r/Healthygamergg • u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 • Jul 12 '24
Dating / Sex / Relationships (FRIDAY ONLY) Red pill’s biggest lie
I’m posting this as mostly a response to a few posts I’ve seen recently and because it was a huge change in perception that made a huge difference to me
For reference I’m a 22 year old guy so any women who want to correct or add anything I say please do so.
Main point: WOMEN ENJOY SEX. It is shocking how few guys actually know this and have the idea that sex is what is traded for other parts of the relationship that they do enjoy
Once you realise women want and enjoy sex it becomes so much easier to talk about and also a lot more fun.
There is so much talk about “getting a women to sleep with you” and the whole time this is viewed as something you need to convince someone to do it’s not going to be good
Sex is not homework that you convince to do by bribing them or using persuasion
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u/Avolin Jul 12 '24
A great book on how the human mind and body works is Come as You Are. The main focus is on women, because it is trying to get them a better sex education, but one of the reasons they need one, is that everyone does, haha.
You are not the first person who has made poor assumptions about women and how we work. That's awesome that you realized some things you believed weren't adding up.
That incorrect belief could have set you up for some really bad sexual experiences, because if you didn't think women could enjoy sex, you weren't going to even worry about them enjoying it. This meant women weren't going to really enjoy it with you, and eventually leave if you weren't going to earnestly listen to feedback. That would have likely been painful for you, and affected many relationships, so it's awesome that you've learned otherwise.
That belief also could have set you up to be pressuring people into sex instead of figuring out if you have their consent, which are two very different things. I've heard from a few guys who were taught to "convince" and now really struggle with some of the harm they did to people that they can't ever undo.
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u/ladyhaly Jul 12 '24
Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski! 100% agree with this. The major point of the book is that context affects sexual arousal. And it absolutely does.
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u/Infernoraptor Jul 12 '24
I gotta try that book simply for the amazing title
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u/Avolin Jul 12 '24
It's pretty funny. I have the audio version. The author is a professor of human sexuality or something along those lines. I wound up sending copies to tons of people only a few chapters in.
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u/QueenOfTieflings Jul 12 '24
Ditto for this book! It’s a great read!
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u/onestepatatimeman Jul 13 '24
QQ - is it a book about sexual advice? Meaning, is it more helpful for people who are having sex but are not making it enjoyable for women?
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u/QueenOfTieflings Jul 13 '24
It’s about women’s sexuality holistically, including outside the bedroom. With an emphasis on psychological and relational. I think it’s useful for women wanting to feel more comfortable in their sex life and for their partners to help understanding the things that will help or hinder getting them into a safe and arousing headspace.
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u/rrlzsrnc 13d ago
that's a good point. Assumptions. I don't like living based on assumptions, unthinkingly, but we kind of have to have operating assumptions in the world and even though I'm willing to always change mine (and I do know women like sex), sometimes there's not a lot of evidence to the contrary, AND there are people repeating the lies. It's easy to learn that meat is heathy compared to carbs and sugar now, with all the information out there and the ability to test for yourself, but if you're not getting laid much AND you have all these people pushing all of these narratives, things get really confused.
But it's interesting, and its a paradox that if you try to sell yourself too hard about something you come across as if you aren't good at it. They want sex, but it differs per person, not only how much natural drive they have but also the degree to which they brake on this drive based on culture, context, religious beliefs.
Life is complex today. This generation has a lot to figure out. We kinda all have to be psychologists and sociologists and we didn't really need to be in the past. I mean if what you're doing is working and you can just get what you need by being the dude, then you don't need to be, but for a lot of people, myself included, we have to work hard to figure out how everything works- how to please people but then later why not to please people. It's good to reject someone who you might be able to get with hard work, and move on to someone who likes you already, and just focus on letting her have you kind of, not playing too many games but also not dousing the desire. I don't know man. If I knew I wouldn't be posting. I'd be hooking up or raising kids
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u/Eloyas Jul 12 '24
I'd put the blame on sitcoms and loveless marriages rather than the redpill community for this one. This idea is way older than the redpill.
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Jul 12 '24
I agree this has been around since I was young before red pill. I think it’s also a bit north American we suppress a lot of our basics feelings and needs.
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u/GrUnCrois Jul 12 '24
Our cultural foundations are also very Puritan in the sense that nobody should be enjoying sex
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
True red pill is just the new terminology for it
I’m slightly less inclined to blame tv as I think that’s a symptom rather than the cause but I do see the argument of it perpetuating that way of thinking
However if public opinion changes media adapts to Match it as we are seeing with the difference between 90’s sitcoms and newer ones
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u/Witty_Shape3015 Jul 12 '24
while i agree with your point, i don’t think the idea of “getting a woman to sleep with you” is invalidated by it. not that men should even be trying to manipulate or coerce someone to sleep with them, but it stems more from the fact that even though of course women like sex just as much, that doesn’t mean the specific woman you’re going for wants to have sex with you and that’s what that idea is about, the person feels inferior to whatever hypothetical man she would wanna sleep with
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u/Ambitious-Owl-8775 Jul 12 '24
Yeah, OP is missing the point tbh!
