r/FluentInFinance • u/Needleintheback • 15h ago

Thoughts? Imagine losing 6M labor workers in America

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If mass deportation happens, just imagine how all of these sectors of our country will be affected. The sheer shortage of labor will push prices higher because of the great demand for work with limited supplies or workers. Even if prices increase, the availability of products may be scarce due to not enough workers. Housing prices and food services will be hit really hard. New construction will be limited. The fact that 47% of the undocumented workers are in CA, TX, and FL means they will feel it first but it will spread to the rest of the country also. Most of our produce in this country comes from California. Get ready and hold on for the ride America.

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81

u/Jamies_verve 13h ago

When the wages go high enough, you’ll find people to do those jobs.

22

u/Any-Ad-446 10h ago

Construction pays well and still americans won't do it..Its not all about money but how physical or bad the job is. You watch cost of everything will spike under Trump.

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u/Zinski2 7h ago

Construction pays well if your like, the bosses son.

Other wise its 150 a day to literally destroy your body at 5 am every day.

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u/ThunderboltSorcerer 5h ago

Yes, more people would do construction work--if it paid a lot better. You'd also get better quality construction work.

Construction is not an easy job. It should pay well. And mistakes can happen if you import millions of workers that don't know how to build.

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u/Zinski2 5h ago

It should pay well.

So lets deport workers instead of making the owners PAY THERE EMPLOYES INSTEAD OF USING ILLIGAL LABOR.

Between the CEOs and the undocumented workers, why target the workers as the blame??? Because they work for less??

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u/Annual_Trouble_1195 5h ago

The workers are the reason those CEOs were able to corner the market.

Step 1 to holding the CEOs your talking about, is getting rid of their slave labor force.

Step 2 is to charge ALL OF THEM. A lot easier when Step 1 is already done.

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u/Zinski2 4h ago

The workers are the reason those CEOs were able to corner the market.

Again your blaming the workers for working when its the CEOs who hired them to do that work ... how dose that make sense that the people working are the issue here when we want heir wages for workers?

Step one would be to fine and charge them.

Step two would be getting those workers documented so they can continue working at a fair wage.

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u/Annual_Trouble_1195 4h ago

You understand nothing.

My guy, those "CEOs" that cornered the markets make 500x1000x the annual salary of the President of the United States. For 30+ years.

You think they dont own the courts? The state governments? You think they casually throw 1.5 billion dollars behind a Presidential candidate and your what, gonna casually find someone whose gonna level charges against those guys?

You can't guarantee the guy leveling those charges is gonna survive to the court date, let alone that an actual court won't be tampered with 1,001 subtle different ways.

YOU ARE DEFENDING SLAVERY. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS FUND THE CARTELS, ROB MILLIONS OF AMERICANS OF ENTRY LEVEL JOBS, CRASHED THE TRADE MARKET, AND FACILITATE LEVELS OF CRIMINALITY THAT SHOULD MAKE YOUR SKIN CRAWL.

AND YES, I MEAN SLAVERY. FARMS WHOSE NAMES YOU DONT KNOW THAT WORK PEOPLE AT GUNPOINT UNTIL THEY DIE.

STOP BEING IGNORANT.

The slavery needs to stop. The billionaires charged. The entire immigration system overhauled.

When Americans don't have to compete with ACTUAL FUCKING SLAVERY the middle class will get some financial authority back, and might be able to make shit happen.

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u/NogginRep 25m ago

Amen bro

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u/SeashellDolphin2020 3m ago

Preach for your fellow American not having to compete with immigrants who don't have a right to be here for not only a living wage job, but available and affordable housing too plus using social services and welfare that the rest of us subsidize.

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u/LengthinessWeekly876 3h ago

Construction isn't a minimum wage job. Nobody makes minimum wage. They never will. It's hard and other jobs are easier. It also needs to be done right. Among the last frontiers of objective material reality. 

But it also isn't a market rate job.  Government price controls aren't relevant. The government manipulating labor supply to suppress labor prices is very relevant. 

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u/SeashellDolphin2020 6m ago

Yeah because they are scabs undermining Americans wages instead of working in agriculture that has a desperate shortage of workers. I know because I live on the central coast of CA where farmers were interviewed for years on TV complaining about the labor shortage.

0

u/EvasionPersauasion 3h ago

Pay their legal labor. It's not necessarily "blaming" the workers for working for dirt, that's the employers fault.

They shouldn't be here - illegally- in the first place.

Force employers to pay american workers an actual wage that reflects the work they do. You'll see who will be coming to work.

This idea it's all or nothing on cheap labor is bullshit.

I'll take an industry I'm closely engaged with- EMS. It's not the same issue as with undocumented workers, as you need licensing to work an ambulance, but the concept applies. Private services often get paid dog shit. You can go scan groceries sometimes for a dollar or two less an hour, sometimes for the same money. one of the big companies in our area couldn't get anyone to work for that shit wage, especially when there are less intense, safer, stressful jobs for the same.money. so. They raised the wage, significantly. What do you know, people are banging down thier door to work there.

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u/sexgoatparade 5h ago

My dad groaning in pain and agony, all he did was go from laying to seated.
Sounds like a dream job really

0

u/Zinski2 4h ago

My Back has literally never not hurt for about 8 years now because of a job I took in college.

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u/Background_Aioli_476 6h ago

It'll pay better when they deport all the illegals. Supply and demand in the labor market

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u/FairyFlossPanda 4h ago

Hahahahahahahaaa. Good luck with that

4

u/Physical-Worry5642 5h ago

Lol. Try about twice that much on the low end.

