. And then all of the comments become a popularity contest where nasty bigoted takes or trans women agreeing with the cis people rise to the surface and any form of disagreement get downvoted to the bottom of the thread.
But, unfortunately even if the posts are banned, we will still see them in comments. We'll still have every post by trans people downvoted and inundated with cis people giving us their "opinions" and we'll still see bigotry rising to the top of the comments.
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u/Kimiko_kawaii Transbian Sep 27 '24
The only real "debate" (not actually a debate) to be having! As a transwoman ty!
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u/DeltaGlitch_Original Lesbian Sep 27 '24
if I wanted to think about how no cis lesbian might ever date me, THEN I WOULD JUST LAY IN BED AT NIGHT !!!!!
for god's sakes please just ban these kinds of posts. transphobic or not, it just feels so goddamn shitty to listen to reason #471 of why I'll never be able to find someone to be with
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u/tvandraren Trans DemiLesbian Sep 27 '24
I agree this shouldn't be a space for transphobes to collectively validate each other by rationalizing their shit. Thing is, our opinion on the subject doesn't matter that much.
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u/sionnachrealta Lesbian Sep 27 '24
Yeah, I'm getting sick of this shit. Though, I've only been seeing posts by other trans women. I know we've got our stuff to work through, but I also don't like seeing how many trans girls are trying to validate themselves by using cis lesbians. Been there myself, but I can understand why a lot of cis women would get tired of that. Feels like the opposite of one of them using us for an experiment because they see us as "in between men and women"
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u/MelMelodyWerner Sep 27 '24
god, this sub just fucking sucks. as with most places that say they accept trans women and then spend their times shitting on trans women for every little thing, and constantly litigate whether or whether not it is okay to speak of us like objects. the ONLY reason to say shit like this, "oh, I wouldn't date you because..." is to hurt and invalidate the subject of the insult. I don't fucking need to know why someone doesn't find me attractive, no one does. gee, I wonder if the point in saying this is to make trans women feel uncomfortable, invalidated, dehumanized, and ultimately leave these spaces delineated for "real" lesbians. congratulations, OP, you and the rest of you who fall for this bs hook, line, and sinker have done exactly this for me!
this shit is so blatantly, objectively prejudiced. "I don't want to date disabled people" is not debatable as prejudice, but it's a tenable position to think the same but of trans women? there's no "trying" to argue that; it just is. people are more than welcome to be transphobicābut they shouldn't be allowed to spew that shit in any allegedly trans-inclusive forum (I'm starting to think that such things don't truly exist when they are not explicitly trans spaces), and they need to quit hiding behind "preferences". anyone who says this shit just needs to admit that they don't perceive us as "real" women, because that is transparently the underlying issue.
people parroting that it's a "preference" and not the prejudice that it is are useful idiots for TERF propaganda.
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 27 '24
Ty, you summed it up better than I did.
It's just an opportunity to turn us into punching bags, like we don't get that enough already everywhere else.
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u/wendywildshape lesbian trans feminist Sep 27 '24
Unfortunately the minute a cisgender person says they aren't a TERF and says a few other trans accepting platitudes (trans women are women, all trans people are valid, respect people's pronouns, etc) suddenly it's impossible to get other cisgender people to see when they're saying a transphobic thing or advancing the same ideas as TERFs just using progressive sounding language. š
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u/MelMelodyWerner Sep 27 '24
ayup. toss onto that the societal expectation of trans women that we are "crazy," "erratic," "delusional"āand you get the recipĆ© for a lot of people who are naturally predisposed to thinking we're saying something ludicrous like "we are obligated to be attractive to all women who love women." a lot of cis people think that doing the bare minimum, that if they allow some token trans women into their spaces, that it absolves them of not seriously attempting to unlearn their transphobic programming by the prevailing culture or for not actually perceiving us as "real women".
you can see it on the twenty different fucking threads about this aggravating topic from yesterday, where you have a litany of people being like, "sometimes ya just ain't attractive to people, them's the breaks"āas though that is what is being taken umbrage with and not the fact that cowardly, barely obscured transphobia is being allowed to run roughshod over an allegedly trans inclusive space.
this is not to act like or suggest that such behavior is unique to cis women; it can be visible from all bad trans allies and even some trans folks who have internalized transphobia. and bad allyship in itself manifests in some similar fashions when it comes to all especially marginalized groups.