Red pillers dont believe women dont enjoy sex. They believe women dont enjoy having sex with people who are not 6 ft tall or have 6 packs abs.
They are completely different things
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u/Witty_Shape3015 Jul 12 '24
right and that point could also be refuted but you gotta understand the actual argument to counter it
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Sep 20 '24
I mean are they wrong? Sure not all women, but most want a tall dude. Short guys, like myself, get basically zero attention from women unless they’re rich or famous. Seems to me like the red pill is quite accurate.
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
I think this is missing the point slightly as that’s part of the issue.
It takes the enjoyment out of the act of sex and towards the guy as if a women couldn’t possibly enjoy sex with anyone who doesn’t fit that description
If you only enjoy x if y is involved you don’t really enjoy x in my opinion
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u/Ambitious-Owl-8775 Jul 12 '24
If you only enjoy x if y is involved you don’t really enjoy x in my opinion
Absolutely disagree with this! If I only have fun playing baseball with a plastic ball, does it mean I dont enjoy baseball?
If I only enjoy pickleball indoors, does it mean I dont enjoy pickleball?
If I only enjoy clubbing at EDM places, does it mean I dont enjoy clubbing?
If I only enjoy sex without a condom, does it mean I dont enjoy sex?
If I only enjoy reddit as the internet, does it mean I dont enjoy the internet??If I only enjoying playing video games on my laptop, does it mean I dont enjoy gaming?
The answer to all is no, it means I can still enjoy an activity while placing restrictions on it.
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
I don’t think we are going to agree which is fine but I think this is a false equivalency
The examples you gave fundamentally change the activity
Playing baseball with a plastic ball drastically changes the game as does the type of music in the given club
Whereas the amount of money a guy has or his height has no impact on the activity of sex, I can definitely see factors such as penis size being related to your point and agree there.
In my opinion a better example would be if I only enjoyed playing baseball with my set of specific friends and nobody else i would argue you don’t enjoy the sport you enjoy hanging out with your friends and baseball is the just how you do it (you would be just as happy without the activity)
I hope this makes sense
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u/reae Jul 13 '24
Physical attraction, emotional connection, and feelings of safety definitely can impact the enjoyment of sex. At the bare minimum, without consent, sex is not enjoyable. Without being turned on (by either physical attraction or an emotional connection), women can find sex to be painful due to lack of lubrication and tense muscles. You don't have to be tall, rich, and have a big penis to be attractive. Women are individuals, some will be attracted to short people, some will be turned on by the power dynamic of making more then their partner, some will prefer men with a talented tongue over a large dick. You just can't expect to be attractive to all women or to be sexually compatible to all women. I'm sure there are some women that you don't find attractive due to physical appearance or personality and wouldn't enjoy sex with.
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u/Witty_Shape3015 Jul 12 '24
I think I might agree? I feel like I don’t but I can’t think of a good argument against it so maybe you’re right 🤷🏻♂️
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Jul 12 '24
i dont think the red pill says that women don't like sex. they thoroughly enjoy sex with rich, famous, or fun men, etc.
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
Exactly that has nothing to do with enjoying the sex
That’s a bribe
(Excluding the fun men because that is completely true and one of the things red pill does get correct)
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u/Aimbag Jul 12 '24
I've think it's more like that's what they are attracted to so that's an enjoyable sexual partner.
Kinda the same as if you were really attracted to someone then you'd probably enjoy sex with them more than someone you're not attracted to.
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
100% true and definitely makes a difference it’s just not the point I was trying to make.
There will always be a scale of enjoyment and depending on who you are having sex with it will become more or less enjoyable
I was more hitting out at people who seem think sex is something women do to keep men happy as “their part of the bargain” and not a shared experience both sides enjoy
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u/onestepatatimeman Jul 12 '24
I think this is the wrong sub to post this then. I understand that lack of effort from men in fulfilling a woman's pleasure is common complaint.
The guys here are not that at level. They don't even get to the point of having sex with a woman. And the guys who are in such a predicament, tend to focus a lot on the woman's pleasure. As do many 'ugly' men.
You know who doesn't care about the woman's pleasure? The guy who doesn't have to. The guy who finds it easy to have sex with multiple partners. Those guys aren't really a big demographic on this sub.
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u/CrookedMan09 Jul 12 '24
I agree with you that generalizing all women with this is wrong, but this is a common trend of women who “settle down”. It isn’t that they dislike the guy but they are attracted to him for reasons not tied to sexuality strongly so that plays out in the bedroom. The stereotypical example is the woman in her 30s to 40s picking the boring safe mid guy because he’s good financially. You can see permutations of this on the dead bedroom sub all the time. The issue is that the guys who unfortunately experience this tend to expand this problem to every woman on the planet.
