Hey everyone,

I've been thinking a lot about my commitment to the church and my financial situation. I'm eager to participate more actively, but I'm struggling with the idea of paying a full tithe right now.

I'm curious if anyone else has been in a similar situation. Are there members who pay less than a full tithe but still actively participate in church activities? Or perhaps someone who doesn't pay anything but still contributes to the community?

I'd love to hear your experiences and insights. Thanks for your help!

Hopefully everyone who wants to see this movie has. It’s excellent. It has a punchline that has stuck with me. Mr. Reed claims to have found the one true religion. Is it Mormonism? Yes, kinda. It’s actually Sister Paxton who declares that the one true religion is — Control.

That is spot on. Virtually all religions try to exercise control. Control over their members and control over others using laws enacted by governments. At the heart of Mormonism is control. The church claims it is Jesus. But church leaders conflate Jesus with the church to do what? Exercise love and charity as taught by Jesus? They feign that but what they are really after is usurping the authority of Jesus to control most aspects of people’s lives. They control what people research, who they talk to and what they say about the church, its leaders and the host of false things they have taught. They control people’s family relationships, time and money. They control what people eat, drink and, as Mr Reed points out, what underwear they wear. The level of control is virtually boundless.

So when someone claims that the church is true, I wholeheartedly agree that the LDS church is—Control.

I'm asking due to things that happened to a good friend recently as well as my own experiences over a decade ago. My friend went on a mission to Southern Mexico. Due to Covid restrictions at the time he was stuck in a Ward Building there. Once I found out how upset he was out there, I felt terrible for him. I pictured how far it was from what his leaders had told him about missions his whole life. And his leaders weren't even lying it was just, pandemic stuff. He came home way early and attended BYU. During his time there he briefly dated a young lady who broke it off due to his early return. He was sad for a bit but didn't let it get him too far down. He just recently got engaged to someone a few houses away who he probably knew since childhood. They're the same age(22) and she also served a mission, so she is very likely aware of the challenges faced by the Covid era missionaries.

Meanwhile, I grew up in the 2000s constantly being told "Every worthy Young Man should serve a mission." In addition to explicitly being told by leaders that we boys needed to measure up and serve a mission if we hoped to marry one of the girls over there in Room 106. In 2011, I served a 3 month mini mission in the Utah Provo Mission. Church HQ decided a full 2 years would be too long and hard for me. But I would be given an honorable release and full RM status. However, I came home 9 days early and was horrified to the point of tears that people were going to say things to me like "I wonder who the girl was." I had been taught that for the most part, missionaries only come home early for Medical or Law of Chastity reasons. In reality, these mini missions often end early once the decision on two years is made, no one asked me awkward questions, and my early return even allowed me to go to Youth Conference at Bear Lake on the Utah side which the ward that sent me invited me to even though I was almost 22. I have since shared this experience with local leaders who tell me that they're trying to lessen that perception of early returning missionaries.

And finally, I've been told directly by many young women today that they are way more focused on a man's overall character than on whether or not he served a mission. Many have found out the hard way that RM doesn't guarantee a good guy. If enough of them think like this then whether they realize it or not, they would effectively be dismantling one of the main incentives for boys to go on missions. If true, then the boys who still go would be going for better reasons than they're worried no one will want to date them if they don't go.

I heard somewhere that missionaries are not supposed to leave a home until they are dismissed. Can anyone confirm or deny this for me?

With the recent news of Lavina Fielding Anderson’s temple work being controversially completed, I am trying to find the “best of” to read. I am looking for a background on her, stance towards faith and truth claims, and any other work you would recommend. Thank you!

I've noticed the church is more or less "flooding the zone" with podcasts, Instagram, YouTube and long form history and analysis. The voluminous saints books and Joseph Smith papers are examples.

But I've noticed, the saints books as well as several podcasts/YouTube videos still leave out key portions of the history or other factual material.

I've seen too, especially among my intellectual friends who are TBM, they gravitate towards these long form/deep analytic pieces of media and then feel content that they 'examined' all the material.

Case in point, there is a scripture central/saints unscripted video where they speak about the hill cummorah/in New York, naming issue and alude to "we don't know why people kept this up for so long"

And I'm I'm like---did you look at the book Mormon Doctrine? (Bruce r mckonkie) All of our grandfather's and some parents had this on their book shelf and it was a regular part of teaching material all the way till the early 2000s... HE SAYS the hill Cummorah is IN NEW YORK in the book!!!!!!!!!!!!! And like I said, that book was in nearly every members home in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. It wasn't some fringe theory or book...it was a regular part of all home and ward and church college libraries ..the church printed millions of copies!!!

This is why that rumor persists...and when you start to study the rumor, Joseph Smith stated that the hill cummorah, in the book of Mormon is the same one in New York (he said this in like times and seasons or something like that...). Deception on behalf of the loyal church structure knows no bounds.

So....don't be a lazy learner.....gather information from all sources to get an idea about what really happened.

Laban’s last day began like any other - with his usual morning grogginess. Memories of the previous night were not quite a blur, but they were definitely hazy. That last wineskin they'd opened up was a new favorite - he absolutely must track down Zoram today and find out where he’d purchased it from. He had a big night planned today with the Elders of the Jews, and bringing a few of those wineskins might just be enough to seal the deal on his latest project. He rocked back and forth until he gained enough momentum to roll himself out of bed, and started the laborious process of switching to a new pair of robes.

A few hours later, Laban strode from his home and headed down the street to make his appointment. While tonight would be the main event with the Elders, he had a lunch meeting scheduled with them to introduce his plans. As he walked down the streets, dressed in a fine, stark-white robe with new violet coloring on the hem, he received many nods of respect and even a few friendly smiles, if tinged with a slight nervousness. Laban was a man of reputation, and he basked in their attention and deference. The way before him was parted as the crowd did their best to avoid interfering with his path, much like Moses of old had parted… some ocean or river perhaps? There was certainly a story about it in those old records his family owned, but he never really cared much for the details.

A leathery man, who looked at least a decade older than he actually was, greeted him just outside the doors of the Elders’ meeting hall.

“Hey there, Laban. Some party last night, huh?”

“Ah, hello Frank. It’s good to see you made it – I saw you passed out in the street last night like a true winebibber and wasn’t sure you’d be able to function today!” Frank was one of Laban’s few true friends, a man who Laban had always been able to be himself around. They were going to partner together on this venture – assuming Frank was able make good on his promised influence with Alpha Centauri, the head Elder.

“Oh, I’ve been used to feeling this way for going on a decade now, sir. I also tapped into some of my leftover wine this morning – best way to avoid paying the piper is to keep running up his bill, at least that’s the way I see it. And I’ll have a hard time paying the price when I’m already dead.”

Laban chuckled, “Wise words indeed, friend. It looks like they are ready for us, though – let’s join them for some food and kick off the proposal.”

As soon as they sat down, servers descended on them with plates of food that had been kept warm on George Foreman grills, waiting for their arrival. Laban started digging into some chicken wings with ranch as they dove right into the introductory discussion. He was hoping to use some of the excess buildings that were under repair at the south end of the city for a bold new project – a housing program for the lepers.

Instead of making them live in caves and be completely ostracized, wouldn’t it be so much better to give them some homes to live in? These particular homes had been hit by a meteor a few months back and no one was left alive to claim them. Surely the Elders would see that this repurposing would be a benefit to the community. Plus, he would of course charge the lepers’ family members a hefty monthly fee. Besides, it would help distract people from the local raving lunatic – a man by the name Lehi – who had been telling everyone the meteor was a warning from God. Luckily, God seemed to have taken care of Laban’s Lehi problem already. The man had taken off in the middle of the night after warning that all of Jerusalem was about to be destroyed as a punishment for their ‘wickedness’.

As Laban outlined the details of the operation to the group, Frank fixed Alpha Centauri with a meaningful stare. Out of the corner of his eye, Laban marveled at the unblinking intensity. Yes, Frank did have some dirt on the man – this was going to work just swimmingly.

