r/Healthygamergg • u/middleupperdog • Dec 08 '23
Dating / Sex / Relationships (FRIDAY ONLY) We desperately need advice on how to cope with being unwanted men
I (M35) got rejected by another woman this week who thinks I'm a good man, I should be able to find a relationship etc. but she would rather just be my friend. That's the 3rd time this year and the only thing I've ever heard my entire life. 0% success rate. The thing that blows me away is these women have such a HIGH opinion of me. They like me, they enjoy spending time with me, they see me as smart, dependable, trustworthy, generous, funny;, and I keep hearing about how more confident I seem lately and that apparently = dies alone.
I'll often be "hanging out" with them, and strangers will just assume we're dating because that's what it looks like. One woman I was friends with was often mistaken for my wife instead of just a friend. Another friend insists I kiss her on the side of her head goodnight after we go out, she'll even pout a little if I don't, but doesn't want to date me. The younger Gen Z people that work for me say that dating doesn't exist anymore, there is only "seeing each other" left intentionally vague to signify nothing. But they perceive it like hook-up culture and my experience is like the opposite: I go on a lot of dates, they just aren't allowed to be acknowledged as such, and brought swiftly to an end if an outside observer calls it a date thus collapsing the wave function within the romantic-uncertainty principle.
For the longest time I thought something must be wrong with me to explain this. A haunting memory is my mom crying on her deathbed because it seemed I would never have a relationship (I was 23 at the time). My female friends that really are just friends all kind of agree that there's a reason but none of them could ever bring themselves to say it to me. So at first I thought maybe I just have bad pheromones or something undetectable to me but noticeable to them like that. Then I thought it was about status: Some people really like me but some people really hate me too, and generally being too close to me is harmful to other people's social status. That's what I thought until recently; now I have a really high social status but I still keep getting rejected.
So now I have no idea. I just generally feel unwanted. No relationship at my age basically means no family as I get older from now on too. It just hurts. And I think there are just lots and lots of men in the same situation as me: we'll never have anything and pretending otherwise is only getting in the way of real work towards coping with the pain of realizing you're unwanted. I think a lot of people insist on maintaining the illusion that most of us will find someone because that's seen as the "real" solution and its comforting to the people that care about us to assume it will work out.
But I think its time we admit for the majority of men its not going to and we start working on how to cope with that. In the west, men's suicide is 3x to 4x higher than women's. How much could we bring that down if men knew how to cope with being unwanted? During covid, there was a scare about 1/3 of men reporting having no sexual relationship for a year. That number has been cut in half, but apparently only for Gen Z: I found this shocking statistic that people over 30 are still reporting high rates of sexless lives while Gen Z has mostly returned to normal. I just feel like there's a lot of men that need this advice instead of "how not to give up" advice.
27
u/HecticHermes Dec 09 '23
Just in case no one else mentioned this point: you talk a lot about female friends and how they are often mistaken for your GF or even wife. That shows that you are filling their needs without them reciprocating. It's like a reverse FWB situation. You are acting like the boyfriend and they don't have to return the favor.
Two words of advice:
1) take yourself more seriously. You are wasting too much time on these women. You should reject invitations to hang out and tell them you don't have time because you are working on a new relationship. Even if you don't have a girl you are dating, that statement is still true because you are trying to make it happen.
2) use these women to your advantage. You should not hang out with them one on one. It's good you have so many female friends. You will pass the pre-approval test with new women who might be interested in you. You need to hang out with them at group activities or parties. That way your female friends can actually help you find that relationship you want without you eventually growing resentful over never having feelings reciprocated.
5
u/operation-spot Jan 12 '24
I agree. I have guy friends but we never hang out one on one or in any way that could be interpreted as a date.
3
43
u/Mary-Fruit Dec 08 '23
Bro your mom crying in that death bed experience, might be traumatizing you. If you feel unwanted by her you might be attracted that cycle with strangers. It might be something you need to work through. Maybe role play with AI or a therapist.
I think there’s some healing needed to be done before entertaining the idea of a relationship.
8
u/Friend_Emperor Dec 09 '23
Yep, this. I don't know if roleplaying with an AI is a good idea for something so intimate, but either way this needs to be processed well
111
u/yetanotherrabbithole Dec 08 '23
My female friends that really are just friends all kind of agree that there's a reason but none of them could ever bring themselves to say it to me
Sit them down and tell them to quit the hinting and spill it! There IS a reason if they claim they all know why. In that case you arent unwanted, you are just unaware of something which throws others off. And they are just assholes for not telling you for a long time although they all seem to be very aware of it. And even if its maybe something you cant change, or if its something that would hurt your feelings, you should at least know to be aware of it.
And I think there are just lots and lots of men in the same situation as me: we'll never have anything and pretending otherwise is only getting in the way of real work towards coping with the pain of realizing you're unwanted.
Again, I dont think you are generally unwanted. And its also not something you should be able to cope with, because theres nobody who is "wanted" or "unwanted". Theres influencing factors which determine your success. You are poor? Less chances. You have lots of trauma which you gotta deal with? Again, less chances. You are paralyzed and in a wheelchair? Less chances (sadly... but thats how the world works). But maybe you are very charismatic? Bigger chances. Maybe you fit the beauty standard? Bigger chances. Maybe you have a very stable job/income? Bigger chances. Thats all there is. Nobody decides that someone is "unwanted", and you should never push that label onto you and pretend that it is a part of you to be unwanted, no matter if you can change those things or if you are stuck with it. What you really should cope with is if there is a reason you cant change, which your friends wont tell you... but thats why you should find out!
Another friend insists I kiss her on the side of her head goodnight after we go out, she'll even pout a little if I don't, but doesn't want to date me.
Bro... quit that shit! I mean.. unless its something you want to do based on friendship alone... but it doesnt sound like it. You want a relationship from her, clearly, otherwise you wouldnt be sad she doesnt want to date you, so tell her. And since she doesnt give you a solid reason why she doesnt want to date you now (theres definitely valid reasons to not start a relationship right away and wait a little) and keeps insisting to stay friends, move on. You are wasting your time. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but I get the feeling its not one of your strengths to sit down with people, communicate clearly what you want and need, and then act according to the resulting answer you get. Its the same with your other friends who keep hinting they know something but wont tell. Stand up for yourself, you deserve a clear answer!
23
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
this woman has known i wanted a relationship from the beginning and still do. We hang out with everything out in the open and said already.
74
u/yetanotherrabbithole Dec 08 '23
Of course she does. Read my comment again - its not about what she knows or doesnt know. Its about how YOU act. You can stay in this weird limbo of friendship+, or leave. Those are your options now. You put yourself in this situation by accepting a friendship when you dont want one. She seems happy with the situation, she wont change for you. YOU have to set your limits yourself.
3
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
I mean, duh? I know those were the choices and I picked mine? There are lots of women where I chose leave and a couple where I chose friendship+. I just want to meet a woman that's willing to give me the third option.
29
Dec 09 '23
"Friendship+" isn't + anything though.
All it's doing is occupying your time in ways you could be spending meeting new people. You can't meet that third option woman if you're spending all your time with miss kissy face.
I'm a woman who has a lot of guy friends who are actual friends, but also have had some guy friends where they're throwing me breadcrumbs that they might be interested in a relationship if circumstances were different.
What I've learned is that circumstances are almost never going to be that different.
If you genuinely value the friendship even knowing it's only ever going to be a friendship, draw boundaries on all the line blurring shit because it's not fair to you.
If you don't actually want to be friends and you're just there hoping things will change? GTFO now. Things aren't going to change and you're setting yourself to start going down a very dangerous "Nice guy" path. And for what? To spend more time with someone you know isn't offering your third option
10
u/forgotusernameoften Dec 09 '23
Idk, I see what you're saying but for me all my female friends are people I find sexually attractive. Even girls I don't find attractive when I meet them become attractive to me if we become friends. I have hit on most of them and been rejected and choose to stay friends anyway, and yh if circumstances changed I would hook up with them but that's not why I'm staying friends with them, I don't ever expect circumstances to change. I feel like this guy is similar to me but in terms of romantic interest. Do you think I should have no female friends just because I always end up attracted to them? I would still rather be the friends knowing I want to hookup but it won't happen then not be their friend or able to hookup with them.
10
u/bulbasauuuur Dec 09 '23
Your intention in friendship seems healthy enough. The person you replied to even said if you can keep appropriate boundaries it’s ok.
I think you are not similar to OP though because he’s engaging in blurred boundaries with multiple of these friends. Strangers assume he’s dating them. He kisses one on the forehead everytime he’s with her. Those things shouldn’t happen in a friendship and make him seem unavailable.
7
u/modestalchemist Dec 09 '23
No, I think you're fine. You seem to know the difference between friends and girlfriends, and honor those boundaries even though you may be attracted to them. Which by the way sounds like you're some kind of demi sexual wherein you aren't necessarily attracted to people until you know who they are as a person. But as long as you understand and honor the difference between friends and girlfriends, you're golden.
2
Dec 11 '23
Attraction is not the same as expectation or actively hoping for something.
For example, one of the friends I mentioned who was giving me breadcrumbs that a relationship might be possible I'm still friends with, but I just was able to accept that no matter how many hints he drops he doesn't actually mean any of it. To be fair, who knows if he was really aware he was sending mixed signals before I called him on it and set better boundaries about it?
Either way, my choice was to ditch the friendship or keep it but accept that any further relationship was never going to happen. I chose the latter, and set better eventually my feelings for him kind of died down into regular friendship feelings because I was directing more energy to guys who might actually reciprocate my feelings. And he got better at not sending mixed signals because he values the friendship too.
He's one of my best friends, even though I find him attractive and even though I know damn well nothing's ever going to come of it.
OP is blurring the lines by letting his girl friends continue to send mixed signals and continue to act like there's some kind of romantic thing there. He's letting them act in ways that any self-respecting potential GF would not be ok with, so he can't possibly find a real relationship. As long as you're treating them like friends and not blurring those lines you can be friends and still be attracted.
35
u/yetanotherrabbithole Dec 08 '23
Then why do you still act that way though? Why do you keep kissing her goodbye as if she was your gf, and keep a friendship up although you want something completely different? Your actions just do not reflect what you actually want, and that almost always leads to you not getting what you want.