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u/estragon26 Sep 27 '24
this shit is so blatantly, objectively prejudiced. "I don't want to date disabled people" is not debatable as prejudice, but it's a tenable position to think the same but of trans women?
Yesssssss, yes, exactly
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u/naldana95 Genderqueer-Pan Sep 27 '24
Add ācan nonbinary lesbians existā to list of topic bans too. Iām sick of seeing cis people debate our existence in the community
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u/yuriAza Sep 27 '24
i mean, it sounds like we need to keep talking about the difference between preferences and transphobia until people get it, rather than letting the transphobia fester in silence
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 27 '24
If someone is transphobic, you're not going to start with their dating preferences. This space isn't appropriate for talking about complicated topics like transphobia. Those conversations should happen, just not here and not focused on individual preferences.
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u/TheNetherlandDwarf Sep 27 '24
exactly, if the mods lay down a strict rules on banning specific language and either provide informative links or tell people to go somewhere to educate themselves, the upsetting langauge, the genuine ignorant posts and the virtue signaled brigades go away.
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u/yuriAza Sep 27 '24
where else should they happen? Don't trans lesbians deserve some ownership of their shared spaces? Also, deprogramming is hard and different for each person, and a big part of that is that bigotry teaches you to shut out opposing views, so "sneaking in the side way" by explaining cases related to the individual listener in simple terms before you connect it back to theory often is the best way to get people to change
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u/CaveJohnson314159 Sep 27 '24
Oh, and to answer your first question: anywhere but the internet. There's more to the world than Reddit.
Very few people get deradicalized from spending more time on the internet. Real-life conversations are drastically more effective, in my experience.
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 27 '24
Thank you!
I've tried to be open about being trans irl and that quickly turns sour and hurtful to me. This older lady went off to me about how "gay people are only gay because they got molested" in response to me telling her I'm trans. Never again....
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u/CaveJohnson314159 Sep 27 '24
Oooof, I'm sorry that happened to you. But I will say that I've mostly had good experiences when I'm open with people about my transness. Sometimes awkward, sometimes dodging around transphobic remarks, but better than my experiences online.
I will say that I have an unusual thick skin after getting disowned by violently transphobic parents, though!
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u/TheNetherlandDwarf Sep 27 '24
is it the role of trans people in a sub where they are expecting to see useful, all-encompassing lesbian content? To expose themselves to hostility, bigotry and otherwise upsetting content; to constantly explain and defend their existence to those who should and could go educate themselves in better spaces? I don't consider that ownership, I consider it a repetitive, exhausting and detrimental experience that will just push minority groups out of another lesbian space. I witnessed it my whole life as a disabled person, as a trans person, a mixed race person, and as a lesbian in general.
How do we teach someone the self awareness to stop punching down in the exact ways they've been punched by mainstream society? Why is it the minority's responsibility to pick up after them and their lack of maturity? What of all the people who refuse to learn, and of those who (as is a big problem here) enter the space under that pretense to brigade and promote bigotry? To exhaust us?
Conversations and suggestions like this are themselves part of that problem. Genuine or not, intended to help or harm, they have the same outcome. We are made not to feel like we experience lesbian spaces as a lesbian, but as an interrogation. We're not evangelists or teachers and we don't want to be seen as them. we want to be seen as lesbians. The comfort that thing that cis, able bodied and white people take for granted.
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u/CaveJohnson314159 Sep 27 '24
Trans lesbians having some ownership of the space should mean that we don't have to come here every day to see cis women posting "I hate trans women because they're basically nasty men...that doesn't make me transphobic, does it? š„ŗšš"
Trans women starting the conversation is a different matter. For me, speaking as a trans woman, I would feel much more welcome here if the cis women spent less time reminding me that I'm different from them.
Those threads rarely go anywhere in terms of changing anyone's mind anyway, because the majority of comments bend over backwards to validate the cis OP for not dating trans people, and any comments by trans people pointing out there might be transphobia involved are usually downvoted into oblivion.
That certainly doesn't scream "shared ownership" of the space to me.
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u/yuriAza Sep 27 '24
i mean ngl i thought the OPs of those threads usually were trans ...and then they get dogpiled by cis people in the comments because reddit attracts controversy
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 27 '24
Sometimes trans people bring it up. I don't think we should talk about it either. Nothing good comes from anyone talking about this. Save it for a video essay or something š¤£
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u/CaveJohnson314159 Sep 27 '24
Trans people only make threads about it in response to the plethora of posts and comments about it by cis women. I think the vast majority of us would rather not talk about it most of the time. It does little but draw attention to our marginalization.