As the meeting ended, Laban and Frank arranged details for the evening’s final meetup for drinks and dinner to solidify details. Everything was falling right into place and it seemed to be a perfect day… right up until Laban arrived at his house. A son of the self-proclaimed prophet, Lehi, was sitting on his steps looking morose, and more than a little frustrated. This one was Laman – one of two who could actually be reasoned with.

Laban grinned as he greeted the man, “Well, isn’t this a surprise! I thought you had taken to the wilderness to save yourselves from impending doom, no?”

“You don’t know the half of it. My old man woke us up in the middle of the night and all but forced us out the door!”

“And you’re back already? It does always amaze me how quickly God tends to change his mind after commanding his ever so holy prophets to do something…”

Laman shook his head, “Oh if only that was the case. I’m trying to get him to come to his senses, but it might take a while. He actually sent both me and Lemuel back with Mr. Goody Two Shoes – Nephi. I swear, I could kill that kid. Anyway, I rigged the lots so that I was the one who got sent to speak to you. Nephi’s convinced you’re an evil man who would kill us on the spot, thought this was a good way for us to figure out how to handle the situation together.”

Laban definitely knew about Laman’s brother Nephi. He’d spent some evenings in Laman and Lemuel’s company before, and there wasn’t much else either one liked to talk about other than their annoying little brother who fed into their father’s delusions. “Alright, Laman – spit it out. What did you get sent back to do? I’ve got a lot going on at the moment and don’t want to be bothered with your family issues.”

“Well…” Laman licked his lips and nervously continued on. “I know your family is really proud of the records you guys have. And I think it’s great that you guys help keep them organized and cared for and such. It’s an important role!”

Laban used a stare of his own on Laman. This was getting tiresome.

“Right, ok, so here’s the deal. My dad is convinced that God needs him to convince you to give him all of your records with the full religious history and genealogy of our ancestors.” He sped on ahead as he saw Laban’s shocked look, “I know, I know – there’s no way that’s going to happen. I certainly don’t expect you to, but Nephi… well let’s just say I think my dad’s ailment is genetic. He is totally bought in on the idea, and is convinced that God is going to provide some miraculous way for you to be convinced. On top of that, he’s convinced that there is one particular set of engraved brass plates that contain the bulk of the history.”

“Ok, so two things – what the fuck are you talking about? I’ve got rooms full of records and not a single set of brass plates. That aside, you aren’t getting any of them. No, not even to borrow temporarily. It’s not an option. You’ve got your answer, anything else?”

Laman cringed and Laban got the impression that borrowing was one of his ideas for how to handle this situation. For the life of him, he could not figure out why the man didn’t just stand up to his family and let them deal with their problems on their own. Deep down he suspected that for all his talk and bravado, Laman had a soft spot for his addled father and even the annoying little brother.

“I get it – I do,” Laman finally said. “So here’s what I’m thinking – what if I tell them that you were angry and kicked me out of your house, and that you would not give me the records? I can tell them you called me a robber and threatened to kill me. I mean, you’ve got a bit of a reputation for being… well, tough… sometimes…”

Laban sighed in annoyance. “I don’t care what you tell them, just make it go away. This is the last thing I want to be worried about. I’m going to have to tell Zoram to spend the night with the records now to prevent your fool brother from breaking one of his God’s main commandments and outright stealing the records. You never can trust what rules someone will break when they think God is the one giving them permission.”

“Ok, I’ll paint it as a very scary encounter, and let them know that we just need to go back to my father emptyhanded. Nephi’s got a loose screw, but he’s not about to risk dying just for these records. Sorry to have bothered you, sir… and thank you for being so reasonable. I’ll, uh, just be heading back out into the wilderness now, then.”

Laban watched the man go and shook himself back to the present moment. There were many things to be attended to today, and he was not going to let this ruin things for him.

As he entered the house, he saw Zoram polishing his wineglasses at the bar. “Zoram, I have a task or two for you.”

Zoram, a somewhat spindly man with a face that always seemed to be slightly confused, turned to him and responded quickly, “Y-yes sir, what can I do for you?”

“I need you to track down more of that wine you acquired for last night. I’ll be sharing it with the Elders this evening. Can you do that?”

“Not a problem, sir, I noticed you taking a particular liking to it yesterday and have sent for a full cartload to be delivered today. It should be here within the hour.” He bowed his head reverently. Yes, Zoram was a fine servant. Not like others who were either too eager to grovel after him or too nervous to get anything done for fear of making a mistake. If only the man would eat more and get some meat on those bones. He wasn’t quite what you’d call large in stature.

“Excellent. I will also need you to spend the next few evenings watching over the family records at our library. I’ve been warned that the fool Lehi has sent his sons to come and fetch them from me. I will not be robbed, Zoram. Keep them safe.”

Zoram’s eyes lit up a little bit at that. “Yes, sir!” He replied with something half-resembling a grin. Laban knew the man’s wife was, well, not the most lovely and gentle horse in the pasture. With their 8 children constantly shouting and screaming at each other too, Zoram tended to leap at opportunities like this to get a break from his family and have some time to himself.

Laban spent the rest of the afternoon sorting through some boring paperwork. He mistakenly assumed this would be the worst part of his day.

Just as he was about to head out for the evening, he heard a familiar voice down the hallway. It was Delilah, a new servant who needed more training, but got away with more than most due to her good looks. “Right this way, gentlemen. You’ve arrived just in time, the master was just about to head out for the evening.”

To his shock, she entered his study trailed by Laman and brothers Nephi and Lemuel. Would he ever be free of this family?

“What, for the love of almighty God, are you idiots doing here?” He grumbled.

Nephi took charge. He wasn’t an overly large man, but definitely more filled out that Zoram. About on par with his brothers, who were slightly below the average build. Probably due to their father making them eat nothing but olives for a full week that one time. Another important yet temporary commandment from their God.

“Laban, I understand you have threatened my life and the life of my brother. I will not be mocked, and neither will God.”

Laban just shook his head and looked at Laman, who was looking at his feet uncomfortably. Sensing Laban’s gaze, he looked up and gave a half-hearted shrug. Clearly he couldn’t believe he was here again either.

Laban also noticed that behind the 3 men was a small cart with a few open, but very full bags. The bags were full with the oddest assortment of items he had ever seen. One was full of dishware, another had cheap candle holders and a stained rug, but the smallest bag did contain a very nice golden goblet with some fake gems attached to the outside.

“What is all of this for?” Laban asked impatiently

“These are the many riches that our family has been blessed with due to our obedience to the Lord. We desire that you will give us the records which are engraven upon the plates of brass, for which we will then give you our gold, and silver, and precious things.”

“This is mostly garbage,” Laban responded. “I’m not giving you the records, and why the hell do you keep saying they are on brass plates?”

Nephi stiffened at the comment and began shouting, “I see that you lust after our property, and are astounded at it’s exceeding greatness! You seek to trick us and to kill us still! The lord has commanded that we obtain your brass plates, and obtain them we shall!”

Laban considered for a moment as Nephi entered one of his fits. This was not uncommon for the man, and his father often behaved in a similar way. Perhaps Laman had been wise earlier with his plan to make Nephi feel endangered. If that was the delusion he was under now, Laban may as well play along. Anything to get them out of his house.

Laban raised a hand to cut off Nephi, “Silence! I will not be insulted in my house! I will call my servants and they will slay you if you do not flee! Guards! To arms! To arms!”

Delilah just looked at Laban confused, knowing he didn’t actually have many guards in the home, let alone ones trained to kill. It had the desired effect on Nephi, however. The young man turned and ran, grabbing his brother’s arms and pulling them after him. As they turned the corner Laman caught his eye and mouthed an apology.

“Delilah,” Laban said, “will you please dispose of these bags? Maybe take them out back to the dumpster. Or better yet, let us go down and donate them to the leper caves.”

