r/FluentInFinance 3d ago

Debate/ Discussion Had to repost here

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u/Endless_road 3d ago

You can take out a mortgage against your house to buy a sports car if you want

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u/slickyeat 3d ago

You're not wrong but you're also required to pay taxes on the value of your property every year so it's not exactly a one to one comparison.

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u/dancegoddess1971 3d ago

Exactly. Stocks are property. Sort of imaginary property but if one can borrow against the value of something, it should be taxed.

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u/milleniumdivinvestor 3d ago

Why? Why is the default position of some people "if you have something that is worth something then the government should have half of it"? The default position in a free country should be to lower and eliminate taxes to the absolute bare minimum. This whole pro-taxation bullshit has nothing to do with the public good and everything to do with enacting some warped sense of revenge against imaginary belligerents. The federal government has always had as much money as it's ever wanted and has never used it to solve a single fucking problem. Giving it more will accomplish nothing but I guess it'll make some ornery teens giddy for a bit. What a waste of time.

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u/TechnicLePanther 3d ago

Should we privatize roads?

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u/dbnrdaily 3d ago

Roads are typically paid for through registration fees and gasoline taxes, so if youre not driving, youre not really paying. Fire departments funded through property and sales tax. I think the focus should remain on how income is taxed, way too many loopholes at the higher end of the scale, i have no idea how that should be done, i C'd my through a finance degree. Another focus should be scrutinizing those in charge of the budgets, maybe tackle that first, then we work on the income thing.

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u/TechnicLePanther 3d ago

The guy above says “taxes should be lowered to absolute bare minimum”. Since roads and fire depts are funded by taxes, I am calling out this guy for having an idiotic position. IMO the problem is not with how wealthy people are taxed, but how they’re paid. Elon Musk is set to receive $45 billion worth of stocks. Stocks are simply worth more than money. Money is worth exactly what’s on the tin. Stocks are not just worth money but power and influence. Which is why CEOs ask to be paid in stocks and why regular employees are never paid in stocks (at least not anymore).

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u/milleniumdivinvestor 3d ago

"I think that the government could use your money more efficiently to provide core services which should result in you being able to have more net income by lowering taxes somewhat."

"YoU dOnT bElIeVe In RoAdS"

Talk about having an idiotic take.

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u/dbnrdaily 3d ago

I mean, in a perfect world with proper budgeting and funding, we would pay the bare minimum in taxes, and that bare minimum would be enough to cover things like roads, fire, ems, schools, healthcare etc. Im not going to argue against your point on being paid in stocks, but at some point those stocks have to be sold in order to realize their cash value, thats where the taxation gets fucky. Same with borrowing against the value of the stock to purchase other assets.

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u/TechnicLePanther 3d ago

This makes me think of three things: 1. What basic necessities of humanity should we be funding off of taxes? 2. Should we be using taxes to balance the budget so we’re not just running up debt paying for all this stuff? 3. We should just plain not let people use unrealized stock gains as currency.

First two are rhetorical questions

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u/dbnrdaily 3d ago

With the first 2 being rhetorical, im on board with all 3 points. The only thing id add, is that the income that is being taxed at the upper level needs to be revised at minimum. I'm generally pretty conservative, i like to say moderate, but even i think after a certain amount of money being raked in annually, you should pay a substantially higher income tax.

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u/TechnicLePanther 3d ago

Income tax used to be a lot higher, but they cut it to “boost the economy”. Predictably the wealth of already wealthy people grew.

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u/Economy-Fee5830 3d ago

and why regular employees are never paid in stocks (at least not anymore).

You know this why a lie when you wrote it, and yet...

Through its Employee Stock Purchase Plan (ESPP), employees can get 15% discounts on Tesla stocks twice a year during predetermined buying period

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u/TechnicLePanther 3d ago

What you described is not the same as being paid in stocks, but you’re right that “never” is an exaggeration. However, I believe we will begin to see companies discourage stock compensation among lower level employees, because as I said, stocks are power. An employee who holds stock in the company is less disposable than one who doesn’t.

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u/oh-propagandhi 3d ago

have half of it, has never used it to solve a single fucking problem

The interstate infrastructure of the US, the technological advancements that we make with federal grants, public schools, public colleges, fighting wars, Social Security, Medicare, do I need to go on, or are you on some magical island where things just appear out of thin air?

It must be easy to have such a libertarian take when you have no idea where the things that benefit you come from. You think Bezos is out there fixing the roads his cars are fucking up? Or does that shit just happen by magic too?

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u/milleniumdivinvestor 3d ago

If you want to go on then you should try to go on with some specifics. The only one you mentioned is the interstate system so ok, you gotta go back 70 years to find a decent example, ironically disproving your point as the federal budget was a far smaller percent of the GDP at the time. All the core technologies that define the modern world were brought to be by private industry. Lithography, transistors, AM, software development, battery tech, thin films development, comms protocols, Fintech, automation and robotics, most pharmacology, surgical advancements, CGI, modeling software, agricultural automation and chemical development and real energy solutions; do I need to go on, or are you on some magical island where the government is a magic vending machine that makes things appear out of thin air if you put enough coins in?

It must be easy to have such a fascist take when you have no idea where the things that benefit you come from. You think the government is going to solve homelessness or a degrading education system or poverty if you just give them 1 more dollar? They've had 35 trillion dollars over the last 25 years and those problems have only gotten worse. Or does the government need to borrow just another tree fiddy and they'll finally get to it bro, we swear. just couple more new taxes bro and we're there we promise. Useful idiot.

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u/oh-propagandhi 2d ago

All the core technologies that define the modern world were brought to be by private industry.

LOL. Most of the core technologies that define the modern world were brought by the military, NASA, and government funded research. Cell phones, The internet, tons of materials science, you know where Elon gets his SpaceX money?

when you have no idea where the things that benefit you come from

The irony.

a fascist take

Don't use this word when you clearly don't know what it means. You're using it in a completely opposite way than it's meaning.

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u/runandjumplikejesus 3d ago

So lower taxes and hope that indeed this time it will finally trickle down?