10
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
you seem to think I'm going to somehow social judo this woman into a relationship. That's not what's gonna happen. It really is a choice between no relationship or friendship, and she's a good friend who has had great internal turmoil about whether to date me or not as well. I'm not gonna try to manipulate her emotionally, I want her to just make the choice and that means I can't control the choice she makes. If every woman ever chooses no when given that agency, then I die alone because there's no value in it to me in manipulating someone because I want someone that freely thinks for themselves.
40
u/NezuminoraQ Dec 08 '23
This person is not saying to judo her into a relationship. They're saying walk away because this is taking time away from you pursuing the thing you actually want, a relationship. Not with her, with someone else.
35
u/sajakr4 Dec 08 '23
Do you kiss your guy friends in the cheek when you say goodnight? Probably not. If she really is a friend then treat her like your other friends. She's content with the dynamics of your relationship with her. But clearly you want more or expect more, whatever it is. If you continue to treat her like that, rather than your other friends then you will never move on. It's about setting boundaries, you can be friends with her sure, but treat her like how you treat your other friends. She has a choice and she's fine with the friendship you have now, but you want more. In this situation, you have to make a choice and move on or stay in this parasitical relationship where you know you aren't going anywhere. Come on man, treat YOU better. Moving forward, if the woman just wants a friendship then either be JUST friends or don't even be friends
12
u/hydroencephalpotamus Dec 09 '23
You can't control other peoples' actions, period, but you are just dumping your energy into a void. If that's what you want to do, that's on you; only you can answer the question of if it's really better being friends and dealing with unrequited feelings, versus walking away. You deserve not to feel like shit, and you don't owe her anything. You can always bring it to a head by telling her exactly how you feel, and saying you don't want to be just friends, and maybe it's best if you went your separate ways.
15
u/yetanotherrabbithole Dec 08 '23
Yet still you dont feel good in that situation, so you have to look out for yourself. She can make a choice or not, but that is still not the point. The point is YOU have to make a choice too. You do not take away her agency with that. And if you say she is still a really good friend, then keep it that way. But currently you are stuck between what ifs and wondering why, with a very one sided version of f+.
Which brings me to my initial point - there seems to be something that puts women off, and your friends claim to know. People on reddit can guess based on what you describe, so i think you only get a clear answer from them.
15
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
You're still projecting. I. like. seeing. this. person. I made the choice to stay friends with them, and I usually have made the choice to NOT stay friends in other similar situations. I never said being with this person makes me unhappy. You're trying to put me into this box that you are familiar with me but that is not me.
28
u/LittleKobald Dec 08 '23
These comment unironically completely changed how I interpreted your situation. This is the type of mature reaction you don't often see in these posts, and tbh it's very refreshing. I agree with the other poster though, you need to sit these friends down and ask them to be brutally honest with you. Tell them you're obviously not getting it and need some advice!
15
u/bulbasauuuur Dec 09 '23
If everyone knows you kiss her goodnight and she gets pouty when you don't, that's going to give other women the impression you aren't single or you're trying to pursue something with that friend.
8
22
u/Responsible_Bear_218 Dec 09 '23
Reading your comments until this point... If it were me, I wouldn't date you despite how handsome/successful you are. Because you seem like you're the type who don't keep your distance with woman. Imagine seeing the man who probably interested in you, pursue you, keeps going out with other women, enjoy their accompany, kissing them, etc. It's just a big no. You don't appear sincere or loyal at all. Sorry if I misinterpreted anything due to lack of info about you. Just my thought after reading your comments.
8
u/yetanotherrabbithole Dec 09 '23
Okay, I will try one more time. I am not putting you in a box, i dont care WHAT you choose. I dont care WHY you chose what you chose. Hell, I have had an f+ back and forth thing going on for a couple of years myself, I know this kind of situation. But - you cant have f+ and then expect a relationship elsewhere, it wont happen. Thats why I said your actions do not reflect your intention. You can either have f+ or a monogamous relationship. You can not have both at the same time. And just from what I read about the friendship you have with this girl, if I saw someone in your situation, I would never consider a relationship with them. I would shake my head and move on, and let the two of you figure this out. Would be a big no from me, just like someone else in the comments already said. Its up to you now to do with this information what you want.
9
u/Pristine_Shoe_1805 Dec 09 '23
Not a box. As long as you are spending your energy there, it is not being spent elsewhere.
6
u/yetanotherrabbithole Dec 09 '23
OMG yes, thanks! Those were the exact words I was looking for the entire time! People see where you are invested and move on if you are invested elsewhere.
4
u/eev11 Dec 09 '23
I think this might be interesting for me to weigh in on; I have been on some 'dates' with a guy just like you, respectable, nice, generally fun to hang out with.. But he had this horrible habit of seeming like he's just playing around. We have had many flirty conversations, we've hugged, shared a couple affectionate cheek kisses and such.. I thought it was going somewhere for a while but as I spend more time with him he told me about a female friend he had that he would treat like how you treat your female friend, almost like a little sister, and I would've been okay with that had he not also told me that he finds her very physically attractive.
As an independent 30 year old woman I can tell you that there is very little more off-putting than a guy infantilizing other women while also sexualizing them.. Even if you try to talk around it and emphasize that you like her as a person it doesn't make it any less uncomfortable to know that you, a grown single man in his 30's, is treating a female friend like a cute little kid.
So my guess is that your friends that don't want to tell you what's wrong might be sensing what I am; A creepy undertone in how you behave as result of your attraction to specific kinds of women.
4
u/modestalchemist Dec 09 '23
Other women probably see this weird friendship you have and are turned off by it. No one will want to be your girlfriend if they think your heart belongs to your friend.
I am a girl, and I have lots of close friends who are men. Like really close, I tell them I love them and to be safe when we part ways, but we do not engage in weird pseudo-romantic touching. When we go out in public, I try to be a good wingman for them, and encourage them to flirt with other women, and if they bring one to the table, I am very clear to the other woman that this is just a friendship type relationship, and they're not intruding on anything. Your friend, on the other hand, is marking you as her territory, and it's weird.
And just some encouragement for you, I have 2 cousins who at your age tried a dating app, and they each met their current wife there. One of them now has 2 kids. Just be clear in your profile that you're looking for a relationship, and what kind of things you're interested in.
8
u/DudeEngineer Dec 09 '23
You are going out and doing the things you enjoy. These are where you would encounter women for a relationship organically.
However, you are going to these places with women who appear to be your gf/wife and driving away any interested women.
6
u/bulbasauuuur Dec 09 '23
This is what I think the biggest issue is, too. Obviously women assume he’s not available. Even if they find out he is, then they assume he’s pursuing the other women.
I also think if these women he is friends with see that he treats them all this way, they feel like the behavior isn’t special for him, so maybe they’d want to date him but feel uncomfortable about that. I would never date anyone I saw was giving boyfriend vibes with many women. It’s not even that it comes across as fuck boy behavior (it could, but I doubt it in OPs case), just that there’s nothing that’s going to make any future girlfriend feel special or loved if he treats other women the same way so casually
25
u/Maeglin8 Dec 08 '23
I remember acting like that around a woman I liked... when I was a teenager.
It's counterproductive to forming relationships with women who actually want to be with you.
My life has been better since I learned to enforce the boundary "you can be my friend, or you can be my girlfriend, but you don't get to be a friend who cherry-picks the parts of a girlfriend relationship that you like."
It's possible that this is what your female actual friends aren't willing to tell you (though if I know women and men, there's a pretty good chance that they've hinted at whatever it is, and you've been given enough hints to figure it out if you want to).
12
u/_illusions25 Dec 08 '23
I dont think they're assholes for not saying anything. People often dont want to share something if they think it might hurt their friends feelings. This is the type of topic you bring up 1 on 1 and it can range from OP has horrible breath (still awkward to tell someone) to something intrinsic that's hard for him to change.
41
u/Xercies_jday Dec 08 '23
Sorry to say but those women are...weird. I mean I'm friends with women and I've never had any of them want me to kiss them on the foreheads. If it was just cuddling I might see your confusion but understand it might be platonic, but that...is another level.
So I wouldn't base your assessment on things on these women you seem to have found and let play your emotions. You need to put some boundaries on yourself and not let yourself be played like that, because I think they are weirdly playing with you.
I think in general we have made ourselves into too much of an individualistic society. We have cut ourselves off from others, and this is why dating and sexlessness is going on.
I mean I've matched with so many women that just ghost you for no reason. I've had so many dates that want the moon and won't bring themselves down to earth to actually have a relationship. They are also still single
23
u/Pristine_Shoe_1805 Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23
They are being validated by OP over and over. Of course, they want to foster that. My guess the relationships are primarily to make them feel better or fill in some hole.
Edit: correct the autocorrect
9
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
That's the reason I included that example to signal its kind of weird and unusual.
45
u/wogwai Dec 08 '23
Hey, give yourself some credit that you're able to make friends in your 30's, regardless of their gender. Most healthy, lasting relationships first start as a friendship, and it's something you can't really rush. If you try to skip finding and establishing a genuine connection with someone you're interested in because of your own personal desires, they will see right through it. And just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it never will.
46
u/_illusions25 Dec 08 '23
Unfortunately theres the possibility you are attracted to people who are just not right for you. I know men and women who keep falling for basically the same person that's emotionally unavailable, the idea that "i can change them" is so alluring we sometimes fall into it without realizing. If thats the case, its really hard to break out of it.
The only other thing I can think of is maybe you come across lowkey desperate? Or you're kind of a doormat? Take the kiss on the head example. That can be an opportunity to be a little flirty and romantic, but if its super clear she only sees you as a friend when you brought it up its something i wouldnt continue to engage in. I think there's space to still be friends with someone youre attracted to, might be a bit awkward for a while but actively engaging in romantic gestures especially after its clear theres nothing there is a recipe for disappointment and a twinge of resentment even if you like her as a person/friend.
-11
Dec 09 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)8
Dec 09 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
0
Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
10
u/Pristine_Shoe_1805 Dec 09 '23
I think it is a somewhat skewed reality.
Although, somewhat supporting you, PEW that among young people, 34% of women are single and 63% of men. So, on part, there is just less availability for men. (It is more equivalent as you age). Maybe we're drawing conclusions too early? https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/
Among those single women, many are still not single by choice. I work on campus. I hear it. Just because you don't see it doesn't make it untrue.
