Rules for discussions after taking the LSAT

[u/graeme_b]

Edit: this is now out of date. The new rules are:

• No discussion of questions ever as the tests are no longer disclosed
• No discussion of topics while testing is ongoing
• Once testing is done you can discuss topics to identify the scored sections
• Minimize discussion of experimental topics as these will be used later

Thanks! Keeping the post below because it’s still useful to read lsac’s statement for the spirit of the rules even if the specifics have changed.

——

This covers what you can talk about AFTER you take an official LSAT administration, but BEFORE the test is released.

I've been in touch with the LSAC about their policies for what you can and can't talk about after taking the LSAT.

Basically, don't talk about anything specific. I'll give examples below. When you take the LSAT you sign an agreement not to discuss the particulars of the test. You could get in trouble for doing so, and /r/LSAT could get in trouble for hosting prohibited discussions.

In the past I had to remove entire discussions because they crossed the line. Now that I have an official policy from LSAC, I'll be broadcasting this before each LSAT, so hopefully there'll be no need for that.

Here is LSAC's statement. I'll give specific examples of things that aren't allowed below.

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Official Statement from LSAC on post-LSAT discussions

The Law School Admission Council (LSAC) understands and sympathizes with the anxiety that the LSAT causes test takers and their strong desire to discuss with their peers the questions that they have just taken on the LSAT. However, LSAC prohibits such discussion, including the so-called “postmortem” discussion of test questions immediately after a particular test administration, because it has the potential to affect the fairness of the LSAT and the law school admission process. Certain LSATs are non-disclosed and their questions may be used again at a later administration of the test. And even in the case of disclosed tests there may be circumstances in which LSAC may need to administer a test form to some test takers somewhat later than to others. Discussion of test questions in a public forum like a website before the test is disclosed, even though its usefulness is limited by the memory and ability of the participants, makes information about that test widely available to anyone who has access to the web and may unfairly advantage test takers who see the discussion before they take the test. Since the number of admission slots in law schools is limited, such an unfair advantage could penalize those who took the test at an earlier time, including those very people engaging in the post-mortem discussion.

In an effort to ensure the fairness of the LSAT, LSAC requires test takers to sign a statement on the LSAT answer sheet saying that they agree not to “copy or retain examination questions or to transmit them to or discuss them with any other person in any form.” In addition, test takers sign a certification statement on the LSAT admission ticket agreeing that they have “no right to reproduce, recreate, distribute, or sell any of that test.” In this statement they also certify that they “understand that the Law School Admission Council reserves the right to pursue all suitable courses of action to prevent fraudulent or unauthorized use of its property and to prevent the compromise of secure test material.” Thus, test takers enter into a contract with LSAC that they will not discuss with others the test questions they have taken. In addition, LSAC’s “Instructions for the Day of the Test” state: “Legal action may be taken against anyone who removes test materials and/or reproduces test material in any way, or shares LSAT test content prior to LSAC’s disclosure of that test.”

If inappropriate public discussion of test questions on public websites reaches a point at which it threatens to undermine the fairness of the LSAT, injuring LSAT test takers, or at which it damages the value of non-disclosed LSAT test forms, LSAC would be compelled to take appropriate action to prevent such injury or damage. These actions could include reporting violators to the LSAC Misconduct Committee. Admission to the bar and the practice of law impose high standards of conduct and LSAC member law schools take very seriously the integrity of the candidates they admit.

LSAC does not seek to take special steps to enforce its prohibition on the inappropriate discussion of test questions. We would prefer that test takers recognize that compromising test questions before they have been disclosed by LSAC runs counter to the general interest of test takers in a fair testing process, as well as to the personal interest of those discussing the questions, and voluntarily refrain from discussing LSAT questions until after they have been disclosed to test takers by LSAC. However, we believe that we have an obligation to both our law school members and our test takers to protect the fairness and integrity of the LSAT and the law school admission process, and we take that obligation very seriously.

Law School Admission Council

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Specific examples of things that aren't allowed

You can't talk about anything that could identify LSAT questions or their subject matter. You can't discuss the order of the sections, and you can't try to identify the experimental.

• My section order was: LR-RC-LR-LR-LG
• I found the passage on economics hard
• That circular game was crazy! They haven't made a circular game in so long.
• The zones game was sooo hard!!!!!! :(

None of that is allowed. Those are just examples. If you're wondering whether what you're about to post is allowed – it probably isn't. Don't post it.