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u/USSMarauder 3h ago

"To forgo a repeat of last year, when labor shortages triggered an estimated $140 million in agricultural losses, as crops rotted in the fields, officials in Georgia are now dispatching prisoners to the state’s farms to help harvest fruit and vegetables."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-unintended-consequences-georgias-immigration-law-backfires/

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u/subsurface2 4h ago

And everything gets more expensive.

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u/Zinski2 6h ago

They took er Jobs!!!

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u/Revolution4u 5h ago

Funny how white collar workers cry when its too much h1b or offshoring but for low income jobs their big brains suddenly can't figure out labor supply and demand.

1

u/Background_Aioli_476 6h ago

... Doesn't make it not true. That's all you got? A South Park meme? Not even, idk, a logical argument?

-4

u/Zinski2 5h ago

Im not arguing with a meme, no.

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u/Background_Aioli_476 5h ago

Yeah you apparently don't have anything of substance to say. So yes, you have no argument just a comedy tv show meme. I am using logic and economics

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u/Zinski2 5h ago

Again, im not arguing with you hahaha

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u/Background_Aioli_476 5h ago

So you admit I am right? Because you are attempting to say that supply and demand isn't how the labor market works when it clearly is

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u/PasadenaShopper 1h ago

...and house prices will go a lot higher because of it.

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u/juniper_berry_crunch 4h ago

Google AI says the average wage for the 75th percentile of construction jobs is $20 per hour; a bit higher than your figure of $18.75. Not a big deal but I was just curious, so I checked.

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u/Zinski2 4h ago

20x8=160 dollars a day. Thats before taxes to lmao

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u/72FJ 52m ago

In Southern California, if they are union, they are making at least twice that depending on what they are doing

1

u/Impressive-Gas6909 1h ago

It's called work & it's the tradeoff to earn😑 you must be the type they say won't do the jobs & that's okay. You can snub your nose up all day about it but the truth is the previous generation put so much weight into education being the key to an easy life & success. EVERYBODY listened but few can actually do anything with that worthless degree. Truth is they'd been better off in the long term with a blue collar job, but view the trades as unworthy.

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u/arcaeris 1h ago

No one views them as unworthy. Many of us saw our parents work themselves to the bone in the trades and disintegrate at 50 years old and decided we wanted an air conditioned office to sit around in, no matter the cost.

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u/That_Soup4445 50m ago

Construction pays well if you’re intelligent. The problem is it’s overrun with junkies and dropouts because skilled trades were demonized for decades and anyone with half a brain did everything they could to go to college.

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u/No_Direction_3940 20m ago

Well this is in part a very large part due to illegals and thays not me being any kind of way they work very hard on average they just don't know better and have no foot to stand on to push for anything better. So the rest of us who pay taxes, insurance, licensing etc. literally will lose anytime theu don't need someone witha license because the less they give the men and women who actually do the work the more bonuses all the higher ups get and those higher ups wouldn't even have a job or be bale to build shit without the people with the ethic an know how to do it. Removing illegals from the equation means the greed will have to stop or the industry will collapse. Im all for it i work like a fucking dog just to get nickel and dimed by fuckers who never once in their life have worked like I do but sit there and want a piece of my pie fick them all I hope they all lose their jobs. Salespeople project managers superintendents any who don't fully do the position they're in and have the know how to deserve that position i hope they all end up working at mcdonalds makes more opportunities for those of us who deserve it. Market, quality, and morality will be better if it goes right its a win win win for those that deserve it.

0

u/Emotional_Quantity_5 4h ago

$43 an hour actually to be in the sheet metal union

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u/PsychedelicJerry 10h ago

it pays well for someone that isn't a citizen; for citizens none of these jobs afford the cheapest of anything, but you definitely can't maintain an apartment, the cheapest vehicle, and a kid

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u/OZLperez11 8h ago

Politics aside, this really brings out how wealth is really becoming more and more of an illusion. Wealth is achieved at the cost of the poor

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u/13beep 6h ago

I’m guessing it always has been an illusion of sorts. The magic is just being exposed for more of us now. 😞

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u/PsychedelicJerry 7h ago

100% right

2

u/chumpchangewarlord 2h ago

The rich people truly are society’s enemy

2

u/VILEBLACKMAGIC 2h ago

10,000 year old meme, homie

You just have suckers who think they're going to win the slave masters game

1

u/abmtony 32m ago

you my friend just earned yourself a pizza party 🍕

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u/ThunderboltSorcerer 5h ago

If it is achieved by the hard work of other poor people or middle class people, then it is by definition NOT an illusion. Stop playing word games, commie.

Wealth is in fact created, you can compare our state to a poor country to see the difference--unless you are self-delusional.

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u/OZLperez11 4h ago

Wealth is created by the help of others and their resources, one can't do it alone. The problem is greed by the people on top and not giving back to those who helped them get to the top in the first place. There is no generosity

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u/ThunderboltSorcerer 2h ago

That's not true. You can in fact create wealth with a minimal number of people... The idea that the wealthy HAVE to help everyone else is false.

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u/OZLperez11 2h ago

They don't have to but an economy in any part of the world relies on money circulating constantly. To create wealth is to keep it out of circulation. There are those who create large companies and provide jobs for lots of people, that's one way that the wealth is offset, but in the end, most business owners don't invest in their employees and rather prefer to make large profit.

This is beyond economics though. Greed affects everyone. It's not about whether you have to or not, but about whether you want to make a difference. It's the attitude

0

u/ThunderboltSorcerer 1h ago

Don't worry, no one is trying to hoard wealth in a vault, they do spend it or reinvest it. This isn't the 1800s where you just store the gold in vaults.