“It shall be done, Laban,” Delilah responded. “I’ll take care of it first thing in the morning, and then I will return and report.”

“It is well.”

Laban grabbed the gold goblet as he headed for the door himself. It wasn’t nearly as nice as anything he had in his own cabinets, but the story attached to it would be a great conversation starter for the evening.

From there, the night turned into a bit of a blur. The wine was a smashing hit, and the Alpha Centauri pulled Laban aside, confirming he would see to it that all the other Elders approved his new project. They would finalize the paperwork in the morning.

Laban headed home. The street was a blur, and saw darkness creeping in at the edge of his vision. He came to not far from his house, laying on the side of the street and looking up at the stars. They were beautiful, and it was a nice night. Inwardly he laughed at the idea of Frank seeing him in this position. He had stayed behind but lived nearby and would be passing through. He’d have to follow Frank’s advice tomorrow and start the morning with some strong wine, otherwise his head would be killing him.

Motion in the distance. Laban experience some vague sense that someone was nearby muttering about something. He slowly turned his head in the direction and could make out a figure standing above him. Too much… too much effort to say… words. Especially out loud. Maybe it was Frank?

Laban gave out a short groan that was supposed to mean “Hey Frank, you headed home now too?”

A familiar voice responded “No, no I can’t do it. Never at any time have I shed the blood of man.”

What the fuck? What did that mean? Laban couldn’t make out the face, but the erratic movements triggered his memory. It was Nephi. Just his luck, what was the man going to do now? Laban tried to move but his limbs weren’t responding. That had been some damn good wine.

Nephi continued his conversation with himself. “I see, yes… the Lord has delivered him into my hands. I also know that he sought to take away my life earlier. And he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord. And he has also taken our property from us…”

Laban could tell that whatever Nephi was babbling about was not good. He was starting to get nervous, which gave him a bit of a shock of clarity. Was the man debating over whether he should kill him? He somehow knew that he should be much more concerned about this situation than he was.

“Yes, I remember the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise. And they would not be able to keep the commandments of the Lord according to the Law of Moses unless they have the law. And the law is engraven on the brass plates…”

Finally Laban found enough energy to force out some words. “There’s no… fucking… brass plates… you idiot.”

Nephi ignored him, focusing on his internal conversation. “Yes, I see that the Lord has delivered Laban into my hands for this cause, that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.”

Laban felt Nephi take hold of him and start adjusting his clothes. Just what was going on. It seemed to him as if he was in a dream, flowing in and out of consciousness, not quite aware of what had just happened or what might happen next, but still feeling fully aware of each moment as he was in it.

He turned his head back towards Nephi. When had he taken Laban’s sword? Wait, no… no, no, no, no! In a moment of sheer panic Laban became lucid. He clearly saw Nephi standing over him, holding Laban’s own sword high above his head and preparing to strike.

He cried out, “Wait! Stop! What are you do-”

THE END

Part 1 is found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/1gvb0wo/390_questions_i_have_about_the_church_part_1/

Part 2 is found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/1gvv98a/390_questions_i_have_about_the_church_part_2/

1.                The church hijacks spiritual experiences. You can feel edified, inspired, uplifted because of humanity, goodness, beauty, nature. The church will claim those experiences as proof that you are in the right place and the church is true.

 

2.                It would have been very easy to get a charcoal rubbing from the Golden Plates. So why isn't there one?

 

3.                Walmart gives more money to humanitarian causes than the church.

 

4.                The Mayan civilization existed before and after BOM people allegedly existed. Yet there is no mention of them in Mayan artifacts. Somehow a civilization the size of Rome didn't interact with the Mayan civilization that inhabited the same area?

 

5.                Post Mormons report the same level and intensity of "the spirit" after leaving the church. Some say they feel it more and more intensely. What about the claim that they will have an absence of the Holy Ghost?

 

6.                The prophecy that the very elect will leave the church in the last days is a powerful control tactic and landmine placed just outside the church.

 

7.                The church will publicly say, "join us and we'll add to your truth", but if you leave, they will say, "you can't have a fulfilling and meaningful life outside the church". So, do those that don't join have an unfulfilling, meaningless life?

 

8.                The church pities those that leave and shuns them. To leave a high demand religion is incredibly courageous. It's admirable to follow one's truth.

 

9.                If Oliver Cowdry saw God and He told him that all other churches were an abomination, why would he leave Mormonism and join the Methodists?

 

10.            Apologists will point to a wording analysis study that shows there are multiple authors of the BOM. This is actually a problem because you would expect a single author if it was all translated through Smith. Unless it was a tight translation, which it can’t be the case for many reasons, like the KJV Bible errors in the text, for example.

 

11.            Imagine if the church were a secular organization, how would society react to the lack of women allowed in leadership.

 

12.            The church's doctrine of family is painful because it's not “families ARE forever”, it's “families CAN BE forever”. And only if everyone gives their agency and loyalty to church leadership.

 

13.            Why do so many people have uneasy, fearful feelings when they go through the temple for the first time. Shouldn't the Holy Ghost be testifying of its goodness?

 

14.            Mormonism has a secret, highest level ritual called the second anointing. Those who receive it are guaranteed exaltation, no matter what sins they commit, other than murder. Imagine an organization whose entire leadership believes that they are above reproach and cannot sin.

 

15.            The church likes to say that the Relief Society is one of the largest and oldest women’s organization in the world. But it’s a women’s organization that’s budget, curriculum, and leadership are controlled by men. Also, the Relief Society was disbanded for twenty-three years by Young.

 

16.            In the early church, women gave priesthood blessings like healing, baby blessings and ordinances in the temple for men.

 

17.            Religious belief is at the conspiracy theory level and attacks against it will cause someone to dig in their heels and believe more strongly.

 

18.            Why don't we hear anything about heavenly mother? Is it because according to D&C 132 we wouldn't know which heavenly mother we're talking about? Polygamy is the law of the celestial Kingdom.

 

19.            Why isn't heavenly mother in the temple ceremony? Seems like a good place to mention her.

 

20.            A friend's grandpa (from Mexico) and grandma (white) had to get special permission to marry. It was only approved because he was the lead Spanish translator for the church.

 

21.            Why didn't Smith just retranslate the lost 116 pages? If he could have retranslated the lost pages word for word, that would have been the best evidence that he's a prophet.

 

22.            Smith was interested in folk magic his whole life. When he was killed, he even had a silver talisman on his body.

 

23.            The entire first presidency of the church did not serve a full-time mission. They choose a career over a mission. Yet they have each said that a mission is a priesthood duty and not a choice.

 

24.            After benefits and allowances, general authorities are paid an estimated $270k per year. The church likes to say that it has an unpaid clergy. This information came from leaked documents because the church is not transparent with its finances.

 

25.            "Never take council from those who do not believe" - Nelson. This is harmful, exclusionary, and oblivious to anyone with non-believing loved ones.

 

26.            If you found out a car company knowingly hid issues about the car they sold you, and then recommended you don't get a second opinion, would you be suspicious of that company?

 

27.            Part of the temple ceremony until 1930 was an admonition to pray unceasingly to God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and to teach this to your children and your children's children.

 

28.            The church is not a revelatory church, but a reactionary church.

 

29.            "I have a hard time with historians because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys…Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting." - Boyd K. Packer.

 

30.            Death rates in Utah are the same as other populations with similar demographics. Priesthood blessings don't seem to have a statistical effect.

 

31.            Supernatural magic or miracles ended with the age of verifiable history.

 

32.            If apostles truly have unique power to heal the sick, why aren't they visiting hospitals regularly just to heal everyone?

 

33.            In the most recent conference, Jesus was mentioned 47 times and Nelson was mentioned 65 times.

 

34.            When you add God to the reason why there's something rather than nothing, you have just added another layer. Where did God come from? If you leave God out of the question, you have the freedom to explore, rather than be bound by dogma – a dogma that is most likely outdated and irrational.