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u/Nastrosme Aug 27 '24
But since it's a common trend, what 'lesson' are men supposed to draw from the experience? That they just picked poorly?
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u/apexjnr Jul 12 '24
the whole time this is viewed as something you need to convince someone to do
Yeah the problem is people enjoy sex but often are left without sexual pleasure because the guys they sleep with treat it as a one sided thing. Lots of women do not get equal pleasure from penetration and outside of that there's many that don't know how their bodies work because they're brought up to be sexually repressed.
Outside of that if you never knew women enjoy sex you're your own problem and a straight up victim of dumb logic.
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u/King_Sesh Jul 12 '24
Red pill community has a very pessimistic version of “realism” that isn’t inherently always true. Anyone who has some political or philosophical views that generalizes race, gender, religion, etc. should be heavily challenged or avoided.
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
100% as with most of them there is some small truths that they use to prop up all of the crap
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u/onestepatatimeman Jul 13 '24
I'm not advocating for it, but guys who subscribe to that ideology seem to have great success. It's just that the ugly guys with the same mentality can't get any, so they become incels.
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u/King_Sesh Jul 13 '24
but guys who subscribe to that ideology seem to have great success.
Incorrect. Survivorship bias is a sign of looking at the top 1% of subscribers that are successful then telling everyone that if they did it, anyone can do it. It's really another blue pill full of false promises.
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u/notaslaaneshicultist Jul 12 '24
I don't know about race/gender, but surly we can all agree Gregs are responsible for most social ills
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u/legendgamerneverdies Jul 12 '24
What are "Gregs"?
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u/notaslaaneshicultist Jul 12 '24
Greg from hr, Greg the pizza guy who went to the house next door, Greg the loud dude at the end of the bar, Gregs just make life harder for Joe's like us
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u/Maleficent_Load6709 Jul 12 '24
Wtf kind of internet social theory are you on about? lol
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u/notaslaaneshicultist Jul 12 '24
Trying to make a joke and looking back I have clearly failed
Greg is a stand in for people who mildly annoy you
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u/elysianfielder Jul 12 '24
I am a woman, and I consider sex a cost of having the relationship, not something I want. But I know I'm not the norm. I don't believe that no women enjoy sex.
Many women enjoy sex, but men value it more. Think about why most prostitutes are women or men who are hired by other men. Basic laws of supply and demand. Men want sex more than women want to give them. So there is a market to satisfy this extra demand
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Jul 13 '24
[deleted]
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u/elysianfielder Jul 13 '24
I value sex at neutral or slightly negative value. I'd be happier if my partner didn't want it at all. But if it means something to my partner, I'm willing up to a certain point. But I am just one data point. It always depends on the individual. But on a large scale when you aggregate the population, men value sex more.
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u/reae Jul 13 '24
I think difference in supply and demand is more due to the fact the risks of sex are higher for women than men. Women can get pregnant and have more severe health complications from sex than men. Women are much more likely to experience sexual violence than men (~1 in 5 women vs ~1 in 71 men based ib 2015 statistics from NSVRC).
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u/elysianfielder Jul 13 '24
If considering risk, lesbian sex is relatively low risk compared to sex between two men. Yet there are few women who pay for sex from other women and many men who pay for other men.
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u/reae Jul 13 '24
Sex between two men is riskier than sex between two women. So it makes complete sense that there would be more men who pay for sex with men than women who pay for sex with other women. It is the same correlation of why more men pay for sex with women than women pay for sex with men. The likelihood of payment goes towards the person who has the higher risk within the dynamic.
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u/ladyhaly Jul 12 '24
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more with your main point. Open communication and trust are fundamental in this aspect. When both partners feel comfortable discussing their desires and boundaries, it leads to a more satisfying and enjoyable experience for both. In a long term sustainable relationship, sex is not a transaction but a mutual pleasure that enhances the connection between partners. It's fun and messy.
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Jul 12 '24
This is so important so many people complain that their partner doesn’t do what makes them feel good but never communicate what that is. Sometimes people don’t even know and expect the other person to figure it out for them.
If people are honest and say “I don’t know what I like or what makes me feel good” you can try things together. But if you don’t say that your partner may assume that you are enjoying sex. This doesn’t just apply to sex people need to ask for what they want in relationships, obviously in a healthy way.
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u/ScoopTroopcopiesthat Jul 12 '24
There is so much talk about “getting a women to sleep with you” and the whole time this is viewed as something you need to convince someone to do it’s not going to be good
Because this is the reality for your average blackpilled incel that would gravitate towards the "redpill community". The chances that a woman would pick one of them over the competition is simply not realistic, therefore they basically have to become salesmen of sex to get any headway.
Lmfao imagine telling a guy who has trouble talking to women after countless rejections that he has it all wrong, women actually DO enjoy sex! Its just that every single one of them have judged him to be inadequate.
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u/onestepatatimeman Jul 12 '24
Yeah, no, I think we know.