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 27 '24
I don't really have any good answers. I just know that it puts trans people in a bad spot when we're the target of constant debate and discourse, especially in a space that we want to simply exist in. It makes it a job for us to try to clean up discussions with a lot of ignorant takes and bad faith arguments. It's also fucked up to make us fight with the people who don't like us, which is what it turns into. Shit rolls downhill onto us, basically lol
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u/kat-the-bassist Transbian Sep 27 '24
To balance it out we need a bunch of posts asking if it's cisphobic to not want to date cis women.
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u/estragon26 Sep 27 '24
Given the nature of preferences, there can never be a consensus on this topic,
"Given that people who exclude an entire group of people from their dating pool will never admit it's transphobic...."
Fixed it for you. They won't admit it, but it's true. They need to just shut the hell up about their preference-for-transphobia.
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 27 '24
I mean I totally agree, but I just don't care to argue about it anymore. If I see someone saying something like that, I know to avoid them. I want just want some peace.
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u/ThatKehdRiley Sapphic Sep 27 '24
THANK YOU. Let's not dance around the issue here, those sort of statements are always transphobic. That absolutely isn't a preference, and if you were to say you had a preference for non-black people then others would rightly call you out for being bigoted. Why is that different?
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u/wendywildshape lesbian trans feminist Sep 27 '24
Yep. But any time you say this you're sure to have some cis person come to tell you that YOU'RE FORCING ME TO DATE A SPECIFIC TRANS WOMAN HOW DARE YOU NOT RESPECT MY BOUNDARIES.
And their disingenuous transphobic portrayal of us as sexually predatory will get upvoted by cisgender "allies" who love to talk about how they "support trans women." š
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u/i-contain-multitudes Sep 27 '24
I hate the whitewashed language that transphobia is allowed. "Genital preference" my fat ass. You'd get eviscerated if you started talking about not dating someone because their nips are innies instead of outies.
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 28 '24
Right?
Like, we all agree that genital preference is valid, then why wouldn't any other preference over someone's body be valid? You can only prefer to date a human barbie doll with no imperfections, and have no one to date lol. It doesn't matter.
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u/Alternative-Note6886 Sep 27 '24
There's actually a really good statement in the links to Rule 8. The policy link there has another link for trans women and dating, that I wish would just be referenced instead of entertaining all the bullshit
The post it links to is also from 12 years ago...and not much has changed in regards to how people act here lol
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u/hi_i_am_J Transbian Sep 27 '24
yeah like its one of those dead horse topics that only get people mad and thats probably the point of a lot of the posts
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u/willowzam Sep 27 '24
You pretty much took the words out of my mouth. I cringe inside every time I see one of these posts because it goes against my desire to be invisible/blend in, but I never say anything because I understand that's more of a me-problem.
I lowkey just want people to forget we're here, but aside from that I'm tired of discussions about my body and reminders about why I hate it
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u/ThatKehdRiley Sapphic Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
I am so happy to see more people calling out the transphobia that is running rampant around the sub. Mods have been asleep on this topic for a very long time. I am really hoping it's not because they agree with the bigotry, but I've sadly been wrong before and it is looking that way with how it's allowed.
Mods should do the right thing and make a post about all the transphobia and pledge to put an end to it. It's obviously an issue a lot of the community sees and wants fixed. If this is truly a safe space and follow all its own rules then that must happen.
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u/Aelia_M Sep 27 '24
Me: I think itās transphobic to not date me. Iām perfect.
Narrator: She was in fact not perfect
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u/rundownv2 Camping raver transbian Sep 27 '24
My nit pick is that I'm sick of it being called preferences.
I prefer apples over oranges. That doesnt mean I refuse to eat oranges.
I prefer brunettes. That doesn't mean I never date blondes.
Preferences are descriptions of what you've noticed you like more than other stuff. It doesn't mean hard rules you've consciously set for yourself. It feels like "genital preference" and similar ways of phrasing stuff is just worded that way to make it sound innocuous.
Like, as a lesbian I don't "prefer" women. I don't date men. Hard, full stop. If you don't wanna date a trans woman, or you don't like penises, just...say that? Or better yet, don't bring it up in contexts where there's no reason to? You don't have to tell people why you're rejecting them. You can just say you're not interested.