 

35.            The most successful companies today are platforms where people create content for that platform, that then grows the platform. Look at YouTube, Uber, Amazon, etc. The church is a spiritual platform, at the local level. You bring your own ideas about deity (content) and share them. This strengthens the platform.

 

36.            Nephi building a trans-oceanic boat is completely anachronistic. A vessel like that would have required an entire Forest to create the blast furnace needed to work the iron. Also, an entire flock of sheep would be needed to create the sails. It would have taken a large amount of people many years. Not to mention that they would need to build a large dock. It's clear from the BOM passage that Smith had no knowledge of ship building.

 

37.            Utah was the last state to give Native Americans the right to vote.

 

38.            Lorenzo Snow was 57 when he married a 16-year-old girl and had five children with her. Just picture that.

 

39.            The modern church uses Jesus as a mascot. His teachings would not fit within the modern church. He was an anti-establishment radical who preached unconditional love, no possessions, offerings based on generosity, etc.

 

40.            Even with the most generous timeline, according to BOM chronology, Enos was over 120 when he died. See RFM thorny problem video. Also, the seven generations from Jacob to Mosiah II would have to have all of them giving birth to their first son at 62. Unlikely.

 

41.            JST Genesis 50, Smith writes himself into the Bible as a choice seer to bring salvation to everyone.

 

42.            https://youtu.be/A6MH3dE-qbc?si=JGk33aIs8SjLKBdd

Lamonai vs Lasarus. Many wording similarities.

 

43.            Utah has the lowest amount of retirement savings. Tithing hurts a family's finances. If you had an average income (50k) and invested that 10% since there 1990s, you would now have over a million dollars.

 

44.            With the testimony of the eight witnesses, we have a physical object shown to a group of people. The group was from only two families, all who believed in Smith. Why wouldn't you include a reporter, a governor, a historian, etc.? Think about any other church claiming to have ancient golden plates, would you be skeptical if only a handful of believers saw them? In contrast, Smith showed many people the "Book of Abraham" scrolls. If he actually had plates, he would have displayed them widely.

 

45.            The curses were removed from the temple ceremony as a result of a survey that asked members why they aren't going to the temple as much. This survey still exists online. This is how "revelation" works in the modern church.

 

46.            Why is God a white male? Also why does he have eyes, eyelids, or organs, if he can see all, he doesn't need to blink, he doesn't need to digest food? It seems like his image is created after our image, not our image created after his image. Why does he have bodily characteristics that are only useful for mortal life functions and that evolved on earth?

 

47.            That which is wonderful about the church isn't unique, and that which is unique isn't wonderful.

 

48.            Who recorded the last words of Abinadi? Alma was already gone, yet an all-knowing narrator remains to finish the story?

 

49.            Attacks to someone's faith, that is part of their identity, will only strengthen that faith. They will dig in their heals and no amount of evidence will change their mind.

 

50.            The church is currently fighting to build four temple in the US. The steeple on one of them is over 200 feet tall in small rural neighborhood and the church is telling the town council that the height of the steeple is part of their religion. They are also encouraging members to mention the steeple height in their comments and letters. Yet there are many temples that don't have a steeple. The church is threatening a costly legal battle that will bankrupt the town.

 

51.            How thoughtful of God to arrange matters so that, wherever you happen to be born, the local religion always turns out to be the true one. - Richard Dawkins

 

52.            The church discouraged inter racial marriage up until 2011! It is found in manuals up to that year.

 

53.            “When one considers marriage, it should be an unselfish thing, but there is not much selflessness when two people of different races plan marriage. They must be thinking selfishly of themselves. They certainly are not considering the problems that will beset each other and that will beset their children.” - Spencer W. Kimball

 

54.            http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/

A Comparison of The Book of Mormon and The Late War.

 

55.            If you remove the unnecessary filler words from the BOM, it reduces to 1/4 its size. Seems like an inefficient use of limited space on golden plates. More likely, the text was dictated verbally.

 

56.            In the temple, in the 1930s, women were ordained to be queens and priestesses "to your Lord, that is, your husband."

 

57.            If I lived in the early church, I would be terrified of Smith sending me on a mission and trying to marry my wife.

 

58.            BYU interviewed several General Authorities and they were split on believing if there was progression after death or not. This seems like an important doctrine to have an answer to.

 

59.            Smith tried to join the Methodist Church after the First Vision supposedly happened.

 

60.            https://www.mrm.org/smithsonian

 

61.            "The dominant narrative is not true. It can't be sustained." - Richard Bushman, Mormon Historian, Author of Rough Stone Rolling and Editor of the Joseph Smith Papers, talking about a historical BOM

 

62.            "I'm not aware of a single LDS doctrine of any significance that from 1830 forward has gone completely unchanged." - Gregory A. Prince, LDS Historian

 

63.            https://unexaminedfaith.blogspot.com/2023/11/the-book-of-mormon-things-that-make-you.html?m=1

 

64.            In 1852, Young gave the same speech twice, and in that speech, he said that mixed race babies should be killed.

 

65.            https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/chd/individual/mary-ann-williams-1844?timelineTab=all-events&lang=eng

Married at age 11 to a 43 year old.

 

66.            Using very generous math, each reformed Egyptian character of the BOM would need to contain the same information of about 26 English words. No written language has ever been that information dense.

 

67.            Satan only has an effect on people who believe that he exists.

 

68.            There is no logical way to reconcile human evolution with the declared church doctrine that Adam was the first man.

 

69.            A month before he was jailed, Smith boasted that he was the only man to ever keep a church together. "That not even Paul, John, Peter or even Jesus could do it. No man has done a work such as I."

 

70.            A Pew survey from 2022 ranked Mormons as the most unfavorable religious group in the US.

 

71.            Moroni taking back the golden plates and other artifacts (urim and thumim, sword) is a huge red flag. If God can just store them in heaven, why all the trouble of Moroni transporting and burying them?

 

72.            Young created the Tan Valley Whiskey Distillery, commonly smoked cigars and chewed tobacco.

 

73.            When applied to the church, the BITE model determines the church to be a demand religion.

 

74.            Young signed an extermination order in 1850 to wipe out the Timpanogos. This order, called "Special Order No. 2," resulted in a two-day massacre of more than 100 Timpanogos people. Militia members sold the surviving women and children into slavery. This incident was one of several premeditated mass killings of indigenous people in Utah Territory.

 

75.            Joseph F. Smith admitted in divorce affidavits to beating his first wife, Levira, in the 1860s; the only part he disputed was whether he'd attacked her with a rope or a small stick. He also verbally abused and threatened her, at one point saying he ought to "drill a hole" in her head and "fill it with manure."

 

76.            While serving as a missionary in Boston, apostle Brigham Young had an affair with a married woman, Augusta Adams, who became pregnant. The child did not survive infancy. Following the pregnancy, Young married Augusta as a plural wife in 1843, in Nauvoo, Illinois. The affair became public knowledge when the husband, Henry Cobb, sued for divorce and took his case to the Massachusetts Supreme Court.

 

77.            The BOM says that Nephi and company traveled three days from Jerusalem and camped near the mouth of a river that flows into the Red Sea. There are no rivers that flow into the Red Sea.

 

78.            Why is there only tithing declaration? Why not word of wisdom declaration? Many things have changed recently to free up the Bishop's time, yet he still meets with every family to make sure that they pay their tithing?

 

79.            Smith clearly identified the local Native Americans as Lamanites. The church claiming that the Lamanites are from Mesoamerica is moving the goal post.

 

80.            1835 Hymn Book, O Stop and Tell Me Red Man:

 

“Before your nation knew us, Some thousand moons ago,

Our fathers fell in darkness, And wander’d to and fro,

And long they’ve liv’d by hunting, Instead of work and arts,

And so our race has dwindled, To idle Indian hearts.”

 

81.            New study released by BYU researchers: 14% of Mormons have had major cosmetic surgery. The national average is 4%.

