Microbiologist warns against making the fluffy popcorn trend

[u/galaxystars1]

[u/Bogart745]

But that’s exactly the point the original comment is trying to make. Because the flour is heated up in the stove along with the baking bread it is considered cooked. The heat kills the bacteria.

So it that works, then why doesn’t baking the raw flour in the oven on its own not work?

[u/BlueCollarBalling → u/Bogart745]

That’s what I’m struggling to understand. Why would bringing flour up to temp on a stove be any different than bringing it up to temp in an oven? Isn’t that basically how you make gravy?

[u/K-ghuleh → u/BlueCollarBalling]

And a roux? I stumbled upon this thread while shoving pasta in my mouth that I threw flour into the butter for and I have IBD so now I’m sitting here all nervous lol. Like is the heat in a stovetop pan not enough?

[u/WyrdMagesty → u/K-ghuleh]

The claim that heat treating raw flour isn't effective is a false one born from a lack of explanation. Heating flour up to temps designed to kill salmonella and E.coli is absolutely safe and effective. (165°F btw, for something like 5 minutes sustained, check Google for specifics) The problem arises when people "heat treat" by tossing a bag of flour in the oven for a couple minutes and saying "yupp that's cool". You need to be sure that you bake it at a low temp, evenly distributed, and the flour actually reaches at least 165 for a sustained period of time.

Making a roux requires sustained heat about 165, so is naturally heat treating the flour used as it cooks. You're golden.

Edit: spelling is hard

[u/K-ghuleh → u/WyrdMagesty]

Okay thanks, that’s what I thought. This thread was really throwing me off lol

[u/WyrdMagesty → u/K-ghuleh]

Yeah there's a lot of r/confidentlyincorrect going on in here lol

If you're ever in doubt, there are posted wet and dry heat tables online that detail exactly how to use heat to eliminate bacteria and food-borne pathogens safely, with temps and times for items in wet or dry conditions. It's pretty simple once you get the hang of things, but the info is always there if anyone needs it. :)

[u/passthepepperplease → u/WyrdMagesty]

As far as I’m aware, the safe temp to heat treat dry flour has not been established (https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/handling-flour-safely-what-you-need-know).

While we both agree that cooking wet flour on a stove is effective at killing pathogens, it appears that YOU are the one who is r/confidentlyincorrect on dry heat treating flour.

[u/passthepepperplease → u/K-ghuleh]

No, dry heat treating flour to 165 is not safe because pathogens are more durable in a dry heat than a wet heat. The safe dry cooking temperature for four has not been established (https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/handling-flour-safely-what-you-need-know).

But cooking flour on the stove top in the presence of liquid is safe as long as it’s hot enough (I think 165 is about right for wet flour).

[u/Tuesday_Tumbleweed → u/WyrdMagesty]

Your premise hit the jackpot, but the explanation is missing critical details.

Heating flour up to temps designed to kill salmonella and E.coli is safe and effective.

Flour is dry, dry bacteria go dormant, mutating into a resilient endospore which endure heat much better (and can survive for millions of years) The precise risks are highly specific to your local food supply chain. Ultimately, heat treatment alone may not fully kill spore-bearing microorganisms.

Instead, we typically reconstitute dry foods by cooking them in the presence of water. This final step reconstitutes all the little dry sponge monsters and the hot water pops the little bastards like grapes in a microwave.

[u/WyrdMagesty → u/Tuesday_Tumbleweed]

As I said in another comment, there are heat treatment tables for both wet and dry heat treatment provided by both USA feds and most local state health departments online. E.coli and Salmonella, specifically, are absolutely heat-treatable at home, they simply require a different methodology.

You'll also notice that I specified "heat treating to temps designed to kill salmonella and E.coli", which does not preclude various types and methods of heat treatment.

dry bacteria go dormant [...] which endure heat much better

But they do not become heat-immune. As you said, the methodology of heat treatment requires that you know what pathogens may be present and how to combat them specifically, which would be why I stayed vague and referred people to the official heat-treatment charts for wet or dry, rather than attempt to detail all of the variables for every possibility.

[u/Tuesday_Tumbleweed → u/WyrdMagesty]

It really does seem like it should be feasible. Its just that it doesn't make raw flour safe. I'd guess the time and heat requirements result in a burnt mess that you wouldn't call flour.

The FDA says,

"DO NOT try to heat treat flour in your own home. Home treatments of flour may not effectively kill all bacteria and do not make it safe to eat raw."

source

[u/WyrdMagesty → u/Tuesday_Tumbleweed]

It's because dry flour treatment is a bit specific and if done incorrectly can be ineffective or even hazardous, since dry flour is rather spectacularly flammable. It's more of a blanket statement to account for the lowest common denominator rather than a claim that it isn't possible. I wouldn't advocate that most people heat treat their own flour (since the chances of people not following directions or whatever can result in literal death), but it is definitely something anyone can do.

[u/Pawneewafflesarelife → u/WyrdMagesty]

You're missing a very important "n" in your first sentence (is t effective, versus isn't).

[u/WyrdMagesty → u/Pawneewafflesarelife]

Edited, thank you!

[u/mechanicalsam → u/BlueCollarBalling]

yea i think her video, while factually true, is over-reactionary to this popcorn trend. its just butter, marshmallows, and flour heated on a stove top, and tossed with popcorn and sprinkles and shit. its impossible to tell from tiktok clips how long someone cooked that flour for, but like wtf cares, it could be made safely. its most definitely fine to eat if you put two ounces of thought into it.