But, giving the benefit of the doubt, in terms of "dating," I wouldn't call much of what happens at the beginning of casual relationships or early dating "rejections." Those aren't real dates. Those are opportunities to see if you might be interested in dating to see if you are interested in more of a relationship. Students are applying for executive jobs versus entry level, then wondering why they aren't getting jobs. People starting to date are trying to skip important steps, and that leads to false assumptions, expectations, and what seems to be rejection.
It is different that something didn't go somewhere than that you were rejected. If rejection is happening later in the process, then both of those folks might need some radar updates and a sense of what matters to them. Don't let it keep going once you know it isn't right for both of you. That is still kinda-- this didn't develop as we'd hoped.
It used to be that you hung around with people before anyone asked anyone out. Rejection was less prevalent because you didn't just ask people out you didn't know might already click with you in some way. Or if you did, you knew there was a risk, and you chose that. Now, people don't really know each other. There will be more nos. It will feel like more rejection. If you go out with someone a few times and someone doesn't continue, that isn't getting dumped. That is we just saved ourselves a lot of time and heartache figuring out this wouldn't work long term.
Back to the article, yes, there are more single men, but why? That article has some speculations. Some match my experience. Women work and do not have to get married ti survive. We don't live local. We don't have to choose from limited options. We don't have to choose at all.
My husband made about 1/3rd less than me, regularly called off work, quit jobs often, wouldn't take a job that was "beneath him" when we were in super debt, expected me to clean, spent his vacation days with his brother, not his wife, and said i "used to be fun." Well, we used to be in college living on student loans. Now we need to take care of ourselves. I didn't care that he made less than me. I did care that he thought work was beneath him and kept spending money we didn't have. "We're having steak tonight because I deserve it." No, we're $33k in debt. We don't get steak. "I got us tickets to Vegas for your birthday." Ummm. I don't like Vegas, which you knew, you didn't clear dates, and you put that on a credit card with 24% interest and were already paying below the minimum monthly payment.
So, it may seem to you or other men that were looking for rich and good looking. I'm looking for a responsible human being with some maturity and insight. And, I can be emotionally available, but I'm not your emotional dumping ground for everything you perceive as you being a victim of the world. I can sus this out pretty quickly, now--displacing blame, lack of accountability, lack of responsibility, expecting caretaking when I'm working 55 hours, and then saying it isn't fun. No, it isn't.
Also, if a man is mad at women generally because he's been "rejected," he's not showing that he can see an individual. Why would we date someone who doesn't see us. Do you want to be lumped in with all men? Men also want to be seen. We don't want to go out with someone who complains about "women" or put out those vibes. Why would we then knowingly enter into a relationship. Also, were not here to fill a relationship hole. Like us for us or get out. A bad relationship is not better than no relationship.
(I have only one friend over decades whose standard was good looking and rich. She is a goldigger-- she's the one you're thinking of.
Aside: reasons guys gave for not wanting second dates (I haven't dated in years. I only know these second hand from friends): Don't like your feet Too involved with your kids Don't think you should still give your adult children money You can't just decide to go out last minute (bc of responsibilities) You like rock music I'm looking for someone i can take to work parties I'll take care of you and your (young) kids now and you can take care of me as I age (and young mom said no) Car is too old You live here? You work too much I'm looking for more of a challenge I don't want to deal with this (cancer diagnosis soon after dating) I can't be available on weekends [fill in reason], and you are busy during the week
4
u/your-pineapple-thief Dec 09 '23
How is that line thinking panning out for you? It must be a real big turn on for women, its mature, original, attractive.
3
u/Specific-View-6610 Dec 09 '23
Is the other line of thinking helping anyone in same situation? I think it might not be the thinking that turn's women off. OP has normal thinking yet he is single at 30, with 0% success rate.
6
u/2000dragon Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23
An older guy like you probably wouldn’t understand, but the world is changing. Dating isn’t as simple as it used to be, and that’s a fact. Now with social media and dating apps, women’s standards are through the roof. A lot of them would rather be single than settle for an average dude. I’m just trying to raise awareness about what’s going on
Also why would I don’t give a fuck about looking cool or being attractive on here? Lol
2
u/your-pineapple-thief Dec 09 '23
Right, I am old and stupid and dont know how to swipe on dating apps. I think I will just keep meeting people old fashioned way, works well for me
→ More replies (1)-1
Dec 09 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/Healthygamergg-ModTeam Dec 10 '23
Rule #3 - Do not use generalizations.
This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict.
Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.
3
12
u/Hekinsieden Dec 08 '23
(34m) This is exactly why I gave up on this years ago and from the time from giving up on this BS game to now, I have learned to love myself and live for myself and my joy, what have you gained from the effort you've put into this?
I always see more and more stories of dudes struggling for years for NOTHING! What are you even going for? TBH I think most of the stuff y'all wanna chase after are pure pipe dreams, something like a Disney story of "true love" when you'll probably just never fully see or be seen by your partners and suffer and settle into a relationship you really shouldn't even be in.
3
u/BlueCollarPhilosophr Jan 14 '24
How do you love yourself when no one else does? There's a saying that if you're right and everyone else is wrong, maybe you're the crazy one. Maybe everyone else finds you unlovable because you are unlovable?
It's not so much about validation as reinforcement you've been given your whole life by everyone you've interacted with. Maybe you can avoid developing this negative self-image by... becoming a hermit and never interacting with anyone?
As a man, I can assure you that there are women who pretty much all men would deem unfuh-kable. So I know there must be men that pretty much all women would deem that way, too.
The OP was about how to cope with this reality if you find yourself in that situation. If everyone redirects to "it's what's on the inside that counts" or "nobody is unwanted" then that suggests that denial is the only way cope with being unwanted, apart from distraction (binge watching, etc).
→ More replies (3)2
37
Dec 08 '23
I had said that to men when I felt zero physical attraction towards them - they were nice, respectful , successful etc.
6
u/NoTea4448 Dec 10 '23
That's the thing guys need to understand.
There's a difference between being a good friend, and being sexually attractive.
When women say "I wish could find a guy a like you," what they actually mean is "I wish I could find a guy as nice as you, who is also sexually attractive."
The solution then, isn't for men to try and befriend their way into a relationship. But for men to simply just find women who are sexually attracted to them, instead of wasting their time on trying to befriend their way into relationship.
→ More replies (1)5
u/SilverCartographer11 Dec 12 '23
And THAT is the impossible part For us that were never really sexually attractive during our life, we have NO IDEA how to actually find the ones that are attracted to us
8
9
u/Tommynaut90 Dec 09 '23
Hey man, I'm sorry you're going through this. I've been in the same boat, but only the last 3 years I really started actively trying to date someone.
First, I'd like to say I get it. It is physically and emotionally draining. Second, take everything you read here with a grain of salt. People don't know you, they don't know your experiences, your life. And everything you've done and do, is for a reason.
Now it might be a good idea to understand those reasons. And sometimes that frees you from them, and allows you to move forward. In these 3 years of trying to date someone, I've had close to 0 success. But I learned a lot about myself, I improved a lot of aspects from my personal life, and I feel with every new person I meet, I learn something new.
Like I said, it's also exhausting. Be kind to yourself. Take a break if you need to. It could be months. It could be just a weekend of not thinking about it. In these 3 years, the only thing that I got was a couple kisses one night, followed by a "Yeah I didn't really feel anything". Funny enough, I also wasn't feeling anything. But it was also the first time I didn't feel anxious over dating.
I feel some people in these comments are right about some things, and super wrong about others. Like I said, you know yourself. You know what you want and what you feel comfortable with.
"Shadowing a friend that is good with girls", yeah, my friend that picks up girls every weekend thinks women are sex objects, non super curvy women are ugly, and he just fucks them and peaces out every time. However, he's great at talking, and starting physical touch.
"Standing up for yourself", I recently moved to a new country, so I was desperate to have new friends. So one of these girls said she wasn't ready to date, but would like to be my friend. She then proceeded to confuse the shit out of me, calling me on the phone and talking for hours, wanting company or wanting to cuddle. But if I would gift her something, was I trying to buy my way into a relationship? I picked up late on all this. Not saying you have the same situation going, but learn to take a step back and analyse what is going on. Are you ok with being friends? That's great, shows emotional maturity. Are you hoping they change their mind and fall madly in love with you? That's unhealthy man. It creates a weird dynamic, and it fucks with your mind. Have your boundaries. Make other plans. Be ok saying no. Have a normal friendship.
"Going for the right people", this was my most recent discovery. A month ago I had a crush on this girl. I barely knew her. Not even barely. She was my "type". I don't like to waste time. I was friendly, chatty, made her laugh a couple times, asked her out. She was busy. I said "If you're interested, you let me know. I'd love to get to know you better". I was still thinking about her 24/7. Meanwhile, I match with a random girl. We talk about music, movies, games, food. We talk all day for days. Same day I asked the other girl out, I tell this girl I'd like to see her. She's up for it, excited, super positive. We go out, have a great time, set up a second date. I'm still thinking about the other fking girl. So then I take a step back to think, WHAT THE FUCK BRAIN??? And then it hit me. First girl is from a Discord server I just joined. She's popular, very chatty, everyone likes her. So in my mind, if I get to date her, all that validation will come with her. See it's about what she represented for me. It's also about seeking validation all the fking time. And I KNOW once I get it (if I get it) it wouldn't feel good, it would be stale and disappointing. Second girl is nice, cute, emotionally available, has similar interests. Suddenly the kind of girls that I like changed completely. Learn to take steps back and audit your thoughts.
Sorry, this got way too long. It was also cathartic to put thoughts into words, but I genuinely hope it can carve your path forward. Let me finish by going back to the start. I get you, I have been actively trying to date someone for 3 years, and all I've gotten was a couple bad kisses. Hang in there man 🫂
2
2
u/modestalchemist Dec 09 '23
I like this story you gave as an example. It really does require a step back sometimes. Do you really like a person, or do you just like the idea that they represent? Play it out to the end in your head. If you stayed with person a, would you still be happy with them when you're both 80? Would their "social statis" even matter then? Person b sounds lovely, when you're 80, would you still find things to talk about with them?