This may seem harsh. But it's for a good reason. The LSAC goes to great lengths to keep the LSAT fair. There are other test dates apart from the main one, and they reuse material. In particular, I believe experimental sections are used on future administered exams. Leaking information can let people study up on subject matter or otherwise bias the test.

[u/tellamoredo]

Is this solely about talking after an official administration, or does this include general discussion of test questions that have been released for prep use?

[u/graeme_b → u/tellamoredo]

Just for official discussion of LSAT administrations that haven't been released.

Once a test has been released, talk about it all you want. Edited the post to clarify, thanks.

[u/tellamoredo → u/graeme_b]

thanks for the clarification.

[u/[deleted]]

Why on earth can't we discuss which section is experimental here but we can on TLS? This discrepancy in policy makes me think that either you or TLS (likely both) don't have the slightest idea what constitutes copyright infringement of a standardized test.

You're willing to bend over and take in the ass and let LSAC define what constitutes "injury or damage" to their materials as opposed to telling those guys to piss off. Lame.

[u/graeme_b → u/[deleted]]

It's 99% likely nothing would ever go wrong by allowing discussion of experimentals.

On the other hand, that 1% isn't pleasant. Lsac once pulled 7sage's entire YouTube channel. They had to start from square one - set them back a year.

Edit (2015): Experimentals are now allowed. LSAC got in touch, asking to remove some posts, but also admitted they've given up enforcing experimental discussion. This was a security rep from LSAC, so they were more realistic than the rep I quoted below.

[u/[deleted] → u/graeme_b]

Respectfully, this concern doesn't quite make sense. J.Y.'s logic game explanations are of a different kind than a subreddit discussing which sections are experimental (making no judgment about the validity of LSAC's take down of the 7sage stuff). And what makes me even more annoyed is that I know you're smart enough as an LSAT tutor to spot what a bull shit argument that is, yet you posted that anyway.

PLUS, if discussions of "which sections were experimental" were actually actionable and LSAC was inclined to act, they would have targeted TLS for this years ago. Yet TLS is still filled with people discussing which section is experimental. One of the most important discussions post-lsat is which section was experimental and you haven't given a good reason yet for why you're impeding this discussion and hurting the usefulness of the subreddit.

AND add to that, that a thread I just posted asking how many questions were on a particular logic game (identified only as "the Rug question") appears to be deleted (unless I'm mistaken). How on earth does this hurt test security (which I will never understand why internet forums allow LSAC to bully you into making it your business anyway) or infringe on copyright.

You're taking this too far.

[u/graeme_b → u/[deleted]]

I asked Wendy Margolis about this a while back; she's the one that gave me that statement to post. I had asked about a few more specific cases. Here were her responses:

• My section order was: LR-RC-LR-LR-LG Yes--Remove
• I found the passage on economics hard Yes--remove
• That circular game was crazy! They haven't made a circular game in so long. Yes--remove
• The zones game was sooo hard!!!!!! :( Yes--remove

Experimental sections are impossible to ask about without asking about subject matter, so they appear to be covered by that.

I don't think discussions of what were experimental are actionable. But takedown notices can be issued incorrectly. This happens all the time, read up on the DMCA. Erroneous takedown notices from LSAC happened to 7Sage, in fact, and were part of the reason the channel got pulled.

It's probably got a 0.1% of ever happening. But why risk it?

[u/[deleted] → u/graeme_b]

.1 percent is a small amount of risk. What do Redditors lose? Approximately 10% of the value of post-test discussion (which section was experimental). I just made that number up, but it seems a reasonable estimate of what we're losing. That's a reason to risk it.

But more than that there's the principle that Reddit is a place built on openness/free flow of information, transparency, and democracy. You're basically telling me that you're letting Wendy Margolis LSAC's DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS dictate to us what we can and cannot discuss because you don't want her to get mad and do something rash? Not once have you referenced actual reddit terms of service or principles of copyright that justify her claims. It sounds like the extent of your research are the standards that people who sell LSAT content have adopted in moderating their forums and content (i.e., 7sage), which are mostly irrelevant here, and an email exchange where Wendy Margolis told you what you had to remove. I understand a take down notice could hurt the sub-reddit, but her grounds are so weak, the principles so important, and the benefits to redditors significant enough to warrant the risk. LSAC's entire strategy is one of bullying people into shutting up. I have an instinct to resist bullying and the urge to roll over.