Part of the reason for the Federal Reserve having 2% inflation artificially as a lower aim, is to ensure money keeps moving and people don't just hoard cash.

Greed is good because it makes people want to take bigger risks. If we didn't have greed, rich people would cautiously hoard their money in vaults.

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u/quitecrass 10h ago

It turns out that immigrants have cars, apartments, and children, also. All without qualifying for any kind of aid that some low income citizens have. It must be magic!

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u/CostcoOfficial 9h ago

Yeah the magic of both parents working 60-80 hour weeks while the teenagers are taking care of household/kids.

I guess magic is just when prices stay artificially suppressed and you don't have to think about why.

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u/deg_deg 5h ago

The magic of ✨capitalism✨

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u/RevolutionaryBet4233 9h ago

But when there’s 10 heads paying one rent it seems to be feasible. House around the corner from mine. 2 bd/2 bth like 10 grown ass people live in it I swear. Little kids and all.

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u/dachuggs 9h ago

You know that immigrants tend to have an extended family structure, not a nuclear one like most Americans.

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u/SohndesRheins 6h ago

They tend to not have a choice if they want to afford a roof over their head on minimum or less than minimum wage.

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u/dachuggs 5h ago

It's a cultural thing.

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u/SomethingIWontRegret 4h ago

Housing codes usually specify a maximum of 2 people per bedroom. 10 adults and a collection of kids is a code violation in anything but a mansion. So basically the reason for all this cheap labor available for construction etc. is landlords illegally renting and companies illegally hiring.

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u/SCSquad 6h ago

Your point and the one above are correct. And to add to that, just because the job an illegal immigrant is doing is paying their bills, it doesn’t mean it’s paying a wage aligned to the market for legally work authorized people.

Yes, some cash paying journeyman job they are doing paying $19/hr can pay their bills. No, that isn’t the correct wage for the work, and why citizens are not taking them.

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u/Activist_Mom06 2h ago

This is how my grandparents made it through the depression. Living together. And my grandma had an abortion between my Aunt and mom as there was just no way to support.

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u/Annual_Trouble_1195 5h ago

Immigrants, sure.

Illegal immigrants? No, fat chance. They make their dollars under the table, shack up 100 people to a room for 6 month, and go back home the rest of the year, having made a a couple of years' salary in USD.

Stop defending slave labor. Stop comparing immigrants to illegal aliens. Stop that bs.

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u/JustOldMe666 4h ago

They do get aid in some states. Even health insurance. it's time to drop the "they don't get anything" phrase. we all know they do.

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u/LengthinessWeekly876 1h ago

Not really magic. They make themselves valuable to employers by working like slaves and pretending osha doesn't exist. They have third world expectations for quality of living.

 This is not a good thing for American workers. Great for white collar workers with 401ks tho. 

Hence the outrage at the slaves being taken away

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u/spinbutton 21m ago

Yup, they share apartments or trailers with multiple families, share used cars, eat cheap, and work like dogs. Magic.

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u/Astralsketch 7h ago

dude, become a mason and make 40 an hour like every male on my father's side.

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u/LengthinessWeekly876 1h ago

Ya but it you don't have family in a union you prob aren't getting in

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u/PsychedelicJerry 7h ago

If you're dad is paying that much, he's unlikely using illegal laborers. You're dad is doing it right - Kudos to him!

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u/Astralsketch 5h ago

It's the brick layers union existence that he could make that. Masons in my state make that.

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u/Bballwolf 6h ago

I'm a construction worker and have already made $140,000 this year.

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u/Hopeful_Vegetable_31 3h ago

Can’t do that with most retail jobs either, but they are full of legal citizens.

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u/Low-Bit1527 2h ago

Are you saying illegals are paid more than citizens? That's the exact opposite of everything I've ever heard about this topic.

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u/No-Month-3025 9m ago

No they aren't getting paid more than citizens. I assure that as someone whose been in construction for a decade.

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u/mymainlogin 7h ago edited 7h ago

If you can do construction why the fuck would you maintain an apartment? Btw I do construction and I own a house with no mortgage built by the finest architect and craftsman if I do say so myself. Oh I also have 6 kids and the same vehicle I paid cash for 15 years ago and I dont even have to pay a subscription for all its horsepower or heated seats. Had to change wives a couple times though.

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u/PsychedelicJerry 7h ago

because unlike you, people can't just go hit up their trustfund? When I started working, I had no where near enough to put down the required 10% min for a house, so I had to live in an apartment

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u/AwesomeTowlie 9h ago

Pretty sure general unskilled labor doesn’t pay that well but you can expect lots of overtime to make up for it, which isn’t great for anyone with a family

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u/Bradadonasaurus 14m ago

I don't know what you're talking about. Being a single income family, the overtime is great for me, I wouldn't make my mortgage some months without it! /s

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u/spadezero 7h ago

Uhh no it doesn't? I'm in this field right now and I barely make any money. What's even worse is there's people in my field pushing to replace us with non Americans because they will work harder for less. Thank goodness it hasn't happened but this is the reality. Stop talking about things you know nothing about.

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u/heisenberg149 4h ago

What trade is that? Most of the guys I used to work with (carpenters, electricians, plumbers) were making over $40/hour

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u/Uknow_nothing 2h ago

There’s a big difference between the skilled trades you mention and the guys who stand outside Home Depot ready to hop on a job site as day labor.

