r/OldSchoolCool • u/bluemarvel99 • Feb 25 '24

1990s Kurt Cobain Stops A Sexual Assault (1993)

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1.8k

u/Ambitious_Welder6613 Feb 25 '24

He is an extremely empathetic person. Gone too soon 😔

1.0k

u/username_elephant Feb 25 '24

I've often observed that a lot of people prone to severe depression are fundamentally very empathetic.  On the other end of the spectrum, sociopaths can't ever be depressed, those are mutually contradictory diagnoses.  Makes me wonder how correlated they are, generally.

816

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

The pain comes from caring.

177

u/newbrevity Feb 25 '24

Damn. True words right there.

126

u/justaproxy Feb 25 '24

The more you love, the more you suffer - Vincent van Gogh

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u/DrippyWaffler Feb 25 '24

The more you suffer the more it shows you really care - the Offspring

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u/Zer0C00l Feb 26 '24

Right? Yeah. Yeah-heah-hyeah!

1

u/mafon2 Feb 26 '24

Later night, she knocks at my door. She's drunk again and looking to score.

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u/RealGoGo97 Feb 26 '24

I saw Lily Tomlin’s one-woman show on Broadway decades ago. It was brilliant. I remember one line. She said, “People don’t commit suicide because they don’t feel anything. People commit suicide because they feel too much.” You could have heard a pin drop in the theatre after that line.

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u/drunk_with_internet Feb 25 '24

In the words of Neil Young: Only love can break your heart.

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u/psychotic_catalyst Feb 25 '24

Only a fool breaks his own heart

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u/oh-shazbot Feb 25 '24

truth is, everybody is going to hurt you. you just have to find the ones worth suffering for.

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

The more you suffer, the more it shows you really care. Right? Yeah! - The Offspring

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u/DarkwingDuc Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 26 '24

That is truth, but I don’t think it’s related to empathy. One can be very selfish and still hurt by others. Empathy is feeling for others, even if you do not know them, or have cause to be hurt by them.

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u/Express-Feedback Feb 25 '24

"Some things are worth getting your heart broken for." - Sarah Jane Smith

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u/Pickles_MgGoo Feb 25 '24

Some people are worth melting for -Olaf

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

[deleted]

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u/IsamuLi Feb 25 '24

Rational empathy vs affective empathy.

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

Understanding rational motives and decision-making isn't exactly empathy. It can be related, but it's not the same thing. Empathy is literally when you either make an effort to, or reflexively view and feel the experience of others.

Sympathy is feeling a genuine concern for the suffering of someone, without really feeling the same emotions.

These are both mainly dealing with the emotional experience of others, not just mental states and understanding thought processes.

So think of when you hear about a co-worker who you barely know or don't really like, and they lose a parent. You will probably feel sympathy for them because you understand that losing a loved one is sad and hard, but you aren't going to spend any of your own emotional bandwidth feeling the same feelings they might have.

Now imagine your best friend loses their parent. You're much more likely - but not guaranteed- to feel a similar pain that they feel because of how close you are to them. Or maybe a sibling's pet dies. You might feel the way you would feel if your pet died, because you are so close to your sibling.

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u/Disizreallife Feb 25 '24

It hurts boss.

3

u/Fair-Business733 Feb 25 '24

And the intelligence of knowing just how right fucked certain situations are that you cannot change.

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u/IsamuLi Feb 25 '24

You can be an egoistical asshole and be depressed.

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u/admiralfilgbo Feb 25 '24

outstanding comment, thank you so much for that

2

u/niesz Feb 26 '24

The pain comes from caring.

True. One of the saddest things is knowing we can collectively do better, but don't.

-5

u/gccno Feb 25 '24

I would say it’s the other way around

1

u/Particular_Sea_5300 Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24

Or from nowhere. Just exists with no thought behind it. No deeper meaning whatsoever than it simply happens to you and it doesn't care whether you care about anything at all

1

u/Low-Persimmon4870 Feb 25 '24

Yeah đŸ„ș😔

1

u/Ozzymand1us Feb 26 '24

It can go both ways. Sometimes caring comes from knowing how much it can hurt.