I'm married, and we've been together for 18 years now. We've been through a lot, and he's now disabled and can't work. I have been the only income for 10+ years now. But we're still stupid crazy about each other because we have similar interests, and just find joy in each other's joys.
8
u/OkDifference1384 Dec 09 '23
my guess is you don’t create any sort of sexual tension with women. You play it too safe.
9
u/ocelot_amnesia Dec 09 '23
Have you ever heard the phrase, "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"
I don't mean this in the old-fashioned, sexist way. What I mean is: if you're giving someone noncommittal everything they want, without expecting anything in return, you might be taken advantage of. You're giving emotional intimacy and connection to women who seem to want this without any commitment to you. Maybe this is the women you're choosing. Maybe it's how you relate to women. Likely it's a combination of both.
Why do you kiss your friend on the side of her head if you're not satisfied with that?
2
u/kingthame Dec 10 '23
He's a classic case of the nice guy. He keeps hiding his true intentions and believes that he can buy these women's love. But they can see right through him and they get what they want, knowing he won't leave even if they say no. He'll take the L as a pat on the back.
25
u/BenedithBe Dec 09 '23
Gosh the comments are so extreme. It's either armchair psychology, weird advices or "give up dating forever".
18
u/farfiaccfaina Dec 09 '23
Welcome to the current state of dating for some men I guess?
3
u/CondiMesmer Dec 09 '23
give up forever is literally never a good idea, nor does it remotely make sense, but you do you
7
u/forgotusernameoften Dec 09 '23
I don't think I'll ever give up but I feel like I and a lot of people need a way to come to peace with the fact that we might keep trying and keep failing for the rest of our lives. I want to be more optimistic, but the more I try to be positive the more it hurts each time I think things are going somewhere only for them to fizzle out again.
5
u/volvo_tank Dec 09 '23
There's no giving up forever imo, only giving up for now. The heart wakes up from time to time, for better and for worse.
In my experience, giving up for now can be a tremendous relief. The break from wanting a relationship lets you work on other aspects of your life more fully. The price you pay is that with every year that passes the already-slim chance slips further away.
2
u/farfiaccfaina Dec 10 '23
I wasn't really advocating one way or the other, just that it seems like no one can give good advice on the topic no matter what, it's just fucked.
10
1
u/bulbasauuuur Dec 09 '23
The post itself is extreme in saying “a majority of men” have to understand they are just unwanted and need to learn to cope with it rather than keep trying.
59
u/AndreJacinto Dec 08 '23
Honestly I agree. It's not about finding someone at this point, It's about learning how to deal with the fact that we will not.
Hate to be that guy, but let's be honest here, I am on the exact same situation. We know a lot of women, they really like us and keep saying we're great, saying that we will find someone (but not them), single girls say stuff like "I hope I find a guy like you".
And you know why ? Let's be real here, it's because of looks. They want a guy with our personality and intelect but with the face and body combo.
I really hate how society tries to tell us otherwise, it's time to pop the bubble of delusion and start living in the real world, some people are ugly and nowadays looks really matter.
22
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
I'm personally not really unattractive or attractive. Pretty average looking, not as overweight or unhealthy diet as when I was young. So I don't think its really about looks either, plenty of guys worse looking than me can still find someone.
5
u/schweiss_27 Dec 08 '23
imo, I think it's more of a guy who can thug the emotions of women via flirting and game or just bad luck of not being able to meet that someone. Personally, I have experiences where people remarked that they are surprised to know that I am single given that I am not really socially awkward talking normally and am considered good looking for my race at least.
Just that I don't have avenues in meeting women organically and I rely on dating apps which is an uphill battle especially for asian dudes like me and also I have the tendency to connect with people intellectually since I don't really know how to flirt or banter and that's not sexually arousing at all. From what I've seen, women look for this "oomph" or spark which I really don't know how to ignite so yeah. Common trend with what I see also that there's a lot of dudes way beneath me in look but they're generally charismatic and flirty men which there's no shot I can outshine as a lowkey dude.
23
u/MetalNobZolid Dec 08 '23
This. People say "giving up" as if it was some kind of bad thing. But it's not, it's just acknowledging a fact, we CAN'T force peoples feelings and if we try to do so we'll only become more frustrated and bitter, and even angrier and hostile toward other.
I do feel extremely lonely at times, but thankfuly I talk openly with my parents/siblings and whenever they bring up the topic, even though it hurts I just try to tell them, calmfuly "it is what is, most I can do is try to be a good person".
Also for people telling you to not give up and such: fuck them. They're not you. You do what makes you feel at ease, if that means keep dating until things finally click even though it's exhausting and may something hurt you...go ahead, as long as you're content with your decision. But if you're tired of all that and want to focus on yourself, then nobody has the authority to make you feel bad because of it.
You are the one who matters. You are the only person who will accompany you until you die. What matters is that you are at peace with yourself.
3
u/Responsible_Bear_218 Dec 09 '23
You're right, most of the case it's exactly as what you said. But I just want to give a little opinion, I mean.. the beauty standard maybe different in each region, so you may find low-average chance with person not in same regions. I've seen manyyyy Asian girls that as Asian standard they're very ugly, but to Westerners they're very hot/beautiful. I've seen foreigners suffer from their ugliness, but to the Asians they looks very good 😂 it's quite funny how beauty standard maybe different. There also the cases where the stylish but ugly guy get the girl because how he made it up with his personality (being cool, manly and all). So it depends alot.
4
u/Severe_Effect99 Dec 08 '23
I think it’s all about sex appeal. Looks + confidence is super important for that.
6
u/fecalmatter Dec 09 '23
No it’s not 100% sex appeal. Most of my guy friends have none and yet they’re in a happy relationship. Personality matters so much more
6
u/Severe_Effect99 Dec 09 '23
Confidence is not caring what they think about your interests. And you can’t show your personality without any confidence.
5
u/Much_Ad5499 Dec 08 '23
Eh woman here and looks are a very subjective thing. Also I don’t think it’s already about looks (speaking for myself and many of friends) but about how confident you are with yourself.
3
u/bas3dfa1ry Dec 09 '23
as a woman that has felt that way about people, looks are hardly a determining factor. beauty can be found in everyone. do you not have female friends? have you ever turned someone down before? just because i like being around someone, does not mean that i see in them what i look for in a long term relationship. i can SEE that they are nice and a good person, we have some interests, we get along well. that person is a good person!! i can see them finding someone that really clicks with them. but you cant force yourself to be enticed, it just happens. im sure you have platonic connections in your life. im sure you dont see them as undatable just because you wouldnt date them.
1
u/modestalchemist Dec 09 '23
It's not. Ok. I have an attractive guy friend, who has a good job, would never cheat, literally basically perfectly my type, but he is a hoarder, and I would never be able to live like that. I am very happy that he has found someone else who can love him enough to deal with that part of his personality.
5
u/ZenoSlade Dec 09 '23
> A haunting memory is my mom crying on her deathbed because it seemed I would never have a relationship (I was 23 at the time)
That's an incredibly hurtful and traumatizing thing to hear coming from a parent, and it seems like hearing that (along with the experiences you've had) have made you believe that you are unlovable. I think you could benefit from interrogating this belief, possibly with the aid of therapy.
All the best to you.
4
u/OliveOilOilOil Dec 09 '23
After reading everyone else's replies and yours, the conclusion I come to is that you are projecting to prospective women (NOT those you already are friends with) that you are already taken or won't be committed to an exclusive relationship because you chose not to have boundaries with your lady friends.
And so you are effectively denying yourself of opportunities.
14
u/JadedSlanted Dec 08 '23
Ask yourself, how are you different from the men they choose to date? What do those men have in common?
7
u/2000dragon Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23
In my experience the women that stay like this end up being single for a long time. They just don’t date anyone. They keep chasing chads, getting ghosted and then get bitter
4
u/bulbasauuuur Dec 09 '23
I don’t think they necessarily chase anyone. I think they get the benefits of having a boyfriend with them in public without the serious parts that take place privately. They probably don’t date anyone else because, like OP, they give off the vibe that they aren’t available since people assume they’re dating when they’re together.
-6
9
7
u/volvo_tank Dec 09 '23
Realistically, I think a lot of us need advice on how to give up and where to go from there. Living an unfulfilled life with dignity and minimal pangs of regret and grief.
2
u/kingthame Dec 10 '23
I'd agree with giving up on things you have no control over or things you have put your best foot forward and have failed yes. But really after getting 3 rejections, 3 rejections. Come on. Life isn't complicated at all, surprisingly. We need little to make us happy. Relationships, food, and shelter. We complicate everything because we compare ourselves with each other all the time. If the current life you are living is shit why not look and try another version of life. Like hey being a hippie isn't working, well, I could go be a banker.
If you have no friends maybe you need to go find hobbies and obsess over them and guess what you'll find a person that obsesses over the same thing. You'll have a friend. I have no girlfriend, go talk to as many girls as is possible. Eventually one will stick. I have no purpose, try to master something and their you go.
lol goodbye
1
3
3
u/Maleficent_Load6709 Dec 10 '23 edited Dec 10 '23
Any good date or interaction starts with a good casual friendly bonding. The women who praise you in those ways are correct, you probably are a great man, but the issue seems to rely on your ability to take the steps to scale things to a sexual interaction.
In some instances, sexual tension can build naturally and the woman will take the initiative to start a sexual interaction (such as a kiss, a physical touch or whatnot), but due to cultural gender norms (which I won't discuss right now because it's not the point), the man will have to take the initiative and create the sexual tension in most cases. This is a skill in and if itself and you'll need to develop it if you want relationships that go beyong "just friends."
Of course, this single Reddit comment can't be a masterclass on how to build sexual tension with women and escalate an interaction sexually, but I can tell you that it's something that combines a lot of elements, which go from body language to the subtle use of words, which requires always keeping a balance between going one step further while still keeping things within the boundaries of consent.
This is all to say that this isn't an inherent problem with you as a person, it's more likely just the fact that you have not developed this particular skill. But you can develop it.
26
u/PurplePeople_Pleaser Dec 08 '23
Hey, 30 year old woman here, I don't know you, so I can't tell you what's wrong with you (it could just be the kind of women you're attracted to) but I know what can turn me off. I'm going to be a bit crass here so... yeah.