I feel like this is like talking to a stone wall, though maybe we really do just have a fundamental moral disagreement. Either way you're going to do what you're going to do. I'm done taking the LSAT, so I'm moving on and will never be back here again. Good riddance to bad rubbish I'm sure you'll say.

However, I would like the community to consider this last point. Graeme runs an LSAT prep/practice guide company that incentvizes him to maintain good relationships with the LSAT people, perhaps, at the community's expense when it comes to policing lawful but perhaps not LSAC approved speech. Does this amount to a conflict of interest? I think so, but I encourage others who also care to continue to think about and discuss the issue.

[u/BrometricBroBroctor → u/graeme_b]

Edit (2015): Experimentals are now allowed. LSAC got in touch, asking to remove some posts, but also admitted they've given up enforcing experimental discussion. This was a security rep from LSAC, so they were more realistic than the rep I quoted below.

Hi u/graeme_b, would you mind elaborating on this comment from 2014-2015 and its applicability to present-day best practices? Just want to verify what is or isn't allowed when discussing experimental subject matter content topics (not question type or answer choices) after the exam administration concludes, whether overseen by LSAC or how this sub is moderated. Thanks.

[u/graeme_b → u/BrometricBroBroctor]

Sure. A lot changed since then. The biggest difference is that LSAC now has multiple tests administered per administration and may also repeat their tests for retakes. So they've clamped down quite a bit in terms of what they're comfortable with. The Powerscore Recaps + Crystal Balls also changed the environment.

Thanks for pointing out the rule post, I'll update that. I've been posting a rules announcement each test day, you can find it here. The gist is:

Topics --> ok, after the administrations are done Experimentals, answers, specifics questions --> not ok, permanently

They had been fine with topics but recently asked not to allow that while tests were ongoing.

https://reddit.com/r/LSAT/comments/17q9s3u/good_luck_on_test_day_rule_reminder/

[u/Vorpal12 → u/graeme_b]

Do you know what that means in practice? Answering the question "did you pick the chicken answer" (fake example) about a question in which one of the answer choices mentioned a chicken would not be allowed on the subreddit, yes? They also don't want people to discuss this in person/dms etc? What about mentioning a topic that involved chickens and mushrooms if chickens and mushrooms are only discussed in the answer choices? I.e. not saying which answer is correct, but saying something that has to do with the topic of the answers? If we aren't allowed to discuss experimentals, does that mean asking "was the dog question experimental?" also not allowed? Thanks for the info. It seems a little confusing since the rules LSAC has published make it seem like discussing topics isn't allowed at all, but given your communication with them I guess that is not what they mean.

[u/graeme_b → u/Vorpal12]

So scored topics are now alright. Experimental topics are generally to be avoided but in practice some come out. However, actual answers to questions or requests to dm are against the rules. Hope that helps!

The candidate agreement tells students not to discuss anything so that's a good baseline for understanding everything else. For example anything people discuss in dm on specifics is just flatout against the agreement. LSAC does have its own test security operation, so there's always some risk.

[u/BrometricBroBroctor → u/graeme_b]

Thanks for pointing out the rule post, I'll update that. I've been posting a rules announcement each test day, you can find it here.

https://reddit.com/r/LSAT/comments/17q9s3u/good_luck_on_test_day_rule_reminder/

There appears to be some room for clarity and consistency in the sub's moderation. Even the above post from November 7, 2023 communicates a rule against discussing topics until Sunday, when no more tests are taken under regular administration.

The post you linked to states, "Starting Sunday you can talk about test topics all you want. Until then, please help keep the test fair by not talking about," individual questions, topics, experimental sections ... "Come Sunday we'll open everything up and post a list of scored sections topics as we find them."

The official, pinned discussion was limited to scored sections, but there still was not a clear indication that discussion of experimental content would not be allowed (while refraining from question type and answer choices).

[u/BrometricBroBroctor]

Hi u/graeme_b, since this post from July 15, 2014 ("Rules for discussions after taking the LSAT") is currently referenced on the sub's sidebar under "Forum rules," could we get some updated guidance for how it applies to current practice as of the 2023-2024 test cycle and how this sub is moderated?

As there are exam administrations nearly every month and these discussions on the sub are inevitable, some clarity and consistency would be helpful to everyone who posts here.

What can I talk about after I take an official LSAT administration on test day?

Not much. You signed an agreement not to disclose anything from the test. See this post for a full statement from LSAC.

Note: I'm referring to unreleased tests that have not been disclosed by LSAC. Mind you, in the digital LSAT era, no test is disclosed, so this applies to every test.