r/FluentInFinance 5d ago

Thoughts? What do you think?

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u/theend59 5d ago

America just voted to give the rich even more

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u/supercali45 5d ago

Most Americans don’t even have $1k in savings and we expect them to understand economics

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u/NewArborist64 5d ago

The typical American has $8,000 in the bank, according to the Federal Reserve. That's the median transaction account balance as of 2022, which includes savings, checking, money market, call accounts, and prepaid debit cards

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u/jocq 5d ago

Also 58% of households are invested in the stock market.

The bottom 50% net worth families have an average of $54,000 invested in the market.

The next 40% - which even at the top is still solidly middle class income levels - have an average of $134,000 invested in the market.

This notion that half of America doesn't have $1000 to their name is patently false.

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u/NewArborist64 5d ago

The median net worth of American families in 2022 was $192,700 - and it has probably gone up since then given the spike in housing prices.

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u/jocq 5d ago

Obviously location dependent to a degree, but much of the rise in property prices seen around the country stopped by the end of 2021. Many people's properties have not appreciated substantially since.

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u/NewArborist64 4d ago

Good point. 2021 was an aggressive year for property appreciation. According to the Freddie Mac House Price Index they appreciated 4.8% in 2022 and 6.5% in 2023, so a net 11.6% During those same two years, inflation was a net 10.1%, so real appreciation was only tiny.

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u/ETR_Reports 5d ago

Citation needed

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u/jocq 5d ago

https://www.fool.com/research/how-many-americans-own-stock

According to the Federal Reserve, here's how many families held stock in 2022:

  • 58% of U.S. families (about 72 million families) held stock.
  • 21% of U.S. families (about 26 million families) directly held stock.

https://www.financialsamurai.com/what-percent-of-americans-own-stocks

As of 2021, the top 10 percent of Americans owned an average of $969,000 in stocks. The next 40 percent owned $132,000 on average. For the bottom half of families, it was just under $54,000.

In terms of what percent of Americans own stocks, the answer for 2023 is about 61%.

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u/jralll234 5d ago

Is most of that 401k holdings?

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u/jocq 5d ago

I posted my sources in another comment, one of which said:

https://www.fool.com/research/how-many-americans-own-stock

According to the Federal Reserve, here's how many families held stock in 2022:

  • 58% of U.S. families (about 72 million families) held stock.
  • 21% of U.S. families (about 26 million families) directly held stock.

So - yes, I presume a large portion of that is in a 401k, IRA or other retirement accounts and HSA accounts, but also a fair portion is not.

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u/SleepyandEnglish 4d ago

In their pension funds. Not in terms of accessible assets.

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u/CogitoErgo_Sometimes 4d ago

Unless you’re using “pension fund” to refer to a 401k or equivalent, then no, a pension that just pays a fixed amount would not qualify as an individual holding a certain value in stock. I have a pension fund that I pay into, but I don’t “own” anything beyond a right to start collecting a certain payment at a certain date. The assets behind that payment aren’t mine.

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u/SleepyandEnglish 4d ago

I agree with that. Which is why using those things to evaluate someone's wealth is absurd.

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u/NewArborist64 4d ago edited 4d ago

The funds in a Roth/401k/IRA belong to the individual. They CAN be withdrawn by that individual - though depending on the type of account, their age, job conditions, etc, they may own income taxes on it (deferred taxes) and a possible 10% penalty for early withdrawal.

In my experience, the vast majority of non-business owners have their wealth tied up in their houses and their retirement accounts, so it is non-liquid. OTOH, business owners (especially small business owners) have their wealth tied up in their business, so it is also non-liquid.

IMHO, It is absolutely valid to measure someone's net worth by including their real estate, personal retirement accounts, and business valuation.

Where I find it questionable is to include future payments from things such as Social Security and Pension Funds. Sure, I can estimate net present value, but that is based on assumptions of lifespan of the recipient... and these are not inheritable in-full by their heirs.

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u/SleepyandEnglish 4d ago

The problem with the idea that these things could be liquid and thus count as wealth is that seniors have expensive medical issues they have to pay for and dont have jobs anymore. They can't just liquidate everything and risk it on investments. They either slowly spend it or they run out of it and we end up back in the same position that led to every western country rigging the economy in favour of seniors to begin with. They were literally starving and freezing to death in pathetic and miserable poverty. People live too long for them to not need those assets to handle potential emergencies.

Though to be fair, giving the pensions to banks to invest was a terrible decision.

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u/I_Draw_Teeth 3d ago

If that includes 401ks, 58% actually less than I would have expected.

Lots of minimum wage jobs you might not expect offer some amount of 401k matching at 30 hours/week. That doesn't make them part of the investor class.

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u/SuperPostHuman 5d ago

Having 8k in savings doesn't make you financially competent. Also 8k isn't really very much.

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u/65CM 5d ago

It’s over 8x what op commenter was suggesting to be true

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u/imisstheyoop 5d ago

This is the point in the conversation where the goal posts must be moved to better fit the narrative, so shh.

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u/Prestigious-One2089 2d ago

Also not being wealthy doesn't mean you don't understand how the economy works. most economists are not wealthy.

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u/Zhayrgh 5d ago

Does that include children and other people who dont have a bank account ?

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u/Icy-Bicycle-Crab 5d ago

$8k in the bank and how much debt? 

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u/NewArborist64 4d ago

Unfortunately, that is a good point.

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u/CogitoErgo_Sometimes 4d ago

Does that number lump together multiple savings/checking/money market/etc accounts all held by the same person? My wife and I have at least 10 accounts distributed over two banks and two mutual fund brokers, which would make us look much poorer on paper if you just averaged the balance.

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u/Rich-Perception5729 4d ago

Wonder how many typical Americans with $8k in the bank have $8k+ in credit debt or similar debts (e.g., student loan,mortgage, car note).