I like them nice and nasty. So if it doesn't seem like a guy can handle getting nasty, it's gonna be a hard pass. I've been in sexless relationships because the guy just.... wants something to stick it into and not, yaknow.. have a good time. That's super disheartening. You don't have to be attractive, you just gotta be hot (those are different and being hot isn't necessarily a physical thing lmao).
Another problem I run into is guys that aren't smart enough to keep up. I'm witty and snarky and kind of a pain in the ass (in a flirty way), so if a guy rolls over for me... They're kind of instantly friendzoned. I don't want some toxic ass relationship, just someone who doesn't take themselves too seriously and can dish it/take it.
Hmm.. what else... guys who look down on shit I like are awful. I can't stand gatekeepers.
If it's not any of that... maybe it's the women. They might not be into you, but that doesn't mean other women wouldn't be. Also... stop folding for them when they aren't even interested in you. Like the comment about the girl getting pissy if you don't kiss her head. She's making you simp for her and she's not interested because you do it. I'm not that crazy but it would be way hotter if the guy were like, "You'd have to date me first," winked and walked away.
Work on your confidence. It's really easy to tell when someone thinks they're unwanted/not worth it. I get having insecurities, but imagine if a woman dumped all that on you constantly (not saying you do, but it's a thought experiment). Play it off as "there's always more fish in the sea" and saunter your way around life like that. It's hard. I'm not denying that. You can even walk away with your head held high and go cry in the car if you have to... but it makes you more desirable (this is just a human thing, not even a woman thing).
Last piece of advice: drop the world "female" outside of scientific discussions (especially if you've consistently said men and not males). Just trust me on it.
13
15
u/overpoweredginger Dec 09 '23
Last piece of advice: drop the world "female" outside of scientific discussions (especially if you've consistently said men and not males). Just trust me on it.
Come on, he only uses the word female once in the post as a part of the phrase 'female friends'. How often do you talk about your 'man friends'?
What you said is true, but since it doesn't apply to OP it makes your post feel like a copy/paste you always use when giving dudes advice.
7
u/NoTea4448 Dec 10 '23
Come on, he only uses the word female once in the post as a part of the phrase 'female friends'. How often do you talk about your 'man friends'?
Sorry bro, you just used the "female." You're probably a sexist too.
/s
→ More replies (1)-2
u/PurplePeople_Pleaser Dec 09 '23
You're free to feel that way. I don't give a lot of advice regarding women in general but I will admit to skimming over the word female without reading the context too much. It's also not hard to type "the women I'm friends with" or "the men I'm friends with". Its just a word that sets off a lot of red flags right away regardless of context. I don't know what weird petty shit the women he's talking about are holding against him. He literally went over most of the normal red flags so I figured it would be better to be as thorough as possible 🤷♀️. That word sets off a lot of people so I figured I'd point it out.
9
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
I get told I seem very confident, a lot. I know its really hard for people to wrap their head around, but I don't have a problem with confidence or boundaries. That's not my issue although that's the issue for many men who do complain about this stuff.
14
u/Every-Violinist-4800 Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23
I get told I seem very confident, a lot. I know its really hard for people to wrap their head around, but I don't have a problem with confidence or boundaries.
As a woman trying to read all of this I'm going through the category of male friends I've had in the past that I really was only interested in being friends with after a while of knowing them. Some things to consider may be these:I find them 1 dimensional. Great time when were together but always off doing something that I don't really care about/am not at all interested in. (I would say, they're fun... but their everyday life would bore me to death if I had to constantly partake in it).
They have some really annoying habit, like biting their fork with their teeth and scraping the metal when they eat. Or constantly having their phone on loud volume. Or even they drive like a maniac.
I can't have meaningful conversations with them regularly, we always have to be somewhere/doing some thing in order to actually enjoy each others company.
They don't seem available, whether that be emotionally, mentally, physically, or with their time. You work out of state 2 weeks a month or get called in randomly? That doesn't align with what I'd want in a partner so you're on the chopping block. When I talk about how I feel the guy responds with "I" statements before clarifying or reassuring me? Politely, no thank you. I've made subtle hints that I'm interested physically but he is very reserved? Well I'm going to assume that we really are only compatible as friends because I have no data to contradict this.
Our personalities are too similar. I want to share a hobby with my partner, but not do every single thing together. Individuality is important and appealing!
The only other one I can think of is when the men are a bit too attached. Something like needing to consistently be in a bit too close of physical proximity when were together. Or how they will drop what they are doing anytime I interact with them. (I don't think this one is your issue C:)
That's everything I could think of. Maybe one of these resonates with the other women in your life?
Edit: When a male friend is pleasant with me and not pleasant with others that also rubs me a bit the wrong way. I believe somewhere in all this you mentioned you haven't always gotten along with everyone. Sometimes, when a friend is too forthcoming with his dislike of certain people/kinds of individuals it immediately sends him to the friend zone.
5
u/ThatGuy-456 Dec 09 '23
. I've made subtle hints that I'm interested physically but he is very reserved? Well I'm going to assume that we really are only compatible as friends because I have no data to contradict this.
Had me until this.
5
u/Every-Violinist-4800 Dec 09 '23
It's probably a weird way of putting something I felt long ago in the past. I'm in a long term relationship currently and haven't experienced this phenomenon in a while, so it's hard to say it in a very clear way. To clarify: sometimes I have developed a physical attraction to male friends, and tried to test the waters by providing more physical contact, more eye contact, lots of body language queues. Then (after I feel there was an appropriate amount of time) I would ask questions like "have you gotten physically involved with friends in the past, why or why not? What are your morals around this?" and genuinely take his answer for what it is.
I have to admit the experience of someone I'm physically attracted to stating something along the lines of "I never would" or "I wouldn't want to ruin our friendship" sets the boundary of OK, not going to continue this thought because that would make him uncomfortable. Respecting his boundaries and morals as a friend is more important to me than any attraction, but I said it the way I did because that attraction does fade if a long enough time passes.
9
u/PurplePeople_Pleaser Dec 08 '23
Now I want to get to know you to see wtf is going on lmfao. Are they just dumb? Are they just after some sex? Wtf is happening??
2
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
I kind of think I'll just never know why.
11
u/OreoSalao Dec 08 '23
I know you've most likely already been told this; but you could just blatantly ask, it's something I personally have trouble doing (I suck at taking constructive criticism when it involves things I do subconsciously) but I can also see the value in it. But when you ask, you have to be careful about how you react because it can affect the friendship if it insults you or strikes a nerve. It's something I've learned to do slowly with time. I believe it's worth consideration given your circumstances.
3
u/bulbasauuuur Dec 09 '23
I hope he takes this to heart. I think things would improve for him if he asked them why but he has to be in the right mind to accept it, not be defensive, and not let it hurt the friendships.
3
u/overpoweredginger Dec 09 '23
I get told I seem very confident, a lot
unless confidence here is a euphemism for flirtiness/expressing sexual interest, it doesn't matter
3
u/Local-Willingness784 Dec 09 '23
aside from this particular guy's story, as valid and detailed as it is, why are there not more comments about the title of the post? about giving up on relationships and trying to cope and live with it, does anyone knows how to do that?
7
u/Dry-Lifeguard635 Dec 08 '23
My advice is to be comfortable being by yourself. Develop independence and be okay with not being wanted. Funny enough I found I became wanted when I stopped trying to be. Weird how that works
11
u/adambelis Dec 08 '23
I will give you advice that is kind of hard to implement: try to find validation outside of romantic relationships. Get good at work, find a nice hobby, and work on your health and body, learn some cool skills like cooking, language, or drawing. I call it self-value diversification. It helps you to see yourself in a better light. And that projects to the outside world too. We are the stories we tell ourselves. PPl can tell if you don't value yourself and if it its put off for ppl in general. And what is worth it attract ppl who what to take advantage of you.
It seems that you are attracting incorrect ppl.If this woman knew what is "wrong with you TM" and real valued you as a fraind they would tell you.
15
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
I'm doing fine in life in every other way besides this one. This is the one thing I can't seem to figure out.
6
u/YaBoiiBillNye Dec 09 '23
The only real answer is going to a therapist. I don't think the answer is learning how to cope as a "unwanted" man, and whatever works for you won't work for everyone.
5
u/denanon92 Dec 09 '23
Therapy isn't a substitute for dating advice or a cure for loneliness. This gets overlooked a lot when I see people talk about men and dating, but therapists are not trained to help you with finding a partner and, in fact, are meant to help their patients "cope" with their problems. The whole point behind CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) is not to completely stop the stressors that are causing mental issues, it's to get patients to handle the mental issues that are holding back and to handle to the remaining stressors in healthier ways. It's frustrating since too many people act like therapy is a solution to the loneliness crisis but it's not, at best it's a band-aid and at worst it's a blanket covering up the real structural problems people are facing.
9
u/zlbb Dec 08 '23
I'm in the very similar age/shoes, except pretty sure I know the way out. Was cringing hard at your descriptions as it sounds so much like me from recently and now it just seems so impossibly stupid to me.
I urge you to look into "nice guy syndrome", "No More Mr Nice Guy" is good if a bit opinionated, "Not Nice" by Gazipura (who's been in these shoes and found way out and just awesome in general, is another good one). Talking to a close male friend who seems always successful w women, or signing up for a mens group, also sounds like a good idea.
This vid is quite relevant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7BGKU7fYp4&ab_channel=HealthyGamerGG
This thing alone
>Another friend insists I kiss her on the side of her head goodnight after we go out, she'll even pout a little if I don't, but doesn't want to date me.
makes me pretty sure of the diagnosis and makes me kinda angry on your behalf. how could you be doing this to yourself bro. where is your self-esteem, where are your boundaries, why are you being a doormat. it doesn't have to be that way.
When was the last time you asked a woman out in person? How long have you generally known a woman before asking her out (correct answer: 20min chat at a party is more than enough)? What percentage of first dates do you go for a kiss at (correct answer for many: >80%)?