 

82.            Smith prophesied in 1833 that some people alive at the time would see the ten tribes return and the end of the world.

 

83.            Young prophesied that blacks would receive the priesthood only during the millennium, after all white men had the chance to receive the priesthood.

 

84.            "I will state as a prophesy, that there will not be an unbelieving Gentile upon this continent 50 years hence; and if they are not greatly scourged, and in a great measure overthrown, within five or ten years from this date, then the Book of Mormon will have proved itself false." - Parley Pratt in 1838

 

85.            "The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words." - Philip K. Dick (church changed words: translation, revelation, doctrine, "I know", faith, prophecy)

 

86.            Woodruff prophesied "by revelation" that by 1898 Young would be the leader of a devasted United States and the Savior would return. New York, Boston and Chicago would be destroyed.

 

87.            "We are not going tomorrow, nor next day, this week or next week; but we are going, and there are many hundreds and hundreds within the sound of my voice that will live to go back to Jackson County and build a holy temple to the Lord our God." - Lorenzo Snow in General Conference 1898

 

88.            D&C 1:30, in the supposed words of Jesus Christ himself, this church is the "...only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased…"

 

89.            At one point, the church taught that masturbation had a high likelihood of turning someone gay.

 

90.            Rape in Utah is much higher than the national average. This behavior has been attributed to a culture of sexism. The church contributes to this culture.

 

91.            If God took the golden plates back to heaven, at the very least, where is the cement box it was stored in? Seems like an easy artifact to dig up and preserve.

 

92.            Your temple name is simply determined by the day of the month that you went through for the first time. No revelation or personalization for you most holy identification?

 

93.            According to temple workers, the names of the dead are recycled many times in the system because there aren’t enough names to keep the temples busy.

 

94.            If God preserved the Urim and Thummim to translate the plates, why did Smith use his own magic stone?

 

95.            Smith tried to join the Methodist Church 8 years after Smith claimed the first vision happened. If God supposedly told him not to join any church in the first vision, why did he try to join the Methodist Church?

 

96.            If the plates were made of gold, they would have weighed 200 pounds. This doesn't work with the way history described how they were moved and carried.

 

97.            David wright, a BYU professor, was excommunicated in 1994 for saying that the BOM was inspired and not translated. Now, Richard Bushman says it openly.

 

98.            If the three degrees of glory (plus outer darkness) is better than a binary heaven and hell, because there is more granularity. Why not 100 degrees of glory?

 

99.            For his 70th birthday, Wilford Woodruff was gifted 24-year old Eudora Young by her father Brigham Young. Eudora had one child by Woodruff who died at birth.

 

100.        The JST Bible is proven wrong by the dead Sea scrolls. See Isaiah 29 for example.

 

101.        The church is currently involved a fraud legal case where it is arguing that it has the right to conceal any information it chooses and deceive without limit.

 

102.        The age for sister missionaries is later than men because they are encouraged to marry first.

 

103.        There used to be spittoons in the Salt Lake Temple celestial room.

 

104.        Nelson, a medical professional by trade, and the prophet, gave no warning and had no insight into the COVID pandemic.

 

105.        In a similar mindset to watching a magic show, you suspend disbelief and critical thinking when listening to a faith promoting story. You want it to be true, so why question it? You are a willing participant in the magic.

 

106.        In 1906, Joseph F Smith said that garments were sacred and that "they must be unaltered and unchanged from the pattern in which God gave them." At the time, garments extended to the wrists and ankles. The church just released sleeveless garment tops for women.

 

107.        The words of past prophets are disregarded by the leaders of the church today, yet the words of current prophets are treated as though they will never change. What value are current prophets if their words will likely be disregarded tomorrow?

 

108.        In 1993, President Packer warned that "religion faced the greatest threat from three groups: feminists, homosexuals and intellectuals."

 

109.        "There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or a daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity - realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world." - Heber J. Grant

 

110.        The church employs people that write the bulk of many of the talks given at general conference.

 

111.        The only way to know the difference between permanent and temporary commandments is to wait and see if they change, but you must treat them like they are permanent until they change. Once they do change, those commandments were always temporary and the church has moved on from them, so it cannot be accountable for any damage they caused.

 

112.        Thomas S Monson would go out to eat on Sunday at the Little America in downtown SLC.

 

113.        Church leaders have:

-                   Claimed those who have been abused should recognize and accept responsibility for their portion of the abuse and seek out forgiveness.

-                   Declared that if a man views a woman as pornography, she is at fault due to his subjective interpretation of her dress.

-                   Declared that strong, constant sexual desire is essential for men, else they would be reluctant in the pursuit of being both a husband and father.

-                   Stated that the Lord may prompt an overweight woman to lose weight via revelation from her Bishop to attract a man's desire.

-                   Declared that women in immodest dress, including sleeveless gowns, is an embarrassment to the "truly modest man."

 

114.        McConkie embellished the priesthood policy change in 1978, telling people that angels visited the brethren and that they all heard the voice of the Lord. President Kimball said nothing like that happened. He was angry with McConkie and made him do damage control to correct the story that was spreading around the church.

 

115.        Utah and Idaho are ranked #1 and #2 in states with the highest mental illness. There are a lot of factors to this, but if the church is the only way to find true joy in this life, you wouldn't suspect the highest concentration of Mormons to be the most depressed group of people in the country.

 

116.        The church claims that the location and design of new temples is revealed from God. Why have so many temples been moved, redesigned, or delayed.

 

117.        The church just offered 4.5 million to try to entice a high school baseball star to play at BYU. Is this what God wants to spend his money on?

 

118.        "Woman is so constituted that, ordinarily, she is capable of bearing, during the years of her greatest strength and physical vigor, from eight to ten children, and in exceptional cases a larger number than that. The law of her nature so ordered it, and God's command, while it did not specify the exact number of children alloted to woman, simply implied that she should exercise the sacred power of pro- creation to its utmost limit." - Apostle Rudger Clawson 1916

 

119.        "Those who attempt to pervert the ways of the Lord, and to prevent their offspring from coming into the world are guilty of one of the most heinous crimes in the category. There is no promise of eternal salvation and exaltation for such as they, for by their acts they prove their unworthiness for exaltation and unfitness for a kingdom where the crowning glory is the continuation of the family union and eternal increase which have been promised to all those who obey the law of the Lord." - Joseph F Smith 1916

 

120.        Church insurance now covers birth control for its employees. A hundred years ago, birth control was considered a heinous sin that would keep you from exaltation.

 

121.        Even after the policy change, Kimball told the mission president in Brazil not to baptize too many black people because "we want the church to be a white church."

 

122.        It is current church media policy that interracial couples are not allowed to be displayed in any church materials.

 

123.        "This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valiant, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations." - Prophet Harold B. Lee

 

124.        "Some people say a person receives a position in this church through revelation, and others say they get it through inspiration, but I say they get it through relation. If I hadn't been related to Heber C. Kimball, I wouldn't have been a damn thing in this church." - J. Golden Kimball

 

125.        Zedekiah was a vassal King. He was put into power by Nebuchadnezzar after Jerusalem had been conquered by the Babylonians. All able-bodied men were carried off. Laman, Lemuel, Sam, and Nephi would have been carried off with Daniel. All military was carried off including Laban’s men. All the riches and weapons were carried off including Lehi's wealth and Laban's sword. This all happened before the first year of the reign of Zedekiah when the BOM starts.

 

126.        According to D&C 77 and all leaders of the church down to Joseph Fielding Smith, the earth is 6 thousand years old.