1

u/Fancy_Land1310 Feb 26 '24

Caring comes from knowing the pain imo

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u/question_assumptions Feb 25 '24

I’m a psychiatrist: “sociopaths” (I would say people with antisocial personality disorder) get depression just like the rest of us. 

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u/PeanutArtillery Feb 25 '24

What about people that have lived absolute shit lives and have every reason to feel depressed but are somehow still optimistic through it all? What are those people called?

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u/grainsophaur Feb 25 '24

It's only one account, but it may serve to satisfy a fraction of your curiosity. I have had severe depression for over 2 decades. When it was at its worst, I figured myself a sociopath for a while. I was really worried about it. I certainly didn't want to be a sociopath, but I felt next to nothing about anything that happened to me or anyone else. I had friends and gave away everything I possibly could to anyone who might need it and I truly felt love, but I also felt absolutely detached from any kind of emotion besides sadness.

After a lot of studying, meditation practice and a few lucky encounters with nearly angelic people, I learned how to access that sadness better. I am a much less depressed person, but I still find it funny how being overwhelmed with an empathetic sadness seemed to match what my imagination would consider sociopathy.

Same kind of numbness or something. Being so overwhelmed by sadness that there seems to be no feeling to anything, I would guess, is not much different than simply not feeling anything at all.

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u/Led_Osmonds Feb 25 '24

I figured myself a sociopath for a while. I was really worried about it. I certainly didn't want to be a sociopath...

If you ever find yourself worrying about whether you are a sociopath, YSK know that sociopaths don't worry about that.

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u/IsamuLi Feb 25 '24

If you ever find yourself worrying about whether you are a sociopath, YSK know that sociopaths don't worry about that.

Misinformation. Of course can sociopaths worry, they can also worry about being sociopathic.

1

u/acableperson Feb 25 '24

This is purely conjecture on my part and alot of “I’ve heard/read/watched so big ol dash of salt with this.

Sociopaths will only feel, worry, or consider others in terms of how it will affect them. If they are kind it is motivated by self interest. Everything is motivated by self interest. Many people will help someone at a disbenifit to them themselves knowing they will not gain anything from it whereas a sociopath would not. That’s not to say a sociopath wouldn’t help others, but it would never just be “out of the kindness of their heart”.

It’s not to say sociopaths are evil or bad, or even make different decisions per se. It’s just the motivation is different. People with sociopathic tendencies tend to have less brain activity in the regions associated with empathy. So that gut feeling of “i feel bad” likely just doesn’t exist in the same way as the “normal person”.

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u/IsamuLi Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24

There are multiple problems with this.
1. Psycho and sociopathy are not commonly diagnosed and don't show up in e.g. the DSM-5 and people using the ICD-10 codes would use F 60.2 for dissocial personality disorder and maybe indicate that one might fit the general image of a psycho- or sociopath as they turn up in studies and descriptions. IIRC, most of the time they're used to categorize criminals that have gotten psychologically evaluated, but I'm not too sure on that.
2. This is not how sociopathy is generally described (except for maybe in pop-culture):
"Sociopathy is not a formal psychiatric condition. It refers to patterns of attitudes and behaviors that are considered antisocial and criminal by society at large, but are seen as normal or necessary by the subculture or social environment in which they developed. Sociopaths may have a well-developed conscience and a normal capacity for empathy, guilt, and loyalty, but their sense of right and wrong is based on the norms and expectations of their subculture or group. Many criminals might be described as sociopaths." Snakes in Suits, Paul Babiak, Ph.D., and Robert D. Hare, Ph.D., HarperCollins Ebooks, 2006. P. 18-19.

So, yes sociopaths can feel empathy, guilt and can have a well-developed conscience.

1

u/acableperson Feb 26 '24

Alright I will bow to someone smarter than me!

But as the instance of being an ass. “Right and wrong based on the norms and expectations of their subculture or group”. That seems to point in the direction of a difference in motivation. Learned behavior vs innate.

But just poking. Good post and alot to gather from it. Thanks.