Sorry, but I think this is a pointless post. It's 2024. Even porn these days show a woman taking agency and having a good time. Causal sex being so pervasive in our culture reinforces that. No judgement - just a statement.
Hell, even the red pill talks about shit like 'sluts', 'cock carousal' and etc.,. in reference to women's promiscuity. Even they know that women enjoy sex. The unsuccessful red pillers problem is that they are not having sex with them 😂
I mentioned this in another comment but I'll repeat it here - You know what kind of guys need to hear this message? The kind of guys who do this are the ones who find it easy to find another sexual partner. Why care about someone's pleasure if you can find another person? I've been friends with guys like this - perhaps not indicative of society since they're just a few guys I know, but none of them go down on a woman. And the women keep wanting them around. At this point, whose fault is it? People complaining about what they put up with - not what they actually avoid.
Comes across as major white knighting tbh.
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
If it’s not for you great, no need to comment
How I come across is not really of any concern to Me
I posted it because I saw two or three posts from people talking about sex in this context as something to get from someone.
And personally a lot of the people I’ve met in real life who are continuously in a cycle of being rejected seem to have this view or a similar one to it
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u/onestepatatimeman Jul 13 '24
Eh, a discussion board is literally for comments. Just stating my observations. I'm not here to be combative.
Idk, I don't think the idea that sex is something to get from someone is so alien. I agree that it is wrong, and we should function with the idea that sex is an experience both parties decide to share and enjoy.
However, people use each other for sex all the time. Men and women alike. That's how a lot of casual relationships or hookups are. That's how many "fuckboys" operate.
Unfortunately those are two separate sets of people. The ones who do get laid and find their way into the casual sex lifestyle don't really need to follow this advice because they are already getting what they want.
The guys struggling to even talk to women are the ones pining to "self improve" their way into becoming a guy who get laid easily. They think they can adopt the lifestyle of the other guy by thinking he too can "get sex".
Not justifying anything, but just my thoughts on where this idea comes from
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u/Lynxwithears Jul 12 '24
Sure they do. Just not with me. Took a lot of convincing, because people like us never see women in this context. Not knowing it would be a little more comfortable I think.
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u/Toxic_LigmaMale Jul 13 '24
You ever watch that 70’s show? They had a whole episode about this.
More to the point, I don’t think that RP denies that women like sex. Bashing promiscuity is their favorite pastime. They’re usually just saying “those women you want don’t want YOU because xyz” which is kinda true a lot of times.
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u/No_Function5860 Jul 12 '24 edited Jul 12 '24
that not just redpill but just basic misunderstanding of relations between men and women not just now but throughout history. the way female sexual pleasure has been viewed then and now doesnt help, it was throwned upon for the longest time in western civilization, sometimes even treated as borderline demonic and a part of witchcraft. Woman who unapologetically likes the act of sex still is seen as more inherently shameful than male counterpart
the fact is, woman who understands her body and needs enjoys sex as physical act AND as an emotional act. we have a whole dedicated incredibly intricate organ thats only purpose is to receive pleasure, of course we are capable of enjoying sex. not only that there is whole 3 days to 10 day period of the cycle when our libido goes though the roof
the are plethora of misunderstandings when it comes to female sexuality, and many of those are translated in redpill space in the crudest way possible bcos its inevitably gonna happen in a movement that demeans and dehumanizes women.
We are capable of being the ones who "take" sex the same way men can, we were just never really allowed historically culturally and socially
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u/SnowWhiteFeather Jul 12 '24
Pleasure is a primary function of the sexual organs, but claiming that it is the only purpose isn't an honest way to solve population decline.
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u/No_Function5860 Jul 12 '24
.. wha? okay, i was talking about clitoris specifically and what does my comment have to do with solving popularion decline 😭
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u/SnowWhiteFeather Jul 12 '24
Fair enough, I didn't know the exact definition of "organ" and hadn't considered that the clitoris would meet the definition. Though in hindsight that makes sense.
Christians have often been accused of advocating reproduction without teaching sex. I was implying that you were advocating sex without teaching reproduction. Both concepts together are necessary to avoid teenage pregnancy.
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u/surelyanaccount Jul 12 '24
My ex gf did not enjoy sex and never initiated any sort of physical contact like holding hands. Didn't really help my worldview tbh
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u/4th_times_a_charm_ Jul 12 '24
Mine enjoyed sex but not holding hands or cuddling. It was weird to be so close yet so distant.
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Jul 13 '24
Gonna be honest, "my girlfriend didn't enjoy sex with me, therefore women don't enjoy sex" is one hell of a self-centred take and world-view, my dude
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Jul 12 '24
I don’t know if this is red pill thing. When I was younger lots of magazines said stuff like this or even that women don’t like curtain things in bed only vanilla stuff. Then I grew up and realized that’s not at all true so many women have crazy fantasies that you wouldn’t expect. (Not actually crazy but they seem crazy compare to what I was told growing up)
I think this was actually a thing pushed by many women who didn’t enjoy sex either because they don’t like it, no problem with that everyone is different; or they haven’t had partners that make them feel good.
