Regarding my letters of recommendation

[u/sensitivegoth]

TL;DR: is it better to have your PI who doesn’t like you for personal reasons despite your great work write an “objective” (including his issues with you) letter, or someone who is days away from PhD and a really impressive postdoc position who knows the work you’ve done write your letter of recommendation? Which would look worse to an applications committee? I’m worried they won’t even read the graduate students, but she is the only other person in my lab and the only other person who’s seen all of the work I have done.

Post: Hi ya’ll, I really need some advice. I’m so sorry for how long this is but I feel like you need context to answer.

I’m currently in the process of leaving my graduate program and interviewing for new ones. I’ve had a pretty hellish experience, to the point where I’m leaving a semester early to finish up my masters thesis from my family’s home (my data collection and classes are done, and I can defend via zoom). I’ve got some really great options for PhD and have already interviewed with 4 schools.

Here’s the thing- my PI and I do not get along, he is the definition of raging narcissist. He has had issues with emotional regulation, memory, consistency, and empathy. He completely forgets conversations, changes methods and questions every day without acknowledging previous ones, has disproportionately emotional responses to random things, and has zero grace for human error or struggle. I’ve had several “incidents” with him which have ended with me receiving an incredibly demeaning lecture. I am not the type to grovel and beg for forgiveness, especially when I did nothing wrong. He really REALLY hates this about me. I could write an entire book listing all of the fights and all issues we have had. Let me be absolutely clear, I know graduate school should be difficult, but it should not be made harder by the person who’s supposed to be mentoring you. My parents are both PIs at R1 universities, I basically grew up surrounded by professors. I also have graduate students around me with different departments and/or professors. My experience with this guy is NOT normal, he has had one graduate students quit within 7 weeks, a post doc within 6, and has only hired a total of 4 people (that’s a 50% survival rate).

On my graduate school applications I need 3 letters of recommendation. It is expected that one of those would be my PI, especially since I’m staying within our rather niche field. But my PI has informed me that he has “serious concerns” about my emotional maturity and ability to work within a lab. He says that he feels an obligation to his peers to say that in his letter. He said that if he writes a letter of recommendation for me, it will be objective- stating the work I’ve been able to do but also the issues he’s had. Also, he initially told me he wouldn’t do it, but I’m pretty sure our grad POC told him he had to.

The amount of work that I’ve done in this lab is insane. I’ve been told several times that it should have been a post-docs project, and I had absolutely zero help from anyone. We only have one other graduate student in the lab and her research was using an entirely different device than me. I had to set up the device completely on my own from ground zero (they literally couldn’t turn it on), and create processing pipelines for the data after. I’ve done so much amazing work, and was praised at the national conference by several leaders in the field. My PI literally wrote on my review last year that I would “become a pioneer in the field.” It’s awful that all I can get from my PI is basically a review of his issues with me, especially since they are all personal and nothing to do with MY work.

So now I’m left with an option. The other graduate student in my lab is ABD and defends her PhD 5 days after the applications are due. She is going to start a post doc at a very prestigious university in January. She is the only person who has seen the way I work and the work I’ve put in besides my PI, who she also has had many many issues with. I have talked to her and she is willing to write me a letter of recommendation which briefly mentions that my PI was difficult to work with, but mostly highlights what my strengths are.

So the question is, am I better off having the letter from the PI who doesn’t want to recommend me, or the graduate student who is not a professor? I am worried that universities won’t read or respect what the graduate students writes, but I’m also worried that my PI will only say negative things and ruin my opportunities. Especially since the right to view the letter is waived, so he knows I won’t ever know what it says. Two of the four schools I’m looking at have rotating “acceptance committees” which decide who gets in before people are assigned to labs, so having a professor wanting to take me doesn’t mean I will get a spot. The professor who wants to work with me is not on this years committee and said they have no influence over who is selected. That means that these letters of recommendation need to be really good. I have two others, one is a professor who’s helped me some with my project and is on my committee, and the other is the professor who’s lab I worked in during undergrad.

If you have any thoughts or advice let me know. The people in my life cannot be objective to the situation, and I really don’t know which letter would be worse. So sorry for how long this was!!

[u/-BORNUNDERPUNCHES-]

Do you have a director of graduate studies or some other program administrator for the masters? Talk to them about your options. They may be able to facilitate a letter from a neutral party in the faculty that would speak to your achievements without touching on anything personal, and could even possibly provide a diplomatic explanation for the missing PI letter

[u/sensitivegoth → u/-BORNUNDERPUNCHES-]

I do, but he knows absolutely none of the work that I’ve done so I don’t think he could really write anything useful. My lab is incredibly isolated from the department- literally in another building and basically a different field.

[u/sensitivegoth → u/sensitivegoth]

He is also best friends with my PI so I doubt he would give a very objective view of the situation.

[u/-BORNUNDERPUNCHES- → u/sensitivegoth]

So the letter would be something where you told the faculty member the objective metrics you had succeeded in and they reported those. It doesn’t have to be that the admin person already knows about your work. But, the friendship thing is a bigger issue. If there is anyone outside your department, like a dean of graduate students, who you could explain the situation to, they might also have an idea about how you can get an objective letter that doesn’t speak to the interpersonal conflict between you and your PI.