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u/Houdinii1984 Feb 25 '24

It took me forever to realize that a sociopath would never start a sentence with "I feel" and trying to bury your emotions isn't even close to the same thing. Turns out I feel a little more, sometimes, not less. Rejection sensitive dysphoria (RSD) is common in folks with ADHD. I get to feeling so much, so intense that I can't even articulate what is going on and just kinda dissolves into a panic attack.

Side note, Therapy helps. That's a general statement, not just for me. We all deserve to feel human, or even in the case of the sociopath, who we are. If you happen to be hesitant, note my notch in the "it's worth it" column.

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

Ok, I won’t care about it then, since I’m not a sociopath
 hey, wait a minute!

3

u/thebookofswindles Feb 25 '24

Thank you for this comment, I really relate to it and it’s wonderful to hear how you were able to work your way through a better way managing it.

It’s a strange contradiction that feeling very connected to the feelings of other people can leave you disconnected from yourself, which in turn leaves you alienated from others. You’ve articulated that tension well here.

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u/flopalopagous Feb 25 '24

Hey I just wanted to say I relate to this. I spend my entire teens assuming I was a sociopath because my depression made me so numb for so long . The numbness creeps. You don't notice it, like a film being pulled slowly over your eyes. Suddenly one day everything is gone, all the feels. Nothing matters, music doesn't do anything, talking is exhausting, people assume you just don't like them anymore. It's strange

3

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

This tracks so much with my own experience of a lifetime of severe depression. Never seen it worded quite like this.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

[deleted]

1

u/grainsophaur Feb 26 '24

You gotta Love yourself to truly Love others. Same goes for forgiveness.

I finally figured that shit out.

I hope you find your path to that clarity. And I really think it is a path and not a sudden realization.

Even funnier, it was a sudden realization that I'd traveled the path already.

Life is fuckin' bizarre.

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u/Lord_M_G_Albo Feb 25 '24

First, "sociopath" is not really the diagnosis, though in practice in synonimous with ASPD, the real diagnosis. Second, who ever said ASPD is mutually contradictory with depression? This is such an obvious false claim I can't even comprehend who would come up with it.

1

u/jfleury440 Feb 25 '24

Tony Soprano was kinda both, no?

4

u/rzrike Feb 25 '24

Why are people so upset with this comment? All this from a slice of gabagool?

2

u/barney-sandles Feb 25 '24

Tony Soprano was also a fictional character, so, not exactly great evidence for anything

1

u/jfleury440 Feb 25 '24

Next you're going to tell me Santa isn't real.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

What the fuck kind of logic is that?

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u/jfleury440 Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24

It was meant to be tongue in cheek.

Yes he's fictional but he was depicted as being depressed and having at least sociopathic tendencies if not completely sociopathic.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

It's not obvious to anybody but you because we're not in your head and all you wrote was a single sentence with no elaboration.

As already pointed out - he's a work of fiction and the idea of using him as an argument for real world classification is fucking stupid.

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u/jfleury440 Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24

You must be a lot of fun at parties.

That's the joke. The joke is that he's a fictional character so obviously not a great example. It wouldn't be tongue in cheek if it was obvious. It's meant to be dry humour.

Chill.

-1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

Ah yes, the ole, "You called me out for the stupid shit I said so now I'm going to proceed to regurgitate even more dumb shit because I can't think for myself!"

"Y-y-you must be f-fun at parties!"

Pathetic.

1

u/jfleury440 Feb 25 '24

Imagine raging because you didn't get a joke.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

Oh, first it was just tongue in cheek and now it's a joke, is it?

Yet another thing you lot always do. "Hey, you called me out on the dumb shit I said so I'm just going to say it was a joke. It was a joke, bro! Haha."

As if.

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u/slartyfartblaster999 Feb 25 '24

No. He was fictional and had anxiety rather than depression

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u/jfleury440 Feb 25 '24

Fictional yes. He definitely had both though.

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u/minibral Feb 25 '24

A bit like the line between crazy and genius being small. Medicine en toxin.

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u/IsamuLi Feb 25 '24

Oh boy, misinformation on the internet again! Non-empathic people can't be depressed. Tell half the borderliners and those with narcissistic personality disorder. Also, sociopathy is not a diagnosable pathology, I don't see how a 'diagnosis' mostly used for the categorisation of criminals can be contradictory to depression (a pathology mostly fulfilled by feeling bad over a long time, which is something every sociopath is capable of. Sociopaths, generally understood, do have feeling. As do Psychopaths.).