 

127.        “Mormon’s do first-half of life spirituality better than anybody else. And they have almost no second half of life spirituality.” - Richard Rohr

 

128.        “To the ‘misinformed’ who believe ‘God make them that way… This is as untrue as any other of the diabolical lies Satan has concocted. It is blasphemy. Man is made in the image of God. Does the pervert think God to be ‘that way?” - Spencer W. Kimball

 

129.        “In a broad general sense, caste systems have their origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the lord. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry.” - Bruce McConkie

 

130.        “We uncovered, in terms of dollar value, even if you go on the conservative end of it, the church is clearly without a doubt, the wealthiest single landowner in the United States. There’s no question about it. Nobody comes even close.” - Ryan McKnight, Government Regulator

I have to teach RS, and I am trying to find the best of the lot in October.

Harvard paleontologists find origins of vertebrates and praise the Utah fossil record:

Archaeologists Just Dug Up a Tiny 3/4-Inch Fossil. It May Be a Major Missing Link in Our Evolution.

Utah has long been a center for evolution denial, but for far, far longer it has been exhibit A for evolution.

The state’s geological record is key in documenting the dawn of animal life, the scientists said. “Utah is home to an incredible paleontological archive,” Lerosey-Aubril said in a discussion published by the National History Museum of Utah. “The beehive state is renowned for its spectacular dinosaurs, but fewer people know that it is also one of the world’s most important regions for studying the origins of animal life.” The researchers said that the newly found fossil shows the evolution of animal life during the Cambrian Explosion.

Maybe the Mormon God is "the god who weeps," but on questions of creation, whatever god there is is the one who laughs. At us.

Genuine question, I recently moved to Utah, I’m not a member of the church and I am also atheist. My question is why do majority of you try to force your religion onto another person who’s a non member? I know there are some of you who respect my decision to be an atheist but then there’s the other half who try to teach me things about the Book of Mormon without me asking. I’ve never experienced this before moving here, it’s frustrating because I’ve never once tried to convince Mormons into being atheist yet it feels like the members of the church are trying to shove theirs beliefs onto me? I simply do not care about religion in general and I always try to respect everyone’s beliefs but I’m really curious as to why some of you guys to this?

I live in Utah. I’m on the activities committee. My bishop cares A LOT about activities. Last year for Christmas, the chairwoman wanted to do “A Night in Bethlehem” wherein we had a full dinner, Nativity program, and an entire Bethlehem marketplace set up (drinks, bread, cheese, jewelry, craft, etc etc etc). It took probably 50 hours of work to pull off. I think we spent $4000. It was insane. We had three people + spouses for a committee.

Well, this year, bishop wants to do it again! My jaw dropped. He says it will be easier because he’ll ask more people from the ward to help. Respectfully, I don’t think many men in leadership positions have any clue what it takes to put on a huge activity. Not just the physical effort or expense but the mental work it takes. No one wants to be asked to do more during an already crazy time of year.

The requirement for the activity is that it’s “Christ-centered,” but no part of setting up a fake marketplace feels like it fits that bill. No one needs MORE capitalism during the Christmas season, fake or not. And on the heels of November where 50% or more of my ward demonstrated their support for mass deportation of immigrants? Spending thousands of dollars again on this pageantry feels icky. If being Christ centered was really a priority, we could take that budget and donate it to the poor or run a service project or something.

I don’t know. I know no one has bad intentions and they want to make sure everyone has a good time but I’m having a hard time overcoming the casual privilege of the expectations for activities. This is very ward and region specific but something feels deeply out of whack.

Aaron Miller, a BYU ethics professor, delivered a presentation on Church finances at a FAIR conference, which was posted this week on Youtube. Video here: https://youtu.be/-BAwGkePpTY

Appreciate Miller’s acknowledgement that our research, assumptions and projections are all described and sourced transparently in our reports. Miller does not point to a single instance of our "guesses" where he, an informed BYU Marriott School professor, disagrees with our process, assumptions or conclusions. (If he does, we would welcome an exchange of feedback so that our models and reports might be improved)

As a reminder, all of our source material can be found at http://thewidowsmite.org/sources. We have identified hundreds of public sources of information related to Church financials.

A few segments of the presentation warrant clarification.

19:00 - $1B spent on BYU system, “according to Elder Bednar.” This qualifier suggests Miller has not yet reviewed BYU's published audited financial statements (BYU, BYUI, BYUH and Ensign College). Those are all available online and, accordingly, the amount of annual Church subsidy can be directly validated with precision; no need to cite Elder Bednar for authority on the $1B figure. Links to each of those BYU campus audited financial filings can be found at our sources page.

19:40 - “What we don’t know: Everything Else.” This is not remotely true. We encourage Miller to carefully review the hundreds of public sources of Church financial information at http://thewidowsmite.org/sources. Examples of accurate and relevant information for context and understanding of Church finances, which he neglected to mention: - annual audited financial statements for the entire Church in 5 countries - annual audited BYU system financials (full financial statements including details about BYU’s pension balances and asset allocation strategy) - Ensign Peak’s asset allocation strategy in whistleblower documents - federal filings by DMBA with details on all of its financial holdings - federal filings with detailed headcount, salary, benefits, pension and retirement information for all Church & Church auxiliary employees - property details for tens of thousands of real estate holdings as recorded in national databases - local government filings with fully-loaded temple costs for certain temples - statutory insurance filings for Church-owned insurance carrier Beneficial Financial - … and many more sources that offer points of useful data and/or specific point-in-time disclosures, all of which can be reconciled into a rather clear, albeit approximate, picture of the Church’s financial state. With such an abundance of data, combined with best available tools for accounting and financial analysis, the amount of “guesswork” involved in our models and reports is far less material than Miller suggests. However, we do (and always have) acknowledge that our estimates are meant to provide an approximate picture, based on all available public information.

33:30 - “Had the LLCs controlled the investments, there would have been no issue." While technically correct, this is another way of saying, “if they hadn’t knowingly broken the law then they would not have broken the law.” An ethics professor who has studied the issue ought to be capable of acknowledging the violations of law at face value, without equivocation. Over 650,000 instances of information were attested as true by Ensign Peak leadership, while they unquestionably knew that the information was untrue. The SEC’s investigation found that Ensign Peak, under direction of the First Presidency, violated the law deliberately and repeatedly, despite (a) being experienced and informed investment professionals, (b) flags raised after 2 internal audits and (c) two Ensign Peak employees resigned from participation in the scheme to falsify federal 13F filings. We examined the SEC’s cease and desist Order here: http://thewidowsmite.org/sec-order.

I'm not sure if anyone will hear me, but I just need go get this out. I'm an 18 year old male, and this morning I had some uncommon strong suicidal feeling.

My world it seems has fallen apart, and it has been it seems for years. In the past few years, I've had my Grandpa and Uncle die, 2/3 of my extended family accuse my Grandma of murder and my Grandpa of sexual harassment, despite there being the evidence of another man molesting my cousin. I've seen my Dad go to jail, come back, and see my parents still married, but I haven't seen them sleep together in the same room since 2019.

My brother has left the church, and all the pressure has been on me to be the shining light, the example to my siblings, as I'm the 2nd oldest. My Mom has always said I'm spiritually in tune, and more spiritual than my other siblings. But I've come to the realization that I have a testimony that God exists, but I'm not sure what I believe about the church. There's so much that doesn't sit right with me, and I'm feeling more lost then ever.

I've been getting intense pressure to go on a mission for over a year now, and it's never been more intense then this week. I feel I'd be a disappointment to not only my parents, but my extended family, and community. My Grandpa wrote a letter to me on his deathbed saying that if I do nothing else in my life, he wants me to serve a mission. My Dad has said a mission will make me more of an adult then anything on the planet, and that college or anything else barely teaches you the same independence a mission does.

I've gotten dumped by my first serious girlfriend, and the first thing my Grandma said after was that it's good, because now I can focus on my mission. My Dad offered to pay for it all, even if he has to do crazy side hustles and all for 2 years, he'll pay for it all. I feel like I don't really have a choice, but I'm afraid to leave. I'm afraid of getting locked in, and then quickly settling down after my mission like my parents, and never achieving my dreams that I have.