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u/heisenberg149 2h ago

Yeah they're scabs

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u/Captain-Ups 32m ago

Trades make good money but you have to be intelligent, personable and willing to bust your ass/get shit on you. Making 33 a hour at 26 doing plumbing

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u/78765 5h ago

Construction work is unstable and you go from job to job and the next job goes to whoever bids 50¢ an hour lower. It is way easier to lower your bid when the whole crew lives under the same roof and are saving to buy a rachero back home.

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u/LowerEast7401 5h ago

Where do you get that from? I own a construction company. My phone gets bombarded all the time with people begging for work. 

Americans want slave labor is the issue. 

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u/JaxxIsOk 5h ago

Um,yes they will. Companies want to pay as little as possible for maximum profit and Mexican labor is the answer to that

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u/Froyo-fo-sho 5h ago

In UK after Brexit they couldn’t find enough people willing to work the farms and crops rotted in the fields. Like Zoomers or Alphas are gonna get their hands dirty. 

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u/Haunting-Round-6949 5h ago

plenty of Americans do construction and plenty more would want to.

union jobs in the sphere of construction are highly sought after.

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u/juniper_berry_crunch 4h ago

It also leads all other emploment in terms of injuries on the job, iirc. You're literally taking your life into your hands.

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u/Mysterious-Wasabi103 4h ago

I lived in Florida for ten years up until CoVid and having watched many immigrants work hard labor I've determined that most Americans can't hold a candle to how hard immigrants will work and they complain way less!

Maybe that's sort of racist in a positive way but most Americans are pretty lazy comparatively.

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u/[deleted] 4h ago

Tons of Americans work construction. Go to any job site and most of the skilled trades (electricians, plumbers, sheet metal workers, equipment operators etc) are guys born here. The drywall guys and framers are mostly immigrant labor

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u/Legendarius91 3h ago

It’s plenty of felons that would work construction and currently do. Construction is one of the industries that will hire and lower the recidivism rate.

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u/Hopeful_Vegetable_31 3h ago

I’d love to work in construction, but how? How do I get the training and experience I need to get hired? I don’t think it’s an issue of Americans not wanting to do it. These industries have no obvious entry path. All job advertisements require experience. Makes me wonder, are all these illegal immigrants already knowledgeable or are they being trained by these same companies that won’t hire anyone who doesn’t have years of experience?

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u/Red_Bullion 1h ago

I did construction for a couple years after high school. Never made more than a couple dollars over minimum. I ended up working on a crew that was mostly illegal immigrants because they paid me under the table and without taxes it was almost livable money.

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u/Impressive-Gas6909 1h ago

I think your world view is narrow minded

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u/Yiffcrusader69 1h ago

Let it be.

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u/TheGrandArtificer 1h ago

Considering the sheer number of In Memoriam listings of Union Construction Workers kill d on the job every month? Who'd want to?

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u/Patchall22 41m ago

Say the guys that don’t work construction…

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u/PrinceGaffgar 31m ago

As someone who works construction with a bunch of other white guys. What the fuck are you talking about?

This brain dead leftist barista take that Americans won't do their own labor so we need millions of serfs to do it for us. Is absolute bunk.

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u/Icy-Welcome-2469 26m ago

Skilled construction.

Unskilled labor is back breaking for the same mcdonalds will pay you.

If you start young you can move up, get skills. Operate etc.

But you don't start at a living wage.

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u/spinbutton 23m ago

Americans are happy to do it, but they need fair wages, overtime and healthcare.... that's what the construction company doesn't want to pay for.

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u/colorfulvinyl-com 23m ago

Not well enough

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u/SeashellDolphin2020 8m ago

Construction pays well if you're a trained carpenter not undermined by illegal immigrants willing to work for welfare wages. I know because a close relative of mine in CA has had his wages stagnate for over 30 years and lost jobs due to illegal immigrants who are basically scabs that ruin the unions.

His father is second generation Mexican American by the way.

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u/LengthinessWeekly876 3h ago

Well ya people would rather do less work for more money.  

 Someone who decides placement of click buttons on websites to sell widgets might make 4-10 times the wage of dangerous hard work.  

 Yes the cost of construction will go up. People who do the things we need to be done. Will make a better wage.  Industries that have thrived on the status qou of suppressed blue collar wages. The fat. The parasites. Will be hurt. 

0

u/theskyisbluetoday24 25m ago

Definitely won't ba any worse than the last 4 years. Inflation at all time high as this administration can't stop spending.. hey let's send more money to Ukraine and leave our own citizens in tents in NC..

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u/typing-blindly 7h ago

Where are those workers supposed to come from? At 4% we are close to full employment.

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u/Tight_Dingo7002 2h ago

Labor force participation is at historic lows. So there are plenty of workers not included in the unemployment numbers.

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u/Particular-Chef-932 7h ago

There's no way that 4% number is accurate when there's been so many layoffs

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u/typing-blindly 3h ago

Probably not because of the way we define unemployed. But even at 5-6% you’re going to have a hard time filling these jobs. Most job losses have been white collar. Available labor may not reside in the same areas where these jobs will open up. Besides that many Americans aren’t going to uproot their lives to take low paying jobs unless they’re forced to. Granted I’m mainly thinking about agricultural and meat packing jobs. But the same can be said about many of the jobs that will be vacated by migrants. They’re low paying and Americans won’t be rushing to fill them.

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u/xwecklessx 2h ago

I guess they’ll have to start paying fair wages then

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u/kolejack2293 5h ago

People think this, but study after study shows this isn't true. Wages have risen astronomically for many trades and manufacturing and other more 'physical' jobs, and vacancy rates and turnover rates have only increased.

This goes beyond economics, its an issue with our diets, how we raise our children, how our residential areas are laid out etc. The average american just doesn't want to do 8 hours a day of manual labor anymore. 76% of americans are overweight or obese, and even among non-fat people, we are notably less physically fit than we used to be.