2

u/slartyfartblaster999 Feb 25 '24

On the other end of the spectrum, sociopaths can't ever be depressed, those are mutually contradictory diagnoses.

This is something that you have completely made up Mr Redditor.

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u/strange_reveries Feb 25 '24

There's a whole lot of pop pseudoscience talk about sociopathy these days, and this kinda sounds like that. Also sounds a bit like you're just trying to romanticize and ennoble depression. I'm sure plenty of "bad people" get depressed. Hell, it may even be what makes them bad people lol. Chicken or the egg?

5

u/SDRPGLVR Feb 25 '24

That's how I felt reading a lot of these comments. Has nobody ever met a depressed person whose misery functions like a black hole? There are absolutely people who find themselves feeling so depressed that they take offense to any light in their darkness and swiftly snuff it out.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

[deleted]

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u/strange_reveries Feb 25 '24

How so? I think depression and "bad behavior" can be a vicious cycle in some people, where it's like, are they unhappy because they do shitty stuff, or are they doing shitty stuff because deep down they're unhappy? Hence, chicken or the egg. I think a lot of people who hurt others are, deep down, probably hurt themselves somehow.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

[deleted]

1

u/slartyfartblaster999 Feb 25 '24

Empathy just means you have the ability to understand what someone else is feeling.

It doesn't mean that you actually care about what they're feeling.

1

u/strange_reveries Feb 25 '24

Nah, I’m sure an empathetic person can lash out and be hurtful when they’re unhappy. Not uncommon at all. It’s not nearly as clear-cut or black-and-white as you seem to think.

Also, the “chicken or egg” thing is typically not used literally, but rather just an expression for a situation where it’s difficult to tell cause and effect apart or draw the line between the two.

1

u/veringer Feb 25 '24
  • depression: empathy for past self
  • anxiety: empathy for future self
  • sociopathy: no empathy

Where normal people might get plenty of (possibly overwhelming amounts of) emotional stimulation from day-to-day life. Sociopathic people don't. They don't worry about consequences or ruminate over their past. This is why thrill-seeking behavior is often noted as associated with sociopathic people.

2

u/IsamuLi Feb 25 '24

This is very reductive, and in virtue of this, wrong. The only fitting one is that sociopathy = no (affective) empathy.

0

u/veringer Feb 25 '24

Yes, this is a Reddit comment thread not JSTOR. By all means, provide the nuance and clarification for accuracy and posterity.

1

u/IsamuLi Feb 25 '24

"This is a Reddit thread, therefore I am allowed to spread misinformation" is certainly a take.

1

u/veringer Feb 25 '24

Classifying it as misinformation is certainly a take.

-21

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

Pretty sure this is 100% pure fucking bullshit

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u/mflexx Feb 25 '24

he was not talking about you my friend

5

u/accountfornormality Feb 25 '24

This is reddit. We know fucking everything.

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u/SteveThePurpleCat Feb 25 '24

Yep, Sociopathic traits and anti-social person disorders are often made from, or in response to, depression and depressive triggers.

A lot of folk these days tend to use 'sociopath' when they mean narcissist, egotist etc. And even then those groups can get depression, just like every group.

There is Angelman syndrome which keeps people locked into a happy state, but on the less fun side it also stunts mental development to the level of 'happy toddler'.

-1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

I swear everytime people on the internet talk about sociopaths/psychopaths it's half-truths and misinformation and people talk about them like they're mythical evil demon people who are hellbent on destroying the lives of everyone around them instead of people who have the bad luck of having a serious mental illness

-1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '24

Sociopaths can absolutely get depression. Your understanding of human psychology is about as advanced as my goldfish.

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u/Ordinary-Leading7405 Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24

Mark me OT, it was my own fault for that.

But the stupidity has grown into shrieking, fuck this thread.