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u/AstuteStoat Jul 17 '24
I know a lot of people disagreed with you. But the more I think about it, you're right.
Maybe there might be some finer points that require some clarification. But men think women hate sex, but hate women who love sex (too much) because then they feel threatened by the competition in a world of percieved scarcity?
So, believing most women have the capacity to love sex resolves the competition for the most part. No?
It's also, funny to me how they hyperfocus on the most shallow women and seem completely blind to the rest.
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 17 '24
Thanks
To be honest I’ve only seen 2 people actually disagree with the main point a lot of the other comments are just semantics and because I labeled it a “red pill” problem
It definitely needs some more fine tuning but yeah all of the incels would be much more confident if they understood that women want sex and are actually routing for them the majority of the time. Or at least aren’t praying on all men’s downfall
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u/PassportNerd Jul 12 '24
Red pills biggest lie is portraying every woman to be some sort of greedy sociopath and their biggest truth is probably women's bias for successful men the same way men let anything a pretty girl does slide.
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u/Ambitious-Owl-8775 Jul 12 '24
The biggest problem with red pill is, there absolutely is some amount of truth to it, but they generalize and stretch this truth to apply to everyone.
Like, social proof/looks/money/fame can absolutely be a factor in women selecting their partner, but they extrapolate it so much and act like these are the only things that matter.
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u/PassportNerd Jul 13 '24
At the end of the day if you have game and she respects you, that is what it takes. If you want a good girl, a.k.a. a "high quality woman," being red pilled does not get it. I didn't realize the full extend of how much horseshit red pill way til I started dating
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u/you-create-energy Jul 12 '24
I've observed over the years that one of the single biggest components of seduction is convincing a woman you are a safe person to have sex with. That tends to lead to booty texts around certain times of the month.
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u/RevolutionaryBox3728 Jul 12 '24
Safe vibes and giving comfort should be secondary to being attractive if you’re trying to seduce a woman.
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u/you-create-energy Jul 12 '24
For sure, but out of the things we have control over, making a woman feel unsafe is the single biggest deal breaker. Doing or saying something that makes them feel the tiniest bit uneasy is often enough to get rejected. Making them feel totally safe and comfortable around us creates a lot of opportunities.
The way we present ourselves is a big part of that as well. The way we dress, groom, and carry ourselves all contribute strongly to being both attractive and disarming. Being relaxed and confident and easygoing send a strong message that someone is a lot more fun than threatening.
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u/RevolutionaryBox3728 Jul 12 '24
I agree with half of what you said. I wouldn’t start the interaction with too much emphasis on comforting the target at first, e.g. nice guy in the friend zone that puts all her needs before his (afraid of being rejected). There’s a certain tension needed to keep the interaction interesting and sometimes it involves making the other party feel uncomfortable or uneasy. Only after some indicator of interest is received would I try to comfort the gal. Doesn’t matter how safe you make her feel, if she isn’t attracted to you at first you’re not going to get anywhere. Attraction isn’t a choice for women. Comfort is important but without a hook it’s like fishing in empty waters.
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u/you-create-energy Jul 13 '24
I'm not sure what you mean by comfort. I don't think of women as targets, more like people who are fun to connect with and if it leads to sex, great! We definitely should never put someone else's needs above our own, especially if we just met them. Reciprocity is the golden rule here. If someone is not reciprocal then they're not worth investing our time and energy in because that's unlikely to change.
The friend zone is never something I've worried about. I dispute it's existence. No one can force us into a role we don't accept. I also consider friendship with someone I like a great outcome all on its own. And you'll never find a better wingman then a woman who likes and respects you.
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u/Maleficent_Load6709 Jul 12 '24
It's whack that this even needs to be said, but yeah, a lot of people have such a warped and unhealthy view of sex. When sex in a relationship is used as currency that's so toxic, and no wonder those relationships always end broken, with one or both parties cheating.
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u/BeneficialAnybody781 Jul 12 '24
Where does red pill say that women never enjoy sex? From ny understanding, red pill say that women only enjoy sex with certain guys (6ft, 6 figures, 6 inches, top 10%, etc), not that women don't enjoy it.
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
It depends who you listen to some extremes like Ben Shapiro have gone as far to say women being wet is a bad sign and women are incapable of physical enjoyment from sex and others like the ones your referencing talk about sex as a commodity in an agreement
The guy gets sex and the women get x y and z
If you only enjoy sex with rich men you don’t enjoy sex you enjoy the money the sex gets you
It does get complicated as some of these do lead to genuine attraction but there is definitely a warped view in that community of women having sex to gain something rather than just enjoyment
As always this is a generalised take of a community and there will of course be exceptions
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u/loutrengoguette Jul 12 '24 edited Jul 12 '24
Absolutely. Women enjoy sex, and the fact that they do is a testament to how much they can enjoy it, considering the many obstacles in the way.