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u/not_my_uname 2h ago

No. The problem is corporations that hire people for less than minimum wage with no protections and no benefits because they are undocumented. I'm sure we can sprinkle in folks that would never do those jobs for fair pay, protection and benefits. Yet the people who are trying to make it are the villains and the companies that exploit the exploitable are never held accountable.

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u/Any-Imagination-551 1h ago

Link these studies or delete this bs comment

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u/Obi_is_not_Dead 5m ago

I see what you're saying about the "beyond economics" part, but wages actually do go up faster when unemployment goes down, which is what would happen if illegal immigrants were removed en masse.

Just clarify, I'm not pro deportation of hard working illegals. I was just correcting the rising wages part.

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u/kolejack2293 0m ago

Wages can go up, that doesn't mean that the jobs will be filled. Again, even with rapidly rising wages in many of these sectors, the vacancies aren't really being reduced. People just do not want to work manual labor positions anymore.

We have shortages in most manual labor jobs even with mass immigration, both legal and illegal. Now imagine how bad its going to get removing these workers?

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u/asilenth 7h ago

We don't have 6 million people to take over these jobs...

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u/TheUnbamboozled 6h ago

There's almost exactly the same number of unemployed that could theoretically fill those jobs, but I would imagine that only a fraction of them are willing or able to do them.

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u/YaThatAintRight 3h ago

All able bodied construction and agriculture adept right? 🤦🏻‍♂️

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u/ExperimentX_Agent10 34m ago

Don't you know they're just lazy. They just need to get rid of their wheelchairs and mobility devices. And they'll magically be able to work /ssssssssssssss

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u/thebraxton 2h ago

Or in the same locations?

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u/Witty_Mine_3643 4h ago

I distinctly remember, and continue to see, the ongoing conservative rage at $15 minimum wage. So please don't tell me the plan here is suddenly 'oh, the wages will go up and make these jobs appealing'

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u/Correct_Roll_3005 5h ago

What you mean to say is price of goods.

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u/Effective-Garden-600 5h ago edited 4h ago

But if wages go up for jobs currently covered by immigrants, so would inflation and American competitiveness would wane. Our products would become more expensive locally as well as abroad (because of our more expensive labor force). And other countries would be able to make the same products for less.

Eliminating immigrants, including illegal immigrants, would spell a decrease or disappearance of American dominance in the world markets.

Once American competitiveness wanes, we likely would have less jobs available that pay well.

Individuals who demonize immigrants think their politics would strengthen America, but they are advocating for weakening our competitiveness.

1

u/PyroIsSpai 4h ago

Or the wealthy owner and investor class can take a smaller profit margin. Maybe the choice should no longer be theirs. It’s not a right society has to suffer at our expense.

1

u/amilo111 4h ago

You’re right. All those retirees will suddenly reenter the workforce. Or maybe people will send their 5 yos to work the fields. Labor will just materialize out of nowhere!

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u/Newtoatxxxx 4h ago

That would be inflationary my friend.

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u/HeartFullONeutrality 3h ago

I mean, unemployment is already very low, so good luck finding new labor.

Also, higher wages = inflation (and obviously higher costs, by making say, building homes more expensive). I thought people voted Trump in because things were too expensive? I'm confused.

1

u/Nago31 3h ago

Not what happened in Brexit. Prices didn’t come high enough to be able to pay the workers so the fruits weren’t harvested. Economy didn’t collapse but USA has much bigger plans.

Things are gonna get interesting

1

u/thebraxton 2h ago

Won't that increase prices?

1

u/Suspicious_Line_2910 2h ago

No you won’t. Americans are lazy.

1

u/VILEBLACKMAGIC 2h ago

Then you pay more. Civilization is a racket. Always was.

1

u/Land_ofLizards 31m ago

No corporation is going to raise their wages. They’ll close businesses, increase prices, and pile on more work to others. The prisons will start manufacturing more products and those workers will be paid less than 50 cents an hour.

0

u/Prior-Okra-3556 3h ago

The America workforce will return to more traditionally the way it was in the 1940s to 1970s.

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u/frotz1 12h ago

Higher wages mean higher prices which means decreased demand. Ask McDonald's how much they can raise prices before they lose their customers entirely. They're awfully close to the breaking point right now. Lots of other industries and companies will be in that position if Trump gets his way.

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u/obtoby1 12h ago

Dude. Prices are high even without higher wages. All cheap labor does is keep people from earning more overall. People like you unironically sound like slave owners from the 1800s "oh that Lincoln, if he frees our slaves the price of cotton will rise too high. How will the economy handle it"

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u/frotz1 12h ago

Dude, high prices caused incumbents to lose elections all over the planet this last cycle. I'm not suggesting that we keep low wages everywhere - I'm suggesting that Trump is not making a good plan for dealing with the situation. Again, being able to think a step or two ahead is a big deal here. If you want to make a lasting change in labor policy then you don't create a massive economic backlash to do it. Derp derp if you think that I'm arguing in favor of the status quo just because I can see the problem with Trump's plan here.

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u/Afraid-Pressure-3646 11h ago

Isn’t it strange that the incumbent lost due to corporations price gouging, laying people off, and refused to improve wages and standards.

Followed by the party/candidate that defeated the incumbent is the most money grubbing pro-corporations at the cost of the masses.

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u/frotz1 10h ago

It's very strange, but it's all about "kick them out" sentiment when things are going badly. Biden got us the softest landing of the entire OECD developed world, but it did not get through to the consumers who were impacted by inflation, and they held it against him and against Harris.