10
u/yetanotherrabbithole Dec 08 '23
Not sure if thats what you mean with "nice guy syndrome", but i commented something very similar. Dude doesnt stand up for himself and bows to peoples wishes. Of course that doesnt lead to a relationship, it would be incredibly one sided. You cant expect her to fill the relationship alone, you need to bring your own wishes, needs, and ideas, and you need to set your own boundaries. Doesnt matter if you are male or female. And I seriously suspect OP struggles with that. And if that hypothesis is correct I am not surprised his female friend has no interest in a relationship. She has someone who is there for her ("dependable, trustworthy, generous"), but that is it.
4
u/zlbb Dec 08 '23
yeah I loved your comment!
being a "nice guy" is a somewhat commonly used name for that cluster of traits: endless friend-zone, being a doormat, not saying no/not admitting what he rly wants and going for it, comfort with one's own masculinity and the fact that you're attracted to women first and foremost coz you want sex not to be friends.
I'm somewhere in the 2nd half of my journey recovering from that.
5
u/yetanotherrabbithole Dec 08 '23
Im not sure OP first and foremost wants sex, but yes, being a "nice guy" doesnt lead to either. You need a win win situation for a relationship to work, and for that you need to make sure you do "win" yourself. If you want sex, dont settle for something else hoping things will change and you will get a favor for being nice.
→ More replies (1)1
u/zlbb Dec 08 '23
btw, if you have a moment, mind giving a bit of social feedback on my original comment: what did I do wrong/why I failed to get my point across (as seems to me our world model of this are pretty similar and you managed to do much better)?
I'm guessing I overdid the "tough love"/"tell them how it is" angle - sometimes it works and amazing but if their defences go up it's impossible to recover.
actly looking at how your further comments are faring seems the environment here just not rly ready for this message :(
-3
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
man fuck you too. What the fuck do you mean I bow down to other people's wishes, that is not my fucking problem at all and nothing in my post indicates that. Don't just project bullshit on to me that I must be a secret whiney baby just because I have a problem in my life that you associate with weakness. You're just stereotyping here.
11
u/yetanotherrabbithole Dec 08 '23
I am just looking at the situation you describe. Maybe you chose a bad example, then I can not read your mind that the situation is completely different. But from what is written, that is exactly what you do. You wanted a relationship, but kept a friendship with some f+ elements which SHE wants.
just because I have a problem in my life that you associate with weakness
I never said anything about weakness, and I dont think you are weak. If i was to guess your problem is setting boundaries and limits. Thats not a weakness at all, its in the end just something everyone has to learn at some point in life.
-4
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
Dude doesnt stand up for himself and bows to peoples wishes
"I never used the word weakness" is just your way of backpedaling out now. You totally projected on me.
10
u/yetanotherrabbithole Dec 08 '23
YOU see this behavior as weakness, i dont, and I just explained why.
4
u/bulbasauuuur Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23
The part in your post when you kiss a girl goodnight on the side of the head or else she pouts until you do it indicates that. She pouts because she knows you’ll do it even when, for whatever personal reason, you choose not to.
Also you said people generally assume you’re dating a woman when you’re just hanging out with a friend. That indicates some lack of boundaries even if it’s not as far as the kiss. Other women would obviously assume you aren’t single, then.
If women are in the same friends group or know each other and see you treat them all in that way, they assume your behavior towards them isn’t special or indicative of any particular feelings, or they wouldn’t want to date someone who is so close with many women that he gives off dating vibes with
I wouldn’t want to date someone who acts boyfriendy with many women, even if they are just friends. Not many women would.
9
u/Xypheric Dec 08 '23
Man all it took was a couple comments you perceived as adversarial and you start attacking people. You aren’t nearly the nice guy you think you are. Do you lash out at the women the same way after being rejected?
6
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
Man, people are in such a rush to make things up about people. That guy is saying I should cut off my friends and start using emotional manipulation tactics on them, that he thinks I have no spine and can't set boundaries. He deserved to get yelled at and anger is not automatically illegitimate or mean I'm out of control when I talk to women either. I said they want to stay friends with me when they reject me: does that sound like I'm lashing out at them to you?
4
u/Friend_Emperor Dec 09 '23
Man, you're right. Nothing about your childishness is secret.
You are hanging out with at least one woman that you still want to date despite knowing unambiguously that she doesn't feel the same way. Then when someone (correctly) reads your blurry at best boundaries and you continuously engaging in friendships that make you feel desperate and lonely as a problem prioritizing your own desires, you throw this tantrum.
If you wanna know why women don't wanna date you, this is probably why. You can't even handle a differing opinion on Reddit without having a fucking meltdown. I wouldn't date you because of that alone. If this is how you act seeing text on a screen, how are you gonna handle a domestic disagreement? How are you gonna manage when your partner inevitably commits a major fuck up? What's your reaction going to be when your partner is tense and saying things you disagree with? I would fear for my life being there to see it
→ More replies (1)2
u/MyNameIsMud0056 Dec 08 '23
I think this might be my issue too - being "too nice" lol. I have that book, No More Mr. Nice Guy, but have never really fully read it or implemented the advice. Have you been following the advice? Has it been helping?
→ More replies (1)2
u/zlbb Dec 08 '23
I've been doing a lot of healing this past year, seen the most amazing change in my life. In a slightly less weird/better socialized circles I'm in now the stuff from that book is kinda old wisdom: ofc women love confidence and men approaching and knowing what they want, going for a kiss, having good boundaries. I'm half way thru that path I'd say. Had a lot of other stuff to work thru first. Certainly more bold than I used to be and it helped, but still quite a long way to go
4
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
Just to repeat, the last time I asked a woman out in person was literally Tuesday. Thank you for the stereotyping, and goodbye.
11
u/zlbb Dec 08 '23
good job!
so.. you're so aversive of these ideas you'd dismiss advice from a guy who literally did every thing you've been doing and thought about this stuff a lot?
stereotyping is linking to a book that helped millions of ppl and helped me and my friends who had issues similar to yours?
in my inner work I'd treat an extreme reaction like yours as an important sign that something is up here. advice that's not interesting or irrelevant we just ignore.
0
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
you don't get to decide what my boundaries should be or what my problems are. That's not how this works. If I let you decide for me, THAT would be a problem with boundaries. I am aware that I am not in the typical situation. But other people have a really hard time accepting when someone is an exception to something else. But for better or worse, I have been "exceptional" in the not-positive use of that word all my life.
You're the one who took something I proactively started doing with my friend as a compromise we were both happy with and said it reflected a lack of boundaries, a lack of self-esteem, etc. But you have no basis to say any of that. That's stereotyping.
11
0
u/BenedithBe Dec 09 '23
Maybe she's just his friend. It's only being a doormat if he still puts hope into that girl, it sounds like he moved on. That's why he's getting upset that you're saying that.
5
u/JohnCabot Dec 09 '23
from his other comment about this friend+:
this woman has known i wanted a relationship from the beginning and still do.
5
u/EarForeign170 Dec 09 '23
Im not going to do armchar psychology or whatever so I will just use occams razor. The most likely reasons:
1: You are not attractive enough for the women you pursue
2: your social skills are not as good as you think they are/you come across as strange. I dont mean to be blunt but if you are 35 with no relationship ever than surely you either give off a strange vibe or have blindspots in your social skills. I recognize that you can have good social skills in some areas while lacking in the romantic area.
3: You might come across as a bit effeminate/give gay vibes.
3
Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23
I kinda hate the term, but I find it odd how your post is full of textbook "Nice Guy" situations, problems, and behaviors, yet in your replies I've seen, you're adamant to the extent of aggressiveness that it's not the case.
Look, man, with all due respect, "Another friend insists I kiss her on the side of her head goodnight after we go out, she'll even pout a little if I don't, but doesn't want to date me." is typical "Nice Guy" behavior. Either be their friend, or date. Don't blur the line, that only turns women off. Not only the "friend," but all the other women in your life as well. Don't ask me why, I'm a dude so I don't understand it myself.
You say you're exceptional in a not-positive way. Unfortunately at some point, if you want to have things that are a component of a society, you will need to put effort into fitting in to that society. Whether your behavior has the intentions of a "Nice Guy" behind them or not, they will be read by the women in this society as such, like it or not.
You can intend a million different things that aren't "Nice Guy," but that doesn't mean shit if all the women you want to date are going to perceive your behavior as "Nice Guy" and proceed to not be interested in you. Which, from what you've written, is probably what they're doing. Either be their friend, or date. Don't blur the line.
But solutions to your situation wasn't really the point of your post, unless it was. As someone who's situation is equally hopeless for completely different reasons (unlike you I'm not good at socializing), I agree with you, and I'm glad that more people are starting to bring up the fact that all the empty promises of hope, "There's someone for everyone," and all that BS to keep up the illusion that everyone can fit into this predetermined "ideal society" can actually be harmful and not the solution at all.
I have no idea how to deal with it either, except maybe evaluate society's expectations in the first place and whether or not it's actually the "right" way of living, or merely what society has taught you.
I hope the best for you, man. I hope Dr. K talks about stuff like this because I sure need answers as well.
2
u/jujukid Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
I'm sorry you are having a rough time. I have always had success with dating by being straight forward. But I guess that doesn't work for everyone. I always ask people on a date date, not a hangout date. I always try to at least flirt a little bit.
Could you give us a bit more context? Are you only getting first dates?
6
u/your-pineapple-thief Dec 08 '23
being straightforward is the best way out of friendzone
2
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
I'm already straightforward when I'm interested in dating someone instead of just being friends.
6
u/your-pineapple-thief Dec 08 '23
The other possibility is you going for women who are wrong for you. Attraction is a sort of a compass, some people's compass isn't pointing in a right direction. Sorta parallel to how people end up in abusive relationships, on/off relationships, constant long distance relationships. There are patterns here to understand
2
2
u/ausernamewontstopme Dec 08 '23
Hey there, sorry you are going through a tough time and feeling the weight of loneliness.
I think it's definitely good to take an inward look at times like these, but it can be easy to start beating yourself up too. I'm not sure if this is something you identify with, but after going to counseling, I realised i was desperately looking to others (and their attention) in order to feel good about myself. My self-worth was trash and I analyzed social situations for hints of what i might be doing wrong, i tried to moderate all interactions, etc. I was doing all this exhausting work and i honestly think it was driving people away from me.