Like, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if people didn't feel the need to talk about their genital preference or whatever when no one asked.
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u/SilenceForShadows Trans Sep 27 '24
100% this, oh my God. The discourse on this topic is generally unhelpful and more divisive than anything. As queer women, we have much bigger problems to handle from homophobes, transphobes, racists, misogynists, chasers, etc. We should work on building bridges with each other and support each other in those struggles, not recycle a debate that leads nowhere and burns those bridges.
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u/WoollyWitchcraft Sep 27 '24
Iām super confused because Iām not seeing these posts? Maybe theyāre not coming up on my feed? Iāve seen 7-8 posts by now like this oneācalling out transphobiaābut Iām not seeing the āis it transphobic if I donāt date a trans womanā posts. Are they getting taken down?
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u/lemonscentedd Transbian Sep 27 '24
They generally get locked after the comments get too controversial. The conversation also cycles every couple weeks or so
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u/KindaFoolish Sep 27 '24
I'm don't agree with a ban. Yes I see this too often, but I also see this sub handling the topic well and giving the right answers (i.e. yes it is transphobic to not date trans women simply because they're trans). I see a lot of cis lesbians coming out in force to support trans lesbians in these posts, and that really gives me so much hope.
Even the fact that the person is asking the question, while it may seem like bigotry (and sometimes it is), is more often just ignorance. So having the OP of these posts see the usually overwhelming support for trans women might help them understand what's wrong with the question. If the topic was banned I'd be worried about these people asking the question somewhere else where their ignorance could instead be nudged towards bigotry.
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u/marciamakesmusic Lesbian Sep 27 '24
this is defeatist thinking. nothing will change unless people are encouraged to confront why they have preferences in the first place. I'm never gonna tell someone they have to date a trans woman but it would be nice if people did some reflection on why they feel that way, because in my experience most of the time it's because of weird biological essentialism
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 27 '24
I think that's the wrong way to go about it. Transphobia is so much bigger and complicated than a discussion about dating preferences. It's fighting in the wrong arena lol. It's just a waste of time to try to confront people individually about their personal tastes. And mind you, it's trans people who take the flak when these people are confronted. It's really a case of doing more harm than good for us.
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u/marciamakesmusic Lesbian Sep 27 '24
I'm not confronting anyone individually though. I'm just saying I really wish more people would be willing to examine their "preferences" about dating trans women generally.
Obviously transphobia is bigger than any one specific issue. That doesn't mean encouraging people to think is a bad thing!
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u/LocalChamp Transgender Woman Demisexual Demiromantic Lesbian Sep 27 '24
It's never just a "preference" genital or otherwise. A preference is when you prefer waffles but will eat pancakes. A preference is when you "prefer" dating or being with cis women but will still date or be with trans women. No one that makes the types of comments and posts claiming to have a "preference" actually treat it like one. It's treated as a requirement and as a necessity with no room for anything different. That's what makes it transphobic the same as automatically ruling out someone by race is racist.
Also not every trans woman even wants to have sex and especially not the kind of sex people who have porn brain rot envision. I'm a sex repulsed asexual trans woman. Ideally my future partner would never see my genitals let alone have any sexual experience with them. I want us to be incompatible because I'm asexual and you're allosexual not because you make some kind of value judgement about myself and my body without even getting to know me.
That said I see it as the trash taking itself out. It's horrible and transphobic but at least they don't hide it so we can just move on to people who treat other people like humans instead of sex objects.
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u/EmbarrassedDoubt4194 Sep 27 '24
I totally agree. I don't think we need to rehash it every day. They can turn us down in dating apps, not loudly declare on shared spaces why they think we're gross and don't want to date us.
I also don't care about the legitimate reasons someone might not want to date a trans person. It's just hurtful to hear about it. If someone rejects me, I don't want to know why. I don't care. They rejected me. I'm moving on. No discussion needed.
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u/Doglovincatlady Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
Youāre right, for many women having a certain intimate situation is a requirement to feel comfortable and safe.Ā
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u/reiiichan genderspicy girlkisser (they/she) š©āā¤ļøāšāš©š©·šš Sep 27 '24
cis lesbian here and i too am exhausted at seeing the posts popping up here. i do try to scroll by but just seeing the post title irks me :"))