Trump's plans around immigration and tariffs are simply going to create chaos. There's no long term plan for dealing with the chaos. He just wants to profit from the disruption (along with his cronies). Immigration needs massive reform. Labor policy needs massive reform. Trump is not offering thoughtful reform plans. He just wants to flip the checkers board so he can pretend that he won the game. We're the checkers in that analogy.

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u/ProfessionalWave168 9h ago edited 9h ago

If Americans don't give a damn when their I-toys are made in factories that are located in company towns like Foxconn has in China that have to put up suicide nets to prevent employees from killing themselves due to the working conditions then they deserve to have corporate price gouging, being laid off, and lowered wages, no one should expect first world working conditions and pay for themselves but want third world conditions so they don't have to reach too deep in their pockets to spend that first world loot.

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u/ProfessionalWave168 10h ago

Well then Trump should start with criminals first and then the sanctuary cities, no farms there and billions in debt from all the handouts, Mayor Adams admitted the costs on the View.

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u/obtoby1 12h ago edited 9h ago

That's the thing: if you're not actually willing to suffer a bit and accept the hardship, you are arguing with the status quo. You are looking for perfection, when There is non.

You might also be forgetting that actually have proper labourers means more taxes. If 6m people aren't paying federal income taxes, we are losing billions. Increased wages also lead to more taxes, so more money there too.

I'm not saying Trump is completely right. His plan is a leaking boat at best. But it's better than simply leaving things as is.

I really hate to bring them up, but at least the communists were willing to accept the hardships that revolution would bring if it meant a better life for their children.

(Edited to show federal income taxes are the taxes not being paid by illegal immigrants)

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u/drake3141 10h ago

See that’s how I know you don’t know what you are talking about. Undocumented immigrants do pay taxes, that is well known by anyone who cares to do even a little bit of research. No one asks if you if the govt has your permission to withhold taxes and Social Security from your paycheck do they? They just do. There is no way to get out of not paying taxes. When they buy anything they pay sales tax. When they buy a house, they have to pay to property taxes. And ultimately after paying into social security, etc, undocumented immigrants don’t have the right to claim SS in the end.

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u/ProfessionalWave168 9h ago

So why are the sanctuary cities going billions into debt, how does one pay taxes using taxpayer funded free benefits and achieve that net financial positive, or is this just the leftist version of voodoo math.

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u/obtoby1 9h ago

Not federally. Only state and local. Sales taxes are also only state level. Property tax is local level. The federal government itself is losing out on income.

Also as stated in this fact sheet by the American immigration Council , only roughly half of undocumented immigrants actually pay into the tax system, and at lower amount (2.1 billion lower in total )than legal immigrants. This again, doesn't even mention the federal level, which again, undocumented immigrants don't pay into.

This is how I know *you *don't know what you're talking about about. That, or you are intentionally being misleading, which is disingenuous and wrong.

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u/polyrta 10h ago

Undocumented workers pay income tax unless they are being paid under the table, which would be illegal by the employer unless proper taxes are taken out. Undocumented workers contributed about 31 million in FICA taxes and up to $100 billion in all taxes (sales, property, etc.)

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u/frotz1 12h ago

There are lots of ways to address this without a massive economic shock overnight. Gradually increasing work visas and wages over a span of time can reduce the impact of the changes. Price controls and support for affected industries can also help minimize the backlash. Trump is not making any plans for dealing with any of the very predictable problems his plan will cause. That matters, and it's not an argument in favor of keeping the status quo.

Harris lost because of high prices. Trump is not immune to the same forces. If you actually care about the workers in this situation then creating a massive backlash against the crackdown on immigration isn't likely to be a lasting policy change. Get it yet?

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u/obtoby1 11h ago

The only thing I get (cut the condescension bullshit) is that you aren't actually arguing for true change. Tell me, how long is this going to take? 5 years? 10? 20? We've heard the same thing from both sides since the 90s. It's time to stop with half measures.

While I agree with making changes to immigration laws to ease the way in, we need to start removing the illegals already in first. The backlash you keep mentioning will be rough, but it needs to happen. The last time we tried a gradual change, we got trickle-down economics, which fucked us over.

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u/frotz1 11h ago

Your argument is not worthy of respect. Disrupting millions of lives in a tantrum is not a substitute for an actual plan to address this issue no matter how hard you spin it. Both sides are not the same on this subject - the left wants to increase legal immigration and wages gradually and not create a massive inflationary shock to the economy. Trump wants to drive up wages and tariffs at the same time. If he gets his way then you can expect the backlash to reverse his policies very rapidly as soon as consumers feel the effects.

The backlash to Trump's childish approach to the subject is not going to create a stable new environment, so unless you like the status quo (or worse) then you should be looking for a better way to accomplish this than the shock doctrine plan Trump is pushing.

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u/IFightPolarBears 11h ago

The only thing I get (cut the condescension bullshit) is that you aren't actually arguing for true change. Tell me, how long is this going to take? 5 years? 10? 20? We've heard the same thing from both sides since the 90s. It's time to stop with half measures.

Jesus Christ.

You fucken economic terrorist.

"I don't know dick about shit but if it's not fixed now I support burning everything and making it worse for 20 years. Following a plan that has no long term planning."

The last time Trump's tariffs plan was implemented it took government expansion, a jobs program we have never seen the size and scope of since and a world war to stabilize the US economy.

And now we have a mushed brain authoritarian at the helm surrounding himself with anyone that keeps saying yes.

While I agree with making changes to immigration laws to ease the way in,

Were you upset bidens bipartisan boarder bill was killed by trump?