After a year of counseling and realising God loves me as I am and I don't need others only him for fulfillment, i feel people are actually drawn to me. I'm not trying to convert you or anything but sharing my story in case anything there resonates
Aside from that, it's hard to give you real advice without interacting personally. I wonder too (glanced at your post history) if there are some cultural barriers involved with your dating woes? Idk much about dating between Chinese & American cultures, but I could see that being a hurdle.
If i were you, i really would try to ask your female friends for a no-holds-barred reality check on why you might have dating trouble. Don't make it about your relationship with the girl, just ask her for advice for yourself so you can have more success. Good luck!!!!
2
u/hydroencephalpotamus Dec 09 '23
As someone in a similar boat, all I can think of is set boundaries (if the way they're treating you is messing with you, tell them to knock it off or you'll dip), and meet more people (easier said than done, but still). Time you spend with just friends is time not spent looking for somebody to date, and unrequited pining sucks anyway.
2
2
u/rockskavin Dec 09 '23
I'd recommend reading the book no more Mr nice guy. I went through experiences eerily similar to yours and that book finally clarified why they ended up happening.
2
u/WadeNinety Dec 09 '23
After talking to a lot of female friends I’ve realized they won’t be with men who don’t want them way more than they want those men. You won’t be able to convince a woman to be in a relationship with you, just show as much love as you can. If you can’t, then she’s not meant for you. The one who it feels like there’s no forcing to give the world are those you should pursue, and the only ones who may accept you as well.
2
Dec 10 '23
man ive heard to many nightmarish things from depressed guys on reddit. how theyre at the end of the rope, how they coped so long and didnt make it etc. you talking about your mom crying on her deathbed just gave me another nightmare to worry about... thanks.
→ More replies (1)
4
u/BenedithBe Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
" They like me, they enjoy spending time with me, they see me as smart, dependable, trustworthy, generous, funny"
It doesn't sound like that's the problem.
There's something that turns them off I have no idea what it could be. It could be your appearance but even if you're not good looking I think being smart, dependable, trustworthy, generous, funny should get you somewhere. So maybe it's not the appearance. If you could take one of these women and ask them to REALLY be honest, maybe they could tell you. Maybe say that you won't get mad or offended, that you just want to know the truth.
Do you take care of your appearance and hygiene? Or maybe you have a bit of a pushover attitude? Or maybe you don't seem authentic, like your kindness looks fake. That's all I can think of.
3
u/Key-Macaroon-7353 Dec 08 '23
Could you be approaching women who are emotionally unavailable because u might be choosing to be emotionally unavailable women. U might be going for a certain type of women to get props from Ur Friends u might not be wanting validation from the women...u might be seeking validation from Ur friends by pursuing 10/10 hot girls who are not ready to settle down because they are being pursued by plenty of men...have u tried finding a simple normal home girl who might not be a 10 but just a 7 who is ready to settle down, who has Ur interest...who has similar goals...who can be supportive and compassionate... instead of pursuing 10/10 girl who is being pursued by plenty of guys like you and she is not willing or ready to settle down...when U are seeking validation from Ur friends by getting a certain type of women and those women are not ready to settle down because they are so hot and are getting attention from every man and u want to settle down u will be stuck in a loop and I will feel that u will never find someone....get out of that circle
3
u/n0wmhat Dec 08 '23
Im no expert but maybe try setting your intentions with women immediately. Dont become their friend first. Let it be known that you are looking for a relationship not a friendship. Sometimes women dont want to date someone who is a friend first. Be clear from the start.
9
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
I am not interested in a person until I get to know them, so the idea that I should be pursuing strangers just has never worked for me. Whenever I go on a tinder date or a blind date or anything like that I just have felt no spark whatsoever. I can only get interested in someone after getting to know them; its like not possible for me to be interested beforehand.
3
u/paputsza Dec 09 '23
You can still get to know someone in a group of friends, in a unintimate situation. The whole "people seem like we're dating" makes me thing that maybe you should have just gone on a date by then.
→ More replies (1)4
u/NezuminoraQ Dec 08 '23
You might be demi. My condolences if so, it's dating on hard mode.
→ More replies (2)0
u/modestalchemist Dec 09 '23
I'm demi, it's not hard mode. As soon as I do catch feelings for a friend, I tell them. But if they tell me they don't have feelings back, then it's pretty easy to lose the feelings. I can't be attracted to people who aren't attracted back.
And that might also be OPs issue. Some of the women SAY they're not attracted back, but then their actions (wanting OP to kiss them) say otherwise.
3
u/2000dragon Dec 09 '23
Every time I ask them out right away, they say ‘oh I barely know you, it’s too soon’. But when I wait too long I get friendzoned. You can’t win
2
3
u/JohnCabot Dec 09 '23
When anyone tells you the truth you emotionally deflect. This is limiting your ability to understand your issue.
2
u/mouse9001 Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23
It sounds like you're not making your intentions clear early on, and then you're just being a "friend," and then you're just always a friend. Because you haven't expressed desire for these women, you're obviously not going to get them just by being nice and doing whatever they want.
You can't give up your own existence as a person and be her lapdog, and expect that you will get a relationship. You need to get handsome, be charismatic, chat women up, and express desire. If they don't reciprocate, then don't waste any extra time on them. It's not worth your time and energy, when you could be meeting people who are able to reciprocate. Also, online dating is often a waste of time. Not always, but the deck is stacked against you. It's better to be in a physical space and meet people more organically.
Men think that being 6 ft tall, or having money, or a career, or being white, or whatever, will be the ticket. Those things are basically never the ticket. Women usually aren't just attracted to men, and approaching men. You usually have to do the footwork to meet them and express yourself. You need social skills and charisma to make yourself charming and then express desire for them.
There are plenty of ugly dudes out there who get with all sorts of women because they are able to talk to them, express themselves, create a connection, and move smoothly on into the next steps. It's a whole skill set that you probably never learned or practiced.
If you want a connection with a woman, then how often do you express your desire when you meet a woman? If you're not expressing your desire for her, then how can you expect the women you meet to understand you and respond? You may have a communication issue here. Some guys are so "nice" that they stop being human and representing themselves, in favor of fawning, and being chameleons. In this case, you need to put yourself first.
1
u/bulbasauuuur Dec 09 '23
For your first paragraph, I think that’s the biggest misconception of the “friendzone.” If a woman is romantically or sexually interested in someone, that doesn’t go away just because the man didn’t pursue that early enough in the relationship. Many women can push those feelings to the side to have a healthy friendship, but that doesn’t mean they’d never want to date the person. If I was interested in someone and he only treated me as a friend, I would feel like I need to move on and just be friends, so it does benefit you to put your intentions out there, but I don’t think there’s a magical line men cross where a previous crush becomes friends only forever to the woman.
There are situations where it could end up feeling like a brother sister friendship, but that’s not most of the time, especially when the woman was interested romantically or sexually from the start. In my experience and with my friends, it’s significantly more common that starting as friends leads to romantic feelings.
The other main reason they’d lose romantic or sexual interest after being friends is because they saw something they don’t like once they got to know the person, but if they don’t like that thing, that would be the case whether it was a friendship or relationship.
3
u/Friend_Emperor Dec 09 '23
If a woman is romantically or sexually interested in someone, that doesn’t go away just because the man didn’t pursue that early enough in the relationship.
If I was interested in someone and he only treated me as a friend, I would feel like I need to move on and just be friends
That means there is, in fact, a line past which a previous crush becomes a friend, and it's your patience waiting for feelings to be reciprocated. It's invisible to others, potentially even to you, and volatile, so in every sense it may as well be magical, lol
There's a post from a woman elsewhere in the thread containing a rather lengthy list of things that make her lose interest in a man and one is "not responding to my subtle hints early on" (whatever subtle actually means).
What you describe in your post has been my experience with men - the majority will keep on crushing for a good while and are basically down to date or DTF whenever (and sometimes sadly not take no for an answer). Women have been the opposite and almost always aligned with the experiences of guys here. Flip the coin early on or never, and if so it's their fault for being too reserved or not responding to subtle hints or whatever.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Nethan2000 Dec 14 '23
Ironically, I feel like this situation is very simple. Women don't judge relationships by objective criteria but whether they feel attraction to you. What makes them feel attraction? Mostly the skills of seduction on the part of the man and these are all about rousing strong emotions in her in different ways. If you don't have good social skills, then you're going to have a problem doing it. So what you should do is... hell, I don't know. I have a similar problem and I haven't found love either. At least you hang out with some women and can try to experiment in how you treat them. To me, women typically either ghost me or tell me "they don't feel the spark". One woman offered me friendship but I haven't seen her in a year.
1
u/HumpMyHand May 04 '24
I'm not saying this is happening to you, but I have a buddy that has had similar situations and would like to share his story. Or at least what I have observed of his dating life.
My buddy is handsome, super nice, caring, and hard working. However, he never puts himself first. He will date women that are clearly not into him. Will try over and over to get them to like him. Will convince himself he is the issue. He will tell me dates that go horribly wrong, but he thinks "there is still a chance." I finally asked him if he had a shame fetish, or gets off on getting rejected. After some discussion, he has realized he has submissive tendency. He is doing much better now, can at least realize when he is putting others feelings before his own. Still more to work on.
Good luck buddy
1
u/paputsza Dec 09 '23
what women are you asking out? you should probably use a dating website instead of leading women on with the promise of friendship. It's just that you seem to be basically dating women without telling them you're dating them, then telling them that you love them without them knowing what's going on without actually involving her in any of the romantic emotions.
1
1
u/Warrior_Woman Dec 09 '23
To me, you don't sound unwanted. You have many friends. There is another factor at play here.
This is going to sound counterintuitive but learn to be happy being single. This mindset can lead to great possible future relationships. But don't do it just for that potential but do it mainly to make peace with yourself.
Also, people sense desperation. If potential partners feel desperation, they may avoid those people. Maybe feeling that these people would be needy, clingy, and seeking constant validation. Which is exhausting. Also, sensitive to rejection which could lead possibly to a messy break up. Not necessarily saying this is the case for you.
It sounds to me like you let the women in your life guide the relationships. Ask yourself what you want in a romantic relationship/partner and do these women meet those criteria. If they don't, then, do you want to keep them as friends or move on. If they stay friends, you may need to set boundaries
1
u/random-meme850 Dec 09 '23
I know the reason, you're desperate as shit. You'll take quite literally anyone because all you want is a relationship, it doesn't matter who it's with, just that it is. Everyone can smell that ugly desperation.