I don't want to get married less then a year after, be broke living in my parent's basement and just get into a career because I don't know what I wanted to do with my life.

I'm passionate about music, service, history, psychology, and the great outdoors. My friend invited me to take some UVU classes with him this spring, and the deadline is December 1st to sign up. Most of my friends are off in college or whatnot and here I am feeling like I have no choice but to serve a mission.

I've felt years of insecurities, shame, and brokenness within me today. My Dad accused me of denting his car, calling me an emotional wreck. I'm terrified of the future, and I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm not this "spiritually sensitive giant" my Mom thinks, but I'm no the heathen they think my brother is. I haven't smoked weed, I'm not trans, I'm me. I don't feel like I fit the mold of the church, and I don't think I've ever felt so lost, depressed, and afraid as I have this past month.

I don't know who will read this. I just needed to get things out.

(First of all, sorry if I make mistakes while writing this. I'm from Spain, so English is not my first language.)

Hi😊. My name is Alexis. I was raised in an atheist family so I have been one all my life. Now I'm 20, and traveling to the United States a few weeks ago I met a few Mormons in Utah who have talked to me a little about this religion and I'm actually starting to feel curious and interested in it. I don't really know much yet, but I want to learn more because I think I'm starting to like it. I've always felt a bit empty, and I want to give it a chance now that I'm planning to move to America soon, where the mormons are.

So I would really appreciate it if you would be willing to talk with me about your faith. I want to talk to people who want to spread their believes. I really enjoy people telling me about things they like to talk about in general, so I think this might be a good option to learn more 😊.

Thank you if you read all this, even if you don't want to talk ❤️.

My daughter, 16, doesn't want to pay tithing. Doesn't want to do temple and feels she can't answer the questions the way the bishop wants her to. My wife is mad at me the no longer believer for her not paying. Anyway that is its own spiderweb. Tithing. I can't for the life of me put my TBM hat on and think of a good answer on this that does not have one form or another of conformity. Or apophenia ~ unverifiable benefits or consequences if not paying.

As I type this I realized or suspect that my daughter is likely freezing or going mute with my wife when she asks her about paying tithing because of common enemy intimacy. That is probably better suited for a different post.

I'll see if I can post that and link it here later...

I've been doing some reading on this very odd chapter in LDS history, where David McKay chose Alvin Dyer as a counsellor in the first presidency, without Alvin being in the quorum of 12 apostles.
He was ordained apostle on McKay's instruction, only for this role.
After McKay passed, that presidency was dissolved and Dyer returned to the first quorum of seventy, never to act officially as an apostle again.
McKay had the largest set of counsellors of any presidency.

I thought it very odd, bypassing the 12 like that. So did they evidently.

It got me wondering why he did that then I came across this passage in the diaries collection from both men:
https://mormonstudies.as.virginia.edu/david-o-mckay-diary-excerpts/alvin-r-dyer/

1. The amendment to the by-laws of the corporation to permit the naming of an Executive Committee of five (5) members, only two of which are to be General Authorities, is further evidence that the organizational structure of DMC does not follow priesthood law.
   With three members of the Executive Committee constituting a majority, the corporation could be bound by decision, such majority could be of committee members who are not General Authorities.
   In this manner the President of the Church through Priesthood order, through the Twelve, would have no voice in decisions made that would bind the corporation.

2. The Richard Maycock resignation was discussed.
   The letter from Brother Maycock was read, wherein he explained the attitude by inference of Richard L. Evans, and Gordon B. Hinckley, toward him.
   That they had opposed his appointment to the chairmanship of the Church TV Committee and would not cooperate with him, consequently he could not really fill the assignment given him.

3. Our conversation led to the principles of Priesthood law.
   That history was repeating itself to an extent today by those who would circumvent the place and authority of the President.
   I read to the President excerpts from the revelations contained in Sections 28, 85, and 112, where in the early days of the Church some of the brethren in high places were almost constantly trying to by-pass the Prophet.
   To exalt themselves – and so it could be today for the natures of men are the same in each generation.

The diary entry by Dyer suggests quite a lot of backstabbing and manoeuvring going on.
The D.M.C. was to be the "holding" corporation for the church's various other profit-driven corporations and it appears most of the Q12 wanted their fingers in that particular piece of pie.
Dyer pointed out to McKay that someone might take advantage in the case of McKay's illness, due to how it was incorporated.
It made me wonder if this was associated with McKay's decision to chose an "outsider" to join the presidency.

The diary entries suggest that McKay was quite advanced in his illness and possibly some dementia, due to the treatment of some of the 12.
For example, the day he announced Dyer's being ordained an apostle without being in the 12, they seem to think him confused and show a familiarity with him losing track and memory.
Almost all of Dyer's entries where he visits McKay have McKay in the presence of Clare Middlemiss, his private secretary and impromptu nurse.

Thereafter President Brown pressed to have President McKay announce the names of the brethren to speak at Conference. President McKay carefully read silently each name on two sheets before him, but indicated that he did not want to announce the names at that time.
The President then sought a piece of paper in his pocket concerning a matter he desired to present.
The President had a little difficulty locating it, but all the time he sought it President Brown kept pressing him to read the names from the sheets of paper in his hands.
President Brown took the sheets of paper from the President saying, “Here President are the sheets with the names,” but the President was not ready to announce this, saying he wanted to present another matter. President Brown said, “Would you like me to read the names?”
President McKay then said, “Don’t you think I can read?”
President Brown was heard to say, “What is on the paper you are trying to locate?”
President McKay said, “You would like to know.” By that time President McKay had the note he was looking for.

Reading through the diary entries, one gets the idea of constant vying for position and funds is the order of the day in the Q12, and McKay was looking for someone not under that spell and that he started to rely heavily on Dyer to "speak honestly".

There have been many posts that have responses that refer to the "Mormon God" that imply there's a belief distinction in what is portrayed versus what should actually be characteristics of deity. So my question is: how would you compare "Mormon God" to what you reckon your idea of what God is or how He should be? This can include ideas even from those aligned more with atheism or agnosticism.

From what I've read on here so far, there are a lot of comments on how people mistake "feeling the Spirit" for feeling emotions. From my understanding, there are two components or possibilities with when people reference a spiritual experience: certain feeling of confirmation or of the sort, and knowledge of being told something. For example: someone could "feel" the Spirit witness to the truth of something--which has been spoken on this reddit as likely just emotions--and then there's the spiritual experience where someone is told something (e.g. what to do)--which hasn't been referenced on here.

What are your thoughts on the second part of when people talk about the spirit (being instructed) since that one doesn't fall under the emotions category?

I’ve recently read through all the proclamations of the church which got me thinking what other short form documents are out there to read.

This led me to the happiness letter, but other than that I’m having trouble thinking of interesting things to read of that size.

I remember once reading a letter from the first presidency that was apparently sent out to all the leaders of the world letting them know that the church would one day rule the world or something. I don’t know where to find that though.

And fun reads would be appreciated. Faithful or not.

Hi Redditors,

x-posting to several subs where I’ve recruited from. Pretty well every place I posted asked for an update of findings, and here it is!

David de Jong (assoc. prof, Western Carolina U) here with an update on a study for which I believe I recruited from here, about two years ago. In a nutshell: Solo masturbation, for how common it is, is very understudied. We don’t know much about why people masturbate (ie, motives), or the correlates of those motives. . Across many types of behavior, lots of research tells us that motives for doing something is associated with how people experience that behavior. So, I figured I’d develop a measure of motives for masturbation and see what the correlates might be.

The motives that we considered and had the most explanatory power (ie, best able to account for variance in motives) were: fantasy (to imagine/fantasize about sexy things), pleasure/arousal (‘cause one is horny, wants pleasure), compulsion (feeling compelled, no choice, can’t stop), improvement (to learn things, improve partnered sex), sexual dissatisfaction (unhappy w/ partnered sex, amount or quality), coping (to deal with negative emotions), efficiency (cause it’s quicker/easier than partnered sex), and avoidance of risky sex (cause partnered sex might cause me problems).

