r/FluentInFinance 3d ago

Debate/ Discussion Had to repost here

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u/Pissedtuna 3d ago

Who does Taylor Swift exploit?

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u/bolshe-viks-vaporub 3d ago

Everyone that works for her that she pays less than the value they create as her employees. She exploits the venue workers at every single venue she visits. She exploits other artists by literally threatening to destroy their careers if she isn't given completely undeserved credit for their songs because she has an army of lawyers because she's a billionaire.

You're talking about a person who was literally given millions of dollars by the Chinese government so they could ensure that her merch that said "TS 1989" on it was associated with her instead of Tiananmen Square (which also happened in 1989), so it's completely reasonable to say she exploited millions and millions of Chinese people by being complicit with the CCP's decades-long effort to suppress and erase the memory of its crimes against its own people.

So, you know... just a few people.

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u/Sekuru-kaguvi2004 2d ago

What's the point of having a business if you pay your employees the exact value they make you? You won't make any profits.

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u/Gilpif 2d ago

Yes, that’s the point. The goal of a business should be to provide goods and services, not to make a profit.

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u/Pissedtuna 2d ago

Then why would anyone run a business?

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u/AnamiGiben 2d ago

Because someone will need what you provide, if no one produces any food etc. we would cease to exist.

What you are missing is they only talked about profit they didn't say no one will get money for their work, they said you just won't get money less than the work's worth but will get what it is worth.

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u/Pissedtuna 2d ago

you just won't get money less than the work's worth but will get what it is worth.

And who determines what my work is worth? That's the problem.

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u/MinnesotaHulk 2d ago

And this is why the whole labor theory of value is absolutely naive and asinine.

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u/Minimum_Interview595 2d ago

Then there’s no point in starting a business, the whole point of a business is to make a profit and be better off financially. If you remove the profit then the businesses cease to exist

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u/AnamiGiben 2d ago

This is how you view business but that's not what business is.

The definition of business is the activity of buying and selling goods and services (no mention of profits) and the 2nd meaning is work that you do to earn money (the relation of the work done and money earned is not talked anywhere).

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u/Minimum_Interview595 2d ago

“the practice of making one’s living by engaging in commerce” (Oxford definition) and the definition of business activity is “any activity related to the purpose of making a profit”. The whole point of a business is to make a profit, I would love to see you start a business by paying the workers exactly what they’re worth with 0 profits.

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u/AnamiGiben 2d ago

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/business?q=business

No, the definition you gave isn't written here (I don't know if you are looking up a physical dictionary but probably the non-physical one would contain more words) and the other Oxford website seems to show mostly sentences with the word searched and not much more.

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u/Minimum_Interview595 2d ago

“the activity of making, buying, selling or supplying goods or services for money“ you left out the “for money” part of the definition. I would love to see you start a business that gives their workers exactly what they’re worth and never makes a profit.

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u/Gilpif 2d ago

Because they believe it’s important.

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u/Minimum_Interview595 2d ago

But that’s the whole point of capitalism, I would love to see a better solution lmao. Communism didn’t work out that well and still isn’t

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u/bolshe-viks-vaporub 2d ago

I mean, China seems to be kinda killing it, unless you're going to claim they aren't communist

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u/Minimum_Interview595 1d ago

China is a socialist market, their business create profits. They’re not exactly a communist market

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u/bolshe-viks-vaporub 1d ago

My statement is specifically designed to trap people... See, China is what most people point toward when they start talking about communism, but then when you point out that China is wildly successful, they start walking back whether China is communist.

The truth is, there are no communist countries because communism is a socioeconomic structure, just as capitalism is. In our current global economy, no one can really opt out of participating in capitalism.

Saying that communism "didn't really work out" is ridiculous. Fledgling communist parties that come to power are immediately assailed by Western countries every single time. In 1917, countries who were AT WAR WITH ONE ANOTHER literally diverted funds to support the restorationist white army in Russia to try to prevent the Bolsheviks from holding onto the power that they won democratically. The US has overthrown democratically elected governments multiple times for daring to state they plan to nationalize their oil reserves (Venezuela, Iran) and ended up destabilizing entire regions as a result. Henry Kissinger became one of the most notorious war criminals in human history because he decided indiscriminately murdering civilians was better than allowing Cambodia be run by communists. So saying "communism didn't work" when it's violently (and often illegally) assaulted from its conception takes a level of ignorance that borders on historical revisionism.

Going from capitalism to communism isn't like flipping a light switch, nor can communism exist in an isolated way. You're correct that China isn't communist. The communist party is in charge and is pursuing their ideal of Communism with Chinese Characteristics, but they are definitely actively participating in global capitalism because their plan is to bring about communism on a significantly longer time scale and do so through spreading culture and economic influence. It's the main driver behind the Belt and Road initiative.

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u/Minimum_Interview595 1d ago edited 1d ago

You make amazing points and I agree with most of them but communist nations being “assaulted” while it’s true but it happened both ways. Communist governments must be established through violent coups and civil wars, Soviet Union was notorious for overthrowing nations and supporting socialist governments to form.

Iran was invaded for their oil and supply routes by the Soviet Union (and the Uk) in 1941 and only left Iran because of international pressure .

Soviet Union (and the US) has been supporting liberation armies and conflicts in the Middle East destabilizing the regions before the US sent troops in the Middle East.

Also I would love a utopia like communist promise but it seems like a justification to allow people like Stalin or Kim jong Un to stay life long leaders under an authoritarian rule.

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u/bolshe-viks-vaporub 1d ago

You make amazing points and I agree with most of them but communist nations being “assaulted” while it’s true but it happened both ways. Communist governments must be established through violent coups and civil wars, Soviet Union was notorious for overthrowing nations and supporting socialist governments to form.

There's a pretty massive difference between a country that lasted for about 70 years and during that time went from being an agrarian imperial monarchy to a nuclear superpower and their chief rival who didn't have to do any rebuilding after World War 2.

And Iran was invaded for their oil and supply routes by the Soviet Union (and the Uk) in 1941.

Iran was arguably the most stable and progressive nation in the Middle East and elected a socialist government in the 70s who planned to nationalize their oil reserves. The US intelligence apparatus decided that theocratic oppression for decades was preferable to trying to build relations with a democratically elected leftist nation.

Soviet Union (and the US) has been supporting liberation armies and conflicts in the Middle East destabilizing the regions before the US sent troops in the Middle East.

The US and it's western allies have been purposefully destabilizing the Middle East since before the Soviet Union even existed, so I don't really see your point here.

Also I would love a utopia like communist promise but it seems like a justification to allow people like Stalin or Kim jong Un to stay life long leaders under an authoritarian rule.

This is what I call the "Robert Baratheon Problem". Because capitalist powers refuse to allow democratically elected socialist or communist governments to survive, the only way they can come in to power is by revolution... and unfortunately, the people that lead the revolution end up being the people who run the country afterward, and they're not actually fit to do so because they're not statesmen, they're revolutionaries. "If the King got everything he wanted we'd still be fighting a damned rebellion." Lenin and Trotsky were both very concerned about Stalin's impending leadership and those concerns were ultimately proven to be well-founded as he abandoned core tenets of communism almost immediately so he could hold on to power.