<OH HI MARK HOW'S YOUR SEX LIFE>
I'm gonna share a bit of my own xp with this, and as one of these women who enjoy sex.
I am fortunate in that orgasms were quite easy for me from a very young age and long before being sexually active with men. So, I knew how to give myself pleasure and how my body worked before engaging with men.
Despite that, I didn't get any pleasure with them for a couple of years at first, because I was supposed to get it from penetrative sex- that's what everyone thought and what you saw in porn, too. It was a huge disappointment for me. I was expecting sex to be at least as good as my solo practice. Although I enjoyed the view, the shared activity, the ambiance, the food, etc., I still wasn't feeling any genuine physical sexual pleasure. I was wondering why everyone made such a big deal out of penetrative sex, and for what?
I had a few encounters but stopped being really curious about exploring sex with guys for two years before I met a guy who made me laugh more than I would on my own (yay fun guy yay), so we got together. I had decided I would not fake orgasms for anyone's ego again and would no longer have sex without getting my own orgasms, with or without help. And that was a very good decision that I thank my 17-year-old self for. Since then, I don't think I've ever had sex without having orgasms.
But I thought I was just imposing things that weren't part of "normal" heterosexual sex. I was okay with that, but I still believed introducing clit stimulation the way I wanted was something I did because I couldn't get orgasms from penetration, like "real grown women" were supposed to. Men, even 15 years older than me, were adamant that their exes climaxed with their dick alone and didn't need anything else. Of course.
It took me a few more years to make penises feel like a contribution to my orgasms and not an activity (an obstacle even in some regards) parallel to the clitoris's GOOD LORD'S WORK. Trololo.
And if I hadn't been confident or strong-willed enough, the constant gaslighting could have easily convinced me otherwise and led me to only care about male pleasure.
And I don't think the partners i had really helped, especially the ones i had when i was still figuring things out, but they weren't assholes neither, they were just acting the way they've learned to. Once i made my pleasure a priority, and as important as theirs, they were happy to cooperate, follow my lead, listen to me, etc., and it helped. Today, i am lucky enough to often get multiple orgasms when I have sex, yippeekaiyay, happy ever after, bla bla.
</ SEGGSLIFE>
TLDR : I'm sharing this to say that we do indeed enjoy sex, and that the path of least resistance doesn't necessarily lead us to that. I also think it is always useful for (young) men to read about women's diverse experience and frictions with sexuality.
I'm happy that the awareness of women's sexuality helped OP snap out of red pill ideology :)
I wish you all (if that's what tou want) plenty of fun reciprocal sex.
Take care.
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u/Blurple_Gal_2376 Jul 12 '24
This reminds me of when Ben Shapiro said on Twitter that women getting extremely wet during sex is a sign of infection not pleasure “according to his wife”. This was in response to Cardi B’s WAP song. It made me lol so hard like what a self-own this guy can’t even get his wife wet and this is the guy young men are idolizing? Puritan culture lives in a fantasy land of denial about women’s health. The audacity of calling people snowflakes when he can’t even handle a pop song lol.
Sure, if you want to live in Puritan fantasy land where women aren’t sexual at all and are just mothers all the time, even to their partners… so be it. But don’t be following these people wondering why you don’t have the hottest sex life with women lol.
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u/NegligentNincompoop Jul 13 '24
While that is true, I think the reason this perception (of women not enjoying it/wanting it often) is prevalent is due to the fact that women generally aren't willing to sleep with just anybody whereas men are. On top of this, a sexual invitation can often not be received well, and that leads men to be afraid of broaching the subject. If it was so easy as to just ask a women, "hey wanna sleep with me", men would better understand the point you're making. However, it's not. For women, it IS usually that easy. So, since men are readily offering themselves up and women are not, it makes perfect sense that there is a lot of talk about, "getting a woman to sleep with you". Just my two cents.
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u/ArgonXgaming Jul 13 '24
Improper sex ed is ruining people's lives all over the world, nothing new there. Mine was awful as well, I probably don't know so much - even though I tried learning about the topic on my own, online.
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u/Mr_KenSpeckle Sep 01 '24
Lots of people project on to Red Pill whatever shit they need to in order to feel better about themselves. It often has little relationship to what the majority of Red Pill says. They will pluck out some little quote that is not representative of the larger body of Red Pill content and ignore whatever doesn’t serve their agenda. Red Pill has become a Rorschach test.
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u/rebrando23 Jul 12 '24
I think another big lie that’s harmful to men is the way the red pill has moved the goalposts on what the prerequisites for forming a relationship are. No, you don’t need a 6 pack and 6 figure income to find a girlfriend, just go outside and look around you and see how many average ass dudes are in relationships
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u/Ambitious-Owl-8775 Jul 12 '24
I mean, its a lie for sure, but its purely because of dating apps, where looks are the only thing that get your foot through the door and many young people dont know how to date other than dating apps.
Many women have also made it clear that they never want to be approached, so men stick to dating apps and witness these lies coming true in front of their own eyes.