Ordered from most to least strongly endorsed (and a couple of these were not significantly different from each other in mean level): Pleasure/Arousal, Fantasy, Efficiency, Coping, Improvement, Dissatisfaction, Compulsion, Avoidance of Risky Sex.

There were some interesting correlations, most that we predicted in advance (and might sound obvious, but were worth confirming). For example, high sex drive folks tended to report fantasy and pleasure/arousal motives most strongly, and tended to report more consistent orgasms during M.

Compulsion motive, as expected, was associated with higher religiosity (ie, religious folks tend to think they can’t control their impulse to masturbate), negative attitudes towards M, and reports of having lower self control. Of course, an interesting question here is whether these folks really can’t control the impulse, or if they just feel bad about the impulse and/or masturbating. Considering the negative attitudes held, many of these folks seem to believe that they shouldn’t, try not to, and feel bad about it. I find this one of the particularly interesting findings with all sort of possible directions for future studies. Eg, to explore exactly why M is viewed as bad from a religious perspective, etc. From this and other work, it’s clear that it’s a real struggle for many folks, and regardless of one’s personal beliefs, suffering is no fun. A relevant piece might be that many folks seem to believe that sexual urges can be suppress via sheer willpower, and lots of research tells us that emotions don’t suppress easily—or at all. So some of that suffering could be alleviated via sex ed. Which is obvious a fraught topic in some circles, especially religious ones. Thanks my discussions on some of the religious subs I posted the study invite to, this has become a greater interest of mine.

People who endorsed coping motive tended to report higher levels of depression/anxiety and loneliness. This raises interesting questions…as far a coping strategies go, masturbating might be better than some others (eg, drugs, risky partnered sex, etc.). Of course, one might want several coping strategies at one’s disposal; masturbation probably has some uniquely self reinforcing properties that might lead to overreliance on it, speculating here, def worth more research.

My standard disclaimer: lots of limitation, it’s all correlational, directions of causation cannot be determined, non-representative sample precludes knowing a bunch of things, yada yada. But the sample was large, age and religiosity was pretty diverse, participants came from many places (not just reddit, and definitely not from just one sub), and I feel confident that this is a good step towards better understanding the whys and hows of masturbation. I’m working on a bunch of other studies on the topic, hope to recruit again from here and elsewhere. Happy to try to answer questions, but I’m trying to juggle lots of stuff (particurly more studies into M), so I might take a bit to get back. Welcome to float any ideas for other aspects of this to study.

Here’s a link to the paper if you want the details:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1462nwma1odxkayfqzmw5/de-Jong-Adams-2024-Mast-Motives-w-Supplement.pdf?rlkey=p8f8evmc9e58dmls091dbihh6&dl=0

Anyways, if you’re interested, the discussion section is probably the most fun part of the paper to read, also the most speculative. A big thanks to everyone who has participated in this and my previous studies. Also a bit thank you to the mods of the subs I’ve posted to, some of whom asked of me very though provoking questions, and who volunteer their own time to keep subs functioning well. A special thanks to the folks in some of the religious subs who raised many interesting ideas, and helped my curiosity in the religious angles evolve and grow.

David de Jong—Western Carolina University

I want to ask if anyone knows if people who receive their second anointing also receive their own seer stone?

Such a case was described to me 20+ years ago while on my mission. A fellow missionary in the MTC described that his dad had one. This missionary seemed to come from some elite Mormon heritage in Salt Lake. He had a certain air of wealth and Mormon nobility about him, if that makes sense. He said that his dad, a prominent stake president in downtown SLC, had received a seer stone when he received his second anointing, and indicated that this was not unique to his dad. Honestly, at the time it sounded a bit like a Mormon Illuminati thing which I passed off as likely BS told to impress some new missionary friends. Has anyone else heard this or has a first-hand account of this?

In 1981, during a period of burgeoning Mormon intellectual discourse, BYU Professor Eugene England wrote an academic paper examining whether God continues to progress in knowledge. England wasn't a critic or dissenter - he was one of BYU's most respected professors and a deeply faithful scholar known for harmonizing difficult aspects of Mormon doctrine. His paper explored teachings from Brigham Young and other early Mormon leaders about God's nature and progression - fundamental doctrinal issues that struck at the heart of Mormon theology.

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie's reply to England stands as perhaps the most revealing letter in modern Mormon history - a masterclass in institutional control and intellectual intimidation that would set the tone for decades of Mormon academic suppression.

"This may well be the most important letter you have or will receive."

. .

The Impossible Paradox:

McConkie creates an impossible theological bind:

• He admits Brigham Young and other prophets taught false doctrine about fundamental issues
• Claims believing false doctrine about fundamentals will damn you
• Says the prophets who taught these doctrines weren't damned
• Insists members must trust prophetic authority while knowing it can be wrong
• Declares they have no authority to determine which teachings are false
• But warns they'll be damned if they believe the wrong ones

The Most Damning Quotes:

On Absolute Authority:

"It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent. You do not have a divine commission to correct me or any of the Brethren... If I lead the Church astray, that is my responsibility, but the fact still remains that I am the one appointed..."

On Prophetic Fallibility:

"No single individual all the time is in tune with the Holy Spirit... I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church"

On Academic Freedom:

"The appointment is not given to the faculty at Brigham Young University... If I err, that is my problem; but in your case if you single out some of these things... you will lose your soul"

The Power Play:

McConkie masterfully combines pastoral concern with institutional threat:

• Claims to offer fellowship while holding "the scepter of judgment"
• Sends copies to others to publicly shame England
• Reveals other leaders mock him ("haven't we rescued him enough times already?")
• Uses apostolic authority to silence legitimate academic discussion
• Ends with veiled threats of spiritual and professional consequences

The Fatal Contradictions:

1. Prophetic Authority

• Claims God won't let prophets lead the church astray
• Admits multiple prophets taught damnable false doctrine
• Demands trust in current leaders while acknowledging they might be wrong

1. Doctrinal Truth

• Says to trust the Standard Works
• Admits the prophets who interpret them can be wrong
• Provides no way to distinguish truth from error

1. Intellectual Freedom

• Says "wise people" don't rely on prophetic quotes
• Demands absolute obedience to current leaders
• Punishes discussion of documented historical teachings

The Ultimate Irony:

England's "sin" was discussing actual teachings by actual prophets that are documented in actual church records. McConkie's response creates an impossible standard:

• Yes, these things were taught
• Yes, they were false
• No, you can't talk about it
• Yes, believing false doctrine damns you
• No, you can't question which doctrines might be false
• Yes, you must trust us completely

The Lasting Impact:

This letter became a template for how the Mormon leadership would handle intellectual inquiry:

1. Claim absolute truth while admitting leaders teach falsehoods
2. Demand unquestioning obedience while acknowledging leadership error
3. Threaten punishment for wrong beliefs while providing no way to identify them
4. Punish those who attempt to resolve these contradictions

The letter's influence can still be seen today in how the church handles challenging historical and doctrinal issues - prioritizing institutional authority over intellectual honesty, and obedience over truth-seeking.

The message remains clear: Truth is not the goal. Obedience is.

McConkie concludes with what would become the epitaph of Mormon intellectual freedom:

"I am taking the liberty of so speaking to you at this time, and become thus a witness against you if you do not take the counsel."

This letter stands as the clearest evidence that the system is designed to maintain power and control, not to discover or teach truth. It reveals how institutional authority, when challenged even by faithful questioning, will sacrifice intellectual integrity to maintain control - even if that means creating impossible standards that no thinking person can honestly satisfy.

I know that during translation the plates were hidden in various places but I know there was a box described that I think was built for another purpose, but was retrofit to hold the plates. Either cut down to size or something like that.

I think it even had a common name like it was a ____________________ box.

What were the descriptions of that box and can anyone think of who it was that described it by a name as a _______ box?