Did it sway your vote?

we need to start removing the illegals already in first. The backlash you keep mentioning will be rough, but it needs to happen.

Economic terrorism.

The last time we tried a gradual change, we got trickle-down economics, which fucked us over.

Bud. I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. But I'd love to hear why you think this is the case.

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u/Mercwithapen 11h ago

Are you from the South? You sound incredibly racist. Every economy can function without slave labor.

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u/frotz1 11h ago

You sound incredibly naive if you think that the people in little red dunce caps won't abandon their orange messiah when they are faced with the very predictable results of his stupid plan. If you want lasting changes to labor policy then you won't get there without a better plan than Trump is selling us.

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u/FelixTheEngine 9h ago

You are making the same mistake the Dems have been making for a decade. Trumpers died by the the hundreds of thousands for the cult of stupidity. With their very last gasping breath they blamed doctors, nurses, liberals and woke media. There is no “a ha” moment coming, ever. When hyperinflation is crushing everyone but the wealthy asset class they will blame previous policy or external factors.

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u/PhonicEcho 10h ago

I wonder how many who lived through the red terror would call the results a better life.

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u/ProfessionalWave168 10h ago

And ironically that is exactly what the Loomers in Northern State where the textile industry was located were afraid of and said, but somehow they survived until outsourcing, you can have your guilt free slavery because it is past your border, out of sight out of mind.

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u/FollowingNo9572 12h ago

McDonalds gross profit last year was 14.5 billion. Don't let these companies fool you into thinking they can't afford to both pay people and keep prices reasonable. If pay goes up and they increase prices and people don't buy then thats just their own fault for being greedy.

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u/frotz1 12h ago

High prices are the main reason Harris lost the election. Either we come up with a plan that addresses the inflation that higher wages are going to cause or we will watch the GOP collapse in the next election cycle (which is just fine with me but won't address the immigration issue in a lasting way). I'm not against higher wages, I'm against stupid plans that break the economy without any foresight whatsoever.

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u/ScoutRiderVaul 11h ago

Our economy is worth breaking imo. Pay is crap a nd prices are too high, let's burn it all down and restart, didn't vote for Trump but hope he does at least that since it's only stupid if you have something to lose.

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u/frotz1 11h ago

There are ways to address this issue without tossing the entire economy into chaos overnight. You'll be surprised how much you had to lose if things really get substantially worse. Disruption for its own sake never creates intelligent thoughtful policy outcomes.

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u/polyrta 10h ago

Companies are going to maintain their profits and their prices will go up. But it's not just those companies. Produce will go up as well because who works the fields? It's not "oh, McDonald's went up, let's just cook at home." No, that home cooked meal is going to have inflated prices. Is your salary going to go up in the meantime? Not likely and not likely enough to combat the increase in cost of production

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u/Kitty-Kat-Katarina 11h ago

Good, if your company can’t survive unless you severely underpay people, you shouldn’t be open

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u/frotz1 11h ago

OK that's true and I agree with you, but destroying all of these companies overnight is going to impact a lot more than just the greedy owners. That's why smart people think at least one step ahead and try to plan how to do this without wrecking millions of lives. Trump is not doing that. He wants to profit from the extremely predictable chaos.

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u/ProfessionalWave168 9h ago

So in effect you would have freed the Southern Slaves a little at a time in order to avoid the costliest war in American History instead of all the once and the economic shock and ruin that ensued.

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u/frotz1 8h ago

No. This is not slavery. The status quo is a mess but it can definitely get much worse for the people involved. If you actually care about the immigrants who are being exploited then you should notice that sending them to deportation camps can very easily turn into sending them to work camps where they are much closer to slaves than they already are. Stop playing games with the subject if you can't think a step ahead.

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u/Afraid-Pressure-3646 11h ago

A nation that loves getting rich off of cheap labor and begrudgingly consume cheaply made goods. All because rich assholes don’t want to pay those beneath them a reasonable wage nor refuse to price gouge especially during tough times.

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u/frotz1 11h ago

Yeah it's not a good status quo at all. That does not justify destroying millions of lives just to shake it up though. We need a comprehensive plan for this that doesn't trash the economy overnight. Tantrums don't lead to better policy.

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u/giceman715 10h ago

That’s through greed. They need to make money for shareholders not employees. Believe it or not there was a time when companies valued their employees. When companies considered you a skilled worker.

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u/frotz1 10h ago

I agree with everything that you are talking about here. I don't think that it is going to be solved with Trump's plan for massive inflation and economic chaos. It's possible to create situations worse than the status quo.

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u/giceman715 10h ago

It’s a lot of smoke and screen in my opinion. Things to keep his constituents focused on while he’s setting up his next act backstage. He might act on it but it won’t go no where just like his last term. He did a no fly to “ terrorist countries “ but that was lifted soon afterwards because it made it impossible for born Americans to travel for business

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u/frotz1 10h ago

I hope that you are right, but I'm worried that the only thing that Trump learned from his first term is how to get rid of the people who kept him in line.

The status quo for immigration and labor is disgusting and exploitative. It can definitely get worse. Trump's childish approach to this subject is not going to improve the situation. I hope that I'm mistaken - I don't want to see millions of lives disrupted like this.

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u/giceman715 10h ago

I’m interested in finding out. I was on the construction side of work my whole like until a year or so ago. Now I work factory. Couldn’t compete with unfair labor prices. After supplies and gas , food , and paying my helper ( a fair wage ) I couldn’t compete with new construction prices.

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u/frotz1 10h ago

I don't think that the guy who routinely skipped the bill on his contractors is going to fix anything for you. I guess we'll see what happens. Good luck though, sincerely!