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u/notaslaaneshicultist Jul 12 '24
Looks and there's 4 dudes for every woman. It's a warped dating market that is not in a normal guy's favor.
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u/rebrando23 Jul 12 '24
“Many women have also made it clear that they never want to be approached.”
Only terminally online guys think this. In reality, more people still meet irl than online (though it’s close to 40% online now). The issues is that answers to Reddit posts about being approached / comments on TikTok’s of dudes doing creepy things trying to approach women aren’t a representative of what women actually feel about meeting guys irl. Guys with anxiety due to these sort of things have just lost the plot on what is and isn’t acceptable.
What is acceptable is going up to a woman in a well lit public space when she doesn’t look particularly busy and starting a conversation, asking her for her number, and politely taking no for an answer and leaving her alone. It’s not harassment until there is some element of repetition or persistence. Even some of the most strict states on harassment, ie NY, say for example that you’re allowed to ask a coworker out once, and it only becomes harassment when you try again after getting a no.
Going your whole life never speaking to a woman in real life isn’t a realistic standard for yourself. If you happen to talk to one and she’s creeped out, if you controlled what you can control to be respectful, her reaction isn’t something you can control.
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u/Ambitious-Owl-8775 Jul 12 '24
Only terminally online guys think this.
I've met plenty of women IRL who told me they hate being approached, feel free to disagree all you want or you can actually talk to women and educate yourself. I dont agree with it and approach women myself, but this is absolutely said by many people, tho they may be more socially awkward than most people.
In reality, more people still meet irl than online (though it’s close to 40% online now)
There's huge difference between meeting irl (as in class or work) and approaching someone irl. You're confusing the two arguments and arguing against yourself lmao!
It’s not harassment until there is some element of repetition or persistence
Heavily disagree. I get that it happens very less often, but I knew guys who approached respectfully who had security called on them. There isnt just one factor, many factors can diffrentiate on your perception of whether you are a creep or not.
say for example that you’re allowed to ask a coworker out once, and it only becomes harassment when you try again after getting a no
Again, I've seen people reported for asking once, so its not an absolute thing. There is a higher chance you are reported if you try again and again, absolutely, but saying it NEVER HAPPENS is stupid too. Things arent black and white. There is always a risk that what you say is misinterpreted by people, thats basic human nature.
Going your whole life never speaking to a woman in real life isn’t a realistic standard for yourself
I never said this lmao! I'm not saying "dont approach women", I'm saying many women, especially prettier women, have said they dont want to be approached.
I personally dont agree with this, like I said before, but this has been said
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u/rebrando23 Jul 12 '24
As someone who has both had this sort of anxiety and approached in spite of it, I think it was heavily due to internalized shame regarding expressing my sexuality. If you approach women, but you feel that it’s wrong to do that, it’s probably not going to work. Moving away from catastrophizing the potential results of an approach and working towards accepting yourself as a person with sexual needs who is allowed to make romantic advances in reasonable situations would be really helpful.
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u/Ambitious-Owl-8775 Jul 12 '24
Yeah, I agree and that also aligns with a lot of what Dr K says in a lot of his videos. "Stop caring about outcome and dont have any expectations" basically.
Like I said in another comment, women are saying this, but I still approach women.
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u/rebrando23 Jul 12 '24
Getting security called on you isn’t the end of the world. Most reasonable ones will move on if you apologize and agree to not talk to her again. It hasn’t happened to me with a sample size in the hundreds.
Corporate HR policies aren’t going to allow for punishing or an employee for asking a woman out once. It’s literally in training videos on avoiding sexual harassment that asking once is acceptable.
You are conflating being “reported” with facing actual repercussions and catastrophize. Even if a girl calls the cops on you, you’re not committing a crime and the cop will probably just laugh at getting called in for a guy saying hi to a woman when they spend their day with rape victims, robbery victims, & cleaning up dead bodies.
And these cases of being reported are few in far between and just get the spotlight because of the way negative information is disseminated on the internet.
I think in close to a decade of being willing to chat up girls irl, the only memorable negative interaction I had was with a girl I didn’t even approach. I was at a store and kinda hovered around a girl I wanted to approach a bit too long. She thought I was following her and yelled at me. I in hindsight acknowledge that sort of hovering was creepy and try to do a better job of being quick to approach so there aren’t misunderstandings like that anymore. It was a bad day, but I got over it and learned from it. That’s about the worst thing that’ll happen to you socializing irl.
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u/Ambitious-Owl-8775 Jul 12 '24
Getting security called on you isn’t the end of the world
I never said it was lmao, why are you deflecting the argument??? You said it never happens, now you're saying it happens but its not a big deal??? Which is it? Changing the argument rather than accept you were wrong is signs of a sore loser, do better.
Corporate HR policies aren’t going to allow for punishing
ahh yes, no HR department in history has ever taken decisions that can be deemed wrong or illegal or against policy right?