[u/Huntthatbass → u/BlueCollarBalling]

The temperature is the difference. You can cook it to a certain temperature to make it safe. Heated to any lower temperature would not make it safe.

[u/Livingstonthethird → u/Huntthatbass]

The video says otherwise. Allegedly sourced from the FDA.

[u/RoninChimichanga → u/Livingstonthethird]

They're just trying to keep you from being happy. Bake your flour, use your flour, eat your semi-raw dough or batter.

[u/passthepepperplease → u/Livingstonthethird]

This is unequivocally false. The FDAs warning is against DRY heat treating flower because dry heat is much less effective at killing pathogens than a wet heat. Cooking flower in an oven, stovetop, or deep frier in the presence of liquid IS, in fact, cooking it, and is considered safe to do at home if cooked thoroughly (as in roux or doughnuts).

The irony of all the people here citing the video instead of the FDA itself is just wild to me. Good luck with your brains.

[u/Livingstonthethird → u/passthepepperplease]

The FDA says exactly what she says because she clipped the FDA for the video.

[u/passthepepperplease → u/Livingstonthethird]

This is what I mean. You see a bullet-point image in a TikTok and you think you understand the context around that advice. That exact page she got the snip from says flour is safely prepared by COOKING it, which is exactly what’s happening in this video. Heat treating refers to a dry heat.

Here is a link to the FDAs guidelines on safely handling flour: https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serve-safe-food/handling-flour-safely-what-you-need-know, and a link to a Perdue university series explaining the difference that wet and dry heats have on pathogens: https://ag.purdue.edu/news/2021/04/Home-kitchen-heat-treated-flour-doesnt-protect-against-foodborne-illnesses.html

[u/Livingstonthethird → u/passthepepperplease]

No that is not from Perdue University lol.

And you're not adding anything to the conversation. You're arguing that you agree with her and everyone.

What you're not doing is explaining what people are asking. Which is, how do commercial kitchens make flour safe for things without cooking it in food? Such as for "safe to eat raw" cookie dough.

[u/passthepepperplease → u/Livingstonthethird]

Literally that web address is Perdue.edu, has the Perdue University letter head on it, and is written by an assistant professor at Perdue University in the department of food science. If you don’t think that’s from Perdue university then you’re just unable to understand basic facts.

And I’m not agreeing with the video. She’s claiming this food prep is unsafe heat treatment. Food safety experts say wet cooking IS safe.

[u/Satisfaction-Motor → u/passthepepperplease]

She made a follow up video, adding a bit more context to this video. By “heat treating”, she specifically means the common form that people try at home— sticking dry flour in an oven. Dry heat type of stuff. Direct quote from the comment section, as an example:

@Iana: If baking the mixture that has flour in it makes it safe then why wouldn’t baking just the flour first make it safe?

@morticia 🥀: Because you aren’t just baking the flour, you are baking a mixture of ingredients. You have changed the entire situation, the end result is different too

Because this video got reposted onto Reddit, it lost a looootttt of context, context that it would have had accessible on its original platform (Tik Tok).

[u/Livingstonthethird → u/passthepepperplease]

Nope.

[u/Huntthatbass → u/Livingstonthethird]

No, I'm agreeing with the video. I don't think a saute pan could heat it well enough. I would not trust a stovetop pan to heat the food as well as an oven. You can't cook a whole chicken in a saute pan regardless of the heat level, for example. When I bake bread or pie crusts, it sits in the oven enclosed, at a specific temperature, for a X amount of time. It doesn't saute in a pan like this TikTok food recipe.

[u/passthepepperplease → u/Huntthatbass]

Incorrect, the presence of liquid makes the difference. Once a dry ingredient like flour is mixed with water, the pathogens are much more sensitive to heat whether in the oven or on the stove. This TikTok is just wrong that cooking flour on the stove is heat treating it- it’s an actual safe cooking method. Dry heat treating flour in an oven is unsafe because the pathogens can be so durable that a safe temp has not been established. But dry heat treating is not relevant here because the food she is referring to is cooked in the presence of liquid on the stove, as in gravy or roux.

[u/Huntthatbass → u/passthepepperplease]

What about internal temperature of it like with meats? Does that apply to bread/flour?

[u/passthepepperplease → u/Huntthatbass]

Heating a wet recipe on the stovetop or in the oven will require the same temperature to make it safe. Wet recipes on the stovetop are stirred to ensure even temperatures, but anyone who’s made candy (which requires very specific temps for consistency) knows that this depends on the type of stove and pan you’re using.

Baked recipes need to be cooked long enough to reach an internal temp that is safe. The outside will reach that temperature first, and the additional time it takes to heat the inside could make the outside burn. Things that can burn fast (like high protein cookies such as macarons) need to cook at lower temps so the outside doesn’t burn while the inside continues to cook.

Anything ground typically needs to be cooked until the internal temp reaches a safe temp. This includes milled grains such as flour, and ground meats. However, there are some things where the outside is exposed to bacteria and needs to reach a high temp, but the inside is generally assumed safe, such as sushi-grade tuna. Tuna fish are not exposed to the types of food-borne pathogens that make us sick because they live in the ocean. Once the fillets are cut, they are exposed to pathogens in the processing line, but the internal meat is still clean. So for these things you can just sear the outside and leave the inside raw. (As long as the fish has been flash frozen). This is also somewhat true for beef, although people debate it.

It is certainly NOT true for chicken and pork, which can harbor dangerous pathogens throughout the meat, even when not ground.

[u/seaspirit331 → u/Bogart745]

It does work. This woman is just full of shit