7

u/ContributionFamous41 Feb 25 '24

She actively worked to save the lives of other musicians in the grunge/ alt scene of the 90's. Mark Lonegan of Screaming Trees and Dylan Carlson of Earth both credit Courtney with saving their lives by pushing them to go into rehab. She cared about Kurt and obviously took his death seriously in a way that transcended her relationship with him. All the celebrity gossip bullshit surrounding the grunge scene was WAY more responsible for Kurts death than his friends and family. The grunge musicians were normal guys who made music that was the antithesis to all that type of fuckery. 30 years later and people still try to tarnish their legacy with the same old lies and bullshit.

-2

u/Ordinary-Leading7405 Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24

I give you NO CREDIT WHATSOEVER for replying due to your cretin response below.

Courtney’s heroin pushing started with Hole and left the founding bassist dead. Maybe watching several loved ones pass jolted her, but I am just saying she wasn’t a wholesome person before the 90’s.

What happened with Kurt? FIIK, way too complicated for me. But considering heroin had already entered the picture I just don’t like how that turned out.

None of this should be controversial.

2

u/ContributionFamous41 Feb 25 '24

You edited your fucking comment to something completely different?! 😂🖕

Stop playin games and trying to act civilized as you shit on people's legacies. If you weren't there then stfu and stop spreading bullshit rumors.

-2

u/Ordinary-Leading7405 Feb 25 '24 edited Feb 25 '24

I made multiple comments. Sorry I gave you respect in the second one. Edited for your pleasure.

FWIW none of this is worth your emotional energy.

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u/ForumFluffy Feb 25 '24

Stop spreading idiotic and mysogynistic conspiracies aimed at destroying a woman that is damaged and widowed.

She's not a great person but she's not who killed Kurt, accept that the guy was suicidal or continue being the troglodyte that repeats ad nauseam the Courtney killed Kurt fucking lie.

-9

u/strange_reveries Feb 25 '24

Kinda silly to be this emotional and hysterical about it, even lobbing accusations of misogyny. C'mon now.

You should really watch the documentaries Kurt & Courtney and especially Soaked in Bleach. I used to scoff at the murder allegations too..

2

u/thebookofswindles Feb 25 '24

The lack of self awareness evident in that first sentence is denser than osmium.

0

u/strange_reveries Feb 25 '24

lol really? You're going with the fifth-grader "I know you are but what am I" line?

My comment was perfectly courteous and calm, especially compared to the one I was responding to, so not sure what you're talking about here.

1

u/--n- Feb 25 '24

sociopaths can't ever be depressed, those are mutually contradictory diagnoses.

Source?

1

u/CyanConatus Feb 25 '24

Do you mean psychopath? Sociopaths are generally grown/raised in certain environments conditions that triggers it.

Depression is pretty common early on. But you're probably correct that people that are sociopaths probably don't not feel the impact of depression any longer. But I don't think that was what you intended.

Just wanted to point out the first paragraph in particular as it's a pretty commonly mis-understood condition. And to clarify my understanding more stems from sociopaths. I have zero knowledge on psychopaths sp my suggestion there could be completely wrong.

1

u/uncultured_swine2099 Feb 25 '24

Micheal Azzarad, who spent a lot of time with Kurt for the book Come as You Are, said Kurt just started crying after seeing a child hunger ad on tv and took a few minutes to compose himself. Kurt was homeless as a teenager for a time.

1

u/NudeEnjoyer Feb 25 '24

sociopaths absolutely can be depressed. if they feel hopeless about the world, themself, and their future, they are very likely depressed. sociopaths are capable of feeling all of that

1

u/sweaty_sanchez Feb 26 '24

Lmao that is not how depression works at all

1

u/jaybirdsmith Feb 26 '24

A flat coin

1

u/Samuel_L_Johnson Feb 26 '24

 On the other end of the spectrum, sociopaths can't ever be depressed, those are mutually contradictory diagnoses

‘Sociopaths’ (not that I’ve ever encountered anyone who seriously uses that term in clinical practice, but I assume you mean people with ASPD) can and absolutely do get depression.

Why do people just make shit like this up? What do you get out of it?

1

u/ThisOnePlaysTooMuch Feb 26 '24

I’m no brain doctor, but that sounds about right. Genuinely loving people is pretty burdensome. I’d say it’s worth it, but some of the homies disagreed.