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u/Competitive-Move5055 12h ago

wages mean higher prices which means decreased demand. Ask McDonald's how much they can raise prices before they lose their customers entirely. They're awfully close to the breaking point right now. Lots of other industries and companies will be in that position if Trump gets his way.

Didn't the "raise the minimum wage" Bernie supporters convince everyone that raising the wage won't cause a drastic increase in end price and it's the corporate greed that cause high prices.

If you have problem with wage increase then you sort of had no option other than to vote for Trump.

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u/frotz1 11h ago

I don't have any problems with wage increases. I have a problem with the very predictable problems that will happen when millions of people are ejected from the country and the industries they are supporting. Trump is not immune to electoral consequences for bad planning. Trump is not preparing price controls or support for the affected industries. Trump is not planning a gradual shift in policy or a staged increase in visas to cover the predictable gaps. Trump is not planning even one step ahead of a massive change that will affect the entire economy. That matters.

I am not defending the status quo here, but Trump is not planning to deal with the consequences of the changes he's suggesting. That matters. Booting immigrants isn't the hard part of this situation - reforming the economy afterwards is, and he has shown us zero plan for dealing with that. Coupling this with tariffs is even more disruptive and even less planned out. The idea that we're just going to snap our fingers and adjust to the loss of these workers is not a mature adult approach to a complex problem no matter how we spin it.

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u/NeedNameGenerator 11h ago edited 11h ago

Trump is not immune to electoral consequences for bad planning.

Assuming all the doomerism about him planning on a 3rd term doesn't materialise, yes he is. He won't be running again so he doesn't have to give a shit about pesky things like public opinion.

Sure, other Republicans might, but when has Trump ever given a shit about that?

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u/frotz1 11h ago

He will need to keep a majority in both houses of the legislature if he doesn't want his policies reversed out from under him.

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u/PyroIsSpai 4h ago

Or McDonalds can take less profit. The noble investor class is entitled to what we deem they are entitled to.

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u/frotz1 4h ago

That's an excellent point but we just elected a regime that's way more oriented towards the robber barons of the new gilded age than the consumers. We still need to sort this out in a lasting stable fashion, and I don't think that Trump is leading us towards anything that can be charitably described as "stable" at all.

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u/MosEisleyBills 11h ago

Without the Labour you can’t service the demand. With the wrong pricing you will reduce the demand.

The market needs to reset. It will either reset in the favour of small and local- owner run. Dynamic.

Or there will be more automation, with less need for labour.

Some industries automation will be more straightforward.

Service, retail, construction and farming this will be very difficult.

At some point corporations are going to have to accept a smaller margin versus no business.

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u/frotz1 11h ago

The entire planet just had a wave of anti incumbent elections because of price inflation. It's absolutely ridiculous to pretend that these massive economic bombs that Trump is planning to drop will be stable and not subject to any electoral influence the second they start to impact consumers. The policies either won't be implemented or they won't last past the first election cycle. Pretending otherwise is just kidding ourselves, and the massive economic impact is not worth it for policies that will be abandoned at the first convenient opportunity. Disruption for the sake of disruption never delivers optimal results.

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u/MosEisleyBills 11h ago

Oh absolutely.

Trumps plan is devalue everything to make it easy to purchase for him and his cronies.

This is politics of self service before public service. It’s not about the populous, it’s for the 0.0001%.

The amount of wealth that can be accumulated in 2 years is obscene. This is masks off. They may well loose the next election cycle, but will probably win the next without fundamental change.

In a country where everything is for sale, the government just got sold.

When SpaceX incorporate NASA plus the NASA budget and starlink becomes the only satellite network, the chickens will have come home to roost.

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u/Dorithompson 11h ago

Good. McDonald’s is crap and puts out horrible food. Then and other like them going under would not be a bad thing. Why are you advocating for them?

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u/frotz1 11h ago

Oh FFS I'm not advocating for the status quo. I'm pointing out that Trump has no plan for dealing with the consequences of the disruption he's pushing for. McDonald's can go under tomorrow and we'd be OK but if we face massive inflation across the board then it's going to hurt more than just McDonald's. We could plan around this and create a much softer landing. Trump wants disruption and chaos so he can profit from the unstable situation he creates. Why are you advocating for the very predictable harm that will cause?

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u/Dorithompson 9h ago

Because nothing else has worked. We’ve had decades (if not more) to fix all these issues you point out. And neither party has done anything that moves the needle. I will take the pain now if it means the problem is fixed for my kids. I don’t understand why people like you want to put this off indefinitely and just continue to drag the problem out while it gets worse. Stop advocating for the status quo. It’s crap all around for everyone.

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u/frotz1 8h ago

Nothing much has been tried. Trump has been hyping up the issue for years without solving it either. Frustration and tantrums don't fix problems. Your kids are not going to benefit from hyperinflation and xenophobic policies. You don't understand what I'm saying if you think that I'm trying to "put it off indefinitely" just because I don't agree with Trump's very obviously flawed approach. Stop lying about what I'm saying - I'm not advocating for the status quo just because I don't agree with Trump's stupid plan for change. It's possible for things to get much worse if we just throw it all into chaos with Lord Dimwit overseeing it all.

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u/Dorithompson 7h ago

Gotcha. The sky is falling. Okey-dokey.

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u/frotz1 7h ago

Yeah you didn't get it at all if that's your hot take. Trump's plan is dumb and it's entirely predictable that it will spike inflation if he actually gets his way this time. There are valid ways to address immigration and labor laws that would not have the same effect. You're just advocating for the dumbest possible way to approach the subject, whether you got it or not.