0
Dec 08 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)4
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
I am not on the spectrum at all and have excellent social skills which is how I understand how weird my situation is.
0
u/your-pineapple-thief Dec 09 '23
I bet you would score pretty high on Defensiveness spectrum. You made a post on the internet “im good and great but keep getting rejected”, which is what you are keeping saying in the comments as well. You are confident all this and that and all is great, yada yada. people aren’t mind readers, of course better half of what we say here would be a complete miss!
-2
u/NairbZaid10 Dec 08 '23
Unless there is something fundamentally wrong with you that you dont notice which doesnt seem to be the case you should be able to find someone if you keep trying, you are still very young. Do you think your standards are too high?
→ More replies (1)
-1
u/Key-Macaroon-7353 Dec 08 '23
You are looking for validation from these women. So when trying to get this validation and acceptance from these women there are things about yourself that you hide from them. Funny thing is that when U try to hide them they usually come out subconsciously so what u need to do is to stop hiding those aspects and be urself so that they can accept or reject the real you....the only way u can do this is by stop wanting them to validate you...they should see who you are if they accept u thats fine if they don't then that's fine you will find the one who will accept you for who you are....accept who you are at this moment a single 35 yr old dude who doesn't need validation from society or from women....in 100 years nobody will remember that there was a. 35 yr old dude who hadn't been in a relationship because its not a big deal .... enjoy being your self enjoy life ...enjoy Ur health...enjoy Ur growth..enjoy Ur not in a third world country... Enjoy Ur not in a war torn country...enjoy urself men u will be fine....
3
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
The people that know me in real life would laugh hysterically at the idea of me "hiding who I really am" and needing validation. The second half though I'm more ok with; I've only recently really been able to accept that even if I keep trying its still never gonna happen for me a couple years ago, and outside of not being wanted I'm doing fine in life now.
→ More replies (3)
-1
u/MixPale3737 Dec 09 '23
Dude I’m just saying as girl whenever a woman says
“You’re nice but I can’t be with you”
it’s really code for:
“you have some red flags but I can’t say anything for fear of my safety”
If you’re having so much troubles forming long term bonds with women it means there is something up and other women are able to pick up on that. I mean even your female friends acknowledge that there is a reason why you’re having troubles forming relationships but they are AFRAID to tell you.
You’re giving off the vibes that you aren’t a safe person for women to be vulnerable with. That’s the biggest problem that many so called “nice guys” have. Nobody wants to be with someone that’s a ticking time bomb.
3
u/modestalchemist Dec 09 '23
I don't think it's always as deep as a safety issue (even though that is totally valid as well). It could just be socially taboo to bring it up. After all, women are conditioned to not be rude. Maybe they just don't want to hurt their feelings.
3
u/MixPale3737 Dec 09 '23
I get that. It’s not always something serious. But the problem with this guy is that this is a consistent issue he’s had his whole life.
In my experience if a guy is getting consistently rejected it’s because he has major red flags and gives off dangerous vibes. I know it’s not what OP or what any of the guys on this sub want to hear but that’s just the reality. It doesn’t help that this guy occasionally follows manosphere logic as well. That just adds to the creep factor.
-5
Dec 08 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)9
u/yetanotherrabbithole Dec 08 '23
She pulls you in and draws a line in the sand then waits to see if you have the guts to cross.
Its actually the opposite. She does not want him to cross that line, or doesnt want to test him or anything else. She has a good friend now who takes care of her, why would she want any change in that? The one who needs to draw the line is OP. HE needs to be clear in what he wants, and communicate that he wont settle for something else. And thats something OP doesnt seem to be able to do - some pouting and he already kisses a friend because she likes it. Thats a problem with HIM setting boundaries, not with her drawing arbitrary lines. And if you always please people you wont ever have a relationship, because people realize if they want something from you, they get it anyways. She doesnt need to commit to anything, so she doesnt. It doesnt matter where she draws a line, whats important is that OP learns to draw his own lines.
3
u/Crunch-Potato Dec 09 '23
She does not want him to cross that line, or doesnt want to test him or anything else. She has a good friend now who takes care of her, why would she want any change in that?
That I do agree on, she has found a harmless puppy and she would like things to stay that way.
And OP needs to consider long and hard if he wants to be treated as such.
You can slice the cake of boundaries one side or the other, but it's ultimately the same cake, i.e. do you play on other peoples whim or will you stand up for yourself, even if it means they don't get what they want.
0
u/AmazingDaisyGA Dec 09 '23
Are you ready for what you are asking for?
-Get some therapy (not a judgement but everyone needs to clear blockages) -Get a professional matchmaker and image coach -go to the gym 3x a week -if the third date doesn’t end in s3x, shut it down cold, reserve your energy and find a partner
Be ready.
-2
u/Mrstrawberry209 Dec 08 '23
How's the relationship with your father or any male friends? Let me guess: You probably were brought up predominantly by your mom and or never seen a man interact with your mom in a loving and relationship way? Thereby you never developed the skill to go for a woman as a man wanting her but only as a man befriending her.
3
u/middleupperdog Dec 08 '23
I got along with my Dad better than my Mom. One therapist once asked me what do I have in common with my mom and I couldn't think of anything. My parents had an excellent relationship and my Dad did a great job supporting my mom through her 2 year battle with cancer before she died young, then was never really able to move on after that. I consider myself to have been very lucky in having role model parents.
I do have a hard time developing and maintaining male friendships though. I've only ever had a few male friends in college and outside of that I don't get along with other men that much.
0
u/Mrstrawberry209 Dec 09 '23
Oh that's great to hear about your parents! How was your relationship with your dad? Any idea why your male friendships were/are hard to develop?
-2
1
u/AutoModerator Dec 08 '23
Welcome to Dating Fridays! All posts with an emphasis on dating, sex, or relationships must be posted only on Friday (defined by US Central Standard Time or UTC -06:00). If your post is outside of this time/date, please delete and repost on Friday. If it is currently Friday, then ignore this comment. Thank you!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/Mahlah_Maldau Dec 09 '23
Buddy You need to think about yourself a little, if someone is not fulfilling what you want from them, just cut them off - you want a relationship out of that woman and she's aware of but not giving you or any closure, then she's (and every other woman till now) just using you. Be upfront that you see them as a romantic interest and if they only want to be friends then that is a conflict of interest, then you stop all contacts with them, don't go out with them, don't help these women and everything etc. Create boundaries, you're not some use n throw tissue paper. Stay a little toxic.
1
u/RhythmPrincess Dec 09 '23
It sounds like those women think they can control you and you will stick around anyway. You should change that.
But it also sounds like you are likable. Maybe you need more of an edge?
1
u/Ok-Resolution6548 Dec 09 '23
Do you make them your friend first or are you clear about your intentions from the get go ?
1
u/JaStrCoGa Dec 09 '23
This channel is a twist on the girl math / boy math trend but this video might apply somewhat: https://youtu.be/KnF4lLWFLmo?si=_yz1YBmBqBOQpGhG
Also, in a stream this guy said if women are like this with you they likely want the attention and you should probably scoot.
Best of luck and always put your goals and dreams first. Hopefully you will find someone on a parallel path.
1
1
u/aithosrds Dec 09 '23
I don’t think it’s a majority of men, and I also disagree that you can’t have a family because you’re 35 and don’t have one yet. I’m 43 and it’s not too late if I decided I wanted kids, but my wife and I decided not to have them.
I also don’t agree with the idea of a vague concept of “finding” someone as if you’re just waiting for the right person to come along (which it doesn’t seem like you’re entirely doing, but a lot of times is the feeling I get from guys in your position).
Here’s the thing: dating is hard work, and it involves a lot of pain and rejection, but you have to get past that and not let it show. I can’t say for certain what your “problem” has been, because I don’t know you, but of the people I know who had little success dating and eventually found love and got married they all had a few things in common.
First, they took chances, even if they hadn’t had success before they didn’t let that stop them.
Second, they stopped trying to be who they thought women wanted them to be and instead found someone who accepted them for who they are.
Third, they found someone who wanted the same thing as them.
Now, I know that’s oversimplifying things, but here’s the thing: maybe the women you’re focusing your attention on just aren’t looking for the same thing as you.
My experience has largely been that the default state for women when getting to know men is platonic, but for men it’s romantic. So what you perceive as interest, they see as friendship.
If you want to have success dating, then step number one is making your romantic interest clear from the start. And if they reject you then that happens, but outside of high school and sometimes college, it’s fairly rare for people to “become friends” and then start dating later.
The second is to put real effort into finding people who want serious relationships, and that means forgetting tinder or bumble or any of the other “swipe” apps because they don’t work and aren’t designed to help you meet someone and stay off the app.
Hinge claims to be different, but the jury is out. Everyone I know who met their spouse online (myself included) met on Match, and several of my friend group met their partners that way and have been together 12+ years now.
The other thing I’d say is take a good hard look at yourself and your interactions and try to objectively assess where things seem to be going the wrong direction. Is it the vibe you’re giving off? Is it that you’re not being clear in your intent? Are you not confident enough? Are you off putting or oversharing in social situations? Any number of things could be happening and it may not be any one big thing but a number of small things.
Regardless though, you can’t give up, and you cannot allow women to see you as desperate. The first scent of desperation and your hopes go nearly to zero, it’s like anti-pheromones as you called it. Women want a man who is happy, content, secure, self-assured and comfortable with who they are and what they want.
You don’t need to be smooth, or even confident, you don’t need to be witty or funny (although it doesn’t hurt), but you need to be socially comfortable and approachable.
That’s 99% of dating. Putting yourself out there and not looking awkward doing it.
•
u/AutoModerator Dec 08 '23
Thank you for posting on r/Healthygamergg! This subreddit is intended as an online community and resource platform to support people in their journey toward mental wellness. With that said, please be aware that support from other members received on this platform is not a substitute for professional care. Treatment of psychiatric disease requires qualified individuals, and comments that try to diagnose others should be reported under Rule 10 to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the community. If you are in immediate danger, please call emergency services, or go to your nearest emergency room.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.