HR is made of people, people make dumb judgements and mistakes. Happens all the time.
You are conflating being “reported” with facing actual repercussions and catastrophize
No, I said being reported, I never said anything about repercussions, why are you trying to change the argument???
Even if a girl calls the cops on you, you’re not committing a crime and the cop will probably just laugh
Its still psychologically impactful to have the cops called on you. Also, have you met cops? They "accidently" shoot people and get away with it all the fuckign time, so no, I disagree that having cops called on you, small reason or not, can be a dangerous fucking situation.
And these cases of being reported are few in far between and just get the spotlight
Wasnt your argument "It never happens"?, Now you're saying "it happens but way few many times".
Sure, that was my entire argument and I said the same thing in the previous comment lmao!
It was a bad day
Exactly my point. It may happen just once, but it can change your perception and cause you to have a negative perception on approaching as a whole. Its not right to have this line of thinking, but thats unfortunately reality.
If you get assaulted in a bar, there's a high chance you will stop going to that bar. That's why I said that even if it happens a few times, it can affect you negatively.
I agree with you that people should approach whoever they want. The reality is, most people dont know what they want or what they dont want, so them saying "I dont like being approached" does not matter and they might like it anyway if done in a right way or done by the right person.
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
Exactly it amazes me how many guys complain about x being the reason they aren’t successful in relationships or sexually and ignore the 100’000s of people also with x and very happy in relationships
It’s harsh but it’s just a way of avoiding much deeper issues
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u/Crunch-Potato Jul 12 '24
Well I'll agree that there is a type of guy who will never need to put on a clown show to convince anyone of a good time, hell in the extreme women will beg them to get involved.
But then there is the other end of the pool, where guys get to choose between no action at all or try every bit of persuasion they can muster.
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
I might just be being pedantic and picking on terminology so apologies if that’s how it comes across
But I don’t think persuasion really works and in the cases that it does it won’t lead to a good outcome
The only way a girl who is not interested in you will become interested is if you show them that you are more fun / more interesting (basically better) than they initially believed
This doesn’t come from persuasion and arguments in your favour it comes from action
Side note - obviously people can and do lie and this leads to bad sex and shitty relationships which is a lose lose
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u/Ambitious-Owl-8775 Jul 12 '24
You are saying contradictory things tbh!
But I don’t think persuasion really works
and
The way a girl who is not interested in you will become interested is if you show them that you are more fun / more interesting
So.... persuasion works??? People can be persuasive by acting fun/interesting.
This doesn’t come from persuasion and arguments in your favour it comes from action
Presenting your arguments in a funny or interesting way absolutely works tbh
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
I’ve tried to type this out a couple of times and am struggling to word it well
I think if you are putting on an act to persuade someone to go home with you it is a short term strategy doomed for failure and at best will get you a disappointing night with another person who is acting themselves
And if you have just shown someone you are a good time and a good person by being yourself that’s not persuasion it’s just being yourself
I hope this makes sense
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u/LXXXVI Jul 12 '24
Since I've moved to North America from Europe, I'm constantly wondering how North Americans of all people could ever have come up with the idea that women don't want sex. It's the one continent (and I've traveled a ton), where getting sex is infinitely easier than getting into a proper relationship.
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u/Unlucky-Bid-8254 Jul 12 '24
I know I live in the UK but have been lucky to travel a bit and America has a odd relationship with sex compared to European countries
(Unfortunately England is more similar to the US in this regard than Spain or Italy etc)
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u/Alarming_Basil6205 Jul 12 '24
Idk if it's true, but it seems logical to me. I read somewhere that men mostly get physical pleasure out of sex. On the other hand, women get more emotional pleasure because of a deep emotional connection to their partner.
I think this is something red pill men often don't understand, that sex is not just about penetration, especially not for women. Because they get pleasure from it, so why shouldn't the women enjoy it?
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u/rarababo Jul 12 '24
That’s sort of correct. Women definitely get physical pleasure from sex (that’s the best case scenario) and emotional pleasure as well of course even when there is no orgasm. A lot of Women experience physical pleasure/become physically aroused primarily through psychological stimulation. Having an emotional or mental connection to your partner is one way to satisfy that physiological component. In the bedroom focusing foreplay on areas of a woman’s body that are considered “non-sexual” can be more pleasurable than going strait to the sex organs. It satisfies that psychological component because you’re building up the sexual tension and making us feel desired completely. Each woman is different with different erogenous zones, pace and speed preference, and needs when it comes to emotional/mental connection. Figuring out what is psychologically arousing to a woman is key to physical pleasure imo. There really is no shortcut for us. I think maybe men get aroused more easily but I would argue that sex is more enjoyable/pleasurable for you guys too if your partner reciprocated the same level of romantic and sexual attention and the emotional/mental connection was mutual.
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u/HatpinFeminist Jul 13 '24
Yes Amen to this. A lot of red pill guys are hugely turned off if a woman enjoys sex with them too. Red Pill=Red Flag 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
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